Sharon admits blowing up synagoges and to creating terrorism!!

And you speak of the wall when you know what Israel really wants is Al Aqsa. Trash is nothing compared to what Israel would do. They would destroy it, and build their own temple in it's place.

I generally try to be very polite on this board because I respect everyone's opinions but I really must make an exception here and state that you have just uttered the stupidest thing I have heard in the 13 months I have been a registered user here.

1) they already do control the area and whether you admit it or not there isn't # anyone could do if israel wanted to destroy something. but you know what - they didnt. they gave a muslim group full authority over it. that's the difference. so what in the world are you talking about when you say the israelis want to destroy it???? they already do control the land and have shown their actions to be the direct opposite of what you have decided they want to do.
2) you have decided they wish to build their temple there now. this stems from your lack of knowledge of judaism. the temple will not be built by the israelis. in fact it is expressly forbidden by judaic law for anyone to EVER attempt to rebuild the temple until the coming of the messiah. the jews believe that it is not up to them to rebuild it but up to god to send the messiah to restore it. this is not an israeli government decision and will never be attemped by them.

The proof is in the actions arch. The Israelis have had territorial control over the temple mount for quite some time now and they have done nothing remotely like your theory. You have written it hypothetically and do not realize that they already do control the area. And it has not, and will not, happen the way you say it will.

JB1: Spelling correction noted.

I did not refer to "anybody", rather, I was referring to "certain individuals". I have seen some eloquent and convincing arguements on behalf of the Palestinians. However, they are few and far between.

My "rant" is simply my opinion. And it is very pertinent to the subject at hand. When you peel away the multiple layers of this onion, when you get down to the very kernel of the matter, the average person can see that it is blind hatred that is fueling this strife.

What is the original source of this hatred can be debated all day long. But the fact remains that most Palestinians, most Arabs, and many other people around the world blindly hate the Israelis/Zionists/Jews. No other topic on this message board revolving around dislocated or oppressed peoples around the work (and there are millions of them, BTW) garners so much venom. And I have to ask myself why. Why? You may not like my opinion, but that doesn't invalidate it.

Jakomo: I don't know if you are an anti-semite or not, and thats why I didn't mention you by name. If you say that you are not, than I will that on your word. However, I find many of your arguements and statements, unintentional or not, fall into a venomous anti-Israeli/Zionist/Jewish category. Maybe if you rephrased some of your arguements I would see things differently.

I am not prone to posting long-winded quotes or other various websites as "facts", because their context, autenticity or relavance can be debated all day long. Personally, I find most of them to be alot of BS. I base most of what I know about the topic on the fact that I have been there, I know many Jews, and I even know 1 or 2 Palestinians ( and 1 Lebanese person). I gave very simple facts amout land, water, economics, military strength, and so on. These facts are irrefutable, thats why I used them. The fact that the Palestinians don't control these resources doesn't mean that they can't eventually SHARE in their usage and distribution. Its also a fact that the Palestinian people are being led by a group of men who use hate and violence as a tool to obtain their goals. Now, the same can be said of the Israelis, but the basic flaw here is that the Israelis, by hook or by crook, are negotiating from a position of power.

The Palestinians may not like it, hell they will NEVER like it, but they must learn to accept their inevitable fate to deal with the Israelis from a position of weakness and do what is best for their people. The Jews have 2000 year of persecution motivating them to cling fiercly to that land. The Palestinians have roughtly 75 years worth. They are both motivated, and will not stop hating each other anytime soon. So it is time to face the music, admit defeat, cut your losses, and start re-building. I guarentee the Palestinians will get alot more international support the moment they lay down their arms and turn to the world for assistance.



[Edited on 15-1-2004 by Pyros]

Originally posted by John bull 1
I have a question Seekerof.

Why do you describe jews as in exile when they left Israel yet Palestinians are refugees and any other nationality would be said to have emigrated?

I don't ask thios as a trick question.I ask it because I know Seekerof has been doing some research on the history of the region.

[Edited on 15-1-2004 by John bull 1]

JohnBull1,
"Exile" is a long discussion and I am still awaiting more 'outside' source information on what you ask and this also being apart of the research project that is on hold currently, but I would simply say:

* Israel was an established nation by 1272 BCE (approx)
* Thats virtually 1750-1900 years before Islam was created.
* For nearly 13 and half centuries, Jewish prophets and kings spoke and ruled
* Most if or the 'vast' majority of the population of Israel was "dispersed" or exiled (history records that this was the second 'exile') from being an autonomous ruling kingdom in 70 CE. But a minority remained, despite Rome having changed the name of Israel.
* this implies that approxly 600 years before Islam was created, that those who were exiled and those that remained had yearned for the re-establishment of the once existed autonomous ruling kingdom of Israel.
* Ample evidence exists in a variety of sources that state that there was and has always existed Jews in Israel, even after the Destruction of 70 CE and the mass exiles. This runs approxly. 1800-2100 years of evidence to substantiate this. Jewish communities numbered in the forties and were mainly concentrated in and around 4 cities within "Israel."
* Two of Israel's most famous literary works were written during this time, in Israel: the Mishna, written in the 200's, and the Jerusalem Talmud.
* The 9th century records that there was a large Jewish population residing in mainly in Jerusalem and Tiberius, and areas around the vicinity(s). The Crusaders record that when they reached Jerusalem and subsequently took it, that the majority of the population was Jewish.
* The 1500's record the community of the Safed Jews.


Again, the nation's name was changed during the Roman Emporer Hadrian Era, in 135 BCE, as a subsequent result of those Jews that did stay or remained in Israel after 70 CE and the very same ones that revolted in the Bar Kochba incidents, also in 135 BCE.
Even after this occurance, Jews and Jewish communities remianed within the confines of Israel/Judea/Palestine.

One wants to really question anything: Question what the meaning of Palestine is.........
My research has found multiple meanings and the main meaning being that Israel (and Judea) had its name changed to Palestine in that Hadrian used the name of Israel's ancient enemy, the Philistines, and with the use of Latin (latinized) the name to 'Palestine.'

I don't think I answered all of your question(s), but I guess the research project will eventually uncover and address those that remain, in broader detail, hopefully.



regards
seekerof

Originally posted by THENEO
Beware those at Cassiopaea as they are so desparate to avoid the coming conflagration that they would jump in the arms of very dangerous suitors...

Could you elaborate? Who would be the suitors? It is true that they DID move to France in fear that US will be attacked, so yes they do want to live. They DO understand that the conflict will be world-wide, and no region will go unspared also (US would be the heat of the battle, true, but still). So it's interesting that they are trying to escape the inevitable. Laura knows she cannot save the lives of her children, since that'd be a false hope in light of upcoming events, and unnecessary. Life isn't important enough to save once you understand what she knows. Apparently she cherishes it enough to save it anyway, so there's service-to-self left.

So, I can see fear there. But I do wonder, what suitors do you mean they would jump in the arms of?

Pyros: " However, I find many of your arguements and statements, unintentional or not, fall into a venomous anti-Israeli/Zionist/Jewish category."

We will never come to any agreement if you see no difference between Israeli/Zionist/Jewish. The three are NOT the same. If I criticize the 2nd one I am not criticizing the other two necessarily.

"I am not prone to posting long-winded quotes or other various websites as "facts", because their context, autenticity or relavance can be debated all day long. Personally, I find most of them to be alot of BS. "

Again, we're never going to agree if you find other people's "sources" a bunch of BS. I don't reference pro-Arab sites when I can avoid it, I get stuff off the newswire (AP, Reuters, etc).

And we are HERE to debate context, authenticity and relevance. That's what this site is about.

"The fact that the Palestinians don't control these resources doesn't mean that they can eventually SHARE in their usage and distribution."

I don't understand that. If they control nothing, what do they have to share, other than what Israel allows them to have? That ain't freedom in any way shape or form. In fact you put it perfectly....

"The Jews have 2000 year of persecution motivating them to cling fiercly to that land. The Palestinians have roughtly 75 years worth."

So the Israelis ARE persecuting the Palestinians and have been for 75 years... Straight from your mouth. Persecution.

HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THE FACT THAT JEWS (NOT ISRAELIS) WERE PERSECUTED IN THE PAST ALLOW THEM TO PERSECUTE ANYBODY ELSE? EYE FOR AN EYE? Doesn't the fact that they persecute the Palestinians almost GUARANTEE that a large portion of the world's population will continue to persecute Jews?

"I guarentee the Palestinians will get alot more international support the moment they lay down their arms and turn to the world for assistance. "

? They've been turning to the world for assistance since 1967, and have received jack squat, or close to it. The US vetoes any UN resolutions and buries anything that's not pro-Israeli as much as they can.

The Palestinians feel they're on their own, and based on the world's official responses and the fact that nothing gets done, they're pretty accurate.

Jak and I have agreed on this point, and it is due time to remind people of it. Zionist does NOT = Israeli, does NOT = Jewish.

Period.

Believe me there's been plenty of members here who have said some hideous anti-semitic things. But not all of the people criticizing the activities of the State of Israel and criticizing things that the Zionist movement stood for are anti-semitic. It works both ways though. Some people fail to understand that bitching and moaning to American Jews about things "their people" are doing in Israel is asinine.

you have just uttered the stupidest thing I have heard in the 13 months I have been a registered user here.


Tell that to the Temple Mount Faithful. They seem to have the wrong idea. Maybe you should send them an e-mail explaining how and why they are wrong.


www.templemountfaithful.org...

Long Term Objectives

1. Liberating the Temple Mount from Arab (Islamic) occupation. The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque were placed on this Jewish or Biblical holy site as a specific sign of Islamic conquest and domination. The Temple Mount can never be consecrated to the Name of G-d without removing these pagan shrines. It has been suggested that they be removed, transferred to and rebuilt at Mecca.

2. Consecrating the Temple Mount to the Name of G-d so that it can become the moral and spiritual center of Israel, of the Jewish people and of the entire world according to the words of all the Hebrew prophets. It is envisioned that the consecration of the Temple Mount and the Temple itself will focus Israel on (a) fulfilling the vision and mission given at Mt. Sinai for Israel to be a chosen people separate unto G-d, a holy nation, and a nation of priests, and (b) becoming a light unto all the nations [Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 42:6] so that the Name of G-d may be revered by all nations and the Biblical way of life may be propagated throughout the world.

3. Rebuilding the Third Temple in accordance with the words of all the Hebrew prophets. This temple will be a house of prayer for the people of Israel and all nations.

However, I find many of your arguements and statements, unintentional or not, fall into a venomous anti-Israeli/Zionist/Jewish category.

Would you be as critical of comments that were supposedly anti-christian, or anti-muslim?

Arch, don't insult me by using a heretic jewish site to prove something i say wrong. Try speaking to an actual Jew familiar with some laws for once instead of listening to horse # please.

You will find that point 3

3. Rebuilding the Third Temple in accordance with the words of all the Hebrew prophets. This temple will be a house of prayer for the people of Israel and all nations.

Is clearly described in numerous Halakhic (jewish law) sources as a one way ticket to hell. As I said before they are taught to wait for the messiah to do that. Not do it on their own. I don't give a # what this site of heretics has to say because it is not correct according to the Jewish Law.

The same way I would be ignorant if I said "The views of al-qaeda represent the views of all Muslims" i find your statement that the views of that website reflect the Jewish opinion to be ignorant. As for your suggestion? I would not dignify such an absolutely incorrect and stupid website with an email. I tend not to bother with people who rewrite religions for their own purposes. If you don't want to follow your religions, fine, I can respect that. But don't try to rewrite it to fit what you want. That is precisely what that group has done.

[Edited on 1-16-2004 by Djarums]

Would you be as critical of comments that were supposedly anti-christian, or anti-muslim?

I have in the past in other threads. I will again. Its just this kind of intolerance that is fueling the fire.

The point I am trying to make is that the Israelis are not going anywhere, despite what we say, what Europe says, what the Arabs say, or what the UN says. If you were them, you would stay put as well.

They are surrounded by people who publicly and proudly proclaim that they will not be happy until the Jews are destroyed and Jerusalem is under Islamic control. Derspite this, and the years of terrorism and wars, the Israelis cautiously proffer the olive branch time and time again, only to be rebuffed. Despite the fact that the Israeli government continues to allow the Temple Mount to be controlled and administrated by Islamic religious authorities, people like Sheikh Yassin of Hamas continue to send terrorist suicide bombers to kill Israelis arbitrarily.

The Palestinians have no choices. This is an unfortunate, but very real fact. The victors always decide the fate of the losers. We did it to Germany and Japan, and we are doing to Iraq right now. The motivations, causes and original events that predicated the current Arab-Israeli conflict are all water under the bridge at this point. The Arabs must get over it, they have no other course of action.

And while the Palestinians may have legitimate political and human rights issues with the Israelis, it thier deep, ingrained hatred of Jews, fed by their own religious and political leaders, which is the ultimate roadblock to their future. Whats sad is that there is a distinct, world-wide movement of anti-semitism which makes the Palestinians believe that the world is on their side. Its been my experience that very few anti-Israeli people are at heart anti-zionist. In fact, most of the anti-Israeli people I have encountered are anti-semitic, either overtly or covertly. If you want me to believe you are anti-zionist and not anto-semitic, then make sure you use the right terms. Not all Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israelis, and not all zionists are Jews. Infact, not all zionists are Israelis and vice versa, for that matter.

I, for one, am the following:

Israeli = no
Zionist = yes
Jew = no


[Edited on 16-1-2004 by Pyros]

Why are you a Zionists?

Explain what Zionism means to you as a non-Jew and non-Israeli please.

I hope it's not just that you believe Israel should exist.I think most of us except that.

Do you believe Israel should occupy all the lands it once did in the Bible?Say in the time of King Solomon?
Do you believe in a destiny for the Jewish race?

Pyros: "And while the Palestinians may have legitimate political and human rights issues with the Israelis, it thier deep, ingrained hatred of Jews, fed by their own religious and political leaders, which is the ultimate roadblock to their future."

BS. That's your view. Is this based on some sort of census or poll or is it just you talking about what you believe? Because it's a lie. LEGITIMATE HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES would be enough for any culture to violently oppose illegal occupation of their land.

A lot of people quote the Palestinians "unreasoning hatred" for Jews and that they just want to slaughter all of them. For no reason.

First off, this is not true, since the vast majority of Palestinians just want to live in peace in their own country and determine their own futures. You know, like the REST OF THE HUMAN RACE.

Secondly, nobody does ANYTHING for no reason. If there are enraged Palestinians out there (and there are), they have a few LEGITIMATE beefs. 35 years of Occupation, illegal land grabs, 4 hour daily waits at checkpoints, snipers killing their children, bulldozers destroying their HOMES. Legitimate reasons to be enraged, not legitimate to kill innocent Israelis (I don't count IDF soldiers as innocent, fyi, if they are on palestinian land and get killed it's part of their job).

But Israel FEEDS this hatred. By far the largest contributor to anti-israeli feelings worldwide is ISRAEL.

"I, for one, am the following:

Israeli = no
Zionist = yes
Jew = no "

Er, you don't find any problem with believing in a doctrine that TOTALLY EXCLUDES you? If you're not Jewish or Israeli, a Zionist wouldn't even cross the street to spit in your hair. You're a gentile, totally irrelevent to their cause.

Please explain how you accept that.

Jako

Before I answer why I believe in Zionism, let me explain what I believe Zionism is.

The World Reference Dictionary defines Zionism as "a political movement for the establishment and support of a national homeland for Jews in Palestine, now concerned chiefly with the development of the modern state of Israel. Or, a policy or movement for Jews to return to Palestine from the Diaspora".

The Jewish Virtual Library defines Zionism as "the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1893 by Nathan Birnbaum".

As far as the Bible goes, Zionism can be simply defined as the return of the Jewish people to the land promised to the patriarchs according to Scripture. There are multiple references available within both the Old & New Testaments to support this position. Coincidentally, I believe the Bible to be the most accurate and reliable source of information about the ancient Hebrews and the lands they settled after the Exodus from Egypt. This is not a faith-based assertation, but a scientific and historical one.

Now I consider myself a Christian, and while I don't necessarily believe every word of the Bible (did you notice how I refrained from a bazillion Bible-quotes in the previous paragraph?), I do believe in one thing:

God keeps his promises.

As a Christian, then, I believe that God's promise to the Hebrews regarding the covenant and the holy land has never been broken, repealed, or nullified. Christian Zionism is a movement resulting from the Bible, mainly among Gentile Christians who share this interpretation and this vision of God being faithful to all His covenants; including the covenant He made with Abraham thousands of years ago.

I would also argue the fact that the Hebrews were the original settlers of this area, who are nationally identified with this land. After the destruction of the 2nd temple by Hadrian, the land now know as Israel was mostly barren and uninhabited, save for the holy city of Jerusalem, a lonely outpost. Prior to 1948 most people who lived there considered it an undersireable area, a combination of deserts, malaria-infested swamps, and rocky, barren hills. Only now with the return of the Diaspora and the transformation of a once desolate area into a modern, vibrant country has this once-forgotten backwater of the Middle East become worth fighting over.

The fact that I am a Gentile means nothing. Although I am not a Jew and have no plans of moving to Israel, it doesn't prevent me from believing that the Jews have a right to their own homeland, which has both historical and spiritual precidence.

I HAVE been to Israel and I HAVE met hundreds of Jews while I was there. They all knew I was a Gentile and they all treated me like I was part of the family. I think some of you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Jewish beliefs. Either that or you are listening to radicals, zealots, and racists.

While I have no desire to become a Jew, nor do I share many of their beliefs, that doesn't prevent me from trying to lead the life of a "righteous gentile", and learning to embrace that which I share in common with Jews. Does that answer your question?

When you said snipers killing children you were talking about incidents like this, right?

Guardian Unlimited

Approximately six weeks later this article appeared on HonestReporting.com

In that article it states the following.

Palestinian warriors are purposely firing from residential areas, in order to provoke Israel into responding in a way that will generate civilian causalities, and hence world sympathy for the Palestinian position.

This is not to say that the Palestinians are willfully killing their own children; but neither are they interested in preventing it. As Arafat adviser Bassam Abu Sharif told Time magazine: "If (Arafat) knows he will achieve a political point that will get him closer to independence and if that will cost him 10,000 killed, he wouldn't mind."

And then...

When the British tried to control the last Palestinian intifada, the Arab revolt of 1936-1939, entire villages were burned and more than 3,000 Palestinians were killed.

During "Black September" when Palestinians rioted in Jordan in the 1970s, King Hussein massacred 2,500 Palestinians in 10 days. Likewise, Syrian President Assad slaughtered 20,000 of his own people during civil unrest in Hama, then paved over the dead -- a toll that the Israel intifada would need 100 years to match.

I have to wonder how long it will take until people stop the mistaken thought that the citizens of Israel stroll around the land popping off machine gun rounds randomly when it suits them.

Pyros, thank you for your post. One particular part of it reflects something that I was reprimanded for saying in previous threads.

You state:

They all knew I was a Gentile and they all treated me like I was part of the family. I think some of you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Jewish beliefs. Either that or you are listening to radicals, zealots, and racists.

I've been fighting this on here for a year now. Apparently the majority of people on this forum have never met a Jew. Some of them it's understandable not to have since they don't live everywhere (I wouldn't happen to know if there are Jews in Finland for example). But the problem is they allow negative stories and ideas to construct the entire way they see and think about a huge group of people. I believe that is disgraceful behavior. Can you imagine if a person in some remote land saw a news article about the recent sexual misconduct in the church and decided that meant all catholics are pedophiles? How do you let negative things you read sum up a whole group?

In my opinion you just touched upon something that is the biggest disgrace of humanity in general including folks here. The sheer willingness with which people pass judgement on others based on heresay and the complete lack of interest they have in finding out what's true.

Deny ignorance indeed.

I'm pretty sure everyone who has posted on this thread,certainly incuding myself,except that Israel has ,today, a right to exist.

I disagree with you that Jews are the "original settlers".
Settlement in that region existed before Judaism existed.

Thankyou for your reply Pyros.It was not a trick question.It was motivated by curiousity.

Our main difference appears to be that I do not believe that God gave any land to any peoples.

Unless you believe that God actually gave more land to the Jews than that which they already occupy.

So I'll ask you a straight question.

Do you believe that God's covenent with the Jewish race gives them the land ruled over by King Solomon and that this covenent gives zionist the God given right to rule over that land?

I disagree somewhat with the supposed desire to rule over everything in the kingdom of Solomon. Solomon had actually acquired far more territory than what Israel has today.

www.keyway.ca...

www.bible.ca...

www.mideastweb.org...

Three different kinds of sites I think showing the same basic maps in the time of the kings of Israel. I think we'll all agree considering the fact that you can see some syrian cities in there that the kingdom of solomon was a hell of a lot larger than what's there today. Indeed it is not in any "zionist" intentions to "Get back Damascus".

Arch, don't insult me by using a heretic jewish site to prove something i say wrong.

If they are heretical Jews, then I won't bother posting the dozen links to Jewish sites that advocate taking the Mount now. I won't post the articles about the attempted Temple Cornerstone laying events.

Since you think these millions of Jews are Heretics why would anyone believe it when they say they want the land now?

But why not a little from Rambam?

We can now approach the primary question about the Third Temple. How will it be built? This is an issue that few people are willing to address because of obvious political implications. But, like it or not, the Third Temple is going to be built one day. So we may as well look at the question now.

There is an essential disagreement among authorities as to how the Third Temple will be built. According to the Rambam (Maimonides), in his work, the Laws of the Chosen House, (chapter one, law number one), the Jewish people are commanded to construct a House for G-d. The Rambam lists this as one of the 613 eternal commandments of the Torah, relevant and obligatory whenever the Temple is not standing. He derives this from the verse (Exodus 25:8), "And they shall make for Me a sanctuary, and I will dwell among them." According to the Rambam, the Jewish people must build the Third Temple any way they can, at any time they can accomplish the task. In the Laws of Kings, (chapter eleven, law number four), the Rambam states that the Messiah, an earthly, Jewish king, will build the Third Temple. And, in fact, he states that the only conclusive proof of the identity of the Messiah is that he will be the one to build the Temple.

www.jewishmag.com...

They have to build the temple because the only real proof of the Messiah will be that he did build the temple.

There are many interpretations of all religions. Holy books are less clear than math books. Jewish holy books are not an exception, but rather show how divided a religion can be on such an important issue.

Temple, or not.
Zionism or not.
Talmud or not
Matrilinial or Patrilinial

The long list of issues that divide Jews into various factions may not divide them as a society, but it is a powerful theological division.

It would not be correct for any of us to imply that anything applied to all Jews.

I would be correct in saying that many Israeli Jews would like to have the Mount by peaceful means if it were possible.

But we all know it is not possible.....

[Edited on 16-1-2004 by ArchAngel]

this doesn't look good.
a little gasoline for the fire.

The political situations and conflicts all over the world are truly NOT what they are made out to be by our media. Including our own conflicts with the purported "terrorists" that no one seems to be able to find. Might as well wage a war on evil and be done with it! Maybe that's Bush's next step?

The SMART "bad guys" will make themselves look GOOD for the rest of the world. It's only the stupid ones who get caught and are seen as "evil" or bad. The psychopathic ones that do succeed are never caught, and are loved by all. That lesson seems to evade most people.