LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

Sun Matrix:

Sun >> You see Terral why I don't waste my time with you. Shortness just chopped your theories to pieces using scripture and what good did it do him? I told you anytime I want I can cut your BS to pieces also, but what good does it do to waste my time. You won't acknowledge the facts.

First off, you are wasting time by writing me, which debunks your original statement. Secondly, Shortness is asking a ton of questions and is receiving answers in this debate. All the facts are being acknowledged, as each of us work to present our ‘opposing views.’

Sun >> You say a rapture happens and then a thousand day, DAY OF THE LORD and then the tribulation happens. Funny that the scripture says the DAY OF THE LORD is a day of wrath and happens after the tribulation. (Isa. 13:9 + Matt. 24:21+29). There Terral, I have scripturally shown you that the DAY OF THE LORD is a day of wrath when the world is punished. You seem confused about this.

Not at all. The 1000 Years (2Pet. 3:8) “Day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10) includes the ‘wrath of God’ aspects you cite, but only AFTER “My Spirit” has been poured out on “ALL MANNKIND” (Acts 2:17). The “gospel of the kingdom” MUST go to the whole world (Matt. 24:14) FIRST very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+), before the antichrist can appear in the ‘Holy Place’ to set up his “abomination of desolation” (Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13 = Matt. 24:15). You are selectively removing the ‘restrainer’ aspects of the “Day of the Lord” prophecies that must be fulfilled FIRST to misrepresent the “Day of the Lord” as a mere ‘event’ of God’s Wrath that comes AFTER those things are make complete. The context of your verses above are centered around the ‘wrath’ aspect, apart from giving Elijah sufficient ‘time’ to restore anything; much less “ALL THINGS” (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:21) FIRST.

The remainder of your dribble is nonsense, since you refuse to ‘quote me >>’ to give any of your rambling ‘context’ to anything I actually ‘did’ say.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Hi WhiteRain:

WhiteRain >> You said, "and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." Then, in the same post you said, "The angels incarnate among us were deceived by NOBODY in God's infinite realm, but women are those who deceived men." Please clarify. Was "Adam not deceived"? or did a woman deceive that man?

First of all, you are quoting Scripture in your “You said,” segment above.

“And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” 1Timothy 2:14.

Adam existed in his singularity (Gen. 2:7) expression with Eve (water) and Seed (blood) IN him for thousands and thousands of years, before he named everything to be named to sit down and become bored. Satan and his evil forces of this darkness (Eph. 6:12) have been in power since the darkness fell way back in Genesis 1:2. Did Adam (Gen. 2:7) fall for the deception of the serpent??? No. The Lord God placed Adam in a deep sleep and removed Eve (water) and “her seed” (blood) from his side (Gen. 2:20-22), which is typical of the blood and water coming from Christ’s side at Calvary (John 19:34). This placed Adam in the spirit position bearing the image and glory of God (John 4:24), while the woman stands in the “helper” (Gen. 2:18+20) water witness position like the Holy Spirit (John 16:7) in the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) triune mystery set.

The ‘seed’ (her seed) then stands and enlarges between Adam (spirit) and Eve (water) like the Son of God (Luke 1:35) is the holy Child enlarging to have all things subjected to Him (1Cor. 15:27). Did the serpent deceive Adam in his reduced ‘spirit’ form? NO! Scripture says, “but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” However, Adam (spirit) is typical of Elijah and the ‘angels’ and Eve is typical Moses and of ‘all living’ hosts of this universe, which includes “men.” The “Seed” (Gal. 3:16) standing between them at the Mount of Transfiguration is the “Only Begotten Son” and our Lord Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve are “one flesh” (Gen. 2:21-24), which means Eve being deceived translates to the ‘body’ half of the total “Adam” (Gen. 2:7) equation. Therefore, “Yes,” Eve fed the fruit of the forbidden tree to her husband (“SHE GAVE also to her husband with her, and he ate.” Gen. 3:6).

WhiteRain >> You also said "the angels are hanging on every word I reveal of this mystery..." Surely, even you must admit that last statement is evidence of an overinflated sense of self-importance. Why do you continue to seek the validation of us ATS bums when you have the angels hanging on your every word?

Not at all. Every ATS topic I start in this room is kicked down to BTS, which reveals me to be the bum. Scripture teaches that our church will judge the world and the angels. 1Cor. 6:2+3. What does Scripture say?

“It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which ANGELS LONG TO LOOK.” 1Peter 1:12.

Some among us realize that for every man and woman living in the “Eve / Moses” half of Creation (Visible Universe) there is yet another greater “Adam / Elijah” angelic host in an ‘invisible’ (Col. 1:16) adjacent realm very much looking forward to being restored to ‘immortality’ (1Cor. 15:51-53). The ‘angels’ in this sense are the greater halves of everyone actively participating in these deliberations AND those simply reading and judging everyone here; not to mention the myriads of angels anticipating the outcome of how all of this transpires. Has God opened my eyes to see ‘these things’ (2Pet. 3:14-16) in a clearer “Light” (John 1:4-9, 2Cor. 4:6) than the typical ATS member? Yes! How about if we suspend the ‘over inflated’ aspect of your criticism, until we all stand to be judged (2Cor. 5:10) for our works. After all, God shall judge us all on what “He” has given each according to His grace. Therefore, God expects me to “reprove, rebuke and exhort, with great patience and instruction” (2Tim. 4:2), NOT by what He has given to you; but by what He has certainly given me to see through His Living Word. What does Scripture say?

For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both TO ANGELS and to men.” 1Corinthains 4:9.

Scripture fails to exclude the angels as active participants of the status quo condemning us to death or our becoming a spectacle to the world. The fact that our mystery church shall also judge the angels makes everything coming from our mouths even that much more important to them all! Imagine your greater half peering intently into this physical realm in anticipation of being rejoined with his lesser half to suddenly realize you have received the ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes. 2:11) to be come a ‘servant of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) to the ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14). Have you forgotten that the Judge of us all says, ”By YOUR OWN WORDS I will judge you, you worthless slave.”? Luke 19:22. Therefore, the greater angelic half of EVERYONE HERE is watching, not only my words, but every syllable oozing from the mouth of everyone making contributions to this thread. Suppose for one minute that everything I have presented in every post here is 100 percent truth. Where does that leave everyone else pointing fingers at me and denying the truth of God’s Word?

Among the things I know and can see clearly is the fact that everyone here is standing in Judgment before God in His Infinite Realm right this moment for crimes connected directly to the Satanic Rebellion. The finger each of you point at me reveals three crooked witnesses accusing you! Those saying “Terral is deluded” are deluded themselves and those saying “Terral has a demon” has one of their very own! Those seeking to slander are being destroyed by slander in God’s Infinite Realm and “By YOUR OWN WORDS.”

[Continued]

WhiteRain >> Your charts are shiiiineeee but with your much speaking you have thoroughly obfuscated the issue.

I am expected to “quote you >>” to present my ‘opposing views’ in this debate. Since there is one of me and ten of you, then obviously my words outnumber yours. The truth of our Rapture is described efficiently as possible here ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) You have failed to say one thing on this Rapture Topic, so please examine yourself carefully before pointing fingers.

WhiteRain >> The "mystery" was not something that couldn't be understood; it was esoteric knowledge that the "initiated" could understand quite well. Paul said "For I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL the counsel of God". If that is true, then the pre-trib rapture is a mystery indeed. It's not a mystery, dude, it doesn't exist.

Heh . . . Are we ‘dudes’ and ‘chicks’ now? How crass. There is no such thing as any ‘pre-trib’ Rapture taught in Scripture. Does Christ describe any ‘gathering’ BEFORE the Great Tribulation of Matt. 24:21? No. Paul’s mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) takes place 1000 years before anything in Matt. 24 even begins. That is the simple truth requiring very few words indeed.

WhiteRain >> I've read 15 pages of back and forth bickering (very unchrist-like btw) with verses that thoroughly repudiate your "mystery" but you refuse to hear.

The critics cannot repudiate things related to a ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Topic they can in no way even see. I have sown the seeds and perhaps another will water, but God must cause the growth (1Cor. 3:6+7). While my wish is for everyone here to see all things pertaining to the multifaceted “the Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) Jewel, God’s hand will be upon those HE chooses through the illumination of His Spirit. Here is the definition of musterion again ( www.antioch.com.sg... ). How did Christ react to the moneychangers at the Temple in His day?

“And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15.

Our deliberations in these ‘war of words’ is a far cry from beating you with cords . . . Christ will judge the living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15) and in case you are unaware, many will be driven into the ‘lake of fire.’

WhiteRain >> He that hath an ear, let him hear. And, I guess, he that hath not an ear, let him be anathema. Good luck.

Be very careful about pointing that finger, because the angels certainly are hanging on every word . . .

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

originally posted by Speekeroftruth

This is probably the biggest lie that the church tells its congregation, other than that all other religions come from Babylon. Anyway, there is nothing in the Bible that would suggest that Jesus is going to favor any group over others and some how sweep them away before the terrors of the Anti-Christ.

The Church is often referred to as the Catholic Church. In fact, I know no other protestant body that claim to be The Church because they are not the "Mother Church" which all other churches sprang from.

You saying The Church committed these lies is insulting. As a Catholic I can assure you I have never met a single other Catholic that believed this protestant non-sense. These little churches split with their own ideologies, changing things from the original, if changed hundreds of years after the fact and claimed to be a new truth with no actually backing, one would assume that it is a complete lie? So anyways, the point being The Church did not fabricate these tales, little sub groups did, nut jobs did and then people actually followed their teachings. To think that this god will come to Earth and select individuals and raise them physically above the Earth and then leave the rest to die is nothing more then sick perverse way of letting ones self feel they are in some way morally superior and on better grounds then the rest of humanity, that is, people who believe this will believe they would be raised up, and they expect the ones around them to burn in hell through their self righteous line of thought. The entire concept goes against the grain of Christian Mythology.

Hi St Udio:

St. Udio >> here's a simpler sample of intellectual exercise; the 'Body-of Christ', to be caught-up/changed/raptured, are all those who died-in-Christ or are Living-in-Christ since the Jesus ministry in 32AD-till that future rapture instant. All those to be caughtup /changed/ raptured will be re-enactment of when the Jesus person himself got that same type of 'glorified body...raised uncorruptable' at his rapture (what we know as His resurrection).

Very good. However, you must replace the term “resurrection” with the word “ascension” and make the connection to Acts 1:9-11. Our mystery “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) is the antitype of Christ ascending in to heaven. The Holy Spirit returning to fall upon Elijah in order to ‘restore all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11) is an antitype of the Day of Pentecost and the Holy Spirit falling on the ‘early rains’ bride shortly afterwards. The difference is that the “spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17 = the Holy Spirit) will be concentrated upon ‘one man’ sent ‘from God’ (John 1:6) in the person of Elijah (Matt. 11:14 IF you can bear it).

St. Udio >> ...therefore, that multitude of people at the rapture, are basically assimilated into a new entity, what scripture calls the Body-of-Christ

Very good! We are ‘created IN Christ Jesus’ (Eph. 2:10) as the ‘new creature’ (2Cor. 5:16+17) and the ‘new creation’ (Gal. 6:15) of the Pauline Epistles. That is to be contrasted with the kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) ‘cut off’ (Rev. 20:4) 2000 years ago to be raised ‘with us,’ as they are found upon the ‘sea of glass’ (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) “before the throne” (Rev. 7:15).

St. Udio >> Then, with that new cosmic Body-of-Christ existing in a heavenly/ cosmic reality, the 'Rule with an Iron Hand Theocracy' is able to create the Millennial Kingdom & Mansion for the soon-to-come 'Bride', all here in the physical earthly realm

Yes! Very Good. Elijah cannot come to restore all things (Acts 3:31-26), until the ‘heavenly’ environment is first cleansed of Satan’s evil forces of darkness (Eph. 6:12). The devil is chained (Rev. 20:2) to START the “Lord’s Day” (Day of the Lord = Rev. 1:10) back in Revelation 1. Elijah then appears to restore all things, as the entire 1000 years are contained by the first three chapters of Revelation. The events of the final ‘short time’ (Rev. 20:7) are told over and over again from various perspectives from Revelation 4 to 20. However, the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12 = that’s us) has been “IN” the Lamb since way back in Revelation 1:10-19. The ‘trumpet’ heard behind John (Rev. 1:10) is the same trumpet of 1Cor. 15:52 and 1Thes. 4:16 that sounded at our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). Only then can Elijah begin preparing the ‘late rains’ (James 5: 7) kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) through offering the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ ( Matt. 24:14) all over again; just like John the Baptist in the very beginning (Matt. 3:1-6, Mark 1:4+5, etc.).

St. Udio >> This exercise understands that just as the Jesus ministry went thru the Sorrows, The Passion & Death as a requirement for getting the new Glorified Body. So too will the multitude that previously died-in-Christ over the past 2 millennium, and those that remain who are living-in-Christ will suffer the great tribulation, and be around as the bowls & vials are poured out on humanity...before they can get their own Glorified Body at the 'Change'-'Caught Up'-'Rapture' event @ 7th Trumpet.

No sir. This is where your interpretation meets a brick wall. Our ‘trumpet’ is heard behind John back in Revelation 1:10, with the seven of Revelation sounding very near the ‘end of the age’ some 1000 Years LATER. You are merging the START (1Thes. 4:16+17 = 2Thes. 2:2 = Day of the Lord “comes”) with the ‘end of the age’ events taking place only AFTER Elijah has restored all things AND the “gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) goes to the whole world. Other than that your interpretation and mine appear to be in agreement.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Where to start? Where to start?

First, the name is whitewave, not whiterain. Whiterain is a fabric softener, i believe.

Second, I know I was (ultimately) quoting scriptures that you had quoted. And you still failed to answer the question. Basically, "Eve, being deceived FELL into transgression", whereas Adam, not being deceived, JUMPED into transgression head first with his eyes wide open.

Next, that "spirit/water/blood" thing relating to your charts sounds a litle new-age to me. Not bashing new-age-just looks a little suspect when posted by a bible-quoting person.

You also mentioned "Triune mystery set." Is THE Almighty (singular article) "triune" now? Another error of scripture reading-a topic for another thread.
When you quoted 1 Pet. 1:12 about the things that angels long to look into; that verse is about the GOSPEL (good news of Christ in you), not the rapture.

What verses do you offer to support your thesis that "Adam, (spirit) is typical of Elijah, and the angels and Eve is typical Moses"?

Human beings are half angelic? QUOTE: "Therefore the greater angelic half of everyone here..."

You may see these things as being "off topic" but the point in posting them is to show that if your logic (and scriptures) are so twisted on other things, how can we be expected to believe anything you say? You get offended when people don't quote you in their refutations but it's hard to refute a theory when so many assumptions to the basic premise have to be made before it can be argued. I have to assume that 1) Adam is spirit,(his very name suggests otherwise) 2) he is typical of Elijah, 3) human beings are "half angelic", etc.
Your verses have repeatedly been shown to be in error of interpretation but you continue stubbornly on. I haven't posted trib arguments here because we've had this same discussion before on bts and another ats thread.

I admire your perseverence and the conviction to carry on (despite overwhelming evidence that you are wrong) but I am concerned that by missing the simplicity that is in Christ you will have eventually "missed the point". Those pharisees and scribes you mentioned that Christ lambasted and the money-changers that He whipped out of the temple, weren't they the ones who thought they were up to date on God's law/word? They thought they had a pretty good handle on things and wound up crucifying the Lord of glory. There will come a time when so-called Christians will kill the elect thinking they do God's service. Let's say, for the sake of peace, that everything you say about the rapture is true (it's not but...) then SO WHAT! Will the gospel of Terral/gospel of the rapture save anyone? Will anyone be enlightened and moved to pray/ask forgiveness for their sins/ask Christ to be their redeemer? I won't offer an opinion on those questions because it seems to me the answers are obvious.

Originally posted by Terral


The remainder of your dribble is nonsense, since you refuse to ‘quote me >>’ to give any of your rambling ‘context’ to anything I actually ‘did’ say.

Like the scripture says...........THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES AFTER THE TRIBULATION

I proved it in scripture and you have failed in proving different.

You are nothing more than a lost confused individual who needs help rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
To think that this god will come to Earth and select individuals and raise them physically above the Earth and then leave the rest to die is nothing more then sick perverse way of letting ones self feel they are in some way morally superior and on better grounds then the rest of humanity, that is, people who believe this will believe they would be raised up, and they expect the ones around them to burn in hell through their self righteous line of thought. The entire concept goes against the grain of Christian Mythology.

Like most Catholics you have little knowledge of the truth.

A Christian is not self righteous, he or she is righteous before God by accepting the free gift of salvation in Christ.

You are in a religion of works that cannot save you. (I speek from experience)

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Rockpuck
To think that this god will come to Earth and select individuals and raise them physically above the Earth and then leave the rest to die is nothing more then sick perverse way of letting ones self feel they are in some way morally superior and on better grounds then the rest of humanity, that is, people who believe this will believe they would be raised up, and they expect the ones around them to burn in hell through their self righteous line of thought. The entire concept goes against the grain of Christian Mythology.

Like most Catholics you have little knowledge of the truth.

A Christian is not self righteous, he or she is righteous before God by accepting the free gift of salvation in Christ.

You are in a religion of works that cannot save you. (I speek from experience)

LOL!!!!!!!!

Ok.. So the religion that founded your religion, which I am sure is some kind of obscure baptist branch off of some kind. The Catholic religion is your churches mother, whether it can save or not is up to your own opinion, I personally do not agree with Christian Mythology, I am however not incorrect in saying that this theory of "rapture" is a joke of religious theories.. Any fool can claim some new and fantastic way in which one can claim their importance that god will hand pick him.

As for you not thinking Christians are not self absorbed, self righteous, self superior just look at what you wrote.

I rest my case.

~~essentially as response to Terral--->

Jesus himself said that Elijah had already come again, in the person of John the Baptist...

the view i jotted down was only meant as an understanding of the meanings of scripture rather than an 'interpetation'

it is also understood that the whole Jesus era, His 3 1/2 yr ministry beginning with
John the Baptist, His tribulation, death, resurrection (change of body/rapture) then ascension, & finally the temple destruction
was the 62nd week of Daniel-----which is the forerunner of the [final] 70th week of Daniel
(AKA; end time, tribulation)

& just as explained by the Jesus message in Mat 24, the chronology the sequences of events involving the timelines/narrative of the Jesus era will play out again during the final or 70th week/end of age/ great tribulation period ...

sure, there is a time span between the body of Christ
(Jesus in ?32-33 AD as the first 'born' Son-of-man
& the endtime 'changed'/'raptured' multitude being consolidated or incorporated into this new creation/body............ at the end ! of the Great Tribulation~)

there's also a time span betweeen this body-of-Christ that will make ready the kingdom & temple to welcome the future Bride...

no-one can determine what those time durations are,

consider that between the Jesus ministry when he also became the Christ
(during the 62nd prophetic week)
and in the final 70th week, when Christ will claim the body-of-Christ in the rapture event....
there will have been 7 Prophetic 'weeks' -> 62 ........ 70= 7 intervening weeks

that time duration will not work out to 1,000 or 2,000 or 5,000 years with any type of multipications or factors of powers...the conjecturer is faced with that proverbial "Brick Wall", which you pointed out to me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`end of post~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




PS: as a sidebar.....kindly don't preach at me about this
((here's another curve ball at ya! perhaps the 'bride' is actually that body of
humanity we know historically as the 2 groups; Israelites & Ishmalites
a group much expanded from todays, Jews and Arabs , as we would call them))





[edit on 28-10-2006 by St Udio]

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Rockpuck
To think that this god will come to Earth and select individuals and raise them physically above the Earth and then leave the rest to die is nothing more then sick perverse way of letting ones self feel they are in some way morally superior and on better grounds then the rest of humanity, that is, people who believe this will believe they would be raised up, and they expect the ones around them to burn in hell through their self righteous line of thought. The entire concept goes against the grain of Christian Mythology.

Like most Catholics you have little knowledge of the truth.

A Christian is not self righteous, he or she is righteous before God by accepting the free gift of salvation in Christ.

You are in a religion of works that cannot save you. (I speek from experience)

LOL!!!!!!!!

Ok.. So the religion that founded your religion, which I am sure is some kind of obscure baptist branch off of some kind. The Catholic religion is your churches mother, whether it can save or not is up to your own opinion, I personally do not agree with Christian Mythology, I am however not incorrect in saying that this theory of "rapture" is a joke of religious theories.. Any fool can claim some new and fantastic way in which one can claim their importance that god will hand pick him.

As for you not thinking Christians are not self absorbed, self righteous, self superior just look at what you wrote.

I rest my case.

I'm sorry about your Ignorance. The Catholic Religion come straight from Babylon and is a religion of works. The fact is Constantine attempted to take over Christianity when they could not kill all the Christians. What is an obelisk doing in the Vatican courtyard............I doubt you know what and obelisk is.

Time to open your eyes.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Like most Catholics you have little knowledge of the truth.

That was incredibly ignorant. Also incredibly wrong. Sounds like typical fundamentalist arrogance.

You are in a religion of works ..

Wrong. The Catholic church says you are saved by faith. Works is an outward sign of that faith. BTW .. go read James .. Faith without works is DEAD.
Also BTW .. while Martin Luther was rewriting and reworking the bible to fit his agenda, he ADDED the word 'alone' after the scripture quote - salvation by faith. Yep. He mucked with the bible even after the bible itself said not to add or subtract from it. Chew on that for a while

... that cannot save you.

No Catholics are getting to heaven? That's really stupid.

(I speek from experience)

An EX-Catholic eh? Obviously one who didn't have a clue as to what the Catholic church really teaches about faith and salvation. Betchya flunked CCD.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I doubt you know what and obelisk is.

That is totally uncalled for. It is rude. It is a misrepresentation. It is an insult. All things that a supposed christian shouldn't be doing. I hope you don't go around saying that you are a saved Christian Sun Matrix. You aren't acting like a disciple of Christ.

Sun Matrix ..

1 - You have just lost all crediblity with me. Not that you care, but your anti-Catholic post, full of error and anti-Christian behaviors, just destroyed your credibility.

2 - You are so off the topic that it isn't even funny. Your erroneous anti-Catholic notions have nothing to do with LaHeye and the Left Behind series - which is the topic of this thread. Then again - LaHeye is notoriously anti-Catholic and is pushing his anti-Catholic agenda in the books (subtle indoctrination into erroneous beliefs about Catholics). Guess you two have that in common eh? Erroneous anti-catholic beliefs and pushing anticatholicism based on those beliefs.

You are SERIOUISLY off topic.



[edit on 10/28/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by St Udio
mistaken post

[edit on 28-10-2006 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by St Udio
Jesus himself said that Elijah had already come again, in the person of John the Baptist...

Matthew 11:[14] And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

If Jesus had been accepeted, then John the baptist would have been the Elijah to come. Jesus was rejected, so Elijah is still to come.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Rockpuck
To think that this god will come to Earth and select individuals and raise them physically above the Earth and then leave the rest to die is nothing more then sick perverse way of letting ones self feel they are in some way morally superior and on better grounds then the rest of humanity, that is, people who believe this will believe they would be raised up, and they expect the ones around them to burn in hell through their self righteous line of thought. The entire concept goes against the grain of Christian Mythology.

Like most Catholics you have little knowledge of the truth.

A Christian is not self righteous, he or she is righteous before God by accepting the free gift of salvation in Christ.

You are in a religion of works that cannot save you. (I speek from experience)

LOL!!!!!!!!

Ok.. So the religion that founded your religion, which I am sure is some kind of obscure baptist branch off of some kind. The Catholic religion is your churches mother, whether it can save or not is up to your own opinion, I personally do not agree with Christian Mythology, I am however not incorrect in saying that this theory of "rapture" is a joke of religious theories.. Any fool can claim some new and fantastic way in which one can claim their importance that god will hand pick him.

As for you not thinking Christians are not self absorbed, self righteous, self superior just look at what you wrote.

I rest my case.

I'm sorry about your Ignorance. The Catholic Religion come straight from Babylon and is a religion of works. The fact is Constantine attempted to take over Christianity when they could not kill all the Christians. What is an obelisk doing in the Vatican courtyard............I doubt you know what and obelisk is.

Time to open your eyes.

Let me tell you something about ignorance, though you apparently have experience in that area as well right?

A person of ignorance is one who would post on a message board about a topic they know absolutely NOTHING about.

For instance, why on earth does the Vatican have an obelisk in St. Peter's Square? That is the name of it by the way, and one of true ignorance would surly call it a court yard. If you had half the intelligence of a small rodent you might have called it a plaza, which it is, a grand plaza with an obelisk in the middle. Is there something wrong with an obelisk? No, Europeans where infatuated with Egypt, they plundered it of it's histories and its treasures.. you will find these obelisks all over Rome, all over Europe for that matter.. it is a show of power, of exotic plunder, of history. One of ignorance would surly think it is a satanic and evil four sided pointed rock.

But to be back on topic, you know NOTHING about Catholicism, you refer to it as a religion, it is not. Christianity is a religion, Catholicism is a CHURCH within that specific religion.

For one who thinking the Catholic church is that of Babylon, you would be surprised, if you had the intelligence to comprehend your own history, that ALL churches within the Christian religion ARE SUB-CHURCHERS of the Catholic Church.

you took our ways, you took our beliefs, hell you even use OUR bible that WE compiled.. how are you different? Il tell you, since your display of absolute ignorance would say you don't know.

A man, any man, he claims for instance that people will physically rise above earth before the Anti-Christ returns. People follow him and hes rich, and he heads a new church. More importantly he does not answer to the Church, which is an organized Monarchy where we all answer to the Holy Father. Protestant religions have absolutely no organization as to what to believe that one town could believe something different then another, you could have a small town church that follows small town suspicions.. this is not organized religion.. this is reading a book and allowing wild ideas to grow wild.. you end up with ridiculous ideas like "God hates fags!" and "The Rapture will save the believers!" up to "being a man I deserve all the women I wish regardless of their age!" ... all about power, all about ignorance.

You know nothing about the history of the religion you follow, you know nothing about the history of your church and where your original message originates, you are ignorant in your beliefs that you are and your people the cesspool that is mankind anymore, your radical views that you are in some way superior on any level, that your above the rest, that the one deity praises on YOU and YOU alone is so sickening, so disgusting, so pathetically arrogant that I almost feel sorry for you.

Do not spread your lack of knowledge on boards like this where we can all point and laugh at your ignorant statements and your lack of education and your disregard of history, keep that for your Sunday sermon.

Originally posted by Rockpuck


The Church is often referred to as the Catholic Church. In fact, I know no other protestant body that claim to be The Church because they are not the "Mother Church" which all other churches sprang from.

You saying The Church committed these lies is insulting.

Well, this is incredibly arrogant - and unread. Yoo hoo - "the church" references any believers in Christ. And all other churches didn't spring from the Catholic Church. Although a lot of them got wiped out by, or almost wiped out by, the Catholic Church.

No Vall sorry, any church within the Christian religion is an offspring of The Church. Go into a Baptist church and everything is Roman Catholic in nature aside from a few things they decided not to follow any more, a few extras they decided to follow and they yell alot.

Since it has come up I will chip in. An obelisk is a pagan symbol and rooted in paganism. It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ and I truly believe it is offensive to God. Obelisks are built on a 10 to 1 ratio, as far as height to width. The image in Daniel Chapter 3 that was built and that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego refused to bow down to, was probably an obelisk. It should not be associated with Christianity.

And to ruffle more feathers, the Washington Monument(also an obelisk)and Statue of Liberty are pagan symbols and I feel deep in my spirit are offensive to God. There is also a statue on top of the Capitol Building in Washington D.C. that is of pagan origin.

These symbols do not have anything to do with Jesus Christ and are an abomination. If we procalim to be Christians then we should shun these symbols and not defend them.

Considering your god decided to ignore all civilizations on earth until the Hebrews, he has no right to complain now does he?

Understand it is Mythology, "Paganism" in which the obelisk's where built had a name .. you reference any thing from Egyptian or Roman Mythology to Druidism under one title. Christianity is not infallible truth. If that is the way your god chooses to act, spare me.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Considering your god decided to ignore all civilizations on earth until the Hebrews, he has no right to complain now does he?

Understand it is Mythology,

Where did you come up with He ignored people until Abraham(Abram)? That's not true. He's been looking after people since the beginning of creation.

It may be mythology to you, but it shows what's in the heart, and can be used to judge what is right and wrong, and who is right and wrong.