LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

Originally posted by dbrandt
Your fiancee has the means and ability to either come get you or get you a plane ticket out of there. He says, "No, go ahead and ride out the storm. ...How would that make you feel?

I'm not sure if I'm following your post ... but here goes....

How does it make me feel? Good question. I do think about that. And I do feel kinda ticked sometimes. So imagine all those hundreds of thousands of poeple who believe that they are going to get the easy-out and then they don't. What will happen to their faith?? It will be dust in the wind. THAT is why this is a dangerous teaching.

God has the ability to take his believers out of the tribulations. I agree.

Will he? No. He never has before and he isn't going to now. He didn't lift up those poor frightened children out of a painful tsunami death; he left his saints to die by lions and torture; Christ's own apostles weren't lifted out; and he isn't going to lift the saints out of tribulations.

Historical fact. God leaves people here to tribulate and be martyred. And there are plenty of bible verses .. which have already been posted .. about how people who 'edure to the end will be blessed' and in revelations about how the martyrs under the altar were told that they had to wait until for all the martyrs who would be killed during tribulations .... they weren't lifted out either.

I already posted those quotes. I'm not going to go through them again.

Why does he leave them? He has His reasons. Their suffering and/or death could be a conversion for themselves; for others; whatever. It's God's world and He knows why He does what He does.

dbrant .. seriously ... belief in a pre-trib rapture is NOT necessary for salvation. It's not. And I find it a dangerous belief that will rob people of their faith when the tribulations come. It is much more important to spend the time bringing Christ to people and to live the Beatitudes than to insistantly spread a dangerous false hope that people are going to get a magic carpet ride out of here. When it doesn't come .... WHAM .. there goes faith out the window.

Can you see what I'm talking about? It's much better not to count on the easy-out because when tribulations hit (and we all have them throughout our lives) our faith will be in better shape rather than expecting an easy time of it. If by some strange reason God decides to lift people out of the tribulations, then it will be a happy surprise.

I also find the whole notion of people thinking that they are going to be lifted out to be arrogant - which is anti-spiritual. I also find it unsettling to see people so joyful at the prospect of themselves not suffering but leaving others behind to suffer in stupidity.

Sun Matrix, Valhall:

Sun Matrix >> I'm really not quite sure what you mean about inserting letters as I copied that from one of your previous posts. I have no problem with any of the verses. Verse 3 says that the DAY OF THE LORD will not happen until the man of sin be revealed. The DAY OF THE LORD is NOT....NOT...NOT...the gathering together that Paul is talking about. Paul is talking about the catching away.

Man-0-man. You guys think that name calling tactics (deceiver and Gnostic) mean something, because your arguments cannot withstand the test of meaningful debate. Paul just told the Thessalonians that the “day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) has not even come. 2Thes. 2:2. He connected our gathering (Rapture = 1Thes. 4:17) to when the “Day of the Lord” is ‘at hand.’ The events of 2Thessalonians 2:3+4 are included “IN HIS TIME” (2Thes. 2:6) of the “Day of the Lord” itself, which has NOT YET EVEN STARTED. Both of you fail to realize that Paul is contrasting the ‘physical’ coming (Matt. 24:15 +30-31) of the antichrist and Christ with the ‘spiritual’ gathering of the members to their respective bodies through the ‘mystery of iniquity’ (2Thes. 2:7) AND the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3). In other words, there is NO ‘physical’ coming of the antichrist OR Christ in this current ‘mystery’ time. That is IMPOSSIBLE, as both of you can clearly see there is NO TEMPLE in Jerusalem for the antichrist to ‘set up’ is ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13). Elijah MUST come first and restore all things to ISRAEL “After These Things” (Acts 15:16-18) of today. Therefore stop sitting there under the pretense that Christ’s Second Coming (Matt. 24) can occur at any time, because the ‘restrainer’ (2Thes. 2:6+7) working in the “Day of the Lord” prophecies forbid any such thing!

How will the Dome of the Rock be removed from the Temple site so Ezekiel’s Temple (Eze. 40+) can be restored? Have any of you a clue? To say Christ restores the Temple is foolishness, because everyone can see the antichrist standing in the “Holy Place” (Matt. 24:15) BEFORE Christ’s physical return LATER in Matthew 24:30+31. Elijah had to return some 1000 years EARLIER to begin the restoration of ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21-26), which includes the “tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18). In other words, the Temple and the Kingdom of Israel have been standing for almost 1000 years BEFORE the antichrist set’s up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15) very near the ‘end of the age.’ The Kingdom of Ezekiel 47+48 is just part of the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21) the ‘prophet’ (Acts 3:22+23) restores, before Satan is released (Rev. 20:7) and his ‘son of destruction’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) makes it desolate at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+). Valhall’s and Sun Matrix’s “Day of the Lord” has NO “1000 Years” DURATION, which accounts for their willingness to combine the events STARTING (1Thes. 4:16+17) that Period with those ENDING (Matt. 24) the same 1000 Years Period.

Sun Matrix >> He is saying that you did not miss the coming of Jesus and the gathering together (being caught away) Don't worry that the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand. First the Antichrist will be revealed. We know this, so don't be troubled.

No! He is saying not to be disturbed by a letter from ANYBODY that the “Day of Christ” had already STARTED. There is nothing in Paul’s words about these “Day of the Lord” events transpiring, BEFORE our gathering in 1Thes. 4:17 to START the 1000 years Day of the Lord. These Thessalonians had a greater chance of misunderstanding Paul’s words, because the Temple was still standing at the time he wrote both of these Epistles. However, you are without excuse, because No Temple is even standing to allow the ‘restrainer’ prophecies to begin (gospel of the kingdom to whole world = Matt. 24:14) so the second part (abomination of desolation = Matt. 24:15) can follow behind. Neither of you know the differences between the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) and our “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel of today ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ), as the “gospel of the kingdom” (Gospel #1 from that link) is ‘the gospel’ to be heralded by “Elijah” (like John the Baptist in Matt. 3:1-6) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. That gospel message will take 1000 Years to go into the whole world, so the restrainer properties of the Day of the Lord prophecies can allow the antichrist to enter the Holy Place restored in the Temple (Eze. 40+) restored BY ELIJAH! Who restores Sunny’s and Valhall’s Temple? Heh . . . They have not even begun to think that far into their flimsy interpretation . . .

Sun >> Let me make a suggestion if I might. I suggest that you compare the verses between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and determine if they are talking about the same thing.

LOL . . . How about if we focus upon Paul’s teachings (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:13-17) that START the 1000 Years and leave Christ’s “Olivet Discourse” Prophecies for the END of the 1000 Years?! You guys just run to the END OF THE AGE (Matt. 24:3+, Dan. 12:11-13) without knowing the difference. Both of you should be very embarrassed indeed . . .

Thank God this is NOT a salvation topic . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
Hi Byrd:

Byrd >> Actually, I'm not giving my interpretation. I'm using the interpretations written by other Christian scholars and looking for what the scholars of earlier ages said.

Of course not. Heh . . . That is the point. There are only so many ways to interpret Paul’s words in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, which renders the Thread Starter’s Hypothesis FALSE. We can all agree that LaHaye’s Interpretations on this topic are DEAD WRONG, but you are confusing his ‘eschatology’ of “end time” events with Paul’s teaching on the Rapture (1Thes. 4:17).

Not really.

The main conention of the original post of this thread was that the LaHaye slant/teaching that is so popular today was not an original teaching of the early Christians.

This has nothing to do with a rapture or the Rapture or anything else. It has to do with whether Paul and the earliest church fathers taught antichrist/tribulation/rapture/second coming/armageddon. Everyone got tangled up in the prebies/post-toasties arguments (the pre Tribulation rapture and post Tribulation rapture for those folks not familiar with the terms.)

In fact, I think that after things have gotten all hammered around here, everyone agrees that Paul wasn't teaching the LaHaye theology.

If you read the writings of both Protestant and Catholic notable scholars, you will see that such beliefs were generally not held by either sect until around the 1800's...and at that time it was only the Protestant sects that started the theology that LaHaye and Jenkins use as the basis in their "Left Behind" series. This was when the first churches (in the Protestant sect) formed that espoused the teachings that LaHaye himself espouses as a minister.

Before that, while individuals may have held these beliefs, it doesn't seem to be a belief of any sect or church.

Valhall (Sunny included):

Valhall >> Terral, I didn't see you come clean that this:

Valhall’s foolishness >> You, on the other hand, are pushing not only an unscriptural doctrine, but an anti-christ doctrine. You state that the gospel of Christ has not saved anyone in the past 2000 years, and that the Gospel of Paul is the only way to salvation.

Valhall’s Commentary on her foolishness >> ...is the anti-christ doctrine you're pushing. Why not? Those are your words, they're not mine. Why not own them...with pride.

You guys cast stones for the lack of any ability whatsoever to actually ‘debate’ this Gospel OR Rapture Topic. Knowing the differences between the two gospels of the NT is very important, since the ‘restrainer’ (2Thes. 2:6+7) attributes of the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) are interwoven into Christ’s “end of the age” prophecies. The two gospels of the NT are outlined as follows ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) (not in quotes for size benefits):

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This is NOT our gospel for today. Nobody has been saved by this Gospel message for almost 2000 years.
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I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:23 , Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, Acts 8:12). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The good news that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is ‘at hand’ (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 10:7). i.e., ‘preaching the kingdom.’ Acts 20:25.
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:16-17.
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the ‘forgiveness of sins.’ Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3; name of the Father; John 1:6, 33, Matthew 28:19.)
5. Baptism in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’ (Acts 8:16, Acts 19:5), ‘name of the Son’ (Matthew 28:19)
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the ‘name of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6).
7. Justified by ‘works and not by faith alone.’ James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18, James 2:10).

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This IS our gospel for today that many believe is the ‘only’ gospel of the New Testament with inclusions from Gospel #1. This gospel message was revealed to Paul (Gal. 1:11+12) AFTER his conversion in Acts 9. Note that Christ preached the ‘gospel of God’ in Mark 1:14-15, which is gospel #1 above.
--------------------

II. Paul’s “my gospel” (Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24.
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25.
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8-9.
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7).
5. Our ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) is done by the ‘one Spirit’ (Ephesians 4:4) into the ‘one body’ (1 Corinthians 12:13), which is into “Christ’s body.” 1 Corinthians 12:27.
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Rom. 10:17*) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) Paul’s Gospel by ‘hearing with faith*.’ Galatians 3:2.
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
-----------------------

The members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) in the world today preach Gospel #2 apart from any of the ‘works’ of Gospel #1 (gospel of the kingdom). Christ (Matt. 24:14) is saying that Gospel #2 must be preached to the whole world very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+), which will be reinstituted by Elijah (Matt. 17:10-11) coming in John the Baptist fashion (Matt. 3:1-6) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. If you will think about this carefully: All the members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) were just “caught up” (1Thes. 4:17) to START this 1000 Years period. That means no ‘preachers’ (Rom. 10:14) are walking around on the earth to initiate the ‘faith to faith’ (Rom. 1:17) transaction between the preacher and the one ‘hearing’ (Romans 10:17). However, Elijah is NOT here to continue building the “body of Christ,” because he is preparing the ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) for the ‘marriage supper of the Lamb’ (Rev. 19:5-10) taking place very near the end of the age some 1000 Years LATER.

The members of Christ’s body will be seated in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) judging the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3), as Satan’s heavenly seats (Eph. 6:12) were just vacated (passing away = 1Cor. 2:6) with his chaining (Rev. 20:2) that STARTED the 1000 Years. We see Elijah restore everything to Israel (Matt. 17:10-11) to START the 1000 Years AND the antichrist making those things desolate at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) some 1000 Years LATER. Paul’s Gospel #2 will be the ‘false gospel’ during the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, just like components of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ are being added to defile ‘our gospel’ (2Cor. 4:3+4) of today.

Very near the ‘end of the age’ Satan and his cronies were will incarnate upon this earth as mere men and THEY will reintroduce Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message as “the gospel” to deceive the world into mixing those things (faith only) with the works of the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Therefore, the work of mixing the water (kingdom) and blood (grace) ministries of Jesus Christ (1John 5:6) has been Satan’s job (2Cor. 11:14) through his ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) from the very beginning. These two fools calling me names are guilty of mixing all of these things together to the ‘destruction’ (2Pet. 3:14-16) of everyone around them and neither possess sufficient stature or maturity (1Cor. 2:6) “IN” Christ Jesus to even begin showing anyone the difference.

The secrets of men will be judged according to Paul’s “my gospel” (Romans 2:16 = #2) and neither of these cartoon characters know the difference! Those fingers pointing at me with their name calling tactics reveal three witnesses pointing straight back at them for the Day of Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). God will show everyone their folly, using their own words and attacks against me in that day.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Flyer:

Flyer >> I also find the whole notion of people thinking that they are going to be lifted out to be arrogant - which is anti-spiritual.

Anti-spiritual? This is funny coming from a “NO RAPTURE” theorist who refuses to use Scripture in his “I believe” posts. (Not in quotes for size. Maybe he will respond to the larger print.)
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“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.
-------
How do you change Paul’s words to teach “NO RAPTURE” in the Bible? What does “we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds” mean to Flyer???? We might grow old waiting for a thoughtful reply to anything God has given us on this Rapture Topic.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Hi Byrd:

Terral Original >> Of course not. Heh . . . That is the point. There are only so many ways to interpret Paul’s words in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, which renders the Thread Starter’s Hypothesis FALSE. We can all agree that LaHaye’s Interpretations on this topic are DEAD WRONG, but you are confusing his ‘eschatology’ of “end time” events with Paul’s teaching on the Rapture (1Thes. 4:17).

Byrd's Reply >> Not really. The main conention of the original post of this thread was that the LaHaye slant/teaching that is so popular today was not an original teaching of the early Christians.

Not so. Ms. Speaker took things a step farther to say, “LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was NOT EVEN CONSIDERED Until 1830.” Something is 'considered' within one's own mind oftentimes in the absence of any written evidence at all. Ms. Speakers “NO RAPTURE” link includes this statement:

“When we remember that the Secret Rapture theory was virtually unheard of and untaught until around 1830, it is essential to examine its origins first.”

The Apostle Paul connects this “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) Event to ‘the mystery’ (= sacred secret = Eph. 3:3) in 1Corinthians 15:51:

“Behold, I tell you A MYSTERY; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

Anyone can visit Vines’ Expository dictionary to determine the ‘sacred secret’ aspects of ‘musterion’ ( www.antioch.com.sg... ), where at the top he says,

musterion primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned THE SECRET," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT THE MYSTERIOUS (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known ONLY BY DIVINE REVELATION, and is made known in a MANNER and AT A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY WHO are ILLUMINED BY HIS SPIRIT. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies KNOWLEDGE WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is TRUTH REVEALED . . .

Byrd >> This has nothing to do with a rapture or the Rapture or anything else. It has to do with whether Paul and the earliest church fathers taught antichrist/tribulation/rapture/second coming/armageddon.

No sir. You are inserting components of LaHaye’s ‘Eschatology’ of end time events (Matt. 24) into Paul’s mystery Rapture out of sheer convenience, when Paul makes no such connections of these things to ‘his’ Rapture (1Thes. 4:13-17) teaching himself.

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Were is your 'tribulation?' Paul is describing the START of the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, while Christ (Matt. 24) is describing how the same Period ENDS . . . You are blending those things together into a single pot to make the same mistakes as Darby, LaHaye and most everyone here. We have already been through this twice and you have NO REPLY. Since you refuse to give us ‘your’ interpretations of 1Cor. 15:51-53 OR 1Thes. 4:13-17, then your opinions here really do not mean very much to me. The precepts of this ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture topic are currently “outside the range” of your “unassisted natural apprehension” and NOTHING anyone can say will change that simple fact.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
in his “I believe” posts. ( ... Maybe he will respond to the larger print.)

Larger print .. good idea .. here ya' go ....

I AM A GIRL!!!!

For Petes sake Terral! You've been told that for weeks and you are STLL calling me he/him/his .... read the freak'n posts, will ya. Or is that too much to ask. Guess so.

So according to Terrals cult no one has been saved by the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John in 2,000 years. But they are only saved by Paul? Don't bother trying to explain it further. It is just too silly and I don't want to waste my time on it.

13 pages and that's what it all comes down to? Silly. I can't find anything scholarly to say about it ... that's just silly. I said I wasn't going to feed the trolls so I'm done trying to tell Terral anything. I have posted and reposted information that he's not bothering to read. He's in my 'troll' bin. Bu-bye Terral.

[edit on 10/23/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Byrd
The main conention of the original post of this thread was that the LaHaye slant/teaching that is so popular today was not an original teaching of the early Christians. This has nothing to do with a rapture or the Rapture or anything else.

Back on Topic

The 'left behind' books are notoriously anti-Catholic. He was raised 'anti-catholic' and frankly, many people I know believe his books are nothing more than brightly wrapped Fundamentalist Anti-Catholic propaganda.

www.catholictech.com...

Originally posted by Byrd
If you read the writings of both Protestant and Catholic notable scholars, you will see that such beliefs were generally not held by either sect until around the 1800's...

And there you have it. That's it. There really isn't anything else to say on the subject of this thread. It generally was NOT a belief before the mid 1800s. Then (rabid anti-Catholic) failed Anglican Priest Nelson Darby got his cult up and running on the 'feel good - ticket outta' tribulations' theme. That pretty much is the end of the story.

[edit on 10/23/2006 by FlyersFan]

Terral,

Have you noticed how rude you're being to Flyers Fan? In several threads that she and you have been involved in, she has repeatedly pointed out her gender and you continue to call her a he even with her letting you know it upsets her.

Why are you acting like such a jerk about that?

Byrd,

Exactly.

Flyers Fan,

Exactly.

Terral,

Whatever.

[edit on 10-23-2006 by Valhall]

Paul didn't even personally know Christ. Christ had already came and went before Paul's declarations. Any legitimacy of Paull's declaration is hinged on a "vision" that he supposedly had. That's the truth about Paul!!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

1.God has the ability to take his believers out of the tribulations. I agree.

Will he? No. He never has before and he isn't going to now.

2.dbrant .. seriously ... belief in a pre-trib rapture is NOT necessary for salvation.

3. I also find it unsettling to see people so joyful at the prospect of themselves not suffering but leaving others behind to suffer in stupidity.

1.We agree God has the ability to take believers out.

You say He has never done this, not true. Enoch was removed from the earth and so was Elijah. So the precedent has been shown to us.

Enoch is a foreshdowing of the rapture. There are alot of interesting things(verses and clues) in the Bible regarding that. Why did God take him?, because he walked with God(had a deep, deep relationship with God and took God at His word about salvation.)

Genesis 5:[23] And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
[24] And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The Bible also tells us the people of Enoch's time went looking for Him. We think this means physically, which it does. But I think it also means in their thinking/reasoning. Physical search parties were formed but also mental ones were formed, meaning people sat around remembering what Enoch told them about God and how it means to live with and for Him. So when they couldn't physically find him or a body, the mental process kicked in, as to why he was gone. When they realized why, some believed and some didn't, this got the attention of some people and they turned toward God.

2.I have never said that the pre-trib is necessary for salvation. It is not.

3.As far as joy in the rapture, that has to be interpreted correctly.

Say you were running a 26 mile marathon. When you get close to the end, you know relief and rest is almost here. You have run the race and the end of the muscle/mental hurting is near. Your looking forward to the end of the race.

Also, if you love someone and haven't seen them for awhile or ever, you want to see them.

Now as far as those left behind. You have to realize, that everyone is faced with a choice of accepting or rejecting Christ. Everyone up to the moment of the rapture who is really saved, is goingin the rapture. Only unbelievers will be left, BUT, remember Enoch. People looked for him in 2 ways. The rapture will be the kick in the "pants" that will cause MANY to come to salvation and escape hell.



There is the JOY of the rapture

That family member, who you have been talking to about Christ. You know, the one who thinks your a nut and maybe gets mad at you for telling him/her about the salvation found in Christ. The one who doesn't want to hear. The one who doesn't think they "need" God. The one that you have been talking too for years. The one that keeps rejecting Jesus. The one who makes choices that bring pain, yet can't quite figure out why. The one that you really want in heaven with you for eternity. The one that you tell God, "Do something to get them saved", and nothing happens, so you keep trusting and praying.

Then comes the day that you are gone. That loved one calls on the phone for you, no answer. They call up people looking for you, others have been looking also and have not found you. They drive over to your house, no answer. They break down the door, and find out you are not there. Then they walk back to the car and get in, and they begin to cry. Just like Enoch's day.

Then at that moment, your prayers for that person kick in.

John 14:[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

and

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders(the raptured believers) fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

All of a sudden EVERYTHING you ever told them about God, Jesus, the Bible the End Times, EVERYTHING comes rushing back into their mind like a flood.


They realize you were right and they were wrong. Then and there they come to Jesus for salvation. That "horrendous" event, the rapture, that did it.
That event finally broke through all the pride and distractions( more than enough money, cars, sports, sex, drinking, etc), and opened their heart to receive Jesus and His salvation that He has been holding for them.

Now look at what the Bible says about those people.

Revelation 7:[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
[17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Read the last 2 verses again.

God WILL NOT, completely override someone's free will when it comes to receiving Christ as Savior. The only way to love God is because you want to, Love does not exist if you have too.

Read the last 2 verses again.


They would not have had God dwelling among them and they would have never seen God's face or received a hug from Him. They would have hungered forever, thirsted forever, the sun and heat would have tormented them for forever. They would have never gone to and known what fountains of living water are. They would have cried for forever.

Horrendous event, not at all, when you realize what it means.

Originally posted by dbrandt
We agree God has the ability to take believers out. You say He has never done this, not true. Enoch was removed from the earth and so was Elijah. So the precedent has been shown to us. Enoch is a foreshdowing of the rapture.

Enoch is one person. That isn't a foreshadowing of rapture. A foreshadowing would have been if he had 'lifted out' all the martyrs who died during the Christian persecution in Rome; or all the martyrs who are dying now in China; or a large group of innocent frightened and confused children before the tsunami; etc. Sorry. Didn't happen. Where was our Loving Father?? He left people to tribulate. He has his mysterious reasons for doing so. We either trust Him, or we don't. In good times, and in bad.

I know about Elijah. I know about Enoch. Some believe Moses was taken out (not me). I, and the Catholic church, believe Mary was taken, body and soul, to heaven (after her death). There are two scriptural (Elijah and Enoch) and two traditional (Moses, Mary) that some folks believe were taken out. That's all. In 7,000 years .. that's all of the 'get out of tribulation' rides outta' here that there have been. And Mary's wasn't a 'get out of tribulation' .. it was after her suffering watching her Divine Son be murdered and after her own death.

Everyone else was left here to tribulate.

I have never said that the pre-trib is necessary for salvation. It is not.

I know you haven't. I'm just saying it really isn't worth getting in a big fight over. (And someone ELSE here seems to think it is too important. )

Honestly db ... I fully understand what you are saying about how God loves us and how you think He isn't going to let His children suffer in tribulations because, afterall, if He really loves us he won't leave us here to go through that, right?? What loving parent would leave their children to suffer like that?

And yet, that's exactly what He has done for thousands of years. Left us to tribulate. It boggles the mind and it definately is a test of faith. And when the 'end of times' tribulations start there is no reason to believe that those people will get off any easier than the martyrs of old. Gods track record says otherwise. And the words of the martyrs themselves, in the book of Revelation, even say that they grow anxious waiting for the Day of the Lord, but that they have to wait for the rest of the martyrs from the end days before it can happen.

Hey .. it would be great if it would happen. But I don't see it. I'm not banking on it. I just hope that those who are banking on it don't loose faith when they have to face tribulations, either in the End Days or their own personal tribulations. That's all.



[edit on 10/23/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
And the words of the martyrs themselves, in the book of Revelation, even say that they grow anxious waiting for the Day of the Lord, but that they have to wait for the rest of the martyrs from the end days before it can happen.

Read the Book of Revelation over again and see the distinguishment there is between the different groups of believers that are mentioned to us. I can think of 4 groups and there might be 5groups of believers. They are all saints but there is a distinguishment made between them.

Here is What I am talking about when I say that Paul did not know Christ in person. His "revelations" are strictly based on visions that he had.

Paul lives in a world of divine revelation. He moves amid wide-ranging and diverse circles of apostles who preach the Christ, none of whom show any sign of tracing their authority or knowledge about such a divine figure back to a ministry on earth, or to a group of apostles who had been participants and witnesses of that ministry.

Paul's "Knowledge"

Here is another quote explaining where he got his "gospel".

In 1 Corinthians 9:1 Paul asks plaintively: “Am I not an apostle? Did I not see Jesus our Lord?” It would seem that for Paul the mark of the true apostle is the reception of the proper visionary revelation and authority from God.

Paul's "Knowledge"

Originally posted by FlyersFan
And yet, that's exactly what He has done for thousands of years. Left us to tribulate. It boggles the mind and it definately is a test of faith. And when the 'end of times' tribulations start there is no reason to believe that those people will get off any easier than the martyrs of old. Gods track record says otherwise. And the words of the martyrs themselves, in the book of Revelation, even say that they grow anxious waiting for the Day of the Lord, but that they have to wait for the rest of the martyrs from the end days before it can happen.

Hey .. it would be great if it would happen. But I don't see it. I'm not banking on it. I just hope that those who are banking on it don't loose faith when they have to face tribulations, either in the End Days or their own personal tribulations. That's all.

FlyersFan, I agree that many have had to tribulate due to their faith. It still happens in many countries today. The Christians have suffered persecution for their faith by the hands of those who do not believe in Jesus. If we believe that the tribulation period is just more of this, then you are correct in assuming that Christians will stay here and tribulate with the rest of the world.

My understanding of the tribulation comes from reading the Book of Daniel. Yes! I’m reading the Old Testament. In Daniel 9: 24-27 the angel Gabriel is telling Daniel of the coming judgment of God against Israel to cleanse them of their iniquities. This judgment comes in the form of 70 weeks of tribulation upon Israel. This seventy weeks of 7 years comes to a total of 490 years.

The 70 weeks began with edict issued by Artaxerxes Longimanus in March of 445B.C. Bible scholars have placed Jesus entry into Jerusalem at April 6, 32 A.D. This gives a period of 476 years and 24 days. Multiply 476 years by 365 days and add the 24 days and the total days are 173,765 days. Include 116 days for leap years and the total days are 173,880. Keeping in mind that a year on the Jewish calendar was 360 days, divide 173,880 by 360 and the total number of years is 483. Divide these years into weeks of 7 and you’ll get 69 weeks. What happened to week 70? The final week of judgment has yet to be enacted on the world.

This is where we part company. Although I firmly believe that Christians are to suffer at the hand of the world, I do not believe that we are to suffer at the hand of God.

If we look back to other times of God’s judgment, we can see that He does not judge the righteous with the unrighteous. When God judged the world and found it wanting, He saved Noah and his family. When He judged Sodom and Gomorrah, He saved Lot and his family. The Israelites were safe from the judgments on Egypt. When He judged Jericho, He saved Rahab and her family. When God sent Jonah to Nineveh to warn them of His judgment, the people repented and God spared them of His judgment. God does not judge the righteous with the unrighteous.

Whether this is a case for rapture is up to interpretation. IMHO the reference to the tribulation saints are those who become Christians during the tribulation. Jesus said in John 14: 1-3

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Why would He go through the trouble of preparing a place for us if when He returns, we’ll live with Him here on this earth?

I am a Christian, but I’m still not sure where I stand on the rapture issue. I long for His appearing. I believe in watching, waiting and praying for His appearing, so that it doesn’t overtake me like a thief in the night.

Getting back to the original poster’s argument, were there any reliable authenticated writings on a pre-trib rapture, or did LaHaye and Jenkins take a new idea and fictionalize it to the tune of millions?

I have read the entire series a few times. From a pre-tribbers point of view, it would seem that the authors are right on. From a mid or post-tribbers point of view, it would seem that this is entirely fiction and to be taken lightly, like the da Vinci code.

As I’ve stated before, IMHO these beliefs are merely a matter of how one interprets the scriptures. It’s like looking at clouds and seeing a bunny. But is there any “proof” that the early church believed in a rapture or have scriptures been interpreted to back a belief that is less than 200 years old?

Whether we believe that the Book of the Cave of Treasure was written by Ephraem the Syrian, or merely someone posing as him (pseudo-Ephraem), we must still take his writings into consideration.

2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (Italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .
Source

Does this statement, written about 373 A.D., give justification to the pre-tribbers that the early church (or a least a faction thereof) did indeed teach a pre-trib rapture?


[edit on 10/23/2006 by darkelf]

[edit on 10/24/2006 by darkelf]

I have to ask pre-tribbers because i can't recall, but does the antichrist reveal himself before or after the rapture?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

i also must ask, the bible says this after Christ comes as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

After Christ comes as a thief in the night it says the heavens will pass away with A GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth shall be burned up, and that everything will be dissolved. I thought after the rapture we get 7 years of antichrist reign, not the destruction of the earth? Post tribbers believe that after the great tribulation that the rapture is synonymous with CHrist 2nd Coming, adn when Christ comes he will take the saved and renew the earth by destroying it with fire. the text above seems accurate with this view.

And lastly, pretribulation rapture asserts that Jesus will come like a thief in the night to believers and that they will be "stolen" from the world to heaven, BUT THE BIBLE SAYS DIFFERENT.

1Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Clearly, the bible says Jesus will be like a thief in the night to NON BELIEVERS, notice how they have twisted scripture? THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS the saved SHALL Not be overtaken by the thief.

repeat: NON BELIEVERS shall be taken as a thief in the night, NOT THE SAVED. Pretribulation rapture says BELIEVERS shall be taken like a thief in the night...

Christians in the United States have been pampered so much because of our religious freedom that i believe that the great tribulation will be the final way God will refine us into his image, refine us with a faith that is worth more than gold. There is no greater way for us to look to God except when we are faced with persecution. Persecution during the apostles times STRENGTHENED thier faith, and as hard as Rome tried to stop christianity, it flourished.

2 Timothy 3:12 (Whole Chapter)
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Can you imagine what an honor it will be to go through the last persecution/tribulation in the whole universe?

Originally posted by darkelf
I am a Christian,... I long for His appearing. I believe in watching, waiting and praying for His appearing, so that it doesn’t overtake me like a thief in the night.

EXACTLY. And the rapture or nonrapture isn't important as long as you are living your life as you should be. And time is better spent talking about, and trying to live, the beatitudes rather than argue over when a rapture may happen.

Try to live like God wants you to; live the beatitudes; pray; and prepare for your tribulatons. This way you will be ready no matter what and if a rapture happens, then be pleasantly surprised.

TOPIC - I believe the 'left behind' series is just a money making endeavor tied in with an anti-Catholic fundamentalist pushing his beliefs ... and the readers don't know that they are subjecting themselves to it. They think they are just reading a fun book. It may be fun, but it is also subtle indoctrination.

That's all I have to say on this.
I'm done with this thread.

Originally posted by Shortness
I have to ask pre-tribbers because i can't recall, but does the antichrist reveal himself before or after the rapture?

I was raised in a church that taught the pre-trib rapture. IIRC, pre-tribbers believe that the taking of the church out of this world will allow the anti-christ to enter the scene. 2Thessalonians 2: 6 and 7 is the scripture they use to back this claim that the church (body of Christ) is the restainer and that the anti-christ cannot be revealed until the church is removed.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

i also must ask, the bible says this after Christ comes as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

After Christ comes as a thief in the night it says the heavens will pass away with A GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth shall be burned up, and that everything will be dissolved. I thought after the rapture we get 7 years of antichrist reign, not the destruction of the earth? Post tribbers believe that after the great tribulation that the rapture is synonymous with CHrist 2nd Coming, adn when Christ comes he will take the saved and renew the earth by destroying it with fire. the text above seems accurate with this view.

Yet according to Revelation 21, the earth will not be destroyed until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

And lastly, pretribulation rapture asserts that Jesus will come like a thief in the night to believers and that they will be "stolen" from the world to heaven, BUT THE BIBLE SAYS DIFFERENT.

1Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Clearly, the bible says Jesus will be like a thief in the night to NON BELIEVERS, notice how they have twisted scripture? THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS the saved SHALL Not be overtaken by the thief.

repeat: NON BELIEVERS shall be taken as a thief in the night, NOT THE SAVED. Pretribulation rapture says BELIEVERS shall be taken like a thief in the night...

In Revelation 3: 3 Jesus is addressing the church when He states:

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Interestingly enough, it is the believer that Jesus is addressing. He is admonishing us to repent of our sins and watch for His return. If we don’t watch, it will come upon us as a thief in the night.

Christians in the United States have been pampered so much because of our religious freedom that i believe that the great tribulation will be the final way God will refine us into his image, refine us with a faith that is worth more than gold. There is no greater way for us to look to God except when we are faced with persecution. Persecution during the apostles times STRENGTHENED thier faith, and as hard as Rome tried to stop christianity, it flourished.

2 Timothy 3:12 (Whole Chapter)
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Can you imagine what an honor it will be to go through the last persecution/tribulation in the whole universe?

Not really. If the tribulation is anything like it is described in the Bible, it will be a terrible time of war, hunger, and disease. Not to mention all of the natural disasters that will take place. If you truly believe that you will live through this time, I hope that you have made survival plans.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
how you think He isn't going to let His children suffer in tribulations

I have also never said that people will not suffer tribulations/persecution.

Of cousre people have , do and will.

This is what God is saying:

1 Thessalonians5:[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
[11] Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.