this is a great thread, i especially liked this bit:

originally posted by ignoranceisntbliss If someone can't accept middle grounds on something as POSSIBLE, and instead it HAS to be THIS WAY (on highly complicated matters especially) then there's a certain degree of irrational biases involved regardless of what "side" you're on. In fact, the moment you decide once and for all on an issue you're setting yourself up for "confirmation biasing" (a form of self-deciet). If you blindly allign yourself to a certain social group (that has ideologies especialy) you're setting yourself up to accept shaky things as self-evident. These concepts especially relevent if you have absolutely no concept of what I'm saying here, as with most of anything to do with psychology or sociology.

always think, always question, but do so with an open mind, and be prepared for the answer, even if you dont like it.

Originally posted by xwayne

I think if those in government who apparently perpetrated 9/11 had good evidence to the contrary they would trot it out on Fox News in a heartbeat, and mercilessly ridicule Truthers without end. But they just don't have that evidence and the best they can do is release an indecipherable video of something hitting the Pentagon.

But that's just it. They could put a hurting on a great many of things, but instead they completely blow it off which fosters the conspiracy theory environment. What this does is maintain diversions from the points they cant get around, which leads to total confusion and infinite directions for theories to go. The more impossible it all is the better... that's the whole point in a diversionary disinfo+misinfo coverup.

Originally posted by earth2
There are 100million other people in america just like him. Tell me how to get through to him and make him see the truth and you will convince the world.

Yup. Stop trying to "get through" to these people, allow them to live in their reality. Try to take some comfort in the fact that you are not an average person, representative of the masses. Focus on being happy and doing what you want with your life...all the while being aware of how things (probably) are.

Negative. We've been taught to be that way, and most people have perfected it thru practice. That's whats wrong with everyone. It's time everyone unlearns / unperfects the sheepledom, and perfects taking their destinies into their own hands.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Negative. We've been taught to be that way, and most people have perfected it thru practice. That's whats wrong with everyone. It's time everyone unlearns / unperfects the sheepledom, and perfects taking their destinies into their own hands.

Agreed. However the transition is a challenge that depresses and entices you into a different mind set on the coming sunrise. You look foreward to the truth yet are on guard for the immense amount of disinfo that is now taking over disguised as "Evidence of an inside job!". The task is so daunting many will simply remain sheep rather than wade through the minefield of self doubt and internal confrontation.

Where do we go from here?

I have a problem with the number of dead. If you divide the number of dead by the number of floors it is about 14 to 15 people per floor. That's not much of an occupancy density for expensive commercial buildings.
By my calculations (number of floors X floor space) both towers should have held between 9,000 to 12,000 people in total. The official toll is about 3,000. Where are the remaining 6,000 - 9,000? I doubt that 6,000 people would have had time to flee via the fire escapes and so I reason that they were not in the buildings at all.

If 15 per floor is the real average occupation density then that might provide a reason to destroy unprofitable buildings. If the buildings were economical, where are the remaining people? Were they warned off? Surely, if 6,000 people were warned off going to work, there is at least one person with enough guts to come forward!

Something smells mighty rotten and it is not fish.

well hippi, just a thought...the first attack WAS before 9am...i usually enver went to work before that...so that could explain why the death toll was lower than it could have been.

just my .02

The distrcations have arrived here at ATS in multiples! Just trying to plod through some of these arguements is excruciating! I can understand why the overlords here getting involved. However, I've been expecting this very tactic since becoming a member a few months ago. The keepers of the information that would blow up maybe half these "theories" appear to be in no hurry to give it up.

The best defence is a good offense, so the attacks on open dialect about the many anomalies of 911 should be expected. I personally will never be dissuaded by this and will continue to search for some answers.

Others may turn away, which is their right, discusted by the way it's going to play out.

But play out it must, there is no other option for the movement as it's most radical aspects are trotted out by main steam media, and on forums such as ATS.

Your right IIB just allowing it to happen, the real conspiracy, seems lost in the sea of sensationalism of callapsing buildings and "no airplanes" claims. As Caustic says remain vigilant and we may see the fruits of our labors.

infinityoreilly

Originally posted by infinityoreilly
The distrcations have arrived here at ATS in multiples!

I'm just curous if they're on a specific multi-front campaign, or if their just making their rounds thru ATS this week in a constant campaign.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Nothing unstopable will come without clearcut actionable consensus. That was my intention here.

We'll have to make do with what we can salvage of course.

This is bigger than 9/11, and certainly far beyond piddling debates over cover letters... Sorry to have missed out so far, but I'd just like to shine a spotlight on that statement. Not a thousand words even.

People can talk about all kinds of things, but when it comes to what's wrong with our world and our country, or about 9/11, or about anything of imprtance it seems, rationality breaks down and we disssolve to bickering factions. IT's not just innate human psychology - there are people who literally do not learn, who do not listen, on both sides. This issue especially. This is socially generated. It could in fact be the ultimate weapon against the masses - like a neutron bomb that only destroys the capacity for actionable consensus - the Twin Towers a modern tower of Babel sending out shockwaves of idiocy - and we all just start babbling past each other.

Things need to change.
Real people start acting like it.
Engage brains. Turn off misconceptions. Listen but know where to draw your own lines.
Do not keep such an open mind that you become a raving idiot.
Approxomate reality, get your footing.
You are not crazy and you are not alone.
Maintain vigilance and calm.
It's a long-term struggle
Truth is a road, not a destination

Well said Caustic

So did anyone have any actual arguments against the data supporting my argument, or any relevant data to add? There was never much debate about the actual argument. If this argument is weaker or stronger than my initial assertion I'd like to understand that truth either way.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Ignorance is bliss. Good post. I personally can't get passed the pentagon cameras. If Bush wanted to prove a plane hit by releasing that footage, he could probably increase his approval ratings by 20%.

Also, could someone please take a look at the video with Guliannis voice in the OP. In the last three seconds a raging fire erupts before it collapses. Is this normal to create fire that extreme that fast without another source?

AAC

Pentagon video was not released because it would have showed the helicopter that was trying to divert/intercept the plane go down in flames as well as the AA plane that hit the pentagon. The helicopter was not successful, but the F-16s that shot down flight 93 were.

Ignorance... This is possibly the post of the year on the ATS 9/11 forum. There really is nothing for me to add to your brilliant analysis. Well done. WATS.

Originally posted by DeeMack
Pentagon video was not released because it would have showed the helicopter that was trying to divert/intercept the plane go down in flames as well as the AA plane that hit the pentagon. The helicopter was not successful, but the F-16s that shot down flight 93 were.

This is EXACTLY what this thread is all about. A prime example of the entire point of this wonderful thread!

DeeMAck brings in PURE SPECULATION, presents it as fact and further muddies the waters with a new helicopter theory.

I have to believe you did that on purpose.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Well said Caustic

Thanks - I kinda went off there thanks to O'Reilly quotig me...

So did anyone have any actual arguments against the data supporting my argument, or any relevant data to add? There was never much debate about the actual argument. If this argument is weaker or stronger than my initial assertion I'd like to understand that truth either way.

If I recall correctly, it was about the info set-up around theattacks - the odd statements, secrecy, encouragement of speculation and silly mystery...

I wouls have to add that this is to be expected over such a major event. It's partly the PTB doing things, like the NTSB releasing their wrong animation but only ver explaining two things about it - it's theirs and it's got a mislabeled timestamp. For everything elese we're on our own and collectively doing a crap job of analyzing it for "truth."

Which brings me to the poinnt of self-criticism for he movement - we don't need to fall for these traps. Case in point - Bush saw the first plane hit on TV> People take this as evidence of a persoanl presidential TV system watching the WTC in advance. More likely it's either a sloppy PR move - he wanted to look like other Americns who saw the news on the TV, and Rove or whoever just didn't bother to check if that EVER WAS ON TV at the time. This is unlikely, so perhaps an info set-up? Or he meant to say he saw a plane had hit the tower? And make that mistake twice?

Let's just keep our wits and remember there are basically infinite possible explanations for anything, not just the one that best fits your theory.

Where do we go from here? Which is the way that's clear?

Beats me.

IIB,

Great thread. And CL, you've got the gist of it--most people have not been trained to think logically, and can be led by the nose wherever you want them to go. This you have to assume is on purpose, for just such occasions.

I once took a flight and a grandmother next to me, dressed like a 12 year old in a lavender terry jogging outfit and sneaks with matching lavender laces, said it was stuffy in the cabin, could I open the window? Well this is what you're up against. Someone who could live a full life, be able to travel to Europe for vacation, but who didn't know airplane cabins were pressurized, and that it was sub-zero outside, and -- well, you get the point.

So disinfo works. It's easy to muddy the waters. Withhold evidence, expunge it, trick it after the fact, say things that may or may not be true. Get yourself a nice hall of mirrors going. Very effective, after a while it takes on a life of its own.

That's why I always come back to the root of 9/11, and the towers falling. There's the crux of it all, and thre you have simple evidence in the video record that the towers just can't fall as they said they did. Impossible. But again, as CL says, most people can't follow logic, it's a language more foreign to them than Latin, so even there you're at the mercy of ignorance.

Not an easy fight. Vigilance and calm, good words to follow.

This thread breaks it down just right, not preachy, fact filled, and makes you take a look at your perseptions and misconceptions.

911 thread of the year? Quite possibly. Keep the faith and the truth will emerge slowly.

Good to see you posting again IIB.

Thanks for the props guys.

I've been bust working on several different interlocking short films that includes a full feature length documentary (see avatar).

I want to turn this argument into video, but I'm still debating whether or not I want to make it a short or include the argument in the full length film. The time it's worth will probably determine that.

So I wanted to bump it and see if anything fresh fits as I've been real busy 'becoming an expert' on the highly complex Global Warming as well as furthering many of my usual topics for the overall multi-DVD project objective, but most particularly the plot of "An Unholy Alliance" (AGI, Google, Al Gore, empire, partisan biases, phony doomsday claims, etc).


The GWB watching the impact is pretty wild stuff. If it was only once I could see it more easily being thrown off as an idiot bumbling in an impromptu speech, but since he reiterated the same claim it makes that view hard to swallow. But for the sake of my argument, all I need is for it to be an intentional disinfo stunt to confuse and even test our collective stupidity. If it was intentional whether he seen it or not, or if he did see it equates to about the same conclusion in my view.

I've grown somewhat foggy on the NTSB issue, as the understanding of it has evolved since I've been scatter-tasked. So they released that animation with multiple? flaws, and then they said 'ya well whatever too bad'?