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On to something huge here! (UFO HOAX)

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posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 01:10 AM
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Check out this UFO photo taken over Lake Ontario in 2004, look familiar?


[edit on 12-2-2007 by Frozenthought]




posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 01:18 AM
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From Orb Watch - Same object I filmed going into lake
DOUBLE ORB
5th October 1999

From North Shore, Lake Ontario

This set of cropped frames from videotape shows the ORB slowly travelling east towards its point of submersion. This is the first opportunity that I have had to actually document such an event. We saw several double ORBS from Niagara-on-the-Lake, 8th July last year, but the camera was already packed away, and we were only able to watch the spectacle with our binoculars.
Tonight, I had witnessed a double ORB submersion approximately ten minutes before this footage was taken. I missed the event as I had turned away to reach my coffee cup. I was a bit glum about the missed opportunity, but just moved on. I hear myself on the tape saying, "Please could you give me a repeat performance if you don't mind."




posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 01:21 AM
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Wow! A Scientific Study I found on Orbwatch.com on these double orb (my video) & single orb ufo's
www.hessdalen.org...

[edit on 12-2-2007 by Frozenthought]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by Frozenthought
you are on a roll, And to my filming Airport traffic for money? That is just your opinion now isn't it?


Others besides me have shown that you were filming into a traffic pattern and facing an airport. I fail to see how you could not realize you were doing this; I also fail to see how you could not have known it when you saw the first aircraft make a landing. Perhaps the most telling fact is that you are proceeding with your attempt to get media coverage for this footage, after such a “reasonable doubt” has been cast upon the authenticity of the footage.

So to me, this leaves only two options on this footage, from my perspective:
First,
You got involved in a venture to release a UFO video on the great lakes UFO’s, hot on the heels of the Chicago O’Hare sighting while the market for such a film is good, and needed to get never before seen footage for that DVD. You intentionally went to a location where you knew there would be aircraft lights visible unobstructed from a great distance with no sound. You filmed aircraft landing at the airport across this distance in visual light to show the effects of heat causing a mirage on the aircraft lights. You intentionally left the camera in zoomed in visible light mode so that the lights would seem to move and flash more erratically. You accidentally made the mistake of switching to low light mode which caused the film to zoom back out showing nothing more then two aircraft stacked into an airport. It’s very telling that you had a camera capable of low light mode, yet you use visible light, the reason is because in low light mode the shoreline becomes visible as reference and thus you cannot zoom and shake the camera without it being detected. You switch back out of that mode rapidly then concentrate on the second aircraft as the first was making its landing by claiming that the second one was getting close, while it’s obviously getting further. You then shut off the video. The whole time yelling, very unprofessionally, about how they cannot be planes and such so it sounds like some amateur seeing something amazing for the first time, when you have stated you see these often. You put the video up here and got caught with your pants down and now are backpedaling and ignoring facts, while continuing to try and save the project.

Obviously saving the project and getting media coverage is foremost on your mind, and thus makes this theory the most probable.


Second,
You really thought you were seeing something out of the ordinary, but ended up being mistaken and now perhaps it requires further investigation as there is a “reasonable doubt” to the identity of what has been filmed.

The reason that I doubt this to be the case, is you have yet to show the slightest interest in possibility this video might have just been explained and should be further peer reviewed before being released. Even though it has been clearly shown that you were filming into a flight pattern, your focus at the moment is doing damage control, and continuing to attempt and garner media coverage for it. To any logical person this shows a lack of objectivity, and the true agenda of the footage: To make money, or get your 15 seconds of fame connected to the O’Hare sighting.

Your first objective does not seem to be to the truth here, and thus it’s apparent to me what the motive is. If you do market this footage, I suggest you do it under the Science Fiction section, to do otherwise at this point would be fraud.


Originally posted by Frozenthought
Are there Airplanes with only one huge ball of plasma, I think not.


Yes there are several aircraft with only one visible landing light until they put down their landing gear. Often these are more along the line of a 757, or 767 where it’s a light at the wing root. The second light is obscured by the body if the aircraft is off center with you by even just a few degrees. The red and green nav lights are not visible at great range as they are not very bright to begin with.

Oh, and by the way, aircraft turn on their landing lights anytime they proceed under 10K feet, not at a specific distance from the airport.


As to your quoting orb watch, I don’t know anything about orb watch, but I would say that it is possible that they are connected with your video in some way, or perhaps they also are making some cash off advertising sold for web hits. Again unless they want to film these with an open laptop set to “flight tracker” in front of the camera to show that they are not aircraft, at this point all these lake Erie orbs are questionable as explainable events.



[edit on 2/12/2007 by defcon5]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Frozenthought
you are on a roll, And to my filming Airport traffic for money? That is just your opinion now isn't it?


Others besides me have shown that you were filming into a traffic pattern and facing an airport. I fail to see how you could not realize you were doing this; I also fail to see how you could not have known it when you saw the first aircraft make a landing. Perhaps the most telling fact is that you are proceeding with your attempt to get media coverage for this footage, after such a “reasonable doubt” has been cast upon the authenticity of the footage.

So to me, this leaves only two options on this footage, from my perspective:
First,
You got involved in a venture to release a UFO video on the great lakes UFO’s, hot on the heels of the Chicago O’Hare sighting while the market for such a film is good, and needed to get never before seen footage for that DVD. You intentionally went to a location where you knew there would be aircraft lights visible unobstructed from a great distance with no sound. You filmed aircraft landing at the airport across this distance in visual light to show the effects of heat causing a mirage on the aircraft lights. You intentionally left the camera in zoomed in visible light mode so that the lights would seem to move and flash more erratically. You accidentally made the mistake of switching to low light mode which caused the film to zoom back out showing nothing more then two aircraft stacked into an airport. It’s very telling that you had a camera capable of low light mode, yet you use visible light, the reason is because in low light mode the shoreline becomes visible as reference and thus you cannot zoom and shake the camera without it being detected. You switch back out of that mode rapidly then concentrate on the second aircraft as the first was making its landing by claiming that the second one was getting close, while it’s obviously getting further. You then shut off the video. The whole time yelling, very unprofessionally, about how they cannot be planes and such so it sounds like some amateur seeing something amazing for the first time, when you have stated you see these often. You put the video up here and got caught with your pants down and now are backpedaling and ignoring facts, while continuing to try and save the project.

Obviously saving the project and getting media coverage is foremost on your mind, and thus makes this theory the most probable.


Second,
You really thought you were seeing something out of the ordinary, but ended up being mistaken and now perhaps it requires further investigation as there is a “reasonable doubt” to the identity of what has been filmed.

The reason that I doubt this to be the case, is you have yet to show the slightest interest in possibility this video might have just been explained and should be further peer reviewed before being released. Even though it has been clearly shown that you were filming into a flight pattern, your focus at the moment is doing damage control, and continuing to attempt and garner media coverage for it. To any logical person this shows a lack of objectivity, and the true agenda of the footage: To make money, or get your 15 seconds of fame connected to the O’Hare sighting.

Your first objective does not seem to be to the truth here, and thus it’s apparent to me what the motive is. If you do market this footage, I suggest you do it under the Science Fiction section, to do otherwise at this point would be fraud.


Oh, and by the way aircraft turn on their landing lights anytime they proceed under 10K feet, not at a specific distance from the airport.


Since I know eberything you said to be BS , All I can do is feel sorry for you, must be a sad life being so jaded. You haven't prooved jack either so you know, Not one thing that has been presenting here trying to proove they are planes have made any sense if you actauuly just look at the video, They are not sending planes 30 miles East over Lake Erie 50 to 100 feet above the lake.

And yes, I do see them often, And every single time I get excited, this event was even more special because of the 2nd object coming into the view then hovering over the other one, that doesn't happen very often, it just seems like you are grasping at at straws, are you really that desperate to be right in your own mind.....Sad Indeed.

By the way, I don't need money from this, I am very accomplished musician, a award winning musician as a fact with two CD's out that have done very well, your distrust in others sickens me.


[edit on 12-2-2007 by Frozenthought]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by Frozenthought
You haven't prooved jack either so you know, Not one thing that has been presenting here trying to proove they are planes have made any sense if you actauuly just look at the video


Actually if you have read the thread it seems that a pretty good number of folks here agree with my assessment of the footage. Perhaps you should review your objectivity on the topic.


Originally posted by Frozenthought
They are not sending planes 30 miles East over Lake Erie 50 to 100 feet above the lake.


We both know that at 30 miles they only appear to be at that altitude. Even looking at your section of the video that is in low light mode it is apparent to anyone that knows jack about aircraft that those flights are thousands of feet up. Both distance, and curve of the earth make them appear lower then they actually are. It should also be noted that any large body of water swells or bulges at night, this is called a tide.

You missed this bit, as it was an edit on my part, so I guess so ill repeat it here for you:


Originally posted by Frozenthought
Are there Airplanes with only one huge ball of plasma, I think not.


Yes there are several aircraft with only one visible landing light until they put down their landing gear. Often these are more along the line of a 757, or 767 where it’s a light at the wing root. The second light is obscured by the body if the aircraft is off center with you by even just a few degrees. The red and green nav lights are not visible at great range as they are not very bright to begin with.

Oh, and by the way, aircraft turn on their landing lights anytime they proceed under 10K feet, not at a specific distance from the airport.


As to your quoting orb watch, I don’t know anything about orb watch, but I would say that it is possible that they are connected with your video in some way, or perhaps they also are making some cash off advertising sold for web hits. Again unless they want to film these with an open laptop set to “flight tracker” in front of the camera to show that they are not aircraft, at this point all these lake Erie orbs are questionable as explainable events.



[edit on 2/12/2007 by defcon5]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 02:17 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Frozenthought
You haven't prooved jack either so you know, Not one thing that has been presenting here trying to proove they are planes have made any sense if you actauuly just look at the video


Actually if you have read the thread it seems that a pretty good number of folks here agree with my assessment of the footage. Perhaps you should review your objectivity on the topic.


Originally posted by Frozenthought
They are not sending planes 30 miles East over Lake Erie 50 to 100 feet above the lake.


We both know that at 30 miles they only appear to be at that altitude. Even looking at your section of the video that is in low light mode it is apparent to anyone that knows jack about aircraft that those flights are thousands of feet up. Both distance, and curve of the earth make them appear lower then they actually are. It should also be noted that any large body of water swells or bulges at night, this is called a tide.

You missed this bit, as it was an edit on my part, so I guess so ill repeat it here for you:


Originally posted by Frozenthought
Are there Airplanes with only one huge ball of plasma, I think not.


Yes there are several aircraft with only one visible landing light until they put down their landing gear. Often these are more along the line of a 757, or 767 where it’s a light at the wing root. The second light is obscured by the body if the aircraft is off center with you by even just a few degrees. The red and green nav lights are not visible at great range as they are not very bright to begin with.

Oh, and by the way, aircraft turn on their landing lights anytime they proceed under 10K feet, not at a specific distance from the airport.


As to your quoting orb watch, I don’t know anything about orb watch, but I would say that it is possible that they are connected with your video in some way, or perhaps they also are making some cash off advertising sold for web hits. Again unless they want to film these with an open laptop set to “flight tracker” in front of the camera to show that they are not aircraft, at this point all these lake Erie orbs are questionable as explainable events.



[edit on 2/12/2007 by defcon5]


Uhmmm, Ya, You got us, Orbwatch is in on it too, are you freaken out of your mind? You attacked the guy who asked me some abduction related questions, Now your onto Orbwatch who have been filming these objects since the late 90's, I guess they knew we would be putting out this film and that I would film the same things here over Lake Erie in 2006?

Do you know what you sound like? do you just go around hating?

[edit on 12-2-2007 by Frozenthought]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 02:37 AM
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DEFCON5

quote: Originally posted by Southpaw11
6. did anybody wake up around 3am?


I am curious what you think waking at 0300 is supposed to prove?
It’s a well documented fact that people go into a REM period at 0300, and often have an associated sleep apnea event causing them to wake up at this time. If this is the kind of thing that you relate to an abduction, then you are seriously incorrect.

NO. Sleep Apnea does not wake them up. But you ARE correct in stating this is the time when DEEP sleep occurs... the REM period. It's the point of the night, consequently, when YOU are most vulnerable.

Hate to say it, but, in the instant case, you are thinking TOO MUCH. If 2000 people all come in and tell you the events are happening around 3am... you, as an investigator, would start watching 3am as a trigger hour, no?

These events happen right about 3am. They happen in broad daylight as well. But... at 3am... traffic patterns are WAY down... it is QUIET... in most places...

Do you wake up at 3... or 3:30 in the morning ever? You will also find MANY people that tell you there are noises on their roofs at about 3am... then they wake up with puncture wounds and red splotches... and florescence... etc.

As an investigator... I'll tell you this... 0300 IS the witching hour. I understand and appreciate your explanation.

Tell me why a vast majority of these same abductees demonstrate damage to the L5/S1 or the T3?

Tell me why completely unrelated people describe the same events... and they are NOT quoting ANYTHING YOU nor anybody else if gonna find on the internet ANYWHERE? People from OPPOSITE SIDES of the planet, my friend.

And guess what... 0300 is the witching hour.

So 3am IS significant. Think about it this way. If YOU were the adversary, and you were going to implement unconditional methods to overtake your prey... LIKE THEY DO... You would look for their points of vulnerability. For an organization that can control thought, action, and memory... I believe it would also, then, be plausible to expect them to be able to figure out that 3am IS the REM period. And that humans ARE most relaxed and VULNERABLE at that point in time.




Same with the salt thing, many folks that experience sleep apnea sweat so badly during the night that they deplete themselves of salt and need to replenish it in the morning.

SP RESPONSE
Yes, but what about the abductees who are NOT suffering from sleep apnea, yet demonstrate the same trait? What then?

What if the nature of the "experimentation" as it gets called in here oftentimes, is to REMOVE fluids from your body? Have you ever pondered the fact that those smelly little ranch hands... the grays... gotta eat too? What if it's YOUR FLUIDS that feed them?

Some of this is going to seem foreign even to the people HERE in ATS... but I speak TRUTH. Whether these truths revolve within the FACT... remains to be seen, but these are the observations we've experienced to date.

Abductees talk about developing a strange habit of NOT showering or bathing for days at a time... Now why would THAT be? It was such an OFF THE WALL congruency at first...

Think about it... if YOU made a biomechanical entity to do your dirtywork because the rules of engagement said YOU are not allowed to personally engage your query... and had to FEED IT... how would you do that? What if WASTE from their query could double as FOOD for the gray?

Now THAT is GROSS no? Imagine that... little grays saving your sweat, slime, juices, etc... to make an ET stew a little later after they drop you off back at the ranch with the rest of the "cattle"?

So, in summary, your arguments are NOT invalid. Not at all. But what you've done is found a "comfort zone" that explains ONE possible explanation about that to which I refer. I think you've done well... but even though those explanations are plausible...

RESERVE JUDGEMENT



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by Frozenthought
Uhmmm, Ya, You got us, Orbwatch is in on it too, are you freaken out of your mind? You attacked the guy who asked me some abduction related questions, Now your onto Orbwatch who have been filming these objects since the late 90's, I guess they knew we would be putting out this film and that I would film the same things here over Lake Erie in 2006?

Do you know what you sound like? do you just go around hating?


As I said I don’t know anything about OrbWatch, but if they are also showing orbs over the lake in this area, then their video is also highly questionable. You know when you make extraordinary claims the claimer is required to show extraordinary proof, not the skeptic.

So far you have shown no proof that these are anything but aircraft. Calling me names is not going to provide your proof for you, nor legitimize your claims. It’s blatantly obvious though that a bunch of you have resorted to name calling to try and discredit my legitimate claims and questions. Show me once in this thread where I have name called, you cannot because it has not happened. I can show repeatedly others calling me names however, everything from government agent to a hater. So continue with the name calling, all its really doing is casting further doubt on the legitimacy of your claims as you cannot provide tangible proof that these are not aircraft, nor can you stand up to serious scrutiny...

If you don’t like the message, you try and discredit the messenger, this seems to be SOP in the ufo community.



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 02:53 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Frozenthought
Uhmmm, Ya, You got us, Orbwatch is in on it too, are you freaken out of your mind? You attacked the guy who asked me some abduction related questions, Now your onto Orbwatch who have been filming these objects since the late 90's, I guess they knew we would be putting out this film and that I would film the same things here over Lake Erie in 2006?

Do you know what you sound like? do you just go around hating?


As I said I don’t know anything about OrbWatch, but if they are also showing orbs over the lake in this area, then their video is also highly questionable. You know when you make extraordinary claims the claimer is required to show extraordinary proof, not the skeptic.

So far you have shown no proof that these are anything but aircraft. Calling me names is not going to provide your proof for you, nor legitimize your claims. It’s blatantly obvious though that a bunch of you have resorted to name calling to try and discredit my legitimate claims and questions. Show me once in this thread where I have name called, you cannot because it has not happened. I can show repeatedly others calling me names however, everything from government agent to a hater. So continue with the name calling, all its really doing is casting further doubt on the legitimacy of your claims as you cannot provide tangible proof that these are not aircraft, nor can you stand up to serious scrutiny...

If you don’t like the message, you try and discredit the messenger, this seems to be SOP in the ufo community.



As i said, you can say they are planes all you want, you attack my character & me personally and I'll let you know my thoughts on your unevolved behavior.

We know you think they are planes, do you have anything else to add to the conversation?



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 02:55 AM
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DEFCON5 is right here, folks.

I, personally, believe D5 is a little off... but there are those that are going to believe the truth is off too... Remember Einstein's quote... there's a bunch of strife to go through before ANYTHING is accepted as "obvious".

DEFCON wrote:

As I said I don’t know anything about OrbWatch, but if they are also showing orbs over the lake in this area, then their video is also highly questionable. You know when you make extraordinary claims the claimer is required to show extraordinary proof, not the skeptic.

So far you have shown no proof that these are anything but aircraft. Calling me names is not going to provide your proof for you, nor legitimize your claims. It’s blatantly obvious though that a bunch of you have resorted to name calling to try and discredit my legitimate claims and questions.



He's right. It IS the claimant's job to provide extraordinary evidence. We just have to all remember not to SLAM each other. Whether we realize it or not... we are on the cutting edge of humanity's existance out here in these conversations. Let's make certain we demonstrate humility, respect, tolerance, compassion, and understanding while we try to DISPROVE EVERYTHING under the sun

I'm not joking about any of that. If WE fight... the ones vigilant for truth... then WHO is going be guarian over the fight for the same truth? That entity has GOT to be people like you all...

STAND TOGETHER.

DO NOT FORSAKE EACH OTHER.

LISTEN. LISTEN VERY WELL TO EACH OTHER.


Take in ALL the criticisms... because in the end... truth WILL be known. Our patience MUST be extreme... If ANYTHING about US has got to be "extreme"... it IS patience.

Now...

That said...

DEFCON5
These are not aircraft. Denial is not a safe place to live either... LOL... I see your point... and whomever brought in the ATC graphic... VERY WELL DONE! I want to know where you obtained that data...

BUT...

Those are not aircraft. We also have aviators among us... we've made CERTAIN of that. I've got a USMC Huey Crew Chief too... his ability goes beyond even the pilots we have among us... he's a trained observer... He DEFINITELY knows what aircraft nav lighting looks like.

This same anomoly... not necessarily the "double up effect" has been seen by ME, my fiance, three of my people that reside in the same city as I, one of my guys from Ardmore, OK, One in San Diego, CA, one in West Point, GA, one in Ocala, FL.

These are NOT aircraft. The flight behavior is NOT of fixed NOR manmade rotory craft, period. Thebehaviors cannot be mimicked by manmade devices of which we are aware.

Likewise, MOST of my people who have reported these lights ALSO report an event having happened that same night.

Now... this will give you MORE information... it is NOT "all" the information, I realize... but KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN.

We do NOT know what they are... but we DO know they show up when the scent of sulfur does... and when noises on the roof show up... and when LOCKED doors somehow just pop open... and little orbs of light show up in the living room... red marks appear on chests... puncture wounds appear inside elbows... vivid dreams of aliens and other crazy stuff occur... And, last but certainly not least...

THEY ALL REPORT WAKING BETWEEN 0300 and 0400.

hmmm...

As an investigator, I must remain objective, and will say at this point that we merely have some similarities upon which we must now act...

Fair enough?

SPout

Be excellent to each other...

SPout

[edit on 12/202/07 by Southpaw11]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 03:01 AM
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Originally posted by Southpaw11
DEFCON5 is right here, folks.

I, personally, believe D5 is a little off... but there are those that are going to believe the truth is off too... Remember Einstein's quote... there's a bunch of strife to go through before ANYTHING is accepted as "obvious".

DEFCON wrote:

As I said I don’t know anything about OrbWatch, but if they are also showing orbs over the lake in this area, then their video is also highly questionable. You know when you make extraordinary claims the claimer is required to show extraordinary proof, not the skeptic.

So far you have shown no proof that these are anything but aircraft. Calling me names is not going to provide your proof for you, nor legitimize your claims. It’s blatantly obvious though that a bunch of you have resorted to name calling to try and discredit my legitimate claims and questions.



He's right. It IS the claimant's job to provide extraordinary evidence. We just have to all remember not to SLAM each other. Whether we realize it or not... we are on the cutting edge of humanity's existance out here in these conversations. Let's make certain we demonstrate humility, respect, tolerance, compassion, and understanding while we try to DISPROVE EVERYTHING under the sun

I'm not joking about any of that. If WE fight... the ones vigilant for truth... then WHO is going be guarian over the fight for the same truth? That entity has GOT to be people like you all...

STAND TOGETHER.

DO NOT FORSAKE EACH OTHER.

LISTEN. LISTEN VERY WELL TO EACH OTHER.


Take in ALL the criticisms... because in the end... truth WILL be known. Our patience MUST be extreme... If ANYTHING about US has got to be "extreme"... it IS patience.

Be excellent to each other...

SPout


You are right, some of the people here have got to me, and I had thought I had gone beyond that, perhaps I need to take a break from here for a while.

Peace to you all.



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 03:03 AM
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Frozenthought,

I watched your video for the first time just now, because i finally got DSL today. Sorry if i am about to say something that has already been said, because i haven't read all the pages.

I have to say that i believe it to be a genuine UFO. I'm not an expert by an stretch of the word, but i've seen my fair share of videos and know what to look for, and these things pulled a strange maneuver...

I watched the 2nd object really closely as it 'docked' with the first one, and with the brightness up a bit you can see a dark, cigar shaped object that is projecting the 2 red lights. I saw a glimpse of the same shape on the first object, but not as clear as the one that enters and leaves again.

What i find fascinating is how the beams turn off as the object comes and goes. It really is beautiful to watch, if a bit scary.



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by Southpaw11
NO. Sleep Apnea does not wake them up. But you ARE correct in stating this is the time when DEEP sleep occurs... the REM period. It's the point of the night, consequently, when YOU are most vulnerable.

Hate to say it, but, in the instant case, you are thinking TOO MUCH. If 2000 people all come in and tell you the events are happening around 3am... you, as an investigator, would start watching 3am as a trigger hour, no?


I mentioned earlier what it is that I do now, I am a sleep technician for a sleep center, not a government dis-info agent as some have claimed. Folks that come in for testing, who are positive, normally wake up at 0300 like clockwork to use the bathroom. This is because the brain emits a chemical that paralysis the muscle tissue and the airway becomes obstructed in REM sleep. There are hundreds of millions of people that suffer from this, and many of them are not even aware they have a problem. Think about everyone you have ever know that snores, I am sure that is a lot of people. Now consider the fact that snoring is the sound of tissue blocking the airway and they are actually choking at this point, and Walla; lots of people that wake up at 0300.

How can I prove this definitively…
Because when we place these same people on a Cpap machine and lift the tissue out of the airway while they sleep, they cease to wake up during their REM stage sleep and remain still, silent, and asleep through 0300. No alien or ghost or anything else being involved.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
Do you wake up at 3... or 3:30 in the morning ever? You will also find MANY people that tell you there are noises on their roofs at about 3am... then they wake up with puncture wounds and red splotches... and florescence... etc.

As an investigator... I'll tell you this... 0300 IS the witching hour. I understand and appreciate your explanation.


I watch these folks all night both on video and on a polygraph machine, if they are experiencing any form of hallucination its because they are waking out of REM sleep. It does occasionally happen when a patient wakes up too rapidly during REM sleep and they can experience both Sleep paralysis and/or hypnogogic hallucinations. There is nothing real about what they are experiencing, it’s a dream that has intruded into wake as they have woken too rapidly.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
L5/S1 or the T3


I cannot tell you this as I am not sure what you are referring too. I think you mean vertebrae, but I am not sure. Either way I’ll have to look into that a bit after you explain it further. A lot of our sleep patients have back issues, but that is normally due to aging in general and calcium depletion, I am not sure if there is any connections to sleep per say. However having a sleep disorder can affect a lot of other parts of your body, things such as blood pressure, heart, mental stability, etc.



Originally posted by Southpaw11
Tell me why completely unrelated people describe the same events... and they are NOT quoting ANYTHING YOU nor anybody else if gonna find on the internet ANYWHERE?


People that have sleep paralysis have a specific set of hallucinations that are common to them. If there is a reason as to why that is, then it relates to the chemical that is secreted to paralyze the muscle and its effect on the brain.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
And guess what... 0300 is the witching hour.


Yes, because the normal person has increasingly deep REM periods that are connected with the circadian rhythm of your body. This is connected with certain visual stimuli such as the sun. So throughout history there have been people that have experienced sleep apnea at 0300. Often when sleep apnea gets to be severe it can cause serious O2 desaturation, which can in turn affect the sympathetic/parasympathetic nervous system and cause the heart to go into an arrhythmia. Since many folks would have heart attacks at this time of the night, many superstitions rose up around it.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
So 3am IS significant. Think about it this way. If YOU were the adversary, and you were going to implement unconditional methods to overtake your prey... LIKE THEY DO... You would look for their points of vulnerability.


Again, I have plenty of people that wake up at 0300 in the sleep lab, and there are no aliens to be seen anywhere. No offence.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
Yes, but what about the abductees who are NOT suffering from sleep apnea, yet demonstrate the same trait? What then?

Again body core temperature also shifts at night in accordance with the bodies circadian rhythm, so you have to show that they are not craving salt due to sweating throughout the night.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
So, in summary, your arguments are NOT invalid. Not at all. But what you've done is found a "comfort zone" that explains ONE possible explanation about that to which I refer. I think you've done well... but even though those explanations are plausible...

Thank you and I would like to continue this conversation, but this may not be the thread for it. If you have another thread, please attach the URL…



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by Frozenthought
Check out this UFO photo taken over Lake Ontario in 2004, look familiar?


[edit on 12-2-2007 by Frozenthought]


Yes, it does; it looks like an airliner.



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 03:55 AM
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Originally posted by Southpaw11
These are not aircraft. Denial is not a safe place to live either... LOL... I see your point...


I dont think I live in denial; I have only ever seen one thing in the sky that I could not right out explain, and I had to dismiss that thing because there was a “reasonable doubt” as to whether I was seeing a laser being fired from the space shuttle as part of an atmospheric study done that night by NASA. Believe me I have worked nights and evenings for much of my life, and being an aviation and space enthusiast I scan the heavens more then most people. Don’t you ever wonder why more astronomers don’t have UFO sightings, considering they are the ones that are out there looking the most?


Believe me though I would love to see a real UFO.... Well.... As long as I was not alone in the woods or something…




Originally posted by Southpaw11
and whomever brought in the ATC graphic... VERY WELL DONE! I want to know where you obtained that data...


I believe that you’re referring to the flight tracker data or flight explorer. Flight tracker should be used by anyone that wants to be credible in researching any anomaly in the sky because it can quickly and painlessly eliminate commercial aircraft from the possible sources. I believe that flight tracker only shows ACARS equipped commercial and freight aircraft; I am not sure about military or civilian, but I doubt it. If the person that filmed this had a laptop on an RF network they could look at exactly where they were filming in real time and see any commercial air traffic in the area.

I am not sure if you have to pay for it though, I have never really played around with it much myself.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
We do NOT know what they are... but we DO know they show up when the scent of sulfur does... and when noises on the roof show up... and when LOCKED doors somehow just pop open... and little orbs of light show up in the living room... red marks appear on chests... puncture wounds appear inside elbows... vivid dreams of aliens and other crazy stuff occur... And, last but certainly not least...

THEY ALL REPORT WAKING BETWEEN 0300 and 0400.


U2U me when you get the chance, I am near Ocala, and I would like to know where to go in that area to observe this myself.



Originally posted by Southpaw11
Be excellent to each other...


Good point, and lets not forget…
Party On Dude…




[edit on 2/12/2007 by defcon5]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 03:59 AM
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FROZENTHOUGHT
Negative. you are doing just fine. If you think you are alone, bro... take the time just to see this... you are NOT alone... not by a longshot.

Here's the deal. This whole UFO thing... it's turned into a frenzy. We know it's there, we know we've been lied to...

People have to understand that the deception is NOT the only thing past which we must navigate.

FEAR is a HUGE factor in this. Whether today you believe in God, Jesus, Heaven, etc... or not is of no consequence to this point of conversation... If you were a child that prayed to God EVER...

Then YOU have got a deeply rooted FEAR of death... you have got a deeply rooted FEAR of the unknown. It takes a VERY courageous step to cast off the blinders, my friend. And we're talking about those who WANT to believe... otherwise they wouldn't be here. Even the most negative ones... they would have something better to do than come in here and harass people dealing with victimization by an extraterrestrial "invasion force".

AND... that's not to say that the "bad ones" are a BAD THING... because ultimately... THEY have an opinion... and as foolish as we might think it is... that NEGATIVE opin can only drive YOU or ME to go find MORE PROOF.

The challenge is a strange beast. You have to engage the Challenge completely... or else it will eat you up chew on your head and then spit you out sideways in nonchalant rage...

The skeptic...

One of my best friends from my youth is now Legal Counsel to one of the Secretaries of State (not telling which state to preserve his privacy). He is my SCULLY. That guy could debunk your own birth and you would believe him! He's THAT good.

I cherish his assanine remarks, his closed up brain, his steadfast ridicule and constant mocking. Funny thing is... underneath it all... HE wants me to be RIGHT!! XFiles is his favorite show... and it came as no surprise to me when he named on of his children after an xfiles character... LOL!

So YOU are doing JUST FINE FrozenThought.

CHERISH THE CHALLENGE. BLEED ALONG THE WAY.

That's how we learn. That's how we grow.

SPout



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by lagos

Originally posted by Frozenthought
Check out this UFO photo taken over Lake Ontario in 2004, look familiar?


[edit on 12-2-2007 by Frozenthought]


Yes, it does; it looks like an airliner.



Okay. Let's summarize then.

1) it looks like an airliner with landing lights on
2) it looks like the imagery from frozenthought's vid

where's the nearest airport? what type of traffic does it support? was there a "heavy" in this area at this time?

If you can ascertain that data, you can eliminate "airliner" as viable.

fair enough?


As far as Frozen's vid... I looked at the flight tracker data... NONE of those aircraft could have been THOSE anomolies. Aircraft do NOT stack themselves upon each other... neither do choppers, for that matter.

Gentlemen... we have an "anomoly".

Now what?

*evilgrin*

My vote is focus on the abduction side, and not the craft. The craft is the delivery vehicle for your DNA folks. The sooner we admit blue is blue, the sooner we move on to the next color... so let's start proving with verifiable data.

and remember...

WHEN THE VERIFIABLE DATA RUNS OUT... IS NOT NECESSARILY WHEN THE 'ANOMOLY' DOES...

Just b/c you have something that is ONE "permutation of explanation" does NOT necessarily mean you have THE explanation. And this applies in both camps.

RESERVE JUDGEMENT

SPout



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 04:26 AM
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Originally posted by Southpaw11
was there a "heavy" in this area at this time?


It does not have to be a heavy aircraft to have that landing light configuration. If you look back to the first or second page you will see that I link photo’s of commuter aircraft and private aircraft that have this two light configuration.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
what type of traffic does it support?


While airport size may affect a wide body, many narrow body commercial aircraft can land on a typical small runway. A DC-9, Dehavland, or Bach would have no problem landing at my little private airport around the corner from my place, if they were privately owned aircraft. Of course commuters can land there, but wont because there is no terminal services to provide for passengers.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
Aircraft do NOT stack themselves upon each other...


ATC regularly stacks aircraft at so many feet of separation depending on the size of the aircraft due to wake turbulence. Doubly so on approach. Most airports land 3 then let 3 take off, so they stack the incoming 3 so they can get in and off the runway rapidly to let the outgoing 3 have their runway time. I am sure that the number varies by airport and time of day, like late at night when most flights are coming in to terminate and very few are leaving, then they obviously let more land in a row then take off. 3 in, 3 out seems to be pretty standard at most airports I have been exposed too though…

Also, even though it looks like the aircraft are very close together you have to remember that you’re looking at a 2 dimensional picture of a 3 dimensional event, so even though it appears that they are right on top of each other, one is a mile or so behind the other.



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by Southpaw11
and florescence...


What do you mean by waking up with florescence btw?
What, they glow in the dark?


Originally posted by Southpaw11
then they wake up with puncture wounds and red splotches...
red marks appear on chests... puncture wounds appear inside elbows...


Let’s talk about scoops for a second…
What are scoops?
Well, let me tell you a little story that happened right on this board one night.
I was in chat and a new user came in complaining about a “red triangle” that appeared on his ankle after a night of Ghost hunting in some remote location in Australia. He had a thread on the topic, and thought that perhaps he had been attacked by something at the location he had been too. I took one look at the pictures he had posted and told him that he had an insect bite, possibly a necrotic one. Another member in chat told him to check out a specific type of Australian spider as the cause. Well, I guess we did a pretty good job, and it ended up being exactly what it was, as he came back and thanked us for the help. Now this wound had all the same features of what Ufologists call scoops.

Why do they occur at night?
First off many insects are nocturnal. Secondly, because when you’re running around all day you are only affected by flying insects, and most of us see and kill them off pretty quick when they are in our house. It’s the nocturnal insects that are hiding in your room that come out, and interact with you while your laying still for 8 or so hours at night, that cause 90% or your scoops. The other cause are skin blemishes such as blocked follicles that appear during the night due to oil excreted on your skin, and are scratched off by the person, unknowingly, in their sleep.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
but what about the abductees who are NOT suffering from sleep apnea, yet demonstrate the same trait?


How do you know they are not suffering from sleep apnea, do you screen all your abduction cases with a PSG to check for this first?

How do you know that they don’t have a case of narcolepsy, do you have them screened with an PSG followed by an MSLT?

You know this bit kind of bothers me, I have to sit here and wonder how many folks don’t get the medical treatment they might require because they are lead to believe that they are in fact experiencing some paranormal event rather then a medical issue…

What if the guy mentioned above’s wound had turned necrotic because we told him that it had in-fact been some paranormal thing instead of using a bit of logic first? Would he have lost his foot?
Do you ever consider that its possible that in doing some of this research that you might actually be hurting the folks you're trying to help?

Would you take responsibility if you misdiagnosed one of those people and they ended up having a heart attack in their sleep, or a traffic accident falling asleep behind the wheel, or lost a limb because a scoop turned necrotic?

[edit on 2/12/2007 by defcon5]



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