Police Clash with Protesters in L.A.

Originally posted by esdad71
How about crowd brutality? How may officers were injured and why? If it was a peaceful protest, there should be no reason to bring in the riot police. Maybe a few aquad cars but not the riot police. This is not a police state in action but a reaction to a few elements using the oppurtunity to press their own agenda. Sadly, many times innocents are caught in the middle of this.

The police were doing what they were trained to do, not told to do. Do we not remember the LA riots?

The difference between "crowd brutality" and police brutality is that the "crowd" is not expected to adhere to a code of ethics. Police are. Like I said before, look past the "agenda's" and "propaganda". Their own police chief is the one pointing out the actions of his officers. Riot police are always on stand by for most protests whether peaceful or not.

Originally posted by semperfoo
Still waiting for you "point".

What, you are still waiting! My point is clear as day, you just can't accept it for some strange reason. Yes, if your issue is that these people were illegal and that the police have a right to beat them because of that, then my point is that if you want it fixed look for the root of the problem not approve the beating of other humans. The illegal problem extends far grater than what you think.

Besides no one living today was alive back then. Its nothing more then a bunch of third worlders wanting what us americans have worked so hard to achieve.

Semper

What an interesting thing to say - that no one living here today was alive during the time of the Alamo, so they should just drop it? I guess you could say the same for any contentious period of time. I don't know... slavery or maybe you should tell the native americans to drop it too. 'Hey guys, I know we took your land, but come on, it happpened years ago. Let's just forget about it, let's bury the past and have a drink, amigo.'

So, let me get this right...if you were born in America, then you are a 'hard working American' by default? How does that work? Cause I know plently of people who do not fit that definition. In fact, some of them are quite the opposite. A few even have fat rich daddies who buy them stuff, who have never had to work a day in their lives. Hard working? Hm. No. You see some of the daddies got rich off the backs of the poor - but you know, exploition is such an applauded, well respected characteristic that a lot of Americans respect, so forget all that - just know that not everyone is 'hard working' simply by virtue of having been born in the US.

Besides, wasn't there once a contentious issue regarding Divne Rights? You know... kings, royalty, lords and ladies, that kind of thing. As I recall, y'all decided to do away with that, right? OR is that so long ago you've forgotten? If memory serves me, that whole divine thing didn't work in America, where the myth is that every man is allowed to reinvent himself.

You can't, I'm afraid, effectively use the other side of your faulty logic coin by saying that every illegal immigrant is (also by default) a lazy, no good third world scumbag. When the reality is that many immigrants are known to work harder than most people, because they have to in order to survive.

The issue here on this post however, is not about illegal immigration or divine rights, but whether these protestors should be attacked by the police. Your off the cuff comments about how being simply born here makes you a worthy, deserving, hard working and good person overall - and everyone else, the opposite, is a little hard to swallow.

There were plently of third world refugees that made the US their homes, and plenty of peniless poverty stricken europeans who came over without skills, language, money, or even luggage. A lot of them were kicked out, persecuted, or fleeing their pasts for whatever reasons. They also weren't welcomed, once upon a time: kicked, smeared and treated like sub serviant human beings. And now ironically, they are the first ones screaming about automatic rights and about the worthiness of birth of other people.

Just in case this isnt clear, having been in the US for a generation or two (or three) does NOT make you automatically into a hard working, honest person.

To each man his own. The only thing you can speak for is your own experience and that of your loved ones. You cannot generalise a blanket trait for an entire country or likewise speak for an entire group that is currently seen as undesireable.

I think inciting unrest is too easy for the police. This is nothing new. After all, people like you certainly won't be defending anyone.

Instead of forgetting history, you might actually read up on some? Read about the peaceful protests where police got out of line. (Duke and Colombia universities, to name a few, students being attacked for not towing the line); countless Vietnam protests; current Iraq war desenters, and many more.

And try to have some compassion for other human beings. Yes, despite legal status, they are still human beings. Immigration is a serious issue in a resourced stretched country strife with all kinds of problems at the moment; but history shows that violence and attacks on them is not the answer. History shows that forgetting is never the answer.


[edit on 3-5-2007 by nikelbee]

Yes, I agree with Mr. GreatLakes. The assumption that everyone at the event was illegal is absurd! Also we have yet to see any proof of protestors doing anything violent against the officers. However we DO have multiple sources of reliable evidence that show the police acting unjustly.

Originally posted by nikelbee
Instead of forgetting history, you might actually read up on some? Read about the peaceful protests where police got out of line. (Duke and Colombia universities, to name a few, students being attacked for not towing the line); countless Vietnam protests; current Iraq war desenters, and many more.

And while you're researching just how peaceful the students at Colombia are, don't overlook this little tidbit:

Students stormed the stage at Columbia University's Roone auditorium yesterday, knocking over chairs and tables and attacking Jim Gilchrist, the founder of the Minutemen, a group that patrols the border between America and Mexico.
:
Having wreaked havoc onstage, the students unrolled a banner that read, in both Arabic and English, "No one is ever illegal." As security guards closed the curtains and began escorting people from the auditorium, the students jumped from the stage, pumping their fists, chanting victoriously, "Si se pudo, si se pudo," Spanish for "Yes we could!"

www.nysun.com...

And try to have some compassion for other human beings. Yes, despite legal status, they are still human beings. Immigration is a serious issue in a resourced stretched country strife with all kinds of problems at the moment; but history shows that violence and attacks on them is not the answer. History shows that forgetting is never the answer.


[edit on 3-5-2007 by nikelbee]

Compassion should begin at home for these folks. Why doesn't their government improve living conditions for them so they don't have to illegaly enter our country? Why don't the illegal immigrants show some compassion for us instead of squatting down and sucking the resources out of our country?

Compassion should begin at home for these folks. Why doesn't their government improve living conditions for them so they don't have to illegaly enter our country? Why don't the illegal immigrants show some compassion for us instead of squatting down and sucking the resources out of our country?

Jsobecky, surely you are not implying that the US doesn't suck the living daylights out of other countries? Particularly poor ones that can't fight back. Ask yourself where the sustainable timber is coming from? Or the vast amounts of oil the US drains? Where is the cheap labour imported from; if not on the backs of poverty stricken workers from all over the globe. No argument that the population growth is out of control and that immigration is a huge problem, as stated before in my post above. But don't assume that the US isn't doing its fair share to suck dry the world's resources - more than any other country in the world in fact.

From news.independent.co.uk

On a global scale the average US citizen uses far more than his or her fair share of the planet's resources - consuming more than four times the worldwide average of energy, almost three times as much water and producing more than twice the average amount of rubbish and five times the amount of carbon dioxide, a major contributor to global warming. The US - with five per cent of the world's population - uses 23 per cent of its energy, 15 per cent of its meat and 28 per cent of its paper. Additional population will mean more people seeking a share of those often-limited resources.

On now back on topic. Students versus Police? Nothing new in the US. Been going on since the 60s. So now they as well as the illegal immigrants deserve to be beaten up for chanting? For getting angry? For protesting?


[edit on 3-5-2007 by nikelbee]

Here is a video that makes sense to me about the events in LA. This is from a reporters standpoint, surely reporters that are employed by foxnews aren't illegals. She states that the order to disperse is not heard, which certainly sounds very feasible to me, with the large organized rally there. This rally had many different areas to it, it wasn't just a small gathering. Tents were setup for different groups, TV crews setup in various areas, News vans everywhere, and lots of noise from people.

I can certainly see not hearing ANY order from police to do anything. Then next you know, a fast moving line of police overuns your area, mayhem and confusion erupt. So who really causes this commotion and chaos, I say the police. Sometime police get eager to use the new toys that they get commissioned by the city, stun guns and their shock rounds (rubber bullets).

Check the video and make your own judgments:

Originally posted by nikelbee

Compassion should begin at home for these folks. Why doesn't their government improve living conditions for them so they don't have to illegaly enter our country? Why don't the illegal immigrants show some compassion for us instead of squatting down and sucking the resources out of our country?

Jsobecky, surely you are not implying that the US doesn't suck the living daylights out of other countries? Particularly poor ones that can't fight back. Ask yourself where the sustainable timber is coming from? Or the vast amounts of oil the US drains? Where is the cheap labour imported from; if not on the backs of poverty stricken workers from all over the globe. No argument that the population growth is out of control and that immigration is a huge problem, as stated before in my post above. But don't assume that the US isn't doing its fair share to suck dry the world's resources - more than any other country in the world in fact.

Your analogy is a very poor one, nikelbee. The US is not sneaking into foreign countries and demanding that they sustain us. And we generally pay for those resources, unlike the illegal immigrants who sneak in and demand them for free just because they were able to sneak in undetected.

From news.independent.co.uk

On a global scale the average US citizen uses far more than his or her fair share of the planet's resources - consuming more than four times the worldwide average of energy, almost three times as much water and producing more than twice the average amount of rubbish and five times the amount of carbon dioxide, a major contributor to global warming. The US - with five per cent of the world's population - uses 23 per cent of its energy, 15 per cent of its meat and 28 per cent of its paper. Additional population will mean more people seeking a share of those often-limited resources.

I bolded and underlined text that you should consider when complaining about our resource consumption while defending illegal immigration.

On now back on topic. Students versus Police? Nothing new in the US. Been going on since the 60s. So now they as well as the illegal immigrants deserve to be beaten up for chanting? For getting angry? For protesting?


[edit on 3-5-2007 by nikelbee]

No, but a case can be made against them when they assault the police with bottles and rocks, or when they move out of designated areas into the streets where they interefere with commerce and traffic.

And of course, you're playing the innocent. You know that the purpose of my post was to counter your assertion that students at Columbia are innocent angels who are maliciously attacked by the police for no reason. That's a far cry from the truth, and I merely pointed it out.

It's discusting how the police treat the media people on site. No matter what the situation they shouldn't even request them to move unless they're really seriously on the way. Media should have the duty and the responsibility to document what happens. They were not in the way, they weren't doing anything illegal and they get beat up. You guys need to take action over there or that trend of ignoring rights of the press might start spreading to other countries.

↑ ↑ ↑
I agree.

Imagine the call when the elite department is notified that they need to respond to the demonstration in riot gear. This to a police officer is like an adrenaline shot in the arm! Most are relishing finally getting to use the new gear and to actually put into practice all of the tactics and techniques learned.

This is what causes many issues with the police and protesters/demonstrators.

As far as the media, who pays for damages to the camera gear, medical bills etc? Hi-end camera gear is really expensive, not few grand, but several 10's of thousands of dollars. HD cameras can be in the 100k level.

[edit on 3-5-2007 by greatlakes]

It's always funny how people talk about media cover-ups AGAINST the police. You have a Police Chief who even states that the force is excessive.. and people still go looking for the biased news-reports where a piece of wood flies against a bus. Or where some bottles fly at a police-car.

Sure a very dangerous situation for the fully equipped and armed police indeed.

Have you never wondered why in every demonstration there are more injured protesters than police-officers? Might that be because the police is more violent than the protesters? Just an idea.

For further examples and obious juridic cases of police-brutality u can check out my thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

No hijacking intented. It's absolutely related and shows how cover-up against us citizens works.

And by the way: Immigration problems are not the immigrators' fault. It's the american government who supports cheap labor.
And maybe you have thought about the fact that not only "illegal immigrants" (What a horrible fascist definition) participate in such a demonstration.

Here.. take a look at so-called objective news-reporting of the media always showing the FULL STORY.

F*CK THE CORPORATE MEDIA - A Day In The Lies

Jsobecky

We are not debating 'innocence' or angelic attitudes here. I certainly haven't mentioned it. If you haven't yet watched the video of the Columbia protests, where Minute men–– a group known for their special brand of passivity and non-violence–– were just as responsible for the disorder. And by the way, I was refering to the Columbia University riot in 1968. I should have made that clearer in my post. Here is a link of the Minute Mean protest in case anyone missed it.

CTV Columbia Protests

I have stated for the third time now, that immigration is a HUGE issue - connected to many things like policy, employment and depleted resources. I read the Independent article carefully, even the part about increased population. You seem to have skipped over the relevancy of my link.

Do you know many immigrants driving gas guzzling SUVs? With three or four cars parked in their garage, cooling a large house and heating a pool? It is too easy to blame other people for domestic issues. Do something about illegal immigration. Write letters. Sanction companies that are breaking the law. Elect better people. Improve relations with other countries and help them strengthen their policies. Protest even. Police violence isn't helpful in any case and malloting people over the head is not the answer.

There were children at that protest, entire families, including some elderly. For whomever said earlier that the parents should have been more responsible, that is a such a moralistic line to take. The parents were there as well as friends and other supporters, BECAUSE of the children.

I realise we are diverting into other issues that I don't really feel like discussing on this thread. So sorry, but this is is the last I am saying on these topics. If you want to go ahead and start your own anti immigration threads, feel free.

So back to the topic... during the immigration protest, sources in this article claim that the violence was evident and unnecessary.

From CBS News

Amid the cries and chaos, photographers were kicked, their camera's tossed. KCBS cameraman Carl Stein was knocked to the ground. So was reporter Mark Coogan.

"This is strictly my opinion," Coogan told Whitaker. "It was utterly uncalled for. It was overkill to the nth degree."

Some injured people were seen in the videos, including a Hispanic man with a bleeding welt on his stomach.

Bratton promised an investigation, and said he would discuss the matter further at a news conference later Wednesday.

"Quite frankly, I was disturbed at what I saw," Bratton told KNX-AM. He said the actions of some officers "were inappropriate in terms of use of batons and possible use of non-lethal rounds fired."

[edit on 3-5-2007 by nikelbee]

Police are violent, theyre always violent, always have been violent, and things wont change until people stop making excuses for it and putting up with it.

Riot police dressed in dark black outfits, like darth vader, shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at unarmed protestors is a disgrace to everything American.

And dont even get me started about the "illegal aliens" stupidity, people are people, period. The immigration system is a complete failure, forcing people to have to sneak in because they cant afford the ridiculously high fees, and cant wait 5 years for their citizenship to be accepted ok! The families need food today!!

Throwing rocks and bottles at the gang of dark policemen, oh big deal. How evil, how dare they attack our precious protectors! But its ok for the dark police to shoot rubber bullets, which at close range are lethal, its ok for them to bash people across the head with nightsticks, its ok for them to march against the people with pepper spray and dogs. Its ok for them to break peoples arms with nun-chucks, like at the WTO protest in Seattle, have you seen the footage?? Its ok for them to shoot in crowds of protestors, with women and children there, its ok for them to do it at every protest, no matter what the protest is about, its ok to shove your gun in the face of little children and start barking orders.

Its like the ringwraiths from Lord of the Rings, these dark spectors there to spread fear and to make sure the little hobbits, thats us the human herd, are kept in check.

The police are the criminal arm of the government, meant to enforce the goverment policy, which is to enslave and disarm you the people. The police are there, to impose themselves on your lives, on behalf of the State. They are there to serve and protect the STATE, and are there to squeeze every little penny they can off of you the people. They are not there to protect you, they are not there to keep you safe, they do neither. Cops are never around when ppl really need them, but if you drive 5 miles over the speedlimit, or are late 2 days with you car insurance payment, theyll seize your car, and slap you with a 500 dollar ticket.

And not all police are bad, there are naive cops who really think theyre doing some good for someone, but theyre not. This society is going to hell, and the police arent going to save you, they and theyre controllers, are destroying the society. The feds are destroying America. WAKE UP.


[edit on 3-5-2007 by LightWorker13]

Where is the line drawn? Many of you psoting are endorsing the attacking of Police officers and stating that they look like Darth Vader Shock troopers.

The attitude of the officers is propogated by the attitude described above. There are officers who care, but there are those who are also in that job for pure sadistic control.

This stated, what are they supposed to do? IF you have a crowd of 30,000 people and a small fraction start trouble, it can grow out of control quickly. What suggestions or alternatives can we give. Allow unruly people to destory homes, cars and businesses of innocent people or attempt to control a crowd where, from reading, no one was killed or seriously injured.

The Police Cheif is of course stating that there was some extreme measures taken to cover himself. I am not for police control, but once bottles start flying, get out of the area. Common sense.

Originally posted by LightWorker13
Police are violent, theyre always violent,

Certain episodes with the police has been use for exploitation and agendas of certain groups in this nation, as humans we live in a very dangerous society and is always going to be struggles between the law and the citizens that try to abide by the law, but as everything the law is made by men and prone to be broken and abuse.

But is there for a reason and to control anarchy.

Riot police dressed in dark black outfits, like darth vader,

For your information that is the gear use to show the protesters that the protest is to be over and for police to be prepare for problems with rioters.

shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at unarmed protestors is a disgrace to everything American.

That was only because the protesters or some of them turned into rioters and they as per told clearly in the article attacked the police after been told to disperser.

And dont even get me started about the "illegal aliens" stupidity, people are people, period.

Many are illegal aliens under the constitution of the US as for the US citizens we have the right to peaceful protest, but this do not applied to any illegal person that has gotten into this country by force.

The immigration system is a complete failure, forcing people to have to sneak in because they cant afford the ridiculously high fees, and cant wait 5 years for their citizenship to be accepted ok! The families need food today!!

Well it seems that you have been in that boat, I worked for a lawyer in immigration issues and yes when a persons wants to go to legal means to become a citizen of this country is because that person respect the laws of this nation and the wait while long is worth it.

Unfortunately, many want to go the fast way and break the law.

Blame corporate America for their corrupted way of supporting slave workers

Illegal workers cost money to society and to law-abiding citizens of this nation.

Behind many of the nation’s millions of undocumented workers are someone else's documents. To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often borrow one. As victim Melody Millet is fond of saying, U.S. citizens are being forced to share their identities with undocumented immigrants to give corporate America a steady supply of cheap labor.

redtape.msnbc.com...

You think that is right for them to do that to American citizens? how do you think they get to work, many get social securities, driver licenses at the expenses of legal American identities.

Throwing rocks and bottles at the gang of dark policemen, oh big deal.

So you support Anarchist? especially illegal ones?

Yes is a big deal they are citizens of this country protecting this nations for a reason even if they have a bad reputation.

After reading, your post I got the feeling that you are not very informed in the laws of this nation and what it takes to be a citizen by legal means.

So what do you suggest that we all American legal citizens leave this country and let the illegal immigrants take everything we have just to make them feel happy?

www.filecabi.net...

Interesting video, thoughts?

I find this un-necessarily abusive.

I do not honestly care what people like Esdad and others have to say when it comes to ignoring the police unnecessarily being brutal towards the camera crew and other people just trying to get out of the way and being peaceful.

I did not say to ignore the Police, I said to use common sense. I have seen the videos. Have you ever been in a situation like that? A riot out of control? I had a cinderblock go threw the wiondshield of my girlfriends car in the early 90's during rioting in St Pete due to police brutality. Sitting at a stoplight and "crash'. Then people start rocking the car? So, it is OK to throw rocks and bottles and hurt innocent people? The police were not there becasue they were with the NAtional Gaurd blocks away.

What is bieng missed here is the injuries sustained by the 'protesters' were initated by the ones who caused the police to have to be called in the first place. I am not condoning the beating of illegals, but I am against illegals in my country absuing the police force. In most countries this would have been a massacre.

Originally posted by souls

Originally posted by marg6043
Sorry but the news doesn't justified the fact that the protesters were mostly illegals so they were braking the law to begin with.

The feds should have rounded them all and send them back to where they belong.

So you approve police brutality because they were illegal?

How does "rounding them up and sending them back" equate to police brutality?

Does that also mean (to you) that police rounding up other types of criminals shipping them off to jail constitutes police "brutality"?

I personally don't see a difference. Police are here to enforce the laws equally, not selectively just because someone feels sorry for someone. Also personally feel that this type of thinking is the source of this country's problems, and not the solution.

10 X


And thank you marg for your excellent post on this.

10 X

[edit on 5/3/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by nikelbee
Jsobecky

We are not debating 'innocence' or angelic attitudes here. I certainly haven't mentioned it. If you haven't yet watched the video of the Columbia protests, where Minute men–– a group known for their special brand of passivity and non-violence–– were just as responsible for the disorder. And by the way, I was refering to the Columbia University riot in 1968. I should have made that clearer in my post. Here is a link of the Minute Mean protest in case anyone missed it.

You bring up something that happened 40 years ago; I bring up something that happened last year.

As far as the Minuteman protest, the students were entirely, 100% at fault. They launched an unprovoked attack on the members of the Minutemen who were there to speak.

I saw the Columbia video the day after it happened. The protestors never gave Gilchrist a chance to speak. They stormed the stage and unfurled their mis-spelt banners before he had a chance to address them.




CTV Columbia Protests

I have stated for the third time now, that immigration is a HUGE issue - connected to many things like policy, employment and depleted resources. I read the Independent article carefully, even the part about increased population. You seem to have skipped over the relevancy of my link.

No I haven't skipped over anything relevant. I've stressed the fact that we're talking about illegal immigrants, which you seem to want to gloss over.

Do you know many immigrants driving gas guzzling SUVs? With three or four cars parked in their garage, cooling a large house and heating a pool?

Is this supposed to instill some kind of guilt trip in those who work for what they have? It's not working.

Anyway, I do know of a lot of illegal immigrants who are driving around without a proper driver's license, uninsured, and unable to read the traffic signage posted all around them.

It is too easy to blame other people for domestic issues. Do something about illegal immigration. Write letters. Sanction companies that are breaking the law. Elect better people. Improve relations with other countries and help them strengthen their policies. Protest even.

Don't be sanctimonious. You have no idea what I do regarding illegal immigration, so don't make assumptions.

There were children at that protest, entire families, including some elderly. For whomever said earlier that the parents should have been more responsible, that is a such a moralistic line to take. The parents were there as well as friends and other supporters, BECAUSE of the children.

Yeah, well, we didn't take our toddlers to the battle front during WWII either, even though we were fighting for them...

I realise we are diverting into other issues that I don't really feel like discussing on this thread. So sorry, but this is is the last I am saying on these topics. If you want to go ahead and start your own anti immigration threads, feel free.

It's impossible to tell everything that happened from snippets of video. If there were cases of unprovoked police brutality, then those responsible should be punished. But so should those protestors who threw rocks and bottles at the police. This should not be used to indict an entire system, though.

The police need to be more disciplined when using such force like that, I don't care if there are people in the crowd throwing rocks and such, they need to isolate just who is doing it and arrest them.

If it gets out of hand, disperse the crowd accordingly but not get a hard on when you get to get your rubber shotgun out to fire into the crowd.

Ridiculous.