Did Jesus Exist -- The Probing Mind

Originally posted by rocknroll
God is "supernatural",
Isn't that obvious?

Oh, that's right, you don't believe.
Nevermind.

Well, yeah, he's conceived as having super powers. If he came down and did some of his stuff, it would seem almost like magic (and that isn't meant to be disrespectful, just an attempt to show why I used the word before)


[edit on 20-1-2007 by melatonin]

well, it's not really a logical argument. If it didn't exist I wouldn't be able to see it.

Actually it is a logical argument because you DO exist and you CAN see it, therefore you can ask the questions "why do I exist?", "why does something exist"", " How can something come out of nothing?"

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Actually it is a logical argument because you DO exist and you CAN see it, therefore you can ask the questions "why do I exist?", "why does something exist"", " How can something come out of nothing?"

But it need not lead to conclude god. That is the illogical part.

If something can't come from nothing, then you need to explain how god came to be as I assume he is something. If god doesn't need a cause, then it is no less logical to conclude neither did the universe.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Actually it is a logical argument because you DO exist and you CAN see it, therefore you can ask the questions "why do I exist?", "why does something exist"", " How can something come out of nothing?"

But it need not lead to conclude god. That is the illogical part.

If something can't come from nothing, then you need to explain how god came to be as I assume he is something. If god doesn't need a cause, then it is no less logical to conclude neither did the universe.

Yes, but science say the universe had a beginning, hence the flaw in the argument.

Melatonin, despite my differing views with you, you seem like a bright individual.
You seem curious about "all this stuff" or else you wouldn't be glued to these threads. LOL! Right? It should be said that I am not a fundamentalist, a born-again, a bible thumper. I haven't even been to church in quite awhile (one of my sins, LOL). I am truly a man that loves my God and my Jesus. I am faaaaar from perfect. But I do know what I'm supposed to be doing (although I don't always do it). As we talked earlier......."my spirit is strong, but my flesh is weak". Okay? That being said, don't think I'm putting myself up on a throne and being a condescending Christian towards you. I'm not. All I'm doing is handing you the truth about what I now know to be the Truth. When you find the Truth, you are excited and want others to know, because it changes your life. Gives it new meaning. I've been reading lots of holy books over the years by theologians, saints, holy men, etc. I've picked up alot along the way.

I read a great book months back that really makes you think. It's kinda "heady" reading. But I've seen you make some real heady posts, so I think you'll grasp it well. It's a book called, "Life Everlasting - A Theological Treatise on the Four Last Things — Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell" by Garrigou-Lagrange. I think that you would truly enjoy this read. It will make you think of things you've never thought before about your soul.....and most importantly, everything you read will start to ring true. If you are curious about your soul and many of the questions you have presented here, than I really recommend you track this book down and give it a thorough read. I think you'll like it.

Humble, I recommend it to you to. It's a great book about the human soul.

www.tanbooks.com...:flypage/product_id/349/

www.amazon.com...

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Yes, but science say the universe had a beginning, hence the flaw in the argument.

well, the universe had a "beginning" in only the loosest of ways
sure, it "began" with a big bang
but there's no way to figure out how long the matter and energy in the universe have been around

so, sure, OUR universe had a beginning
but matter and energy are probably eternal

Never thought Id be voting an athiesit for the way above top secret award in the faith and spirituality forum but alas it has happened.

I admire your resolve in dispelling the "Jesus myth".

Originally posted by kokoro
I admire your resolve in dispelling the "Jesus myth".

I guess being Jewish doesn't have anything to do with that, huh?
How antichristian of you. Live in a glass house?
:shk:

Originally posted by rocknroll

Originally posted by kokoro
I admire your resolve in dispelling the "Jesus myth".

I guess being Jewish doesn't have anything to do with that, huh?
How antichristian of you. Live in a glass house?
:shk:

Hmm, when again did I ever say I was Jewish? Actually, im not but thanks for clearing that up...

Even if I was how is that any different than you assuming that the New testament is an accurate depiction of the life of Jesus jsut because you are Christian? What was that you were saying about glass houses?

[edit on 21-1-2007 by kokoro]

[edit on 21-1-2007 by kokoro]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Yes, but science say the universe had a beginning, hence the flaw in the argument.

If you are talking about the big-bang, we know that something came before, it's an infinitely hot and dense state called a singularity. At this point, we can't assess for certain where this came from. It may be possible that the universe has been cycling from expansion to heat death, then exapnsion etc. That is just one of the many hypotheses/models we have (Turok & Steinhardt). Universes may also be born within black holes (Lee Smolin).

Who knows? I don't and neither do you.

Originally posted by rocknroll
Melatonin, despite my differing views with you, you seem like a bright individual.

Thanks. Maybe, but I know many who are much brighter than myself.

You seem curious about "all this stuff" or else you wouldn't be glued to these threads. LOL! Right?

I'm more curious about motivations and beliefs. But, yeah, there are questions that do not have answers. I just refuse to plug them with what I consider to be non-answers.

www.tanbooks.com...:flypage/product_id/349/

www.amazon.com...

I can't promise to read it, I have way tooooo much stuff in my 'to read' pile, which tends to get bigger every week. But, if I ever get to the bottom and have room for it, I will.

alright
nice little tangent we went on
now
let us go back to the discussion at hand

is one of the truths of the myth of "jesus" that the figure of "jesus" existed as a historical figure?

The thing is is this. If we had time travel capabilities and took these select few back and showed them every second of Jesus' life on earth including being crucified. The body preparation, being placed in the tomb. The resurrection and ascension. They still wouldn't believe it. Their demons would have some excuse yet and still. If you can't see, you can't see. It's been a hard one for me to settle, within myself, but it's a fact.

The fact that the Jesus story, the only source being the "New Testament", is identical to the so called divine lives of numberous pagan dieties before him is telling.

Jesus was created to control the masses. They incorporated all of these pagan elements into his story because they were familiar to the pagan populus. In this way they easily converted the gentiles to thier new religion bacause thier concept of G-d was similar.

Thus, Jesus is only a recent continuation of a "human G-d" pagan belief system that existed long before Christianity. He never existed.

At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar. Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:

Were born on or very near our Christmas Day
Were born of a Virgin-Mother
Were born in a Cave or Underground Chamber
Led a life of toil for Mankind
Were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior, Deliverer
Were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness
And descended into Hell or the Underworld
Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world
Founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism
Were commemorated by Eucharistic meals
Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki; the Savior Dionysus was born of the virgin Semele. Buddha too was born of a virgin, as were the Egyptian Horus and Osiris. The old Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the heavenly Spirit and bore a son. Scandinavian Frigga was impregnated by the All-Father Odin and bore Balder, the healer and savior of mankind.

Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was originally the pagan birthday of Mithras, the sun god, whose day of the week is still known as "Sunday." The halo of light which is usually shown surrounding the face of Jesus and Christian saints, is another concept taken from the sun god. The theme of temptation by a devil-like creature was also found in pagan mythology. In particular, the story of Jesus's temptation by Satan resembles the temptation of Osiris by the devil-god Set in Egyptian mythology.

OK, well I've just finsihed watching a lecture from Dr. Gene Scott. His main argument for the validity of christianity is that christianity is unique. No other religion possesses a god-man at its center who claimed to be able to remove sin.

He states that there is a dichotomy with the bible. Either Jesus was a fraud/liar or he was exactly what the NT says he was. The bible makes many claims that seem impossible and only because he was exactly as the bible claims him to be was he able to get away with this. That as soon as Jesus died and then supposedly ressurected, the words of his divinity were spread, unlike Buddha which took 600 years to reach this point.

In essence, the bible makes extraordinary claims and therefore it must be true.

Well, not exactly a solid argument. It really doesn't answer anything, just spurious claims. Considering we have not one single word from the mouth of the man himself, we are not talking about whether Jesus was a liar or fraud, but whether the writers of the bible were.

These people can't even get the birth date of jesus correct, we have zombies walking the streets when he died, and an eclipse that didn't happen.

As Madness suggests, we have possibly a few words from a good moral teacher, the source of the stories. The rest is the usual exaggeration and fiction that is quite common in those days (and even now - santa has a kernal of truth)

Most of historical references outside the bible are well after the time, a couple of generations at least. Many are still contested for their source, as possible later additions by christians, some just talk about people who talk about Jesus. None actually really validates the main point - that he was some sort of godly human.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
Well, not exactly a solid argument.

Why would so many die brutal deaths ALONE when they could have easily renounced Jesus Christ and explained it was a lie, and lived.

Originally posted by WiseSheep

Originally posted by melatonin
Well, not exactly a solid argument.

Why would so many die brutal deaths ALONE when they could have easily renounced Jesus Christ and explained it was a lie, and lived.

The same way that people die for many different kinds of belief. It's nothing new.

Originally posted by melatonin
The same way that people die for many different kinds of belief. It's nothing new.

Nope. I did a quick scan of my brain. You can't compare it to Islam because, they preach convert or die. You have a choice to accept Jesus Christ, or die (the second death, as no one will actually cease to exist, ever) but Christianity is not enforced neither by GOD nor by anyone else. If whatever it is, is being forced it isn't Christianity.

Name me another religion that dies for their faith, alone and doesn't renounce all the way to death, even painful death.

If somebody stormed into your house, placed a loaded gun to your head and gave you ten seconds to answer if you'd die for your beliefs, what'd be the first thing to roll of your tongue. Think about the reality of that. This ain't some fairy tale.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Nope. I did a quick scan of my brain. You can't compare it to Islam because, they preach convert or die.

That's quite interesting, because living in the UK and working in a place with many international students, I've never had a muslim attempt to convert me, then when he failed, try to kill me.

In fact, I've never had a muslim try to convert me. That seems to be particular to one faith. In Palestine, Jews lived with muslims for a long time in peace before the mass migration of jews into palestine.

Name me another religion that dies for their faith, alone and doesn't renounce all the way to death, even painful death.

Many people in cults have died for their beliefs.

If somebody stormed into your house, placed a loaded gun to your head and gave you ten seconds to answer if you'd die for your beliefs, what'd be the first thing to roll of your tongue. Think about the reality of that. This ain't some fairy tale.

Again, not really convincing. People have died for the belief that a comet is a sign of the time to take a ride in a spaceship. People can with enough effort believe all kinds of ridiculous things and die for them.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
I've never had a muslim attempt to convert me, then when he failed, try to kill me.

In fact, I've never had a muslim try to convert me.

Apparently it's not enforced.

Just like now a day so called Christianity is alot of watered down, and in some cases, GOD loves everybody, everybody is in "christ" and he in them, and everybody goes to heaven, type lies.

AND/OR

Judgemental type people, who are blind to their own sin (1 John 1:8) yet expose everyone else's. That are literally more evil than, and have more in store for them than the one's who have never heard the truth.

Originally posted by melatonin
Many people in cults have died for their beliefs.

Alone? Separated by countries, with no way to speak to each other at the time?

Originally posted by melatonin
Again, not really convincing. People have died for the belief that a comet is a sign of the time to take a ride in a spaceship. People can with enough effort believe all kinds of ridiculous things and die for them.

Alone? Separated by countries, with no way to speak to each other at the time?

Peer pressure can make one do about anything. What if it's measly little you against say something like a swat team and surrounded, with absolutely no backup what so ever?

It'd be the outright stupidest thing anyone could do, to allow themselves to be killed because they believed in some crazy guy that never existed, who was fabricated by a bunch of liars several countries away. If it was a lie, one at least one of em, woulda squealed and gotten out of the outright horrifying experience they must have went through.