The PentaCon

I have an astronomy program on my computer ....it drives my telescope. It gives highly accurate coordinates and positions of a few million stars and planets, including the Sun, in both Right Ascension/Declination and in altitude/azimuth, for any time (past or present) as wll as any location on earth. The program I use is from Meade but there are many out there...some free probably.

That is awesome that programs can tell where the sun was on a past date, thanks darkbluesky!

LaBTop, I'm going to watch whatyou have stated in your previous post about the 2 outer lines in the flash area.

Hey LaBTop, do you think there is a possibility of a double-reflection?

I'll re-edit this post to give you an idea with a picture...

Sunlight

ok, let me number them off:

1. YELLOW - Sun's ray hitting directly on the car rim while it is parked.

2. RED - Rim reflecting sun onto CCTV camera.

3. GREEN - Plane's aluminum light reflection bouncing off of canopy onto car below.

Time of these assumptions - 12:30 AM and tired

[edit on 14-3-2007 by BigMoser]

so I understand the necessity of need for sleep, BigMoser.
Your green path bouncing off the shiny rim of the canopy is impossible since the angles of incoming and leaving beams of light from canopy to car to TL-box to camera can't be the same, but it shows constructive thinking.

Direct light from the sun as a reflection is only possible when all of the flash would have bounced off the side of the car, AND the car moved a bit, which it definitely didn't.

It must have been light reflecting from horizontal surfaces, like the chrome bar with warning lights on top of the police car, or front and/or back hoods, or car roof.

Darkbluesky, totally forgot about the astronomy programs, good find!
Better than a link, I trust these programs above many links.

the possibilities of Google Earth, I remember it is possible to change the field of view to quite sharp angles.
That way we could create a view of the Citgo, as if we were looking down on it, from the direction of the sun.
I hope it gives angle coordinates somewhere in it's left columns, then we can create a perfect angle looking down on Citgo, and draw in the shadows of the canopy.
And we can draw in the near exact position of the parked police car.

It still will be a very raw measure, since we can't create the exact position of that car from this crappy video, but it will do quite well for an overall good description of the positions of the objects involved.
EDIT : And possible and impossible light paths.

[edit on 15/3/07 by LaBTop]

I'll see what I can toy with on google earth

This is the GoogleEarth photo from darkbluesky at the bottom of page 19 :



I drew some thin yellow lines in it, following the quickly drawn shadow pattern of the canopy, darkbluesky draw in there.

I expect his shadow pattern to be a bit wrong, because the position of the black and white police car following the middle sunbeam projection is clearly wrong, too much to the right, if you observe its real position compared to the canopy-corner shadow in the JW-video screenshot from me :



It is parked more to the left of the canopy-corner shadow.
So the sun's position was different.
EDIT2: The middle beam clearly must run parallel to the 2 other beams, and points then to where the real position of the police car must be.

EDIT: if you draw a thin yellow line in Paint, through the centre of the flash projection on the canopy inner roof, down to the car reflection on its car-roof, and extend the centre flash line to the bottom of that screen shot, then you have the exact position of the sun, somewhere on this yellow line, further than the bottom.
Where the line hits the bottom, was the exact centre of the camera lens.

The problem is, to project this line on top of the canopy in darkbluesky's GoogleEarth photo, since we don't know the exact position of the camera, we can't look through that canopy roof, and the exact projected position of the police car in that photo is difficult to set.
However we can come very close, when observing the Judicial Watch screen shot.

Anyone having any ideas how to combine the photo under the canopy with the photo looking down on the canopy?
And reach a good level of accuracy.
Best solution is to look for other objects than the car, outside that canopy shadow, which are also fairly good visible in the birds eye view from above.
Then we can draw a line from that object to the car in the birds eye vision, in both photos. And have a common line in both photos.

[edit on 15/3/07 by LaBTop]

[edit on 15/3/07 by LaBTop]

we can measure the angle made by the line through the centre of the flash, with the left canopy shadow.
That angle we can project then on the birds eye view, but we first must draw in the EXACT shadow line of that left canopy rim.

Darkbluesky, can you correct your photo, so that the exact left canopy shadow is in there, according to the above assumption?
Pretty please?

Then we have a correct shadowed Citgo station photo, we can proceed with.

If you extend the upper yellow line, then somewhere on this line in the distance to the northeast of Citgo, was the flying object.

How far up do those poles go? Think we can draw a wireframe canopy roof and "get rid" of that blur?

The more and more I watch this footage, the more I think that the "car" we are refering to looks like a pickup type truck.

Unless you're theorizing that the reflection came off the aircraft windshield or leading edges of the wings or horizontal stabilizers, I dont think the angles work out. If the reflection came from the side of the fuselage or more likely, the broad relatively flat surface of the vertical stablizer, the reflection angle would have been more like illustrated below. I've added a rough shape indicating the orientation of the aircraft fuselage to Citgo based on CITs proposed flight trajectory.



For the glint in the video to have originated form the aircraft, I think the aircraft would have had to have been much further to the NE of Citgo, possibly 1/3 of the way to the pentagon.

Just throwing this out there, but could the sun's reflection become naturally from the car/truck itself as it did move at the split second it flashed. Maybe the plane has already passed by the time the flash occurs (judging from Dark's 2nd picture). I'm still not sure about those split second shadows on the south pump at 4:41.. They pop up then disappear, but seem like they head towards the pentagon

[edit on 15-3-2007 by BigMoser]

Now I'm starting to believe that the plane was PAST the Citgo by the time the reflection occured, thanks to Dark for the estimate sun reflections, since

Lagasse: "I saw it, then I heard it"

And after everyone heard the deafening sound, they then rushed to see what happened.

I'll address the above posts one by one by poster.
First all new posts by BigMoser.

How far up do those poles go? Think we can draw a wireframe canopy roof and "get rid" of that blur?

I believe Jack Tripper = Lyte Trip or Merc = narrator of the PentaCon video, somewhere in the posted here Loose Change link, to their forum thread mentioned the height of the inside canopy roof to be 20 feet, which is 20 x 0.3048 = 6.01 meter high.
You can't get rid of that blur, the FBI inserted it on purpose, to hide probably some things they could not explain, since they were convinced by "them" that the plane flew south of the Citgo. But you could draw one, a blank one I suppose you mean.

A wireframe canopy roof does not much good yet, since we first have to deduct the light path angle made with the shadow of the left canopy roof rim.
And that is not so easy as it seems from my posted Judicial Watch screenshot above, since there are some difficulties with that, not visible at first glance. The light path from car to camera is the hypothenusa of a triangle formed by the height of the centre of the camera lens to the ground, the ground level, and that hypothenusa.
Thus it is not in the same plain as the shadow of the canopy roof rim, that one is in the plain of the ground level area.

The more and more I watch this footage, the more I think that the "car" we are referring to looks like a pickup type truck.

I don't think so, im my opinion it is a black and white police car, which first came driving into the Citgo, which has only one combined entrance/exit btw, then drove up under the canopy at the Dual Pump side, drove through slowly and stopped behind there somewhere. It waited a few minutes (all not recorded by the camera), then drove on again to the left around the canopy, and came back in camera view again, driving slowly to its point of standstill. It also had a warning light bar on its roof.

Just throwing this out there, but could the sun's reflection become naturally from the car/truck itself as it did move (note 1) at the split second it flashed. Maybe the plane has already passed (note 2) by the time the flash occurs (judging from Dark's 2nd picture). I'm still not sure about those split second shadows on the south (note 3) pump at 4:41.. They pop up then disappear, but seem like they head to wards the pentagon.

Now I'm starting to believe that the plane was PAST [note 2) the Citgo by the time the reflection occurred, thanks to Darkbluesky for the estimate sun reflections, since

Lagasse: "I saw it, then I heard it" (note 4)

And after everyone heard (note 4) the deafening sound, they then rushed to see what happened.

My notes :
1. The car didn't move at the moments the flash occurred.
See my explanation above with the static white stripe on the car, adjacent to the black canopy pole, through all 9 frames.
The flash lasted 9 frames in the WMV file. And the WMV file plays with (29), in fact really 27.7 (see Statistics of WMV file), frames per Second. (And I suspect the real rate offered by the FBI to be even lower)
Thus 1 frame lasts 100 : 27.7 = 3.61milliseconds. Then 9 frames last 32.49 milliseconds.
That's a flash during 32.5 milliseconds. Roughly one third of a second.
If the car moved, it must have moved damn slow, which is unlikely. Any normal car would move faster when the brake was released a bit for an automatic brand, and even faster when the clutch was released a bit for a gear box brand.
Plus, you have to take in account the intensity of the flash, compare it to all the less intense sun flashes coming off other cars which followed the same route in the earlier part of the video.
2. Then the plane must have flown faster than the speed of light.
3. We are following in this thread, the 3 witness statements, who saw all, that the plane flew north. And at that position, that plane can NOT throw a shadow anywhere near the south pump. Any shadow would have occurred even much more North. Case closed, now you're sure, -IF- you believe the 2 policemen eyewitnesses.
4. You forget a few things.
Doppler effect (not so important here), speed of PLANE and speed of SOUND.
If a plane flies officially by with 857 km/hr, and the speed of sound is 333 meter per second ( for exact speed of sound at that altitude at that airpressure, see f.ex. WikiPedia), we can do the math :
857,000 meter : 3600 seconds = 238 meters/second. In 1 second the plane moved 238 meters on its flight path.
The plane's flash lasted roughly 1/3 of a second, thus the reflective surface must have been roughly 238 :3 = 79.3 meters long, if that surface passed the sun beam reflected onto the car.

But that length calculation works only if the camera which recorded it would have been a very expensive high speed one, which we are sure it wasn't.
So we are left with a big part of the flash retaining in the VHS tape as a ghost picture, I assume.
Thus the 79.3 meter length is somewhat moot as any form of exact calculation from this clearly doctored video.
We don't know exactly what the FBI doctored in this video, and at what levels.
That's why I realize that exact calculations based on the properties of this specific video are in fact lost time.
I'm only left with the strong notion that the FBI analysts left that flash in, since it was on the "wrong" side.

If we assume the plane was flying on the flight path drawn by the 2 police officers, see this photo :



Then the plane was roughly 150 meters away from Lagasse at its closest point on its flight path to him.
It took the sound of the 2 jet engines 238 : 333 = 0.71 second to reach the ears of Sgt. Lagasse.
In that time it moved already 238 x 0.71 = 169 meters. (roughly, considering all unsure data)
So, yes, he probably saw it first, then heard the jet engines roar past him.


Darkbluesky, you are right, the reflection must have come from a surface on the plane following roughly the angle of the thin blue line you draw there in your first photo. (Your drawn canopy shadows in an earlier photo are out of sync with the real position of the sun at that moment, but not much, the corner shadow must be about 1.5 meter more to the left, east position on your photo with your drawn in rim shadows. Compare the position of the police car with the corner of the shadows in my clean Jud.Watch screenshot).

Looks awfully much like the angle of the right plane wing's front rim, which is a thick, rounded white reflective surface.
That means the police car was standing in the exact right position at those split seconds, to reflect the sunlight from that wing front rim via the police car to the inside canopy roof, to the camera.

To be honest, I do very well realize we have here a few possibilities which need a damn long time to concentrate on defending or opposing, like :
1. The flash could be a direct one from the sun on a part of the car. No plane involved.
2. The flash could come from an object on the elevated roads further in the distance. No plane involved.
3. The flash could come from a different flying object than the plane. A plane involved, chased by ?...
4. The flash comes from the plane.

I already introduced many thoughts why I think it is option 4.
Plus the timing of the flash, all people involved to be seen in the video, start reacting after that flash.
Which is of course one of the strongest points that the plane caused the flash, if you accept the testimonies.

Let's finish off with a few remarks from all participants in this flash theory, and then concentrate on the police officers testimonies.
Luckily a lot of our posts will have covered a lot of what is to be discussed further on.
And the drawings and photographs are damn helpful for the rest of this PentaCon discussion.

Well, I guess I'll go...

After rereading previous posts, and reading this last one, it has settled me down now on the issues of what could this and that be. I can now see that the car had an intense flash at 4:44 and everyone reacted to it, making it seem it does come from the plane itself (in some form or another). The pictures and comparisons have given me the knowledge that I could not have thought of for myself.

-BigMoser

Originally posted by LaBTop
To be honest, I do very well realize we have here a few possibilities which need a damn long time to concentrate on defending or opposing, like :
1. The flash could be a direct one from the sun on a part of the car. No plane involved.
2. The flash could come from an object on the elevated roads further in the distance. No plane involved.
3. The flash could come from a different flying object than the plane. A plane involved, chased by ?...
4. The flash comes from the plane.

I already introduced many thoughts why I think it is option 4.
Plus the timing of the flash, all people involved to be seen in the video, start reacting after that flash.
Which is of course one of the strongest points that the plane caused the flash, if you accept the testimonies.

There is a 5th possiblity.

The fireball at the Pentagon, whatever it's cause, was responsible for the flash on the vehicle.

hmm, since it only took a second to get to where its going, maybe the people in the video had a late reaction to the fly-by scream?

But isn't the Pentagon really far away to get a reflection of the explosion?

Originally posted by BigMoser
hmm, since it only took a second to get to where its going, maybe the people in the video had a late reaction to the fly-by scream?

I think the reactions we see on the Video came after the explosion not instanaeously after the fly by.

But isn't the Pentagon really far away to get a reflection of the explosion?

Isn't the Sun really far away?

The Sun's disk spans about 30 arc minutes of the sky (0.5 degrees)
I'd estimate a 200 ft. diameter fireball 1,500 feet away spanned somewhere around 2-3 arc degrees.

This is a clear shot (supposedly nowadays) from the north canopy of the Citgo station.
Can you imagine that the plane flash ONLY came from a point about a meter to the right from the nearest black support post, if that flash would be a reflection of the impact explosion?
See first my clean screen shot again :

Source : files.abovetopsecret.com...

Impossible. As I said before, the whole station's inside canopy roof would have been illuminated.
See how shiny everything is (easy reflecting light), and how shiny the cars are. They would have been reflecting impact light like light towers.

The reflection of an explosion at the Pentagon about 500 meter away would have never ONLY reached a mirror or other vertical surface of the police car.
It would have spread like a "light cloud" and we would have seen that at 4:44 or earlier or later.
It is not to be discovered.

EDIT : and you see the female manager coming running out of her office space, in front of the cashiers camera.
We can assume she reacted on the noise of 2 jet engines at full speed running, passing by at about 150 meters.
Not on the light of a distant explosion.
And the sun was shining very bright, suppressing any less intense light.

[edit on 16/3/07 by LaBTop]