UK Police want DNA for litter dropping

Chorlton, even though you are attempting to come across as knowledgeable in this area you merely are showing what you do not know rather than what you do know. The only details that have to be finalised are the technological specs and the costs, also the cost to business and what, if any, remuneration businesses can seek for having to implement the scheme.
Apart from that all the acts of law have been passed and finalised and now the only wrangling is overcertain minor subclauses that may need alteration or clarification but its done and dusted - just check your facts before you accuse others of ignorance - if youre that right wing and set against immigrants which ya obviously are - consider this - those immigrants dont need a card to get here and what householder on a low budget will ask the plasterer for his id if he is 5 times cheaper than a citizen ??

Ha ha ha go read some government websites sunshine and kick around wid the big guns after you educated !

If they are that certain the people want id cards then let the government scrap its laws and lets have a referendum - otherwise i dont accept that the people wanted the id scheme and therefore will see it as having no bearing on me - no party touted this in its manifesto ! no party asked the peoples consent !

[edit on 16-8-2007 by gobsmacked]

Originally posted by citizen smith
To Chorlton and others who stand by the ethic of "I'm not guilty of owt so I've got nowt to hide..."

How do you know who will be granted access to this permanent DNA database in the future and what purpose they will intend?

My first thought is the insurance and finance companies who will pay whatever exorbitant premium to gain access...Mortgage and life insurance premiums could skyrocket or be denied purely on the DNA-flagged potential for disease-markers found in your genetic profile.

Im sorry for the delay in replying Wolfie I missed your post

I think its on the cards that certain agencies will be allowed acces to the Database and its another sad thing to say that security will probably not be as secure as it should be but it will only take one major scandal for it to be tightened up. I personally cant see it having any effect on Mortgages or life Insurance as I dont think the DNA that is kept will be sufficient to show up serious health defects.

Past family history of bowel cancer and a marker present in your genetic makeup? "Sorry Sir/Ma'am but your job/mortgage/insurance/loan application has been turned down.."

Bowel Cancer isnt hereditary so that one is a no go but I do see your point and we must be vigilant and force that vigilance upon our MPs to enforce security.

By The Way, hows the Tooting Popular Front doing these days, brother?

Originally posted by gobsmacked
no party touted this [ID Cards] in its manifesto ! no party asked the peoples consent

It may be informative for you to read the Labour Party's 2005 manifesto on this subject. You can find it here. Just skip to pages 52 & 53.

Originally posted by gobsmacked
just check your facts before you accuse others of ignorance

I couldn't agree more...

(Sorry to butt in Chorlton...)

There is an interesting piece on how biometrics/databases can be used if they fall into the wrong hands below.

blog.wired.com...

Scary stuff-entitled "database becomes "hit list"

Of course I drank when I was below the legal drinking age.
And yes, I did get into trouble with the police, not drink related, but I never once treat the police with the total contempt with which they get treat today.

Prohibition of anything does not work, look at USA with alcohol in the 20's & 30's.
Look at current efforts to deal with drug abuse, total prohibition and total and utter failure; drug use is becoming endemic in the UK and is now entrenched in society and I don't mean smoking the odd joint of weed.

The problems with alcohol abuse in teenagers is a direct result of the breakdown of the very fabric and structure of British Society.
A complete lack of discipline at home and at school. And it's all been actively encouraged, why?

I could go on for ages about the causes and effects of this breakdown but to what use?
No-one really wants to know, it's simply a case of "let's wave a bigger stick" and "let's hand over even more control".

I honestly feel that it is a regressive move to allow The Police to draft the laws that they in turn will police. Do we also get them to act as judge and jury as well.
That is a Police State and I for one am prepared to anything that is necessary to prevent my country becoming so.

Parliament and it's elected members is there to make the laws that represent the will of UK citizens, The Police are there to enforce that law.

In fear of repeating myself, Britain is under threat from all sides.
Think why successive governments have actively worked towards bringing us to this point.

If you want to discuss the decline of Britain then start another thread and I will gladly contribute, but this thread is specifically about UK Police wanting even more powers to enforce adherence to petty crime when crimes of treasonable levels are being perpetrated.

"What happened to my green and pleasant land?"

Originally posted by gobsmacked
Chorlton, even though you are attempting to come across as knowledgeable in this area you merely are showing what you do not know rather than what you do know.

Well Im sorry I tried bowing to your superior knowledge but I couldnt find any? merely hysterical arm flapping panic.

The only details that have to be finalised are the technological specs and the costs, also the cost to business and what, if any, remuneration businesses can seek for having to implement the scheme.

What scheme is that then sir?
An ID wont be needed any more in the future than it would now except for maybe the police or for Air Travel.

Apart from that all the acts of law have been passed and finalised and now the only wrangling is overcertain minor subclauses that may need alteration or clarification but its done and dusted - just check your facts before you accuse others of ignorance

OOH Mud slinging. I love mud slinging or was that some form of wit> I missed it, sorry

if youre that right wing and set against immigrants which ya obviously are - consider this - those immigrants dont need a card to get here and what householder on a low budget will ask the plasterer for his id if he is 5 times cheaper than a citizen ??

You do make some wild assumptions dont you? I merley mentioned Immigrants as an example yet you choose to brand me right wing! Naughty boy.
You really havent the faintest idea what you are talking about do you?

Ha ha ha go read some government websites sunshine and kick around wid the big guns after you educated !

OOOHH Mud slinging again!

If they are that certain the people want id cards then let the government scrap its laws and lets have a referendum - otherwise i dont accept that the people wanted the id scheme and therefore will see it as having no bearing on me - no party touted this in its manifesto ! no party asked the peoples consent !
[edit on 16-8-2007 by gobsmacked]

Oh yes they did, you just didnt bother to read the manifesto did you?

Do you object to having a passport?
Do You object to having a driving licence?
Do you object to having a credit card?

I rest my case Mlud.

Now please present an argument and stop running around like a headless chicken

[edit on 16/8/07 by Chorlton]

Originally posted by Freeborn

"What happened to my green and pleasant land?"

Well Im sorry but at the risk of posting a one liner.... Its still Green and very pleasant were I live!!.
We still leave our door unlocked when we go out and I havent locked my cars up in my drive for many many years

The petty bickering stops now.

If you can't debate without the bickering, the thread may be closed.

Now, carry on.

In the end everything is being put in place to store innocent peoples life's on a database. The only people who are going to be on this database is the civilians and people who have committed petty crimes, don't go expecting it to help catch real criminals for one there smart enough not to actually commit a crime and second they have the money to manipulate the system any way they see fit. It doesn't take much to persuade or bribe a database technician to alter some data, it also doesn't take much to have an underpaid factory worker pump out a few hundred extra blank cards ready to be imprinted with whatever data you want. And if they want to be extra careful they will just put there own people behind the database and factory's.

No closing of this thread please, but its like this the argument for having random DNA may be a sound one when used for the idea of crime etc. bu the fact is that we do not live in an ideal world.

The simple facts are that such personal info will be used for all manner of reasons and most of them not good ones. People in this country are all rerady segregated by class, money, racial division, do we really want to give someone the means to take that even further. Like always we have the stepping stones approach, oh only the Police will have the info and no one else, in time they will be followed by insurance companies, banks, hospitals etc.

As it becomes the norm such technology will always be exploited so maybe we should be looking at the end and not the begining, that is to say lets just imagine how far this could go and then see if we think it would be a good idea.

If we let The Police manage the DNA database we'll be ok.
Then they will also be drafting laws, enforcing laws and acting as judge and jury.

We'll be ok because we know how uncorruptable our police forces are

Just think, if The Police are also draafting laws, who knows exactly who or what will constitute a petty criminal in the future?

The Police must remain apolitical.

Not wanting to bicker at all Chorlton but wasn't that a little bit "I'm allright Jack" sort of attitude. I suspect from reading quite a few of your previous posts on here and other threads that you are actually a little bit better than that

Originally posted by Freeborn
Not wanting to bicker at all Chorlton but wasn't that a little bit "I'm allright Jack" sort of attitude. I suspect from reading quite a few of your previous posts on here and other threads that you are actually a little bit better than that

Well no Im sorry if I came over like that, but that wasnt what was intended. I do get around a bit and I see no major changes in this country over the last 40 years or so.
Inner cities have always had their problems and always will. Dont get me wrong, I know what it was like, I was born in Whitechapel Hospital and lived in a 2 up 2 down terraced house in Sydney St with 4 sisters and a brother. I wprked damned hard to get out of that area and swore I would see some of the world before I died or got killed or whatever and, thanks to music and a few grey cells I did.
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I have dual nationality, British and Oz and I have visited many many countries in the world yet I still choose to live in the UK despite being able to live in Oz or the US or the EU.
I find this country and the people in it the finest people in the world. Yep I moan at politicians, speed cameras, tax and the price of petrol (and Mars Bars) but I still love it.
I also trust the level headedness and stoicism of the people in charge of the UK. Yep weve got some nutters, but we also have, despite what people say a way of doing things that, in general usualy works out to the good. Bad things will usually get peoples backs up enough to complain sufficiently (remember the Poll tax Riots?) to make those in power sit up and look.
I also believe that those people entrusted to police this country, whilst not perfect. have a right to suggest what laws might be worth trying out. They dont make the law, they enforce it and in that role they probably know what is needed.

No probs Chorlton,
I respect your opinion and agree with quite a bit of what you said, but not all of it.

I was raised on a council estate in North East England and I too have travelled a bit and now live very close to there.

I have strong opinions on the direction this country is going and have suspicions on the why's and who's are guiding it down this path.

There appears to be a programme of dumbing down which actively discourages people to question and leads people to blindly accept what authorative people have to say.

I hate the move towards disowning our history; yes we committed some deplorable acts but that was the way of the world then and if it hadn't been us then someone else would have.
We can not judge the actions of yesterday by the morals and standards of today. So let's stop apologising and start being proud of that which makes us what we are today.
But we most definately can learn from yesterday and try our utmost to ensure we do not repeat some of the less savoury deeds.

Yes, the Poll Tax Riots are the one act that I can recall where the majority of British citizens were against, however, it was still the minority that took positive action and were then villified in the media.
Such an action could not be repeated today.
How many of those people who took positive action then would be prepared to do so today? I suspect very few as all know that simply by being there they would be breaking the law and every one of them would be easily identified and arrested at some point.
Laws have been passed, and police advice was sought, that enable The Police to break up any public meeting if they, The Police see fit.
CCTV surveillance is such that every move is monitored and so no gathering would possible.
Mobile, Internet and other communications are constantly monitored. Britain has the highest level of securty forces, police etc eavesdropping in the western world.
I understand that some of these powers were granted to help fight terrorism and if it was not for the valiant efforts of our security forces more innocent British people would have been killed here in the UK.
But abuses of these powers can, and do, occur.
Only recently Terror Laws were used to break up protests against Air Pollution, hardly a security threat by any stretch of imagination.
What proportion of the UK are aware of this? Very few I suspect, allthough probably quite high amongst British ats'ers.

Britishness is being eroded. The very attributes you admire are being diluted by the day.
Political correctness handicaps the development of the majority of British citizens.
Any move towards a Meritocracy has long ceased to exist.

At what point do we say "enough is enough?"
If not soon then we may never be able to, who knows who tomorrows criminals will be?
Even 5 years ago who would have thought that smoking in a pub would be a crime?

I could ramble for hours and give example upon example to support these and other beliefs but I don't think this is the correct time or place.

I recognise that The Police may at times be able to contribute to providing solutions but I strongly believe that they should never be involved in the law making process as a matter of course and that they should remain completely separate and apolitical.

I am not some flag waving, jingoistic fascist or a left wing, socialist idealist but I will not stand quitely by and watch my country continue in the direction it is taking just to satisfy some hidden agendas.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Only recently Terror Laws were used to break up protests against Air Pollution, hardly a security threat by any stretch of imagination.

I take it you are referring to the Heathrow Protest?

The one where the protesters threatened to plant a dummy bomb in Heathrow, disrupt the airport and cause problems inside the existing terminals?

Heathrow protestors may stage "bomb hoax"

I'd say thats a fairly large security threat, wouldn't you? Especially given the current climate where any form of mass "protest" usually ends up in a massive ruck between the Police and people who went to the protest with the sole intention of creating a confrontation with them.

Peaceful protest isn't a problem. Going with the intention of battering a few Coppers and disrupting one of the busiest airports in the world, potentially having to call in the bomb squad and carry out controlled detonations is quite something else. Not quite as simple as you seem to want to make it out to be now, is it?

What proportion of the UK are aware of this? Very few I suspect, allthough probably quite high amongst British ats'ers.

Why? Is the general population thick? Can they not read?

Britishness is being eroded. The very attributes you admire are being diluted by the day.
Political correctness handicaps the development of the majority of British citizens.

Hmm. What does this mean? I'm a dyed in the wool 37 year old Englishman. I'd love to know where political correctness has handicapped my life. There is nothing I can't do now in my non-violent normal and fairly sensible lifestyle that I couldn't do 10 years ago, with the possible exception of turning a pack of hounds onto a Fox in order to rip it to pieces, imbimbing a cancer causing product in a public place and drive into the middle of London without paying, and within the past twenty years the only thing I can think of is the mandatory need to wear a seatbelt in the back of a car.

Even 5 years ago who would have thought that smoking in a pub would be a crime?

Given that the majority of the people don't smoke - is that a bad thing? Why should someone I've never met, spoken to or even seen before contribute to causing cancer in my lungs because they don't have the will power to stop slowly killing themselves?

I could ramble for hours and give example upon example to support these and other beliefs but I don't think this is the correct time or place.

Well, this thread was based on something that no clear fact or link was given for (and still hasn't been, despite three seperate requests for it) so go for it. Lets see just how bad your world is.

The way I see it is that the problems within the UK are more to do with people really not giving a toss about anyone else, and with blame and compensation culture.

Originally posted by Chorlton
I personally cant see it having any effect on Mortgages or life Insurance as I dont think the DNA that is kept will be sufficient to show up serious health defects.

DNA-sequencing technology has advanced at such a pace that even the one sample you provide for the database will contain all the information needed...Forensics can alreadyy determine a whole host of profiling characteristics such as gender, race, eye and hair colour, and when you cross-link that data to the national computerised medical-record archive (the NHS Spine) additional data that would enable finance and insurance brokerages to make more accurate assessments of risk when it comes to lending decisions

What I do find alarming is the extension of circumstances under which DNA samples are required to be given in order to compile a DNA database of every person in this green and pleasant land

Originally posted by Chorlton
By The Way, hows the Tooting Popular Front doing these days,brother?

Preparations for the republic of Tooting are going well

reply to post by neformore


I shall concede the point on Heathrow, it was an attempt to show how the terror laws COULD be abused.
In this instance the Police were quite correct to use the action they did.

reply to post by neformore


A link which should have been provided by OP
www.timesonline.co.uk...

Some links on the potential abuse of UK Terror Laws.
web.amnesty.org...
www.schneier.com...

I am not saying that The Terror Laws are wrong, quite contrary, I whole heartedly agree with them, it's just that they can potentially be abused.

Only you can answer how PCness has affected you and you assert that it hasn't. OK.
But it has affected me and quite a lot of people I know and I honestly feel that it is detrimental to British Society. My opinion.

My point about the Smoking Ban was not to argue the rights or wrongs of it, that is for another thread, but who would have foresaw how laws change.
5 years ago very few people would have thought that a carte blanche ban on smoking in pubs would be in place.

Now I assume that you are not going to deny that on occassions police have abused their power in the past.
We can make no accurate assumption what will constitute a crime 5 -10 years down the line.
Someone who has led a crime free life so far may indeed be deemed a criminal in the future.

I have no intention to go over previous statements but if you can't be bothered to (re)read my previous posts here is a summarisation:

I disagree with DNA sampling for petty crimes as I feel there is a potential for abuse.
I understand that The Police recommend this but this in itself frightens me.
Whilst Police opinion should at times be considered, I feel it is the duty of Parliament to draft laws; it is the duty of The Police to enfore said laws.

If we allow The Police to draft and enforce laws then we are heading dangerously down the road towards a Police State.
It is not inconceivable that any database could be abused for a multitude of reasons and purposes.

Surveillance technology is also developing rapidly and when integrated with computer systems and dna databases there is a massive potential for abuse.

At present, we live in an alleged free society when soon it will be possible to use this technology to predict that we are going to commit a crime before we do and take appropriate action to ensure the criminal act does not occur. Very, very dangerous especially when we don't know what will constitute a crime in the future.
Minority Report and 1984.

Our every movement, transaction and interaction is or can be monitored and recorded. Next step could be our very thoughts, how much of an invasion of privacy and personal freedom is that.
Where do we draw the line? When the Secret Police are marching up your stairs for you? And how will you react? Probably by shouting "How did YOU allow this to happen to me". Simple, because you would not say enough is enough, I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!

Let's tackle root causes and address the breakdown that is occurring in society. But not by taking away individual liberties and freedoms but asking the questions , "What are the contributing factors to this problem" and "What must WE do make these problems go away".
Is it the breakdown of the family unit, is it the namby pamby approach we take to dealing with criminals, is it the lack of discipline in the education system.
I don't know, i'm no expert, I have never professed to having any let alone all the answers.
But i'm sure that with the collective experience and knowledge available in this country we could begin to redress the situation.
But it requires brutal honesty and determination. And it requires setting an example. Waht role models do we have today?
And it will require taking some hard actions, hug a hoody, bollox!

But, do people really care?...I doubt it. As long as they can see whose being evicted from the house, what Simon has to say, did United win and ooh have I got them 6 numbers they don't really care.
Why? Because for years there has been a programme to actively discourage people to question and to think. Sheeple.
There are taught from day 1 just to be happy with what they've got, get a house, a steady job and you'll be fine. There is no more for the likes of you. They are happy with that, they know no better.
It most certainly doesn't make them bad people, quite the opposite, that they achieve so much against the odds deserves nothing but utmost respect.

Sorry about posting yet another rant, it just boils my blood when I watch the ignorance that surrounds me.
I don't know everything, far from it, but I want to and that leads to frustration.

That's my lot for today, going to the pub soon to see my marra's, play pool, drink beer, go see a band tonight and generally have a good time safe in the knowledge that they are watching my every move and that I may have to outfox them every now and then


Respect to all.

Freeborn you have hit the nail on the head, what many here seem to forget aor cannot imagine is the end game of all this. That will be the total control of every aspect of our lives public and private.

To use one example, the smoking restrictions, the Goverment and the ciggie manufacturers are quite happy to continue to make plenty of money but with no real help offered to those who smoke. Its the same with the congestion charges, you can congest and pollute as long as your willing to pay for it.

The fact of the matter is that we are allowing the Police to eventually run our society, where they make the decisions and not the elected Goverment. We have had 30 yeras of real terrorism from the IRA and others yet no such laws were ever introduced, so why now, why in a country thats supposed to be the cradle of democracy, alleged low crime rates compared to so many coutries, why all the cameras and all the control.

What is the real reason behind all this, there is a planned objective to all this but the nay sayers will not believe it till it happens. Then it will be to late, things are changing all the time but the changes a subtle so as not to arouse suspicion or objection to them.

Things have not changed have they in forty years, well how about the banking system, forty years ago you got paid weekly in your hand, the money was yours and you had control of it. Now the banks have your money and they control it, they and others apply penalties to take your money away from you.

That has been the biggest scam perpatrated on the people of the UK, again a long term plan to take the control away from you, banks and their owners leech off the rest of us, they are like a parasite bleeding us dry, that is just one example of what has happened and the fact that some one can say nothing has happened in forty years just goes to show how effective the controllers are.

I'm quite prepared to believe that there are people out there who want to do me harm and who want to curtail my civil liberties but I'm pleased to believe that they are not, by and large, the police. I'm sorry, but some of this make no sense whatever.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The fact of the matter is that we are allowing the Police to eventually run our society, where they make the decisions and not the elected Goverment.

This situation would certainly be a serious concern if it were true but it isn't. Can anyone give me a single example of a case where the police run UK society without the control of Government? If anyone can I'll be happen to listen but I can't bring a single one to mind.

We have had 30 yeras of real terrorism from the IRA and others yet no such laws were ever introduced

Hogwash. We have lived under various forms of the Prevention of Terrorism Act since 1974 in direct response initially to the activities of Irish terrorists and in the early 1970s the process of internment without trial operated in Northern Ireland.

What is the real reason behind all this, there is a planned objective to all this but the nay sayers will not believe it till it happens.

That's because we are prepared to take a realistic look at what is happening in society and recognise some of the necessary actions to address the situation. There are some who will always believe that any increase in the powers of the security forces is somehow aimed directly at them personally but I understand that you can get quite effective treatment for paranoia these days.

how about the banking system, forty years ago you got paid weekly in your hand, the money was yours and you had control of it. Now the banks have your money and they control it

This is madness. Forty years ago your money was hugely less accessible than it is today. Not only were banks only open when it suited them it was almost impossible to withdraw cash from anywhere except your personal branch. Now you can get cash from a machine anywhere in the world 24 hours a day and if you hold a credit card you don't even have to have any money to start with. If you like the idea of cash just withdraw it the day you get paid and you can even spend your entire weekend walking round town paying people in folding stuff if you like but the huge steps forward made by the personal banking sector have done nothing other than make our lives more convenient.

That has been the biggest scam perpatrated on the people of the UK...[ ]... the fact that some one can say nothing has happened in forty years just goes to show how effective the controllers are.

If you want to keep your cash in a shoe box under the bed nobody is stopping you but please let the rest of us live in our more convenient world where we have more access to money and better control over our own finances than ever before.

TT it is you who is talking hogwash, did we have people charged under the anti terrorism act during the Irish troubles as we have now for trivial offences no we did not.

And rather than focusing on the Police at the moment try to imagine what the country will be like in ten years time with DNA profiling in place, ID cards and anything else they care to foist upon us.


Banks, so just because you can use a credit card on the other side of the world thats good is it, yet you fail to mention the imoral profits the banks make the record nos of of people loosing their homes to the money lenders, the business's that have gone to the wall.

They are just a business at the end of the day but they hold so much power over our lives and the Goverment does nothing about the situation. they are ripping people off keft right and centre and if any other business was engaged in such activities you would have the fraud squad on them.

The Banck are just one institution that has so much power and the Police will be next just wait and see.