LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

Originally posted by dbrandt
But I think it also means in their thinking/reasoning. the mental process kicked in, as to why he was gone. When they realized why, some believed and some didn't, this got the attention of some people and they turned toward God.

I had an interesting happening today. I posted the above yesterday or the day before.

I usually am at work at 8:30 am, but didn't go in till 9:00am, and when I got there people had been wondering alot where I was and trying to get ahold of me.

This only confirms to me that what I wrote yesterday. When a huge event like the rapture does take place people will be scrambling to find others who are gone. Then when that is exhausted they will begin to mentally search for them and some will eventually figure out where the missing went and they will receive salvation in Christ themselves.

I was raised in a church that taught the pre-trib rapture. IIRC, pre-tribbers believe that the taking of the church out of this world will allow the anti-christ to enter the scene. 2Thessalonians 2: 6 and 7 is the scripture they use to back this claim that the church (body of Christ) is the restainer and that the anti-christ cannot be revealed until the church is removed.

if this is true then pretribulation rapture contradicts 2 thess 1:3

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Christ coming shall not come UNTIL the ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED FIRST.

Yet according to Revelation 21, the earth will not be destroyed until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

did i say the earth was destroyed? Its pretty clear from the bible that there won't be another 7 years, but i didn't mean to say that the earth was to be destroyed in the sense of the word. It'll be in an unlivable condition.

In Revelation 3: 3 Jesus is addressing the church when He states:

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Interestingly enough, it is the believer that Jesus is addressing. He is admonishing us to repent of our sins and watch for His return. If we don’t watch, it will come upon us as a thief in the night.

This text agrees with my previous bible text, that the UNSAVED shall be taken as a thief in the night. That is why Jesus said to hold fast and repent because if you don't he will come as a thief in the night. Jesus is addressing the believer but that doesn't negate the fact that Jesus will be a thief in the night to the UNSAVED.

Not really. If the tribulation is anything like it is described in the Bible, it will be a terrible time of war, hunger, and disease. Not to mention all of the natural disasters that will take place. If you truly believe that you will live through this time, I hope that you have made survival plans.

Psalms 91, exodus of the jews out of egypt, Daniel in the lions den, Paul when he was sailing to Rome, the 3 jews thrown into the fiery furnace etc etc etc.

Survival plans? Nothing of this world can protect me from the last tribulation. Only prayer will.



[edit on 24-10-2006 by Shortness]

Originally posted by Shortness

if this is true then pretribulation rapture contradicts 2 thess 1:3

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Christ coming shall not come UNTIL the ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED FIRST.

[/ quote ]

Shortness, this is not true.

There is a rapture, a Day of the Lord, and a Second Coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is attempting to calm people. The Second Coming is a good thing to the believer. He would not be trying to calm people about this. He is telling the believers not to be afraid that the Day of the Lord is at hand (WRATH)

Paul is saying, don't worry that you missed the rapture and that the Day of the Lord is at hand. The Day of the Lord can't happen until the Antichrist is revealed. This has nothing to do with the Second Coming.

So the second coming of Jesus is the actually Third coming instead? So Jesus coming to rapture the church doesnt count as the 2nd coming? I'm confused.

Flyer:

Flyer >> I AM A GIRL!!!!

That certainly explains much! Please offer us your interpretations on these verses!

“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT Adam who was deceived, but the WOMAN BEING DECEIVED, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. 1Timothy 2:11-15.

Before Nygdan jumps in [ : o ) ]: Every ATS member here has the right to say anything they wish on any of these threads. I am simply wondering how much of God’s Word I am to ignore to make the membership here happy. These women want to dissect the Original Languages when it serves their ‘scholarly’ purpose, but then they totally ignore what God plainly commands in the very next verse!! Please offer us your interpretations on these verses also:

“But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it FROM YOU that the word of God first went forth? Or has it COME TO YOU ONLY? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:30-38.

Again (for clarity), everyone (men, women, children, etc.) here speaks in anyway they wish according to ATS rules and guidelines. My query is made in context to how each of my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus will either stand or fall at the Judgment (2Cor. 5:10), because of the edification OR foolishness they perpetuate through these careful deliberations.

Flyer >> For Petes sake Terral! You've been told that for weeks and you are STLL calling me he/him/his .... read the freak'n posts, will ya. Or is that too much to ask. Guess so.

Any normal Board allows members to click any name and gather personal profile information from any other registered member. Do we get that kind of information by clicking names here? No. Gender is obviously not a consideration or matter of importance at ATS, so everyone is addressed in the masculine tense exactly like we find in Scripture. Since you are one of the most irritating and belligerent ATS members I will ever encounter, then do not expect that your words will carry very much weight at all. Now that I know for certain that you are numbered among those that the “Word of God” has “come to you ONLY,” then your credibility meter on these topics cannot possibly drop any lower. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt . . . Of course, every ATS member weighs things differently, but I use God’s methods and fully expect you to be shouting “NO RAPTURE,” until the cows come home. : 0 )

Flyer >> So according to Terrals cult no one has been saved by the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John in 2,000 years.

LOL. Please stop embarrassing yourself. I would explain it to your husband, but judging by your contemptuous nature, you are probably far less likely to listen to him than me. What ‘cult’ would you say I belong to? Heh . . . give us a good laugh!

Flyer is a girl >> But they are only saved by Paul? Don't bother trying to explain it further. It is just too silly and I don't want to waste my time on it.

We agree that you will NEVER see the difference. I explain the difference here for others: www.belowtopsecret.com...

Flyer is a girl >> 13 pages and that's what it all comes down to? Silly. I can't find anything scholarly to say about it ... that's just silly.

Scholarly? Heh . . . Every post I have read from you is loud, vindictive and denying something from God’s Living Word. However, if you keep it up then the “Scholar” tag will appear by your name also. Apparently that is how things work around here.

Flyer >> I said I wasn't going to feed the trolls so I'm done trying to tell Terral anything. I have posted and reposted information that he's not bothering to read. He's in my 'troll' bin. Bu-bye Terral.

I would be very happy if you would simply go away, while taking that nasty mouth with you. Thank you, thank you and thank you. What did you manage to say about the Rapture on any of these pages? Heh . . . Zip. Oh, “NO RAPTURE!” Keep up the nice work . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Valhall:

Valhall >> Here's the main problem I have with you, Terral. You're underhanded. You are apparently ashamed of what organization you are part of and what wares you're selling.

Please . . . You present your views and I will present mine, while the third party readers judge US BOTH! Look at the Topic Title and see if anything appears there about Terral’s or Valhall’s personal information. I am here to debate your ‘interpretations’ with NO REGARD for what church you attend. The Moderators are poised to ensure we write ON THE TOPIC of the debate without attacking each other’s PERSON. Your feeble arguments require you to attack me personally, because I prove your ‘interpretations’ to be BOGUS at every turn. What did you “quote >>” from me to begin this grandstanding charade? NOTHING. Your ridiculous post has every appearance of a Personal Email without any connection to this topic whatsoever. However, anyone can read any of my posts and see I “quote >>” your every word in an attempt to stay on the topic. That is quite impossible in many cases, because you continue pumping out these “Dear Terral” love letters while grandstanding before the third party judges. I asked you to start a thread on this topic using your “Blog” information, but you refused? Why? I know why. Baaakkk! Baaaakkk! Once again: I am a “teacher” (Eph. 4:11) and a member of the “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) “His body” Church (Col. 1:24) part of the “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2). I do not know how to speak more clearly using smaller words in hope you will somehow understand. I am a part of NO Denomination on this planet! Does the term “Non-denominational” Christian register? I hope so . . . You are seeking ammunition for more personal attacks . . .

Valhall being vindictive >> Why don't you come out of the True Prophet-closet, make your thread about how the only "true church" is your church and be open about what religion you're pushing?

I have made four threads in this room and four of them have been moved to BTS by the powers that prowl here. I have no intentions of starting another thread in this room to give them further satisfaction. Anyone seeking more information on any Bible Topic can email me and I will offer links to any number of Bible Boards that do not move my threads to SomeWhereElseVille.

Valhall >> Why do you have to veil all of this behind a facade of being a Christian and then bastardize the scriptures? It's very dishonest. It's - antichrist. That's what it is.

Here you are using ‘name calling’ tactics in order to try and ‘flame’ your debating opponent against ATS COC guidelines. Shame, shame. If my interpretations are so wrong, then why did you waste this opportunity to “quote me >>” and demonstrate that fact to everyone here using Scripture? 2Timothy 2:15. Heh . . . Please highlight your examples of how I am misusing Scripture at your earliest convenience and I will once again show everyone just how foolish you can be . . . Bring it!

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
Since you are one of the most irritating and belligerent ATS members I will ever encounter, then do not expect that your words will carry very much weight at all.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

Pot? Meet kettle.

Oh, and if you think she's one of the most belligerent and irritating members you'll ever encounter, then you obviously don't have an expectation of encountering many. And in that I think you're eerily prescient.

Have a lovely day. Somewhere.

Hi Shortness:

Shortness >> So the second coming of Jesus is the actually Third coming instead? So Jesus coming to rapture the church doesnt count as the 2nd coming? I'm confused.

I feel for you, Shortness, because so many ATS members write on this ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) topic without any of “MY INSIGHT into the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4) whatsoever. Scripture is written by God to be read and interpreted in at least 2000 different ways, which accounts for over 2000 denominations of ‘professing’ Christians in the USA alone. Scripture says,

“For there must also be factions [sects] among you, so that those who are approved [2Tim. 2:15] may become evident among you.” 1Corinthians 11:19.

That means everyone here is expected to ‘quote >>’ God and give ‘their’ interpretations so everyone else can check those things out in Scripture to see if indeed anyone here is ‘approved to God.’ The right interpretation is the one that says exactly what God says without creating a single contradiction. I am going to show you how Christ is coming for “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) and why that ‘coming’ does NOT count as His Second Coming in Matthew 24:30+31. You can see my full explanation here ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ), but from a different direction and context. To start I would ask you to visualize these things:



The OT Testament Prophets are standing in the Old Testament (Prophet’s Vision), while looking intently into the “1000 Year Day of the Lord” pictured on the right hand side of the diagram. Note that Christ’s Olivet Discourse is an answer to the Disciple’s questions concerning “Your coming” AND the “End of the Age.” Matthew 24:3+. THAT is the context through which Christ is giving a play by play chronological accounting in the verses down to Matthew 24:31. Crack open your Bible and verify that Daniel (Matt. 24:15) is also writing about the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11) AND the same “End of the Age” (Dan. 12:13). The “End of the Age” is the ‘end’ of this “Evil Age” (Gal. 1:4) that precedes the “New Earth” of Revelation 21:1+. Christ’s “First Coming” was to pay for sins 2000 years ago (which you already know) AND His “Second Coming” in “Glory” (Matt. 24:30+31) is connected directly to the “Judgment” of Matthew 25:31-33.

We know these represent the same “Coming,” because we see the “Son of Man” coming in the same His “glory” (Matt. 24:30, 25:31). Isaiah see the “voice” (Isaiah 40:3) of “My messenger” (Malachi 3:1) clearing the way in the wilderness for the Lord (Jesus Christ) coming to His Temple, as the First Coming. Zechariah (Zech. 14:1+) and Daniel above see Christ’s Second Coming with such precision that Daniel can even number the days (Dan. 12:11-13). However, NO Old Testament Prophet can see into the red “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) falling between those Mountain Peaks of Prophecy. Can you find a single OT Prophet who saw the Apostle Paul who with his travel companions wrote 17 of the 27 NT books? No. The OT Prophets also did not see our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) called the “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) that is according to “this mystery among the Gentiles” (Col. 1:27). The Mystery / Prophecy Timeline looks something like this:



Enoch and Elijah were ‘caught up’ respectively in the Old Testament to typify events being fulfilled in our New Testament. Christ ascended into the heavenly places in Acts 1:9-11 to typify the gathering of “His Body” Church that the OT Prophets were never given to see. Note carefully that a 2000 Year Period passes from the time of Christ’s ascension to ours (1Thes. 4:16-17) that STARTS the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Christ’s First Coming is marked by the timeline between John the Baptist and the cross, while His Second Coming is three thousand years LATER at the ‘end of the age’ to gather “The Elect” within the purple “Short Time” connected to Satan’s release (Rev. 20:7). However (this is the important part for your answer), Christ coming for His mystery ‘body’ is NOT SEEN by any of the OT Prophets for them to ‘prophesy’ about it. Christ’s feet never touch the ground, because we “meet the Lord IN THE AIR” (1Thes. 4:17) to return to heaven WITH HIM.

The Judgment of 2Corinthians 5:10 is also not seen by any of the OT prophets like everything else ‘inside’ the red section of the first diagram above. Satan is CHAINED at our Rapture by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1Thes. 4:16) with Christ and the trumpet heard “behind” John in Revelation 1:10. The reason Elijah can THEN return to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:19-26, 15:16-18, etc.) is because WE (body of Christ) are seated in the ‘heavenly places’ IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) to judge the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3) at the VERY SAME TIME! The heavenly seats currently occupied by the “world forces of this darkness” (Eph. 6:12) will be EMPTY, because the chaining of Satan in the pit includes all the members of HIS EVIL BODY. The most important verses in all of Scripture for you to read and understand today are these:

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, IS REVEALED [Matthew 24:30+31 = Prophetic Second Coming], then YOU ALSO will be revealed with Him IN GLORY.” Colossians 3:1-4.

Since Paul connected our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) and the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16), then you must divide and separate THAT information from the events of “Prophecy” that the OT Prophets ‘were’ given to see. IF these things had not remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9), then the OT prophets would have seen THREE comings of Christ and Paul could NOT have made the ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) connection at all. If you will reason these things out carefully with your Bible open, after reading my Rapture post (link above), then I believe you will come to the same conclusions.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
Please highlight your examples of how I am misusing Scripture at your earliest convenience and I will once again show everyone just how foolish you can be . . . Bring it!

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Highlighted examples

Highlighted Examples

Valhall, Flyer, Speaker:

Valhall >> Have you noticed how rude you're being to Flyers Fan?

How do you define “malicious gossips” (diabolos #1228) from this verse?

“Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.” 1Timothy 3:11?

Flyer refuses to write on the topic and quite frankly I have not paid much attention to her nonsense. Whether she is a he or whatever is of no importance to any of these topics at all.

Speaker >> Paul didn't even personally know Christ. Christ had already came and went before Paul's declarations. Any legitimacy of Paull's declaration is hinged on a "vision" that he supposedly had. That's the truth about Paul!!

This ridiculous statement exhibits what will be the downfall of the girls trying to instill their will and false notions on the membership of this Board at the judgment here (2Cor. 5:10) for my brethren and here (Rev. 20:11-15) for the false brethren among us. Paul is the only Bible writer to whom the “wisdom given him” (2Pet. 3:14-16) was given through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Gal. 1:11+12) through the ‘visions and revelations OF THE LORD’ (2Cor. 12:1). Christ on the earth was sent to ISRAEL ONLY (Matt. 15:24) with commands to the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc..). Only the Apostle Paul gives us the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) for the members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) in the world today. You girls are teaching things about Jesus of the flesh who we know ‘NO LONGER.’

“Therefore from now on we recognize NO ONE according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way NO LONGER. Therefore if anyone is ”IN” Christ [I know what Paul means and you DO NOT!], he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2Corinthians 5:16-17.

I am a ‘new creature’ “created IN Christ Jesus” [Eph. 2:10] and my debating opponents have no clue as to what that even means. They blend the two gospels of the NT [ www.belowtopsecret.com... ] into one that DOES NOT SAVE and they try to write on these ‘mystery’ topics like a woman writing on her chicken and yellow rice recipes. What does Peter write about those distorting the ‘wisdom given him?’

“Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the WISDOM GIVEN HIM, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE [ Heh . . . nice characterization of them ] distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.” 2Peter 3:14-16.

The secrets of men (heh, womenfolk too) will be judged according to Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16) and NONE among them know the difference! They think hacking on Paul is the answer without realizing that God’s Living Word contains 66 books and we are supposed to be reconciling ‘the truth’ in each and every syllable!

There are ten thousand things that escapes their notice, but one of those things is that we are all standing in Judgment before God’s Throne right this moment as we speak! Each word they utter throughout all these deliberations represents evidence being brought AGAINST THEM for crimes connecting them to Satan’s Rebellion, which does NOT find any of them standing in a good light. That is why I encourage them all to “quote me >>” and show my errors to everyone here using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15), because every single word given them is truth. Their attempt to counter with this foolishness finds them sinking even more rapidly into the quicksand of their own design. The only regret here is that there are not 10,000 more . . .

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Valhall or FlyersFan in Terral's world:



Come here sweetie and let me give you a big kiss.

Originally posted by Shortness
So the second coming of Jesus is the actually Third coming instead? So Jesus coming to rapture the church doesnt count as the 2nd coming? I'm confused.

During the rapture Jesus does not come to the earth. The dead in Christ and the believers who are alive are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus.

The DAY OF THE LORD is the wrath of God.

The Second Coming is when Jesus comes to earth and sets up his kingdom.

Terral,

I see no Antichrist in your drawings.

I see no peace treaty.

I see no white horse.

I see no red horse.

What gives?

Terral, Paul believed in obedience to the law. Paul was trying to keep the peace in churches where the women were so excited by the concept of Christianity that they often disrupted services to ask questions. However, women in that time did not experience the freedoms that they do today. If the men who have tried to hold women back through the misinterpretation of Paul’s doctrine would follow his advice (Men love your wives as you love yourself) women and men would be much better off.

As far as the second coming goes, some pre-tribbers believe that Jesus will meet them in the air (not on the earth) and that is their reasoning that the rapture is not the second coming. I’ve seen a lot of information both pro and con on the rapture. Both sides make a good argument for their case. Some rapture watchers are “date setter” who search the scriptures and research Jewish customs to define the rapture date. Gematrias are also used.

The most popular date at this time is somewhere between the fist and eleventh of November. I believe this day was chosen because it coincides with Noah entering the ark. Other dates usually fall on the day of Jewish Feast. The most common rapture-feast day prediction is Rosh Hasanah (Feast of Trumpets) because no one can predict the day or hour of this feast.

Edited to add:

Some pre-trib rapture believers believe that only those Christians who believe in the rapture and are actively watching for it will go up in the rapture. The rest of the Christians (those who neither believed nor watched) wil have to go through all or the first half of the tribulation. Why would God take some of His believers and not all? Their answer is those Christians left behind did not accept God's invitation to His Son's wedding.

[edit on 10/26/2006 by darkelf]

Val,
LOVED the picture! LMAO.

Terral,
I have a question for you regarding scripture you have quoted 3 times now on this thread about women keeping silent in the churches. Do women sing in the church you attend? If so, then women don't "keep silent" in your church either.
More questions: are women even allowed in your church or must they beg for God's attention out in the parking lot? Will women be raptured? Who did Paul say was responsible for sin entering the world-a woman or a man? "For through one MAN sin entered the world..." Yes, woman sinned FIRST but was deceived into it. Adam, knowingly and willingly sinned. He was willing to die with his wife, trusting in God's promise of resurrection to him and Eve rather than to live without her. Now THAT'S loving your wife like Christ loved the church.

The whole law was summarized in one commandment: Love the Lord your God...and love your neighbor. Nowhere does it say to detract from the simplicity that is in Christ with wranglings over "mysterious" verses or teachings. That's how inquisitions get started.

Originally posted by Terral

Flyer >> I AM A GIRL!!!!

That certainly explains much!
These women ....
I would explain it to your husband ....

OMG!!!!! That was amazing. Absolutely and totally amazing. Women should shut up and go away ... explain it to my husband (man to man I suppose) ...

I haven't read any misinterpretation that disgusting in a long time. Bravo!

Save all that anti-female scripture quoting for when you are dead. You can quote it to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and tell her how she is stupid and unable of understanding God's word without a man to interpret it. And you can tell the mother of John the Baptizer as well .. considering that she isn't the one who was struck voiceless in punishment by God (but her husband was).

FACT of the matter is that a lot of CULTURE was employed in writing scripture. The CULTURE of that time was anti-woman. The MEN who wrote the bible naturally passed their CULTURE into their writings.

Gods commandments = beatitudes.
HUMAN CULTURE = the anti-woman verses you quoted.

And YES it is important that you get it correct in referring to me as a girl. And no it isn't a matter of reading my bio. It's a matter of you being TOLD at least a dozen times by myself and others here, but you were too arrogant to read the posts fully or to correct your errors. THAT is what is glaringly obvious when it comes to you saying 'she' instead of 'he'. Your arrogance and your failure to even think for one moment that you might be wrong about something.

I'll give you this Terral .. you certainly are entertaining.

[edit on 10/27/2006 by FlyersFan]

Hi Sun Matrix (Sparky mentioned):

Sun > Terral, I see no Antichrist in your drawings.

Where is Sparky when we need him to actually “quote >>” someone and present a case for something else using Scripture? You force me to go back up the thread and bring a diagram down in order to show you the difference . . .



This is diagram #66 of 80 from my 780 page manuscript “The Mystery Explained,” which connects the dots between the elemental precepts of Paul’s “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) that he writes about briefly in Ephesians 1:9+10. These diagrams were used in a different ‘context,’ but they can be used in these deliberations to give our readers a better picture of what I am trying to convey. The Antichrist coming to the “Holy Place” (Matt. 24:15) to set up his “abomination of desolation” (Daniel 11:31, 12:11-13) is a “Prophetic” event to be fulfilled very near the “End of the Age” (Daniel 12:13, Matt. 24:3+). We are living within the “2000 Year Mystery Time” NOT seen by the OT Prophets who ‘can’ see everything shaded in ‘blue’ (Kingdom Dispensation) and ‘golden yellow’ (Dispensation of Mosaic Law + New Creation). Satan is actually released prior to the “Great Tribulation,” but the arrow depicts the time that ‘results’ from his release (Rev. 20:7). The seven years “time” of the antichrist (one week = Dan. 9:26) is denoted by the purple period that includes the “Great Tribulation,” just prior to “The Elect” (Matt. 24:30+31) being gathered at Christ’s Second Coming. However, note that “Elijah Appears” to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11) some 1000 Years EARLIER with our “Rapture Of Mystery Church” taking place when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) was still “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Satan and the Antichrist make their grand appearances only AFTER the Kingdom and Temple have been restored for almost 1000 Years still in the future.

Sun >> I see no peace treaty.

The “week” of the peace treaty takes place on the far right hand side of the “1000 Year Day of the Lord” just prior to the “Great Tribulation” (Matt. 24:21) taking place in the “middle of the week” (Dan. 9:27). Here is another:



Your “Prophetic” events take place on the far right hand side of the “1000 Year Day of the Lord” very near the “Great Tribulation” shaded again in purple. Daniel is standing and looking over the top of our current “Dispensation of God’s Grace,” contained by the “2000 Year Mystery Time” of today. Our “Body Rapture / First Resurrection” STARTS the 1000 Year Day of the Lord where the Kingdom (Eze. 47+48) and the Temple (Eze. 40+) are restored to Israel during the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6+7) that START (1Thes. 5:1+2) with that “Lord’s Day” (Rev. 1:10) being “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Daniel can see to the “End of the Age” (Dan. 12:13) very well, but he sees NOTHING inside the ‘red’ section of the diagram; which includes our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17).

Sun >> I see no white horse.

Does Paul mention any white horses to the Thessalonians or Corinthians? No. You are mixing together the things SEEN by the Prophets with the Mystery events NOT SEEN by any of them. Here is yet another:



Note the “gospel” information provided near the bottom of the diagram near the “Prophecy / Mystery Timeline.” John the Baptist (Matt. 3:1-6), Christ (Matt. 4:17-23, 9:35) and the Twelve (Matt. 10:5-7) all preached that the “kingdom of heaven” was indeed “at hand” (Mark 1:14+15) 2000 years ago, but that Kingdom (Matt. 16:16-19) “bride” (John 3:29) was “cut off” (Rev. 20:4) with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Paul’s “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) superseded the Kingdom Dispensation, until our Rapture allows the Holy Spirit to be released (day of redemption = Eph. 4:30) to return to the awaiting Elijah on the earth to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11) with the “spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17). The Holy Spirit now living within all of our collective bodies (1Cor. 3:16, 6:19) will be concentrated within the single living tabernacle of Elijah, as the ‘prophet’ (Acts 3:19-26) coming to restore the “tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18) via the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ THAT is ‘the gospel’ of Christ’s prophecy (Matt. 24:14) that MUST go to the ‘whole world,’ so the earth can enter the phase Paul refers to as “in HIS TIME” (2Thes. 2:6). There are no white horses in any of these diagrams, because we see those things FROM HEAVEN; as we have been with Christ “IN” the Lamb of Revelation for the entire 1000 Years contained by the “Day of the Lord.”

Sun >> I see no red horse. What gives?

You guys have been brainwashed by those inheriting the “deluding influence” to continue believing “what is false” (2Thes. 2:11) through the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7), which shows most everyone here mixing the “Mystery Time” AND the “Day of the Lord” prophecies together into a man-made eschatological invention that God sent to NOBODY. Paul is describing how the 1000 Years Day of the Lord will BEGIN with our “mystery” (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:16+17), while Christ (Matt. 24) and John (Revelation 6, 9, 19, etc.) are talking about events taking place 1000 years LATER very near the “END of the Age.” You are mixing together the ‘blood’ (Mystery) and ‘water’ (Prophecy) doctrinal precepts of Christ’s TWO ministries (blood and water = 1John 5:6) without recognizing the VAST differences.

I can explain these things a thousand times using detailed diagrams and Scripture, but many here will NEVER learn to recognize the difference. That is how the ‘deluding influence’ and the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3+4) work for the ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) serving their “angel of light” (2Cor. 11:14). All of this will make perfect sense at the Judgment here (2Cor. 5:10) for my brothers IN Christ AND here (Rev. 20:11-15) for the false brethren among us, but by that time it will be much TOO LATE to revise your views and arguments. Blessed are those who see things properly in their correct context today and use God’s Word to show everyone the difference free of charge. : 0 )

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Valhall:

Valhall >> Come here sweetie and let me give you a big kiss.

You may as well use these underhanded debating tactics, because God knows you cannot “quote me >>” and show anything errant using Scripture. 2Timothy 2:15. I am sorry that our New Testament contains so many commands for the ‘women’ in our congregations that you wish to sweep under the carpet. Instead of showing yourself to be any kind of “scholar” in these deliberations, you come off more like the woman above who knows exactly what she is trying to do.

The Moderators here allow you and your girlfriends to get away with the equivalent of scholarly murder, because they pity the sight of the ‘weaker vessel’ (1Peter 3:7) bearing the ‘glory of man’ trying feebly to debate a man bearing the “image and glory of God” (1Cor. 11:7). How would they react if I used the same trickery in this debate? Heh . . . There is nothing God hates worse than a double standard and authorities using their lofty positions to heartily approve and endorse those under the power of the ‘deluding influence’ to blind (2Cor. 4:3-4) everyone else into believing “what is false” (2Thes. 2:11). Your methods speak volumes more about you than saying anything about me defending the truth of God’s Living Word.

I would love to “quote you >>” writing on this topic, but once again your off-topic dribble has yet another intention and motivation altogether. Anyone led astray by you mocking God and His Word is your worthy disciple deserving of the same fate.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Shortness, Sun Matrix:

Shortness Original >> So the second coming of Jesus is the actually Third coming instead? So Jesus coming to rapture the church doesnt count as the 2nd coming? I'm confused.

Sun Matrix >> During the rapture Jesus does not come to the earth. The dead in Christ and the believers who are alive are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus. The DAY OF THE LORD is the wrath of God.

This is the kind of ignorance we are up against in writing on this mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) Topic. Sun Matrix continues pumping out these pitiful three and for sentence replies using NO SCRIPTURE whatsoever, as if his unsupported opinion means something. It is no understatement to say with 100 percent confidence that the typical ATS member posting on this thread is NOT qualified to be writing on this topic. Mr. Matrix here disqualifies himself by equating the “Day of the Lord” with the “wrath of God,” as if the “Lord’s Day” (Rev. 1:10) is merely an EVENT. Peter writes on the ‘Day of the Lord’ (2Peter 3:10) topic, while insisting that one particular thing should NOT escape your notice; a point that flies over Matrix’s head like a rocket! Peter’s “Day of the Lord” statements are made in THIS CONTEXT:

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.” 2Peter 3:8.

How many New Testament writers use the phrase “a thousand years” in Scripture? Exactly two; Peter (only here) and John in Revelation. The easiest way to view this topic correctly is to carefully examine John’s descriptions of this ‘thousand years’ that is “like one day” to the Lord in relation to Satan being chained in the pit:

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.” Revelation 20:1-3.

The ‘angel’ comes with Christ in the form of the “voice of the archangel” (1Thes. 4:16), as Satan is chained at the same moment “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) puts on immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53). That ‘trumpet’ (1Cor. 15:52, 1Thes. 4:16) is the same trumpet heard ‘behind’ (Rev. 1:10) John to START the “Lord’s Day” (Day of the Lord) way back in Revelation 1. You and I are IN the Lamb of Revelation standing before John in Revelation 1:10-19 as His brand new “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12). Does Scripture show the “Lord’s Day” is simply an event of God’s wrath? NO! Elijah is on the earth restoring all things (Matt. 17:10-11), which Christ says MUST happen first, as Peter describes him as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:19-26! The 1000 Years of the “Day of the Lord” are the same 1000 Years that Satan is chained in the pit, which allows Elijah to restore all things IN THE FIRST PLACE. To understand this simple concept from Scripture, we must connect the dots between Paul’s ‘times and epochs’ teaching with Christ’s teaching on the same topic:

“Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the Day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” 1Thessalonians 5:1+2.

The 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” WILL COME just like a thief in the night, because the “Father Alone” (Matt. 24:36) knows ‘when’ that Period will BEGIN. Paul has just connected the ‘times and epochs’ of Scripture to the “Day of the Lord” itself, saying these Thessalonians (body of Christ) had no need of anything to be written. Why?? Because, they (like us) will see all of those things FROM HEAVEN. Remember that our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) takes place when the “Day of the Lord” is simply “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). The 1000 Years themselves must PASS, before Satan is even released! Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to a particular ‘restoration’ process in answering His disciple’s question to open the Book of Acts (this is very important, so pay very careful attention):

“So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know TIMES OR EPOCHS [1Thes. 5:1+2 above] which THE FATHER [Matt. 24:36] has fixed by HIS OWN AUTHORITY . . .”. Acts 1:6+7.

Jesus Christ just connected the ‘times and epochs’ to “restoring the kingdom TO ISRAEL!” Paul is telling the Thessalonians that “I have no need to write you about the restoring of the kingdom to Israel . . .,” because the ‘times and epochs’ of those “Prophetic” events are contained within the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” itself! Did Jesus Christ send John the Baptist who He says is “Elijah who is to come” (Matt. 11:14)? Think about this carefully . . . No. John the Baptist was sent FROM GOD (John 1:6) to clear the way for Christ’s appearing to Israel. Yes, Christ is coming again (Matt. 24:30-31), BUT the ‘times and epochs’ restoration that The Father has fixed by HIS OWN AUTHORITY represents a ‘SPIRIT’ witness restoring ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21) for Christ to come in “water and blood” (1John 5:6). Elijah is the one coming with the ‘spirit and power of Elijah’ (Luke 1:17), as he is the ‘prophet’ (Acts 3:19-26) coming to restore “all things” (Acts 3:21).

Sun >> The Second Coming is when Jesus comes to earth and sets up his kingdom.

His What? Please use Scripture to prove that Christ appears before Elijah comes first (Matt. 17:10) to restore “all things” (Matt. 17:11). The antichrist appears to make Elijah’s kingdom ‘desolate’ (Matt. 24:15), before Christ returns (Matt. 24:30+31) to judge the living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15). What does Christ say concerning His Kingdom?

“Jesus answered, "My kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is NOT OF THIS REALM." John 18:36.

[Continued]

Christ connects “Your coming” to the “END of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+) by delivering the chronological and sequential events of His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:3-31. Scripture shows “David” seated on the throne during the 1000 Years (Eze. 34:21-25) and again after the resurrection (Eze. 37:11+12) in the New Creation of Revelation 21:1+ (Eze. 37:24-28).



Jesus Christ is the “Lord” saying “Heaven is My Throne and the earth is My footstool.” Isa. 66:1. The Lamb (Christ) at this time “has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary in the TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, not man.” Hebrews 8:1+2. David is the incarnation of Adam who the Lord God (Jesus Christ) formed from the dust of the ground way back in Genesis 2:7 to become our “Eternal Father” (Isa. 9:6). That New Creation (Rev. 21:1) Kingdom established by the marriage of the heavenly (Lord’s Throne) and earthly (Lord’s footstool = David's Throne) kingdoms is the “forevermore” kingdom of Isaiah 9:7, as everything in the heavens and earth (Eph. 1:9+10) are summed up “IN” Christ throughout the ‘ages to come’ (Eph. 2:7).

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral


[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]