LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

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posted on Sep, 27 2006 @ 01:53 PM
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THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL?

By

Alan Campbell

ALL over the world today there is an awakening to the near return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and a growing interest in the signs of the times. As Bible believing Christians we rejoice at this phenomenon, yet sad to say, in almost every case the doctrine of the Lord's return has been mixed in with the teaching that He will return first secretly and 'rapture' or take away His Church. Although Church History will show that such a theory has only come into prominence over the last one hundred and fifty years, today it is spreading like wildfire, in books, and even films, and accounts for the teaching in 90% of Full Gospel and Fundamentalist Churches and Bible Colleges, world-wide. This being the case it is our duty as students of God's prophetic Word to examine this doctrine of the Secret Rapture, and ask ourselves -'Is it Scriptural?'

THE ORIGINS

When we remember that the Secret Rapture theory was virtually unheard of and untaught until around 1830, it is essential to examine its origins first. Such a teaching was unknown to the early Church Fathers e.g. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, who were convinced that the Christian Church would pass through great tribulation at the hands of the antichrist system before the return of the Lord. Furthermore the Rapture theory was not taught by the great stalwarts of the Reformed Faith - Huss, Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Cranmer or even by the Wesley brothers in the 18th Century. Whence came this teaching therefore and where did this novel. idea arise?

At the time of the Reformation, the first Protestants widely believed and taught that the Papacy was antichrist, and the Roman Church the Harlot System of Revelation 17. It therefore became necessary for certain Romish theologians to take the pressure off the Pope by inventing a new school of prophetic interpretation now known as Futurism. It was a Jesuit priest named Ribera (1537-1591) who first taught that the events prophesied in the books of Daniel and Revelation would not be fulfilled until three and a half years at the end of the age when an individual world dictator called Anti-Christ would arise. Thus Ribera laid the foundation of a system of prophetic interpretation of which the Secret Rapture has now become an integral part.
No Rapture

This is probably the biggest lie that the church tells its congregation, other than that all other religions come from Babylon.
Anyway, there is nothing in the Bible that would suggest that Jesus is going to favor any group over others and some how sweep them away before the terrors of the Anti-Christ.

While it is certainly true that believers will be "divinely" protected that does not imply their abscence. What most don't understand about the "end times" is that the Anti-Christ's reign will only be 3 and a half years. Many state that it will be seven, but when one realizes that the anti-Christ doesn't enforce his "initiatives" for the first three and a half...well, do the math.

Anyway, during the three and a half years believers will be out in the wilderness trying to survive. This,I am afraid, is about the closest thing to a "rapture" that anyone will see. The so-called "rapture" will be a separation of believers from the rest of the non-believing world.




posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 09:20 AM
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There is no secret rapture. Secret Rapture mythology is so bad that it doesn't even rate enough to call it bad theology. It's just bunk.

It has been discussed and debunked here -
www.belowtopsecret.com...

There is good information on that thread the completely discredits any secret rapture.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
There is no secret rapture. Secret Rapture mythology is so bad that it doesn't even rate enough to call it bad theology. It's just bunk.

It has been discussed and debunked here -
www.belowtopsecret.com...

There is good information on that thread the completely discredits any secret rapture.



Well, now there is a psyop project that the government is supposedly working on called Project Blue Beam that could mock a "rapture" type of incident. Project Blue Beam is supposed to be a project where holographic images can be projected onto the sky...There have been rumors that the U.S government is planning a mock "rapture" to make people think that "God's people" have been taken into heaven and that the "end" is nigh. I don't know if there is any truth to the rumors about the plan or not.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 01:58 AM
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I totally agree!

The man who really kick-started the notion of "the Rapture" was an Englishman named John Nelson Darby, in the 1830's. He heard of a girl from the Highlands of Scotland--I think her surname was MacDonald--who allegedly was prone to all kinds of "mystical" experiences.

Supposedly Miss MacDonald had some kind of vision of Christians being "lifted up to Heaven" before the Final Tribulation--or something like that. Anyway, Darby took that idea and ran with it. He named it "The Rapture" and preached and wrote incessantly about it. Apparently he convinced a lot of people that it was in the Bible (it isn't!) and that it was an ancient Christian belief. (Again--it isn't!)

The fact is, the whole idea of the Rapture doesn't have a theological leg to stand on!!

It really disturbs me to see so many people--especially kids--devouring those wretched "Left Behind" books. They think this is a genuine part of historical Christianity. Well...IT IS NOT. These people are being brainwashed by LaHaye and Co. Our Christian ancestors wouldn't have had a clue what they were talking about!!!

This whole "Rapture" notion is growing so rapidly that it seems MOST Christians now think it's a genuine tenet of the Christian faith!
And what's worse--many of their ministers seem to think so too!!

This is a total distortion of 2000 years of Christian belief. And I find it extremely disturbing!!!

What to do about it tho?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:17 AM
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I read these rapture threads with much amusement. Why argue over whether an idea or belief is true or false? Believing spiritual things is a process that requires faith not proof. I can understand open minded people discussing a topic, but so far, none of the rapture threads have reflected this. Instead it is people who’s minds are made up either pro or con.

Let it go folks. If you don’t believe in a pre, mid or post rapture or any rapture at all, that’s fine. If you do believe in a rapture, then let that belief be what it is; a hope! This is a doctrine and in no way is a test of one’s “spiritual temperature.” Since one cannot prove that a future incident is or is not going to happen, just let it go!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:13 PM
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But actually, there are some very real and present dangers because of the prevalent loyalty to this fairy tale (an issue that probably only believers would see any validity to) but the point is....any of us...if we are of God and we seek Him, then we HAVE GOT to look out for one another - regardless of differences involving religion....

Truth is truth. And none of us have access to the whole she-bang at one time. But there is never any excuse for letting someone fall in a 8ft deep pot hole (that you saw fine but didn't move yourself to speak up about).... And all that we can do is speak our peace and then leave it in God's hands. Those that don't re-evaluate when presented with any sort of ?? then will have the charge of their pitfalls.

The danger is: what happens to these people when things DON'T GO as they assume and totally believe they will? The faith issues I know God can work out. But there could be some real human trouble amongst the masses - there is a very big possibility, in fact... I've had concern over this for several years..

The biggest factor is fear. The thing that motivates such die-hard loyalty to escapism at such a cost to others is fear....and faith is inversely proportionate with fear...

That is the kindling for violence and could mean casualties and tragedy.

Truly.

Don't you think?

But also - what to do?
Besides pray and speak out when it's the right time?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 02:39 PM
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SpeakerOfTruth:

Here is a contradiction in terms: First of all the thread starter works under the pretense of being a ‘Speaker Of The Truth,’ then presents the theory in the OP without quoting one verse of Scripture! The assertion that LaHaye’s Rapture Ideology (with which I certainly disagree) was not even considered until 1830 is a joke in itself, because one cannot offer physical evidence for or against what Christians believed prior to the invention of the printing press. Are there records of what 'every' Christian sect has believed for the past 2000 years? No; get real! What should matter to the reader is what Scripture actually says on this Bible topic without regard for what mere men think at all.


Speaker >> This is probably the biggest lie that the church tells its congregation, other than that all other religions come from Babylon. Anyway, there is nothing in the Bible that would suggest that Jesus is going to favor any group over others and some how sweep them away before the terrors of the Anti-Christ.


Always be wary of strangers bearing thesis statements about things which ARE NOT. Why not spend your efforts writing fancy dissertations on what God ‘is’ teaching in Scripture; rather than waste time describing what might very well be beyond the grasp of your current apprehension? Before we go one step further, I encourage everyone to read Vines’ definition of the Greek term “musterion” (#3466 = mystery). Read This! (very important to this topic)


musterion primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT THE MYSTERIOUS (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known ONLY BY DIVINE REVELATION, and is made known in a MANNER and AT A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY WHO are ILLUMINED BY HIS SPIRIT. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies KNOWLEDGE WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is TRUTH REVEALED. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the MYSTERY which hath been HID FROM ALL AGES and GENERATIONS: but NOW HATH IT BEEN MANIFESTED to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV). "It is used of . . .” www.antioch.com.sg... See the full definition here (plug in ‘mystery’).


Next, do we find Paul himself connecting this ‘Rapture’ (1Thes. 4:17) topic to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) anywhere? Yes we do! Paul writes,


Behold, I tell you A MYSTERY; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.


Now, hold the true definition of the term “musterion” in the forefront of your mind (read it again if needed) and ask yourself if the Doubting Thomas’ of this topic have yet to have these things revealed to them by the illumination of God’s Spirit! Paul is obviously teaching SOMETHING right here to these Corinthians, which he will do again to the Thessalonians in describing the same trumpet where the dead are raised first:


"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain will be CAUGHT UP [Harpazo #726 = Rapture together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.


Now, how many ATS members and guest readers truly believe The “Rapture” Ideology Was NOT EVEN CONSIDERED Until 1830?? I believe we must be willing to accept that early Christians faced the same misinterpretations from factions (1Cor. 11:19 = sects) like Christians find among our Denominations today. To think early Christians somehow banned together and believed the same exact doctrines is shortsighted and foolish. The presence of over 2000 denominations in the USA alone shows the basic inclination of people to disperse and congregate again within groups that polarize around similar ‘interpretations’ of the same verses. Since Paul’s teachings in 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 4 did not suddenly appear in our modern day Bibles, but have been there from the beginning, we should come to realize that men interpreted these things in many different ways. What we do not see is Paul trying to connect his “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) to any ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24, which was not even written for another decade after his Thessalonian Epistles. I explain the difference here ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ). I encourage SpeakerOfTruth to read from Paul’s teaching and to ‘speak the truth’ on what Paul ‘is’ teaching. GL.


Speaker >> While it is certainly true that believers will be "divinely" protected that does not imply their abscence. What most don't understand about the "end times" is that the Anti-Christ's reign will only be 3 and a half years.


That is a line of bullony from someone who does not know this topic very well. What does Daniel see?


"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a FIRM COVENANT with the MANY FOR ONE WEEK, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:26+27.


[Continued]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 02:39 PM
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The ‘prince who is to come’ (antichrist) cannot possibly make a covenant for ‘one week’ (7 years), if he is only in power for three and a half years. Please think this through carefully: The antichrist will be the leader of an international assembly of allied nations LONG before he ever makes the covenant of peace for 7 years. These (one week and middle of the week) prophesies are written from the context of the “firm covenant’ (Dan. 9:27) that he makes for the seven years, but NOT with any context to his rule over the combined assembly of United Nations against the Kingdom of Israel. Daniel is also NOT making prophecies about ‘our time’ of today, which does not even include a sanctuary (Temple) for the antichrist to make desolate! We are living in a mystery time that none of the OT Prophets were given to see:



Daniel stands in the position of the “Prophet” (OT Dispensation of Law) looking across the top of our mystery time, but very much into the “1000 Years Day of the Lord.” Christ and Daniel (Matt. 24:15) are prophesying about events transpiring at the END of the age (Matt. 24:3+) over on the far right hand side of the “Day of the Lord” that has yet to even “COME” (2Thes. 2:2). You and I are situated on this timeline where you see the “Today” sign in red (Dispensation of God’s grace = Eph. 3:2). Paul is describing the START of the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2, 2Thes. 2:2), while Christ is describing the END of the same 1000 Years (Rev. 20:5) period that Satan is chained in the pit.


Speaker >> Many state that it will be seven, but when one realizes that the anti-Christ doesn't enforce his "initiatives" for the first three and a half...well, do the math.


And this is an argument? Holy . . . The ‘initiatives’ you are talking about are contained in the ‘firm covenant’ he makes for “one week.” Daniel 9:27. What he ‘enforces’ in your mind has no bearing at all on his authority to make the covenant in the first place. There is nothing in Daniel’s prophesies to limit this wicked prince’s power, authority or time of rule to this seven year period at all. He might be in power for ten, twenty or thirty years for all we know, because the prophecy is written from the context of the ‘covenant;’ which does have a specific time attached.


Anyway, during the three and a half years believers will be out in the wilderness trying to survive. This,I am afraid, is about the closest thing to a "rapture" that anyone will see. The so-called "rapture" will be a separation of believers from the rest of the non-believing world.


LOL . . . In other words, if SpeakerOfTruth cannot see Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17), then there is no such thing in your Bible either. The very first thing Mr. Speaker here must do is provide his thoughtful commentary on what Paul ‘is’ teaching in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 14:13-17. If he and his “NO RAPTURE!” ‘deny, deny, deny’ comrades refuse to provide that simple explanation, then we have all the proof we need that their house of cards is built upon sand!

GL in the debate,

Terral


[edit on 6-10-2006 by Terral]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:42 PM
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Terral ~

are you a prophet? Are you Daniel? Did you know Moses or Christ? How about Paul?

Does God reveal His intentions to you before they come to pass - as Amos declares is His way?

If you can't answer yes to any of those, then I'd say you're wasting a lot of convection heat....

The word 'rapture' came from the Latin Vulgate - turning 'sieze' into a word that truly and literally means a state of ecstasy.

After all the martyrs were slain the truth was taken and we had famine instead.

So it doesn't matter about all that.

People believing lies which could cause them heartache is the issue - a lie is a lie and is not of God and whoever is of God cares about his brother and esteems truth.

Contentious people focus on their own ends.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:51 PM
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Well-said, Queenannie! (Or should I amend that to "well-written"?
) Anyway--very well expressed!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 05:00 PM
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Terral, and here I am quoting
YOU:

Make the "Doubting Thomas" Explain What Paul "IS" Teaching

Er--what PAUL is teaching????


And here I always thought that Christians worshipped and followed the "teachings" of Jesus Christ!!


Since when did Christians begin worshipping Paul instead???



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by abovereproach
Terral, and here I am quoting
YOU:

Make the "Doubting Thomas" Explain What Paul "IS" Teaching

Er--what PAUL is teaching????


And here I always thought that Christians worshipped and followed the "teachings" of Jesus Christ!!


Since when did Christians begin worshipping Paul instead???


Please don't be confused by the sign on the door. Will wolf in sheeps clothes help?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 07:38 PM
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Not EVEN a wolf...
and even so.....

what is a wolf to a lion?

or an angel on a horse??!?!?

It's time for us all to 'lie' down together, anyway, in peace.

The lion, the lamb, the wolf...

Our kids can play with adders and fiery cockatrices (pheonix birds)...

Why worry?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 07:39 PM
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Hello, Sun Matrix!




posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 07:47 PM
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Hello again, queenannie!
I think our posts crossed!!


Yes, I do agree with you--once again! Peace is wonderful--this world is beautiful in so many many ways, and yes, I believe that many people are good, but sadly there are still wars, and arguments, and people fighting each other over all kinds of things...*sigh*

I too would love to live in a world where "the lion will lie down with the lamb" and we shall "study war no more."

When I get discouraged, I like to read from (among other things!
) the Book of Ecclesiastes. I dearly love the verses about "For every thing there is a season..."

It is so true, and somehow it reassures me that in the end, things will work out for the best.

"A time for war, and a time for peace"---I like that second part!

God bless!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by Terral
The ‘prince who is to come’ (antichrist) cannot possibly make a covenant for ‘one week’ (7 years), if he is only in power for three and a half years.


Who is the prince and why is he an antichrist?
Why can you just take one week and stretch it to 7 years?



Please think this through carefully: The antichrist will be the leader of an international assembly of allied nations LONG before he ever makes the covenant of peace for 7 years.


There is no THE antichrist. There's a bunch of them. Just read the letters from John to get an idea of just what an antichrist is. (after all, his letters are the only place in the bible that the word antichrist EVER appears, and only 4x I might add)

And if there was someone who was to rise up against your god...well, then, by definition he can't be an antichrist. Because the definition of antichrist is someone who doesn't believe that yeshuah was the son of god.



These (one week and middle of the week) prophesies are written from the context of the “firm covenant’ (Dan. 9:27) that he makes for the seven years, but NOT with any context to his rule over the combined assembly of United Nations against the Kingdom of Israel. Daniel is also NOT making prophecies about ‘our time’ of today, which does not even include a sanctuary (Temple) for the antichrist to make desolate! We are living in a mystery time that none of the OT Prophets were given to see:





posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 08:51 PM
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Oh man!


Somehow I missed that part about the "United Nations". I should have expected it. Maybe Kofi Annan is the Antichrist??


Yes, take cover, everybody--here comes the One World Order!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 09:19 PM
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Well, at least this is starting to look more like an exchange of ideas rather than a pissing match. So far, I’ve gleaned that both sides are acting out of concern for the other side. Those who do not believe in a rapture are concerned that those who do may lose faith and fall away when the Great Tribulation occurs and we are all still here. Those who do believe in a rapture are concerned that those who don’t will be left behind. OK, those are both valid concerns.

I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church and was taught that the rapture would indeed take place. Imagine my surprise when I discovered many Christians who did not believe this doctrine. When I became a Christian about ten years ago, I began to study the Bible for myself. I have read much literature both pro and con for the rapture of the Saints. It all boils down to interpretation of the scriptures. There are many valid arguments for both sides.

I’m also surprised that no one has mentioned the argument over whether the Pseudo Ephraem (373 A.D.) document is pro or con rapture. I am looking for a complete translation of this text, but so far can only find parts.

I would truly enjoy a serious discussion on this subject.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 09:27 PM
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Hi, darkelf!


I'm not familiar with the "Pseudo Ephraem" document. Could you post a link to it or something?

It sounds intriguing!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by Terral


Next, do we find Paul himself connecting this ‘Rapture’ (1Thes. 4:17) topic to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) anywhere? Yes we do! Paul writes,


Behold, I tell you A MYSTERY; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.


Now, hold the true definition of the term “musterion” in the forefront of your mind (read it again if needed) and ask yourself if the Doubting Thomas’ of this topic have yet to have these things revealed to them by the illumination of God’s Spirit! Paul is obviously teaching SOMETHING right here to these Corinthians, which he will do again to the Thessalonians in describing the same trumpet where the dead are raised first:


terral
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain will be CAUGHT UP {Harpazo #726 = Rapture} together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.



The two things you insist on, Mystery & Rapture

the mystery involves "and we will be changed" from top quote box
the mystery involves "we who are alive and remain will be caught up" from the lower quote box.

the mystery concepts written as 'changed' and in the other 'caught up'
were in scripture since it was written and remains still in those same words....

It was the Mr. Darby dude in the 1830's substituted the word "Rapture" for this event.
..it is his concept word---not the scriptures!!



imho, the Mystery of instantly changing something, in this case mortal but living flesh into incorruptable bodies...is not an unpresidented mystery!
The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has been doing the ritual of the Mass for millennia, where communion wafers & wine undergoes 'Transsubstantiation'
and mysterously turns into the body & blood of Christ.

sounds pretty much like the mystery at the Last Trumpet!? no?





Terral
Now, how many ATS members and guest readers truly believe The “Rapture” Ideology Was NOT EVEN CONSIDERED Until 1830?? I believe we must be willing to accept that early Christians faced the same misinterpretations from factions (1Cor. 11:19 = sects) like Christians find among our Denominations today.


the body of early Christians didn't have scripture available to read for themselves, the Clergy went about instructing the congregations as they interpeted it,
they doled out learning & teachings for 10s of centuries, all the way until the reformation era. in the dark ages & the inquisition the clergy sold forgiveness
in a sense...the age of enlightenment was spurred on by reasoned persons & the availability of shared knowledge...such as printing the Bible (although only the privledged elite could read)...
You have a pecular view of 70AD-1890's AD, that the congregations were both free and informed...on the contrary, if the average person wasn't active & tithing to the Church ?monopoly?. they were scorned by their peers & became social pariahs, even stoned or burned at the stake for not witnessing to G0d...




Terral
What does Daniel see?


"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war;


yes, in the 62nd week (of Daniels 70 week timeline) Christ was crucified
then there is a undetermined span of time that comprise weeks 63 - 69
then the endtimes begin for the final 70th week {Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation}

but in Daniel, there is the verse concerning the 'regathered people'
most say it is the 1948 Israel...
however this regathered people from all nations are living in unwalled cities & having no gates, then Daniel poses the question, ?Is it for land, riches? that the
King of Fierce countenance is attacking those living in peace & (in Israel)

if this endtimes King is either Gog/Magog or even the AC...it sure doesn't
stand to reason that our present time (with the recent Hezbollah-Lebanon-Israel war) or the fast building of the 'seperation wall' / 'security fence' follows anything
resembling the endtimes verses in Daniel....
which in turn knocks the legs out of any impending rapture/ being changed instantly/ or being caught up in the clouds, mystery.

its great mental exercise and/or cause for the study of scripture,
but, i'm tired, and its past my zonk out time





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