UK Police want DNA for litter dropping

Once again it is quite astonishing how many are willing to hand over their freedoms and liberty to those who want total control over us. How they easily fall for the tricks that are used to condition the weak minded into thinking its in their best interests in the long run. Well no its not, you either want to live in a free society with the minimum of rules or you want to live in a totally controlled environment.

To Chorlton and others who stand by the ethic of "I'm not guilty of owt so I've got nowt to hide..."

How do you know who will be granted access to this permanent DNA database in the future and what purpose they will intend?

My first thought is the insurance and finance companies who will pay whatever exorbitant premium to gain access...Mortgage and life insurance premiums could skyrocket or be denied purely on the DNA-flagged potential for disease-markers found in your genetic profile.

Past family history of bowel cancer and a marker present in your genetic makeup? "Sorry Sir/Ma'am but your job/mortgage/insurance/loan application has been turned down.."

...and if such organisations were to be allowed to use this information what do you suppose would prevent them from requesting it themselves before offering insurance?

The use of an incomplete police database would be of little value to them when they could just demand it from the customer.

DNA sampling is just one more step towards a Police State.
Our every move is monitored on CCTV and analysed.
Our buying habits are constantly reviewed and analysed.
Out Internet use is monitored.
Membership of any organisation is recorded.
Police are receiving increased powers to stop and search.
Dispersal orders give The OB power to move on or break up any group on the street.

CCTV already uses vocal commands to "instruct" potential offenders not to offend.
Recent reports suggest that CCTV Manufacturers believe they have enough visual evidence that they will soon be able to integrate CCTV with computer programmes which will be able to "predict" if an individual is about to commit a crime and take preventative action.
Minority Report is on your doorstep.

Tie this in with a universal DNA Database and our freedoms are non-existent. Next step it will be thought crime.

I fully understand the view that if you have committed no crime then you have nothing to be scared of but let's face it, is any of us that squeeky clean that we want our every move and action monitored, recorded, registered?
I think that those who don't fear it are the Mr Averages with little or no individuality and who live in their nice little modern estates protected by walls and security systems. Sorry for the generalisation.
The Blade Runner society is already here!

We live in an increasingly aneasathised society where we are told what to think, what to do and when.
Politicians, (and those that control them!), dictate to US what we have to do. This is the wrong way round, WE elect them to do what WE want.

We face increasing Government inteference in how we run our private lives every single day, be it smoking bans whatever. Free, don't make me laugh

Other posts have mentioned some truly horrible crimes and I agree that the perpetrators should be very severely punished but it's the self same politicians who are handing out increasingly lenient sentences who are advocating increased surveillance.
Why?
To use as an excuse to give them more control over us and subsequently less freedom.

The very fabric of British Society is being attacked on every front and it's time we stood up to be counted before it's too late.

Sorry for the rant but I genuinely believe this is just all part of some greater plan to increase "their" control over us.

NWO? I don't know if that organised but....

Whilst I hate to say it, If you arent a criminal you have nothing to fear do you?

maybe it has escaped your attention that we are soon to be forced to take ID cards. Now before I get on to the major issue with that just consider this question: When I am in someonelses country I expect to carry a passport and to produce that passport when asked to do so by the authorities of that country - I am after all a guest in that country - now what the hell do I need a passport for in my own country? I am not a guest here ! The government of this country is the servant of the people but such things as the DNA database and the ID card fundamentally alters that relationship. Now we are the servant of government we are here by their consent.

One clause in the national ID scheme states that all citizens will carry a card at the discretion of the government while the card itself remains compulsory and what that means is that to walk in the street you are required to carry that card - now if at their discression they withdraw the card you cannot go into the street. That, my friend, is what non criminals have to worry about and its the exact reason that resenntment will build to pitched battles in protest over it, because we are being treated like guests in a world fundamentally owned by equals. The fact is that effectively the government can put large sections of the population under house arrest by withdrawing the card - and do you think they will stop at criminals - they used the anti terror laws yesterday against a group protesting about air pollution !!!
If the card was in place they would have withdrawn it from all those protestors - the cards have chips which can be read at up to 10 ft away

The aristocracy and civil servants and monarchy are here by the same laws of nature and chance as you are - I bow and kneel to no-one - I carry no passport in a country that is fundamentally part shared by my family - now they will criminalise me for retaining my freedom - that is what we have to loose - they will take my freedom for trying to retain it by not accepting their passport.

It is they who must account to the people not the other way around or let there be some real political decisions be taken by ordinary people against government and for the freedom of the people

Now I am asking you - am I a citizen of this country or just a suspect - and who is it thats suspicious? Whoever it is expects me to elect them - but no - not after ID cards - we shall pull them out of power and take back ownership of the country !

[edit on 15-8-2007 by gobsmacked]

[edit on 15-8-2007 by gobsmacked]

[edit on 15-8-2007 by gobsmacked]

Originally posted by gobsmacked
what that means is that to walk in the street you are required to carry that card - now if at their discression they withdraw the card you cannot go into the street...

...The fact is that effectively the government can put large sections of the population under house arrest by withdrawing the card

You are entitled to your opinion about the benefits or threats about the proposed ID card scheme for the UK but you have to try to stick to the facts.

There is no proposed compulsion to carry the card with you at all times,

The National Identity Scheme will eventually become compulsory. This means that all UK residents over 16 will need to have an ID card. However, you will not need to carry your ID card with you.

Home Office Website

and, therefore, to "withdraw" an identity card would simply reduce its effectiveness.

I don't know where you got this suggestion from but it is unadulterated scaremongering. Even anti card campaign groups whilst happy to speculate about future plans to support their position accept that this is not true.

There are plenty of things wrong about the scheme but nonsense of this sort just damages the credibility of the arguments against them.

I never meant to imply you had to carry it all the time - but its a fact that if you have the card withdrawn you cannot legally be on the street. There will be financial costs - £2000 per infringement if the card is misused or if you cannot produce it. Also for those who have the card withdrawn they can be imprisoned or confined to their house. Go look on the website which details the exact law - I used to know where to find it when it was the home office site but I havent looked lately.

Ok so according to you its all apple pie and lashings of lemonade with the government. This according to you is a land of light and happiness and you have nothing to fear unless your a perv or a crim -
Absolute boulder dash ! the fact is they cant wait for the ID card - some prick in the civil service was urging the govt just three days ago to force it on the people quicker than expected - the point being they are getting very anxious to use the card to assist them in wipinfg out ALL opposition to politics and their idea of free trade

Now why should I carry something which is effectively a passport in my own country ?

police officer : "can i see your id card "
me "I dont have one I burnt it "
police officer "right ok well its not a passport so -on your way - have a good day sir "

bwaaahahahahaha
not a passport ! hahahahahaha and when those id cards are introduced just take me to the same picnic youre going to cuz the one i'm going to looks like a struggle against oppression

[edit on 16-8-2007 by gobsmacked]

[edit on 16-8-2007 by gobsmacked]

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Why is it that a democratically elected body, the Goverment, gives and unelected body the Police the means to denude our rights. The latest move in the Police state is that if you drop litter, dont wear a seatbelt or speed the Police want your DNA, why.

This has been asked once before on the thread but was summarily ignored.

Can we see some links on the legislation for this?

To Mr Gobsmacked
Sir, with the way you feel I suggest the recourse for you would be to move to France, OOps sorry you need and ID card there, Germany, Need one there too, Damn....you need one in practically every country in the EU.

Look wake up. The days of roses are over. The days when we only had a population of 30mill or so are gone. We have a massive population, we also have a lot of illegals now and the swarms of them that move across the EU need to be controlled.
The old days are gone. Yes I'd love to be back in the 60's when Music was real, Motorbikes were dangerous and sex wasnt.
Those days of love and flower power and good puff, but its gone. We are in an overpopulated world where crime is rife, and will get worse and there needs to be some way to check on people.
Or are you one of those people whomoans about ID cards then moans because he cant get into hospital because of all the illegals taking the beds?

You have a problem with a driving licence or a passport or a library card or a blood donor card?, do you? No. then stop being stupid and stop trying to scaremonger people into something you know absolutely nothing about.
The final details for ID cardsisnt known yet so please stop spouting on about something that isnt even finalised.
Apart from which, its quite easy to run adecent magne over the chip

Just calm down dear and stop panicking.

[edit on 16/8/07 by Chorlton]

Police cannot stop a crime - look at what happened in Germany. They won't catch anybody.
If they want DNA to stop me from littering I will throw garbage on the street on purpose, even if I never did that for many years now

Originally posted by gobsmacked
I never meant to imply you had to carry it all the time

No, you didn't imply that, you stated it outright, or have I misunderstood "that means is that to walk in the street you are required to carry that card?

There will be financial costs

There usually are if you break the law. In this case there are further costs to us individually to receive the card in the first place, (as there are for passports and driving licences), and for the community as a whole due to the set up and administration costs. Now, if you want to criticise the scheme that is an area you should be looking at.

Ok so according to you its all apple pie and lashings of lemonade with the government. This according to you is a land of light and happiness and you have nothing to fear unless your a perv or a crim

Sorry, you going to have to remind me of where I said any of that. Like I said in my original post if you want any credibility for a serious argument try to stick to the facts rather than nonsensical rhetoric.

next you'll say the windsors arent leeching the people for all they can

Actually, I've said that's exactly what they are doing many times already but I have no idea what it's got to do with this thread.


edit to clarify the last comment...

[edit on 16-8-2007 by timeless test]

Here we have the latest example of Police wishing to change the law

news.bbc.co.uk...

Surely the purpose of the Police is to enforce the law as determined by the current and previous elected governments and NOT to determine what the law is.

Please, no comments on the subject matter in the link, that's another thread in it's own right.

Once we allow The Police to determine law we are in a Police State.

So you are suggesting that the body whose responsibility it is to enforce the law should not be allowed to comment on the law.

Do you not think that as they have to deal with the law and how it operates rather more closely than anybody else they might have a very valuable input to how effective existing laws are and new ones might be?

Originally posted by Freeborn
Here we have the latest example of Police wishing to change the law
news.bbc.co.uk...

Surely the purpose of the Police is to enforce the law as determined by the current and previous elected governments and NOT to determine what the law is.

Please, no comments on the subject matter in the link, that's another thread in it's own right.
Once we allow The Police to determine law we are in a Police State.

But we have to comment on the link as you are using that as the basis for your argument.
The police as well as being a force are also people. Its quite obvious that young people are drinking to excess. They wont self control so they will be forced to and I as one would back that up.

They are the ones that have to enforce the laws, to clear up the mess left when these brainless little slags attack people and kill them or the like and as such they have just as much right as you or me to suggest what they think should be done.
Surely, as an upholder of people rights you wouldnt want the right of the people AKA the police to be able to voice their opinions? That would be totally undemocratic.

Of course the individual has a right to express an opinion and should be encouraged to, however, it should be expressed as the individuals view not as a top ranking police officer whose views maybe interpreted as representative as "The Police" view. That is when we are then in danger of Police not only enforcing the law but of drafting the law; A Police State!

It would be possible to ignore the content if wanting to but as you have commented....

The complete disregard for law officers is just another example of the complete and utter breakdown of British Society that is occuring at present.
This is being manifested in almost every aspect of our lives and as such is untolerable.
It breaks my heart to see the country I love so dearly turn in to something I have complete disgust and distain for.
I have made my views on this pretty clear on other threads on ATS threads, e.g.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't think this is the correct thread to be discussing such things, they will have to wait for another time and place.

One of the aspects of Britain that I love is my freedom, this is being eroded every day.

Back on thread, Police must stay outside of the law making process and remain apolitical as The Armed Forces are.

Did I get an answer to my question yet?

No.

I want to see the legislation and links to articles about the Police wanting DNA for litter dropping that this thread was based on.

Someone..... please?

Oh alright, here you go...

Times Online

...there is, of course no such legislation as yet, just a response to a consultation document.

(Have you broken your google or something)?

[edit on 16-8-2007 by timeless test]

Originally posted by Freeborn
The complete disregard for law officers is just another example of the complete and utter breakdown of British Society that is occuring at present.
This is being manifested in almost every aspect of our lives and as such is untolerable.
It breaks my heart to see the country I love so dearly turn in to something I have complete disgust and distain for.

Ah. Right.

So - according to your good self the country is going down the pan, and its all black and nasty and the people who are trying to make the place a bit better - albeit whilst they are tied down in red tape - make a comment and you think thats out of order.

These very same people - the ones that you are crying "Police State" about are the ones who have to go out each and every weekend and scrape someone off the floor after they have been shot or stabbed or wrapped a car around a lamp-post or just plain drunk themselves to death - but you don't think that their opinion is valid whist at the same time you talk about a lack of respect for the police.

So which is it?

A respect for law and order - in which case what they say needs to be listened to or;

A total disregard for what they have to say whilst crying "Police State"

Can't have it both ways.

Ah nefermore,
I've never professed to be any all knowing saviour of Britain who will restore Britain to her former glories(?).
I don't have all the answers and never will - however, I can not help notice what is going on around me.

I never said it's out of order for Police Officers to have opinions just that they should be reported as individuals opinions not "The Police" opinion, a subtle but very important difference.

I could never be described as a complete law abiding citizen, but i honestly feel there is a complete lack of respect, discipline and just old fashioned manners and courtesy.
I think this is due to a number of reasons which I will not go into on this thread.
If you want to discuss my thoughts and how and why Britain is "going down the pan" then please start another thread and I'm sure i'll contribute.
British Society is being attacked on all fronts and various people / organisations / groups wish to manipulate situations to further their own aims and agendas.

Two good friends of mine are Police Officers with different forces and both tell me some awful stories.

I fully accept that Police Officers are entitled to their opinions.
Police Officers are the most qualified to highlight the effects and results of social trends which are resulting in law breaking and social disruption but they absolutely should not be recommending laws.

If we allow The Police to dictate these laws why not just abolish the elected parliament, allow Military to determine matters of Foreign Policy and external security, financiers to dictate economic policy etc. Of couse not, that's dictatorship. So what's different?

The Police are there to enforce the law, (and considering the current climate they do a good job in difficult circumstances), not draft law. That is the role of Parliament.
Parliaments role is to represent us, including Police Officers as individuals, and to draft laws that represent the majority view of British citizens.

Originally posted by Freeborn

If we allow The Police to dictate these laws why not just abolish the elected parliament, allow Military to determine matters of Foreign Policy and external security, financiers to dictate economic policy etc. Of couse not, that's dictatorship. So what's different?

The Police are there to enforce the law, (and considering the current climate they do a good job in difficult circumstances), not draft law. That is the role of Parliament.
Parliaments role is to represent us, including Police Officers as individuals, and to draft laws that represent the majority view of British citizens.

But the police are out there at the sharp end and probably know better than most what might solve the problem. Ive advocated raising the drinking age for years, many people have and the police have come to the conclusion that raising the drinking age might help solve the problem.
Did I go out getting drunk when I was young YOU BETCHA, But did I go out with a knife whilst drunk and attack people? No, When I got drumk I stayed indoors and didnt go outside. Infact the badest thing I ever did before my 20th Birthday was pouring a box of soapflakes into the fountain in St Georges Terrace. Perth. WA. in the late 60's
Made a hell of a fluffy bubbly mess
However, The people who are charged with enforcing the law should have inputinto what laws are needed. Those laws should then be enforced temporarily to see if there is a reduction in the problem that the law was brought in for.If it doesnt work then bin it.
I see that the act of crushing peoples cars for driving without a licence or documents is slowly bringing down that problem?, wasnt it the police who suggested that?