Did Jesus Exist -- The Probing Mind

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Alone? Separated by countries, with no way to speak to each other at the time?

I've already said that people will die for the most stupid of beliefs. It doesn't matter where they are. If they become convinced that their beliefs are worth dying for, they will die for them. Doesn't matter whether they be true or not.

It's all rather simple. We see it happening all the time.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

no, i'm not searching

Yes, you are searching. Searching for a way to convince me no god exists. But, you are neither arrogant or delusional, are you?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
to assert that god certainly exists is both arrogant and delusional

But, you are searching. This is neither an arrogant nor delusional statement, but rather an observation.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
to assert that god certainly does not exist is also arrogant and delusional

Why does madnessinmysoul tell me i shouldn't trust accounts supposedly written in 70 a.d. because they were written at least 40 years after the crucifixion, due to evidence written in books by people with atheistic agendas in .....

Source/Link:
www.atheists.org...

REFERENCES

1. ... 1972 .... 1987 ...1978

2. ...

3. ....

4. .... 1987 .... 1955

5. .... 1979

6. ....

7. ... 1945

8. .... 1975

9. .... 1995

10. .... 1982

11. .... 1929

12. .... 1981

13. ... 1900

14. .....

15. 1912

Madnessinmysoul,

You post that written accounts of Jesus that are written 40 years after his death can not be trusted.

Yet, you justify these claims with a link that uses for references books written 1,900+ years later?


[edit on 21-1-2007 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by melatonin
We see it happening all the time.

Cool. Name one instance of persecution unto death of any other faith. Atleast one instance where there were, let's say two minimum killed who were separated from each other and could have exposed their fictitious belief as a lie and gone free, but didn't.

I don't see it happening all the time, of course I don't travel to the ends of the earth frequently, so I may be in the dark. In fact, I only know of it happening to ones who have faith in Jesus Christ alone and none other.

Educate me.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

And here's the rest of the article

remember, read the entire article before you post

I'm sorry madness.

I've read through the link three times, and there are 2 possibilities as to why i will no longer post in this thread. Neither reason having anything to do with you, whatsoever.

Possible reasons i can't participate in this thread:

1) The article convinced me that jesus did not ever really exist.

2) There are so many flawed assumptions in that article, so many loaded words, so many refutable statements, i wouldn't know where to begin, and i don't feel i have to prove billions of people wrong.

Perhaps Athiests are right.

Perhaps humans are as succesfull as we are and have advanced to such greatness because of our own internal devices ....

or at least the GREATEST human device:

Instinct to be: "Selfish before we Serve Anything or Anyone"

This is what the human cell is: "Selfish prior to everything else"

We are the accumilation of our cells, therefore we are the manifestation of Selfishness.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Cool. Name one instance of persecution unto death of any other faith. Atleast one instance where there were, let's say two minimum killed who were separated from each other and could have exposed their fictitious belief as a lie and gone free, but didn't.

If you want religious martyrs, you should examine some of the early islamic martyrs. They do exist.

Sumayyah binte Khabbab

Ahmad Ibn Nasr al-Khuza'i

Now, are you going to convert to islam because these people died for their beliefs?

A scientific martyr - Giordano Bruno, burned to death during the inquisition (nobody expects the inquisition). I'm sure many other did as well.

Socrates - sentenced to death for questioning the state

Those are just a few old martyrs. Many people die for beliefs. Your argument is a vacuous one.

I don't see it happening all the time, of course I don't travel to the ends of the earth frequently, so I may be in the dark. In fact, I only know of it happening to ones who have faith in Jesus Christ alone and none other.

Educate me.

Christians are not special. Lots of people have died for their beliefs.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Alone? Separated by countries, with no way to speak to each other at the time?

I've already said that people will die for the most stupid of beliefs. It doesn't matter where they are. If they become convinced that their beliefs are worth dying for, they will die for them. Doesn't matter whether they be true or not.

It's all rather simple. We see it happening all the time.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

So what's it to you?

Do you think you are somehow superior to them? Don't forget, you are gonna die too.

I applaud them for at least believing something is worth dying for.

Do you believe anything is worth dying for?

Originally posted by thehumbleone
So what's it to you?

Do you think you are somehow superior to them? Don't forget, you are gonna die too.

I applaud them for at least believing something is worth dying for.

Do you believe anything is worth dying for?

Now there's the problem. You should focus on what I actually say.

I didn't say 'people who die for their beliefs are stupid'. I don't agree with that.

I said 'people will die for the most stupid of beliefs'. I do agree with that.

Can you see the difference?

I am convinced there are things worth giving my life for.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

I didn't say 'people who die for their beliefs are stupid'. I don't agree with that.

I said 'people will die for the most stupid of beliefs'. I do agree with that.

Well, if they're stupid enough to die for something you believe is stupid, then they must be stupid because what they believe is considered stupid therefore they are stupid. :w:

Esoteric Teacher, just want to point out something about the article
it in no way is supposed to actually convince you that "jesus" (i use quotes whenever i call a supposed ancient ethnic hebrew by a greek name) was not a historical figure
i just used it because, though i found it lacking myself, it made me question

also, when i said i wasn't searching, i meant i wasn't specifically searching for god
i'm just searching
that's all life is
a quest

here's how i see life
you are born
you learn
you love and are loved
you suffer
steps 2, 3, and 4 repeat in different orders
and then you die

i'm just trying to fit in as much of step 2 as possible on this forum





[edit on 1/21/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Well, if they're stupid enough to die for something you believe is stupid, then they must be stupid because what they believe is considered stupid therefore they are stupid.

:w:

I don't think that is what I said. That is what you want me to say.

I'll make it a tad clearer for you, plain simple english...

People will die for the most stupid of beliefs.

For example, dying because a comet has been interpreted as a signal that a spaceship is ready to take you on a journey to wherever is a stupid belief. I reckon the people who died for this belief need not be stupid, just brainwashed, mentally-disturbed, or some other explanation.

Furthermore, I support their right to do this. If they want to take their life in the hope of getting in the cockpit of the millennium falcon, fine. Personal choice. They directly hurt no-one but themselves. However, I'm sure you think it was an unholy sin and therefore inherently wrong.

But, in my opinion, it was a stupid belief to die for. I am entitled to the opinion, as you are entitled to your bastardised misinterpretation of my words.

Another example, a man in Brazil believed that the best way to open a rocket-propelled grenade was with a sledgehammer. He put this belief into action and promptly blew himself to pieces. That was a stupid belief. In this case, it is quite possible that the man was stupid. However, it is more likely he didn't understand what he was really doing. He just wanted scrap-metal.

Here's another...

August 2006, Libreville, Gabon) In August, a congregation's 35-year old pastor insisted one could literally walk on water, if one only had enough faith. Big and bold was his speech. He extolled the heavenly power possessed by a faithful man with such force that he may well have convinced himself. Whether or not he believed in his heart, his sermons left room for only shame should he leave his own faith untested. Thus, the pastor set out to walk across a major estuary, the path of a 20-minute ferry ride. But the man could not swim.

Lacking the miraculous powers of David Copperfield, let alone holy Jesus Christ, this ill-fated cleric found only a Darwin Award at the end of his final path.

Stupid or not, you decide...

[edit on 22-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
August 2006, Libreville, Gabon) In August, a congregation's 35-year old pastor insisted one could literally walk on water, if one only had enough faith.

He was right. Yet, who have you seen walk on water lately that wasn't frozen over?

Yea and Jesus said that if one has faith the size of a mustard seed that one can speak to a mountain, tell it to move and it will.

How many have you seen do this? Do you know how little a mustard seed is?

I give you examples of other people who died for their beliefs, those you wanted to be educated about, and the best you can do is talk about mustard seeds...oh well, I'm used to ungrateful students, get to the end of the semester and most never show any appreciation.

I think humble might want to place you in his mental prophecy box, am I seeing elements of ungratefulness and pride here?

Originally posted by kokoro
The fact that the Jesus story, the only source being the "New Testament", is identical to the so called divine lives of numberous pagan dieties before him is telling.

Jesus was created to control the masses. They incorporated all of these pagan elements into his story because they were familiar to the pagan populus. In this way they easily converted the gentiles to thier new religion bacause thier concept of G-d was similar.

Thus, Jesus is only a recent continuation of a "human G-d" pagan belief system that existed long before Christianity. He never existed.

At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar. Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:

Were born on or very near our Christmas Day
Were born of a Virgin-Mother
Were born in a Cave or Underground Chamber
Led a life of toil for Mankind
Were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior, Deliverer
Were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness
And descended into Hell or the Underworld
Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world
Founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism
Were commemorated by Eucharistic meals
Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki; the Savior Dionysus was born of the virgin Semele. Buddha too was born of a virgin, as were the Egyptian Horus and Osiris. The old Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the heavenly Spirit and bore a son. Scandinavian Frigga was impregnated by the All-Father Odin and bore Balder, the healer and savior of mankind.

Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was originally the pagan birthday of Mithras, the sun god, whose day of the week is still known as "Sunday." The halo of light which is usually shown surrounding the face of Jesus and Christian saints, is another concept taken from the sun god. The theme of temptation by a devil-like creature was also found in pagan mythology. In particular, the story of Jesus's temptation by Satan resembles the temptation of Osiris by the devil-god Set in Egyptian mythology.

Please show evidence these other gods existed



Oh, and Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25th.

I completely agree that Constantine screwed up christianity by conforming to his previous pagan religion. Almost all of the celebrations in christianity have pagan origins. Easter, Christmas... just to name a few.

But the Bible definitely doesn't say he was born on specific day. Rather it points to more around springtime.

[edit on 22-1-2007 by tylersch]

Originally posted by tylersch
Please show evidence these other gods existed

Umm... thats exactly my point, they didnt, they are all myths.


It doesnt bother you that the details of Jesus' life as portrayed in the christian bible exactly match the details of the llives of countless other mythical dieties worshiped before his supposed time?

And here is another interesting thing. Why if Jesus was a real and a divine being sent here to change history and have a great influence on man is he not mentioned at all by writers and historians of the time. Jewish literature mentions hundreds of "messiah claims" throughout history and in his supposed time this was fairly common for someone to claim to be the messiah. Why is he never mentioned in any other source except the christian bible?

There is no reference to Jesus' death having any redeeming function; in fact, there is no mention of the crucifixion at all. John E. Remsburg's The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence, lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived:

Josephus
Philo-Judææus
Seneca
Pliny Elder
Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Pliny Younger
Tacitus
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Hermogones Silius Italicus
Statius
Ptolemy
Appian
Phlegon
Phæædrus
Valerius Maximus
Lucian
Pausanias
Florus Lucius
Quintius Curtius
Aulus Gellius
Dio Chrysostom
Columella
Valerius Flaccus
Damis
Favorinus
Lysias
Pomponius Mela
Appion of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna

Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, according to Remsburg, "aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, do any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles ...[/e]

[edit on 22-1-2007 by kokoro]

Originally posted by melatonin
I give you examples of other people who died for their beliefs, those you wanted to be educated about, and the best you can do is talk about mustard seeds...oh well, ...

I wasn't talking about mustard seeds was I? I's comparing the size of one's faith to the size of one. My simplicity must be too much for your complexity.

Ok as far as the ones dying for their beliefs. I know I wasn't critical enough when questioning. I left you too many doors open. My stupidity.

Did those die because of a relationship with a man claiming that believing on him was the absolute only way to gain eternal life (be with the creator forever)?

Forgive me, I know I'm adjusting on you, but actually this may turn out to be more effective. None of us know it all, whether we act like it or not. Only in part, and if that in some cases.


_________________________________________________________________________
No need to comment on this and is OT but; Wanted to let you know I've been into your video and it's quite educational. The guy is brilliant. Just a shame wasn't given that mustard seed.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
I wasn't talking about mustard seeds was I? I's comparing the size of one's faith to the size of one. My simplicity must be too much for your complexity.

Nah, I know what you mean, I just didn't want to ignore the point I made.

Did those die because of a relationship with a man claiming that believing on him was the absolute only way to gain eternal life (be with the creator forever)?

I can't really say. The muslim martyrs died because they were muslims and retained their belief. Sumayyah was apparently the seventh islam convert and was tortured but refused to leave the faith, then she was executed by Abu Jahl.

The other guy was crucified for being a muslim.

Buddhists, zoroastrians, cathars, jews, and pagans have all died for their beliefs. So have pacifists and, I'm sure, people for other beliefs.

No need to comment on this and is OT but; Wanted to let you know I've been into your video and it's quite educational. The guy is brilliant. Just a shame wasn't given that mustard seed.

He's a very good lecturer. Not sure if I misinterpret you there, but Ken Miller is actually a christian and theistic evolutionist. He gave evidence at the Dover ID trial.

[edit on 22-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
I can't really say. The muslim martyrs died because they were muslims and retained their belief. Sumayyah was apparently the seventh islam convert and was tortured but refused to leave the faith, then she was executed by Abu Jahl.

The other guy was crucified for being a muslim.

Buddhists, zoroastrians, cathars, jews, and pagans have all died for their beliefs. So have pacifists and, I'm sure, people for other beliefs.

Other than just getting killed, none of those can be compared in similar enough way to brush off Jesus Christ. They just can't.

Originally posted by melatonin
He's a very good lecturer. Not sure if I misinterpret you there, but Ken Miller is actually a christian and theistic evolutionist.

Who believes his creator is a liar along with those who follow the creator, if not readily promotes a lie, without first consulting his creator.

I know this will shake the hornets nest up, but for those of us that he knows and know him. There is no way in heaven or earth or under the earth that we can deny him. Sure we have the free will to. I can only speak for myself when I say that the Holy Spirit would break me to pieces before it'd allow such a statement to leave my lips. It's a governing power that no man can deny if he has him.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Other than just getting killed, none of those can be compared in similar enough way to brush off Jesus Christ. They just can't.

Yeah, I guessed you'd say something like that. A muslim who refuses to deny their faith is not the same as a christian doing the same. Cool.

Who believes his creator is a liar along with those who follow the creator, if not readily promotes a lie, without first consulting his creator.

No, I think he probably believes that parts of the bible are metaphorical, I'm not sure.

But if you are cliaming that the bible is 100% inerrant truth, that god produced those words, then he is either a liar or he is wrong, or more likely you are wrong.

I'm sorry to say but Genesis is wrong. It cannot be taken literally. Homo Sapiens did not live with dinosaurs, a world-wide Noahic flood did not happen, the world is not 10,000yrs old.

Those are the irrefutable facts. Start a thread if you want YEC creationism to be eviscerated.

Originally posted by kokoro

Originally posted by tylersch
Please show evidence these other gods existed

Umm... thats exactly my point, they didnt, they are all myths.

Can you please post links to show where you are getting your information, and how we know these myths to this day.

[edit on 22-1-2007 by tylersch]

Originally posted by melatonin
Yeah, I guessed you'd say something like that. A muslim who refuses to deny their faith is not the same as a christian doing the same. Cool.

It ain't the same. Did Muhammad raise from the dead and ascend to "allah"? Was Muhammad before Abraham? Nup.

As far as Genesis is concerned. It happened exactly as it is written. You will see. When exactly? I don't know, but you'll see. All will.