It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Sharon admits blowing up synagoges and to creating terrorism!!

page: 5
0
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 03:59 PM
link   
Seeker: "No, certainly you wouldn't give a rat's arse if Israel and Jews were eradicated....that would serve alot of Human Rights organizations 'agendas' wouldn't it?"

See, you're projecting your own level of hatred on me, when it doesn't exist. See, to me I see Israel as a COUNTRY and Jews as a PEOPLE. They're not the same thing.

If I criticize Israel I am not specifically criticizing Jews (other than maybe some Jewish politicians).

But if it makes you feel better in your black and white world, then think what you'd like, even if it's unfounded. At least it's something you have plenty of practice with.

I don't criticize Israel because I hate Jews, I do it because Israel makes a lot of bad mistakes.

Of course, it doesn't help your side of the argument if you think I'm actually NOT a wacko racist scumbag, so if it's for comfort, go ahead.

But as long as we both know the truth.




posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 04:07 PM
link   
Did the land just rise up out of the sea and the Jews moved in?

No nation called Palestine?

So what?

It was arab land under the Ottomans, and other Islamic empires before that. It has been Muslim for over 1300 years other than the short period of the Crusades.

The name of the nation, or the borders do not change the fact that it was never under Jewish control for almost 2000 years, nor was there any nation on earth called Israel.

The root of the problem is Israel's racism. Point the finger at the other side as much as you want. The fact is that Israel is the most racist nation on earth. It is their hate of all others that fuels the conflict.

It is their lust for land that pushes it all forward.

And you speak of the wall when you know what Israel really wants is Al Aqsa. Trash is nothing compared to what Israel would do. They would destroy it, and build their own temple in it's place.



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 04:34 PM
link   
Here:
Answer these:

If Israel today, reined in the military and stopped all overt actions of reprisals for terrorism enacted against the Jews and the nation of Israel, would acts of terrorism against Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?

If Israel dismantled all settlements and moved behind the "Green Line" and the 'wall' was torn down, would all acts of terrorism against Jews and the nation of Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?

If Israel booted out all factions of Zionism and/or Zionist, would all acts of terrorism against Jews and the nation of Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?

If Israel did all these things, would all acts of terrorism against Jews and the nation of Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?


Please bear in mind what Arafat, and the PLO/Hamas Charters dictate and mandate the utter destruction of all Jews and Israel:
"Arafat: "We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem, Arafat declared."Peres and Beilin have already promised us half of Jerusalem. The Golan Heights have already been given away, subject to just a few details." "We will take over everything including all of Jerusalem"!

Arafat said that after the return of the Golan Heights, at least a million rich Jews will leave Israel. "All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America," he said. Arafat then revealed his plan for the Palestinian takeover of Israel:

"We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed back by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbekians and Ukranians as Jews, then we can import all kinds of Arabs to us! (Three and a half million Arabs will thus be brought to Palestine.) You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews will not want to live among us Arabs!

"I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews! We now need all the help we can get from you in our battle for a united Palestine under total Arab-Moslem domination!"

Link:
www.freeman.org...




regards
seekerof



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 04:45 PM
link   
Certainly the threat would be greatly reduced if Israel were to withdraw. It would remove the motive for the vast majority.

But there would still be those motivated by revenge. Israel has earned the hate of these people. It will not go away any time soon.

But your questions are trying to lead to the conclusion that Israel is justified.

Your statement about the desire of the destruction of Israel means nothing. Israel desires the destruction of the Palestinians. You are calling the Kettle black. Who is closer to destroying the other? Do the Palestinians have a chance to win with their resources? The statement is pure silliness and means nothing.

They are not. It is Israel who attacked first, invaded, and stole liberty from these people along with their land and their future.

If the situation were reversed I bet you would still be crying for Israel, and I would join you in your concern.



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 04:51 PM
link   
Sorry to disagree, these questions are NOT meant to "justify" Israel and its action. be assured of that...I have asked this multiple times before, and never once received a truthful answer to them. As noted by your evasive response, I would assume that your answers to the questions asked would be NO.
The questions were asked with one prophetic and factual purpose:
The acts perpetrated against Israel and Jews would NOT cease, nor would the overall Arafat/PLO/Hamas/Hezbollah, etc. agenda's to eradicate all Jews and the nation of Israel.....



regards
seekerof



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 05:07 PM
link   
When war erupted on June 5, 1967, Israel expelled the belligerent occupants from the lands they had illegally conquered and thus was in a position to claim title to the whole area vacated by the two aggressor states. Israel clearly had a superior title to that of any other claimant, since it was the only entity legitimately to survive from the 1947-48 era.


Israel never has, and never will represent the PEOPLE living in these lands. You make it sound as if this nation of imigrants had a claim to this land. All of it was owned by people, and none of them wanted to be part of Israel.

The one who lacks legitimacy is Israel. Legitimacy does not come from spin, it comes from the people. None of them give any legitimacy to Israel, so Israel has none.

Who has rightful claim? Not Israel. Beyond that it is not important. One, or another arab nation, or independant. Any way other than the occupation.


"This is the basis of Israeli administration of the entire Jerusalem area as confirmed by Knesset laws. Israel never surrendered title over the territory it occupied in 1967 to anyone else and contends that the entire area is a matter for negotiation in a possible permanent settlement of the Arab-Israeli dispute. "

Here you call it an occupation, and admit that it does not belong to Israel.

36 year 'negotiations'? .......Please.......forgive me if my eyes roll right out of my head.

"The land was never controlled by the Palestinian-Arabs either. "

It certainly was. The Ottomans may have been the Administering Empire, but local administration was carried out by local people mostly. They ruled themselves, but were subject to the empire.

There were hundreds of thousands of people living there You try to mince words confusing nationalism of today, and the way the world was before the modern age. There were people living there then who are Palestinians today.

"Still no comment on the falsehoods that started this thread?"

I looked at your proof and I believe you have debunked the Sharon interview.


I remember reading it a long time ago. I believed it was really Sharon who said those things.

It was still an Israeli who said it.

That is no better than anything said by the Palestinians.



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 05:19 PM
link   
Sorry to disagree, these questions are NOT meant to "justify" Israel and its action. be assured of that...I have asked this multiple times before, and never once received a truthful answer to them. As noted by your evasive response, I would assume that your answers to the questions asked would be NO.

Here is honesty then. Yes, arabs will attack Israel for some time to come. Revenge for the past is a powerful motive.

But not as powerful as living under those you hate.

Israel should build a wall. But it should be on land that is unquestionably theirs. Israel will have a border with the arab world(where else?). When, and where are the real questions. I say sooner the better, and where as few people have to leave their homes as possible, and where Palestinians have borders with their allies.



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 05:21 PM
link   
The acts perpetrated against Israel and Jews would NOT cease

They are even less likely to cease while Israel is occupying them, and stealing their land.

Where is Israels border, and does everyone inside that border have equal rights?


[Edited on 14-1-2004 by ArchAngel]



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 05:24 PM
link   
ARAB MOSLEM FRIDAY SERMONS.....

They were different before Israel was born.



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 05:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by Creepy
ARAB MOSLEM FRIDAY SERMONS AS TRANSLATED BY [FBIS] FOREIGN BROADCAST INFORMATION SERVICE - A U.S. Government Agency Service 09/24/02 thru 07/11/03)


you have to homestly ask yourself why they're all asking for god to detroy the enemy. why they blow themselves up. they are a beaten and oppressed people, and have little hope of victory against the sheer might of israel and it's allies. i'd probably be pissed to if someone kicked me off my land, and then kicked me off the land that i got kicked onto, and then was randomly shot at along with my, apparently even more dangerous to the enemy, wife and kids.
through deceit, thou shalt make war. is that not mossad's motto?
i am not championing the PLO, as they are also an evil organisation, but i am aware that joe average citizen on either side would love peace to come to the region, and if there were sensible, more moderate leaders on both sides, this would happen. what happened to rabin? exactly. there are forces at large that work with all their might to assure peace DOESN'T come. that would ruin the whole game for them.

[Edited on 14-1-2004 by billybob]



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 09:45 PM
link   
ArchAngel,
Forgive me for my untimely ending of my part in the current discussions earlier today. I was not keeping track of time and had a class to attend.

You commented:

"Israel never has, and never will represent the PEOPLE living in these lands. You make it sound as if this nation of imigrants had a claim to this land. All of it was owned by people, and none of them wanted to be part of Israel.

The one who lacks legitimacy is Israel. Legitimacy does not come from spin, it comes from the people. None of them give any legitimacy to Israel, so Israel has none."


And then this:

"It certainly was. The Ottomans may have been the Administering Empire, but local administration was carried out by local people mostly. They ruled themselves, but were subject to the empire.

There were hundreds of thousands of people living there You try to mince words confusing nationalism of today, and the way the world was before the modern age. There were people living there then who are Palestinians today."



My response to this would be that I would appreciate you elaborating on those comments further.
"Legitimacy" can be defined a multitude of ways and have a multitude of meanings and explanations. In such, I have never seen an accord, treaty, papers, and/or documents from the periods of:
*after the return from exile and after the Destruction of 70 C.E.
* the Herodian Period
* During the reign of Empress Eudocia
* The Persian invasion of Palestine in 614 C.E.
* Emperor Heraclius (Byzantine), I think.
* The Moslem-Arab invaders in 632 C.E.
* The Omayyads
* The Abbasid dynasty
* The Fatimids from Cairo
* During the Crusades, where the Jews helped to defend Jerusalem and Haifa
* The Kharezmians
* The Mongol hordes
* The Mamluks
* The the Ottoman Turks of 1516

...stating and showing that Palestinians-Arabs were seeded this land that still maintained continuous Jewish Presence. The name of their defeated country may have changed, and many may have went into 'exile', but some remained, thus maintaining a "continuous Jewish presence".


Sources of interest:

"Whose Land? A History of the Peoples of Palestine."
By James Parkes


"History of Palestine" and "The Last Two Thousand Years"
Both by Jacob De Haas

"History of the Romans"
By Dio Cassius

"Provinces of the Roman Empire"
By Theodor Monunsen

"Notes and Documents from the Turkish Archives"
By Bernard Lewis



regards
seekerof



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 10:14 PM
link   
"...stating and showing that Palestinians-Arabs were seeded this land that still maintained continuous Jewish Presence."

Do you have any such documents showing the land was given to Israel?

There has been a continuous arab presence also, and they have been the large majority.

The arabs are not the ones who moved in by the boatload. It was Jewish imigrants coming from around the world.

The fact is that the land was arab/muslim for more than a thousand years.

The only law that justifies the occupation is the law of the jungle.

But the past is the past. The future is what matters. I believe we share concern over the results.

For the conflict to end Israel must establish a border than their neighbors agree with.

36 years have passed since Israel had anything close to a border. That is far more than a reasonable amount of time to solve the issue.

Israel has failed. They have failed to establish peace, to end the occupation, and to establish a border.

To those who would call Israel a democracy I reply they cannot be for they have no constitution.

That would require them to define their border.....



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 10:34 PM
link   
Yes, you make statements, then when questioned, fall back on asking a "question with a question".....

The simple facts remains, despite the "boat loads" ArchAngel, there has always been a Jewish presence maintained since the Romans changed the name of Israel.
Now you want to throw in that "numbers" of population constitute "right" or "ownership"?
Thats like saying that France wasn't entitled to its own country back in WWII or that the Tibetians are not entitled to have their own nations back....
No, I have no papers, but the simple fact remains, there has always been a Jewish presence, in hopes of one ruler or another, granting them their nation back.


You comment:

"For the conflict to end Israel must establish a border than their neighbors agree with."

ArchAngel? How many times does the Palestinian's have to be offered a two-state solution? One that they will not reject, like the ones offered in 1917, 1937, 1948, and 2000?

You continue to condemn Israel's failure, evade what I am presenting, continue with the same reference and defense, and yet, like a few others, never once mention or condemn the failures perpetrated by the Palestinians.
I condemn them both, but I will not sit and watch another Jewish eradication of possible millions go uncontested or un-voiced.
You can agrue all day on the rights of Palestine and I can defend Israel, but I have never once seen Israel adopt a policy of "eradication or destruction of Palestinians" as does Arafat, the PLO/PLA, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. have adopted, maintained, and aggressively, and have aggressively sought, in regards to Jews and Israel.
Have you?

In such, even with the spawning and granting of a state of Palestine, the terrorism and acts of suicide bombers will NOT cease...period! Why? Because it won't be good enough. Because it won't fulfill the mandates and dogmatic doctrines set forth, for generations, by the leaders and terrorist organizations that oppose Israel.
Don't think so? I guess time will only tell, eh? Cause that time is soon coming again for "another" agreement placed before the Palestinians for a "two-state" solution.....will this be the fifth time ArchAngel that they reject it?



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 14-1-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 10:47 PM
link   
"You can agrue all day on the rights of Palestine and I can defend Israel, but I have never once since Israel adopt a policy of "eradication or destruction of Palestinians" as does Arafat, the PLO/PLA, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. have adopted, maintained, and aggressively, and have aggressively sought, in regards to Jews and Israel.
Have you?"

Since 1967 how many Israelies have died, and how many Palestinians? If we were to judge policies on the number of dead and injured Israel is far ahead in the game.

How many Israeli homes behind the green line have been destroyed since 1967? How many Palestinians have had their homes destroyed?

How many have had their land stolen from them?

Do the Palestinians have the same civil, and human rights as Jews in Israel?

If you look at the results it is Israel with the policy of eradication, and destruction.

The line is moving, and it is Israel pushing it forward, not the other way around as you suggest.

There will be firey words on both sides of the conflict. But what are they other than words? They do not justify killing one person, nor do they justify taking one inch of land.

I condemn them both, but I will not sit and watch another Jewish eradication of possible millions go uncontested or un-voiced.

Agreed. We only disagree on the method, and the border.

Where do you think Israel's border should be?

The green line?

Oslo?

The Wall?

The Jordan River?

The Nile to the Euphraties?



posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 10:55 PM
link   
"Don't think so? I guess time will only tell, eh? Cause that time is soon coming again for "another" agreement placed before the Palestinians for a "two-state" solution.....will this be the fifth time ArchAngel that they reject it?"

They accepted Oslo. They gave away land for Israels promise to withdraw.

Israel is still there......

Camp david was not an offer, it was attempted robbery. Israel gave themselves the Temple Mount in this so-called deal.

You know as well as I do that this is a deal breaker. That Israel was not prepared to offer anything less shows that they knew it would all fail before it even began. It was a game played for the camera's. The result put Arafat in a poor light. Is it not obvious this was the intent along with stalling the process again?

And that is what it really comes down to.

We all know it, but no one wants to say it.

Israel wants the Temple Mount for themselves.

It is not for sale or trade.



posted on Jan, 15 2004 @ 01:51 AM
link   
I have a question Seekerof.

Why do you describe jews as in exile when they left Israel yet Palestinians are refugees and any other nationality would be said to have emigrated?

I don't ask thios as a trick question.I ask it because I know Seekerof has been doing some research on the history of the region.

[Edited on 15-1-2004 by John bull 1]



posted on Jan, 15 2004 @ 08:11 AM
link   
Seeker: You're always accusing people of being evasive.

"If Israel today, reined in the military and stopped all overt actions of reprisals for terrorism enacted against the Jews and the nation of Israel, would acts of terrorism against Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?"

Yes, of course acts of terrorism would cease. The Palestinian militants protest ISRAELI OCCUPATION. Take away the Occupation and they will have to focus on living their lives in their country. You know, getting a job, being a part of an ECONOMY instead of being disenfranchised and without hope.

"If Israel dismantled all settlements and moved behind the "Green Line" and the 'wall' was torn down, would all acts of terrorism against Jews and the nation of Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?"

Yes, see above. I am sure that there would still be a handful of Palestinian extremists, but there would also be an equal amount of Israeli extremists. Nothing happens overnight, but attacks would CEASE, no doubt at all.

[i']"If Israel booted out all factions of Zionism and/or Zionist, would all acts of terrorism against Jews and the nation of Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?"

No, they would have to withdraw from the Occupied Territories, kicking out Zionists is not enough, and in itself is unnecessary.

"If Israel did all these things, would all acts of terrorism against Jews and the nation of Israel cease, be it from Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.?"

Yes, ALL acts of terrorism against Jews, by Palestinians protesting the Occupation would cease.

Of course, if Israel DOES withdraw and continues to bomb "suspected terrorist sites" in other countries (hi Syria!), then they WOULD have to deal with more terrorist activities.

Withdrawing is not enough but it's the biggest single aspect to halting terrorism against Jews in Israel and around the world. It's common sense.

But of course, if you believe that every Palestinian just wants to slaughter Jews, you're not going to buy that. BUT, your assumption is flawed. NOT every Palestinian wants to kill Jews. Some want to kill Jews that are ON THEIR LAND. Some want to kill Jews because the IDF has shot and killed their children and friends. Most don't want to kill anyone, they just want to get on with their lives.

Take away the Illegal Occupation and things get better on BOTH sides. Give the Palestinians ANY hope for the future and suicide bombings would stop. Palestinians would not sacrificie their LIVES if they believed that things are actually getting better.

Again, to me it's common sense.

jako



posted on Jan, 15 2004 @ 08:48 AM
link   
Illegal Occupation....blah blah blah.

If you wanna really bitch about some people who got screwed over and booted off their land, why don't you start a new threat about the plight of American Indians? Or maybe black South Africans? Or maybe the Shiites who live is Southern Iraq? Or maybe the Armenians butchered and brutalized by the Turks?

We all know why. It lies just under the surface of all these anti-Israeli posts that certain individuals persist in making. And whats even more outrageous is the fact that these people who make these lame accusations on behalf of the Palestinians dont even have the cahones to come right out a say what they REALLY feel about the jews...I mean Israelis......which motivates their vitriol. The fact that they hide behind a smoke screen of innacurate facts and inflammatory remarks only makes it more crystal clear what they are really feeling.

Despite whatever the maps may or may not have said 75 years ago, facts are facts. The Israelis control the land. The Israelis control the water. The Israelis control the economy. The Israelis possess the military clout. The only entity that will forcably remove the Israelis from the land they possess are the Israelis themselves. The sooner the Palestinians realize that they can begin to get on with their lives. It is only their hatred of the Jews, fed by religious fanaticism, that blinds their eyes to a better life.



posted on Jan, 15 2004 @ 08:56 AM
link   
Cohones is spelt with a "j".

Your other list of oppressed peoples is very worthy yet not the topic of this thread feel free to start another topic.

Your final rant is basically the one where anybody who criticises Israel is an anti-semite.Incidently,if you'd read the entire thread you will find that one poster defending Israel vehemently denied that this was the case or a fair and just argument.

I'm not aware that any member here is an anti-semite.Frankly they wouldn't be members very long if that were the case as racism is not tolerated here.

Please deal with the issues and refrain from these kinds of accusations.

Thankyou for your cooperation on this.



posted on Jan, 15 2004 @ 10:12 AM
link   
Pyros: "And whats even more outrageous is the fact that these people who make these lame accusations on behalf of the Palestinians dont even have the cahones to come right out a say what they REALLY feel about the jews...I mean Israelis......which motivates their vitriol. The fact that they hide behind a smoke screen of innacurate facts and inflammatory remarks only makes it more crystal clear what they are really feeling."

If I criticize US policy does that make me anti-Christian? If I criticize Ugandan policy does this make me racist toward blacks? If I criticize Jordan does this make me anti-Arab?

Your arguments are WEAK and ineffectual. I have said time and again that when I ciriticize Israeli policy I am not criticizing Jews, but you're obviously a little too thickheaded to get that.

And you don't bother to try and prove any point you might have that's pro-Israel, you just start calling people names. Like any third grader. Like any third grader who knows that their side of the argument is unwinnable.

"Despite whatever the maps may or may not have said 75 years ago, facts are facts. The Israelis control the land. The Israelis control the water. The Israelis control the economy. The Israelis possess the military clout. The only entity that will forcably remove the Israelis from the land they possess are the Israelis themselves. The sooner the Palestinians realize that they can begin to get on with their lives. It is only their hatred of the Jews, fed by religious fanaticism, that blinds their eyes to a better life. "

So you're saying that Israel controls the water, the economy and has the military clout. THEN you say Palestinians should just live their lives.

WHAT LIVES?!?! If they control none of these one of which is a basic human need) WHAT KIND OF LIVES SHOULD THEY LEAD?

You call the palestinians blind, but it's YOU who isn't putting any thought whatsoever into your arguments, and it's a little sad frankly. At least Djarums and Seeker try to prove their points, and they've actually changed my mind on a couple of issues.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join