LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

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posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio
It was the Mr. Darby dude in the 1830's substituted the word "Rapture" for this event.
..it is his concept word---not the scriptures!!



First of all, the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of the medieval Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as the primary Latin translation of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, as we shall see later, it was Protestants who introduced the word "rapture" into the English language from the Latin raeptius. It was Jerome’s Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazô used by Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is usually translated into English with the phrase "caught up." The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpazô means "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently." This is the same meaning of the Latin word rapio "to seize, snatch, tear away." It should not be surprising to anyone, that an English word was developed from the Latin which we use today known as "rapture."
www.raptureready.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source


Just a little history of the word “rapture” for those who are curious. BTW this is from a site that although they may believe in “the rapture,” they do not believe in a pre-trib one.

Hi abovereproach, I am still searching for a full text. Grant Jeffries, a pre-trib rapture theorist believes that the document was written by Ephraem the Syrian. The document “The Book of the Cave of Treasure” was translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary, at Jeffrie’s request. He uses this passage from the sermon “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World”:



2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (Italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .

www.pawcreek.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source


The ten paragraghs of the sermon can be found at the above cited source. Debunkers claim that Jeffries left out a portion of the writings, but I cannot find the portion that they are claiming is left out. However, I did find this article discrediting Pseudo Ephraem.



In contradistinction, in what must be labeled, “an act of desperation,” in order to blunt the effective criticisms of Bray, MacPherson and others, pretribulationists offer Pseudo-Ephraem—one document out of 1500 years of church history. A document with a very dubious past is the best pretribulationists can scavenger up. Written by a person of no reputation, the document depends on the popularity of a past giant of the faith. It sets forth supposedly a twophased return of the Lord. A “truth” pretribulationists insist could only be found in “seed” form in the early church fathers. At present, this author cannot remember any doctrinal position of the conservative faith that utilizes a suspect document as proof for its authenticity. Perhaps, this is the reason why so few pretribulationists have weighed in with their voice of support for Pseudo-Ephraem.

www.solagroup.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source


I will continue my research.




posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by darkelf

Originally posted by St Udio
It was the Mr. Darby dude in the 1830's substituted the word "Rapture" for this event.
..it is his concept word---not the scriptures!!



First of all, the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of the medieval Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as the primary Latin translation of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, as we shall see later, it was Protestants who introduced the word "rapture" into the English language from the Latin raeptius. It was Jerome’s Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazô used by Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is usually translated into English with the phrase "caught up." The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpazô means "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently." This is the same meaning of the Latin word rapio "to seize, snatch, tear away." It should not be surprising to anyone, that an English word was developed from the Latin which we use today known as "rapture."
www.raptureready.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source



First, thanks for the information.

'raeptius' a word used by a proprietary source (the Vulgate) which explains to the clergy just what emphasis/interpetation of church doctrine is to be administered to the masses by the 'shepherds' of the flock
...is your clear & evident basis that the Greek word 'harpazo'=should be read 'rapture'.
& was clearly found in Bible Scripture all along?

by that 3 degrees of separation, the same kind of "seed" basis-of-proof
your third quote box points out is just fine for discrediting the 'truth' of pre-tribulationists
but the same 'seed' of 'truth' contortions is just fine for the support of Rapture theology having been in Christianity....since, i guess, Constantine !?
my head spins!


the word 'Rapture' is handy (but controversial), & does wrap around the whole body of thought
and should not be tossed out because it does not follow a fundamentalist position concerning scripture...
however Rapture should have some sort of warning attached to it, ??print it in a color not already designated with a meaning?? so as to make it clear that the Rapture is human (by Church authority) derived



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 06:42 AM
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Haha, don't shoot the messenger. I'm only the piano player.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 10:13 AM
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Hi QueenNannie:


Nannie >> Terral ~ are you a prophet? Are you Daniel? Did you know Moses or Christ? How about Paul? Does God reveal His intentions to you before they come to pass - as Amos declares is His way?


Please forgive your holiness, but the subject is the “Rapture” and your assertion that this ideology was NOT even considered until 1830. Which of my many statements are you trying to address – or is this yet another Opening Post? Asking me 20 questions about prophets, Daniel and Paul is not going to defend your ridiculous poorly defined thesis of the OP. The readers should be wondering why you are diverting attention away from the points I made against you to enter into these interrogation proceedings.


Nannie >> If you can't answer yes to any of those, then I'd say you're wasting a lot of convection heat.


Obviously what you’d say is wasted on me. Let’s debate your “Rapture” Topic. Thank you.


Nannie >> The word 'rapture' came from the Latin Vulgate - turning 'sieze' into a word that truly and literally means a state of ecstasy.


No sir. Please trade in your ‘scholar’ badge for something more modest. The word ‘rapture’ is taken from the Greek term “Harpazo” (#726 = to seize, carry off by force = www.blueletterbible.org... ) used by Paul in 1Thessalonians 4:17 and translated “caught up.”


Nannie >> After all the martyrs were slain the truth was taken and we had famine instead. So it doesn't matter about all that.


Please present this kind of testimony with a credible third party reference like Strong’s Lexicon or Vines’ Expository Dictionary of NT Words. I believe you are using Webster’s instead. Heh . . .


People believing lies which could cause them heartache is the issue - a lie is a lie and is not of God and whoever is of God cares about his brother and esteems truth.


Thank you for highlighting my point, as you are guilty of telling stories in the OP of this thread. You are supposed to be giving us ‘your’ interpretations of 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 4:15-17. Why are you refusing to tell us the truth???? [ my notes ]


“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet [1Cor. 15:52] of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN will be CAUGHT UP [“Harpazo” (#726)] together with them IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.


Everyone writing on this thread saying there is “NO RAPTURE” should be offering ‘their’ interpretations of what Paul is teaching in these verses. Otherwise you are guilty of simply burying your head in the sand, according to the ‘Ostrich Defense.’


Nannie >> Contentious people focus on their own ends.


You should start threads to prove a thesis you ‘can’ defend using Scripture, instead of making wild and foolish claims that contradict God’s Living Word. What is Paul teaching in the verses above? That is ALL we need to hear out of you!!! How do you grow the audacity to sit there and type out that early Christians had no abilities to interpret God’s Word correctly for these verses??? Go ahead and keep pointing fingers at everyone else, because that leaves three witnesses pointing straight back at you.

GL in the debate, if you ever decide to start defending your own errant hypothesis.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 10:43 AM
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Hi Abovereproach:


Terral Original >> Make the "Doubting Thomas" Explain What Paul "IS" Teaching

Above’s Reply >> Er--what PAUL is teaching???? And here I always thought that Christians worshipped and followed the "teachings" of Jesus Christ!! Since when did Christians begin worshipping Paul instead???


Nobody said anything about worshipping Paul but you. The thirteen Epistles To Gentiles written in the New Testament are all authored by the Apostle Paul through the “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1). Paul was not crucified for anybody, as God raised Christ from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3+4). You are refusing to recognize the differences between the “Son of God” (Rom. 1:4, Gal. 2:20) and the “apostle” He sent! What does Scripture say?


“But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear MY NAME before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for MY NAME’S SAKE." Acts 9:15+16.


Paul explains himself perfectly, saying,


“For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.” 2Corinthians 4:5.


How about if we highlight the error AboveReproach is making and highlight that against the backdrop of her apparent hostilities, diversionary tactics and total lack of knowledge on this topic:

Scripture says,


“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law ALSO says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I WRITE TO YOU are the LORD’S COMMANDMENT. But if ANYONE [that includes YOU] does not recognize this, he [or she in this case] is NOT recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:34-38.


The ‘church’ (ekklesia # 1577) is the ‘called out assembly’ like the ‘saved’ writing on the ATS Board as we speak. Are we to consider the professing Christians here truly ‘saved’ and a ‘called out assembly?’ Of course. If the ladies here want to raise their voices in the assembly and deliberate the essentials of these topics like men, then they are still required to recognize that what Paul writes “to you” is the “Lord’s Commandment!” Period! If you do not care to recognize this, then you are not even recognized as members of the called out assembly! Do not expect me to address you as sisters “IN” Christ Jesus, when God’s Word and the Lord’s Commandment itself tells me you are NOT EVEN RECOGNIZED. Please allow me to demonstrate how this works: Where and how did Paul receive our gospel for today??


“For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a REVELATION of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 1:11+12.


Paul did not suddenly begin making things up as he strolled along. Everything contained in the Pauline Epistles and particularly all things connected to “the Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) was given to him through “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1). When I say Paul’s Gospel, I am talking about the good news given to him via a “revelation of Jesus Christ.” Scripture and God’s Spirit calls our gospel for today Paul’s “my gospel” in Romans 2:16 and 16:25. Does that mean Paul died for anyone? No. It means God chose Paul to be the ‘apostle’ (one sent) to herald the message. Peter refers to ‘the mystery’ given to Paul as the “wisdom given him” (2Pet. 3:14-16), saying,


“Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.” 2Peter 3:14-16.


You are confusing Christ’s commands to Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24) in the Four Gospels with the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ CHRIST HIMSELF is giving us through Paul. Now, if we understand one another, then perhaps we can get down to the business of actually debating the topic and Nannie’s bold assertions of the Opening Post.

GL to both of you,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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Hi Arcane:


Terral Original >> The ‘prince who is to come’ (antichrist) cannot possibly make a covenant for ‘one week’ (7 years), if he is only in power for three and a half years.

Arcane >> Who is the prince and why is he an antichrist?


We know the ‘prince’ (Dan. 9:26) is the antichrist, because of the ‘desolations’ (abomination of desolation = Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13 = Matthew 24:15) connection made by both Daniel and Christ. Paul refers to him as the “son of destruction” coming to the “Temple of God” in 2Thessalonians 2:3+4. John refers to him as the “beast” in Revelation 13. Christ says he comes to stand in the holy place [of the Temple] in Matthew 24:15.


Arcane >> Why can you just take one week and stretch it to 7 years?


This is prophetic lingo that requires the reader to understand (Christ’s words in Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14). The ‘covenant’ has a lifespan of seven years (one week), but the antichrist breaks the covenant in the ‘middle of the week’ (3.5 years). We know these things by the number of days that Daniel connects to the prophecy:


"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished (Dan. 9:27 + 11:31) and the abomination of desolation is set up (Matthew 24:15), there will be 1,290 days (3.5 years + or -). How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise (Rev. 20:11-15) again for your allotted portion at the end of the age." Daniel 12:11-13.


Bear in mind that both Daniel (Dan. 12:13) and Christ (Matt. 24:3) are describing the ‘end of the age,’ which is the END of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2, 2Pet. 3:10 = “Lord’s Day” = Rev. 1:10) that has yet to even BEGIN (2Thes. 2:2 = comes). While Paul is talking about the day of the Lord STARTING (1Thes. 4:16+17 = when “day of the Lord” COMES = 2Thes. 2:2), Christ (Matt. 24) is talking about the same 1000 Years Period coming to AN END. Believers in Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message in the world TODAY are Raptured (1Thes. 4:17) to START the 1000 years Day of the Lord. You and I are seated “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) and judge the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3) from IN the Lamb of Revelation in the ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17).


Terral Original >> Please think this through carefully: The antichrist will be the leader of an international assembly of allied nations LONG before he ever makes the covenant of peace for 7 years.

Arcane >> There is no THE antichrist. There's a bunch of them. Just read the letters from John to get an idea of just what an antichrist is. (after all, his letters are the only place in the bible that the word antichrist EVER appears, and only 4x I might add).


Please forgive, but your statements are against God's Word . . . Scripture is very selective and very precise on this topic, saying,


“Let no one in any way deceive you, for unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that HE takes HIS SEAT in the temple of God [holy place = Matt. 24:15], displaying himself as being God.” 2Thessalonians 2:3-4.


Daniel, Christ, Paul and John all agree that the ‘antichrist’ will come to incarnate on this earth in the same way that Jesus Christ did 2000 years ago. However, Scripture confines his appearance to “his time” (2Thes. 2:6), which is at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) and only AFTER the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ has gone to the whole world (Matthew 24:14).


Arcane >> And if there was someone who was to rise up against your god...well, then, by definition he can't be an antichrist. Because the definition of antichrist is someone who doesn't believe that yeshuah was the son of god.


You are transliterating Scripture incorrectly – again. The ‘many antichrists’ of 1John 2:18 are the ‘sons of disobedience’ (Eph. 2:2) of the upcoming Kingdom Dispensation under Elijah, when he comes to restore ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11). They are not to be confused with ‘the son of destruction’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) coming to enter the Temple of God and display himself AS GOD. For a proper interpretation, we must understand something about the “Christ in you” doctrine that Paul teaches in Colossians 1:24-27 pertaining to our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) in the world today. Christ lives in me through my obedience to the gospel, which makes me a member of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) and a “Christian” (Acts 11:26). However, there is also an ‘antithesis’ doctrine teaching the antichrist also indwells those under the power of the ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes. 2:11) bound for Judgment.

Scripture is calling us Christians as the members of the “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12), but does not take the initiative to call those baptized into the antichrist anything like Antichristians. Instead, Scripture simply refers to them as “many antichrists.” However, this in NO WAY reduces Christ to becoming the members of “Christ’s body” anymore than the incarnation of the antichrist on earth is reduced to the members of his collective body. Both Christ and the antichrist shall make grand appearances at the ‘end of the age,’ with the devil’s son appearing 3.5 years (= in the Temple = holy place = Matt. 24:15) before God’s Son (Matt. 24:30+31).

God bless you,

Terral



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 11:38 AM
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St. Udio:


Udio >> The two things you insist on, Mystery & Rapture: the mystery involves "and we will be changed" from top quote box
the mystery involves "we who are alive and remain will be caught up" from the lower quote box.


No sir. I insist on being “quoted >>” to give your words context to something I ‘did say’ in this debate. The ‘mystery’ aspect comes from Paul’s descriptions in 1Cor. 15:51-53 (51), while the term ‘Rapture’ comes from his descriptions in 1Thes. 4:13-17 (17 = caught up).


Udio >> the mystery concepts written as 'changed' and in the other 'caught up' were in scripture since it was written and remains still in those same words.... It was the Mr. Darby dude in the 1830's substituted the word "Rapture" for this event...it is his concept word---not the scriptures!!


Somebody came up with the word “Bible” for the Holy Scriptures. I refuse to throw mine away because people somewhere decided to use the term. The term “Rapture” is taken from the Greek term “Harpazo” (#726). Darby did not invent the term “Harpazo” or any other Greek word from Scripture. You guys need to sit down and write your own commentary on what Paul is teaching in 1Cor. 15:51-53 AND 1Thes. 4:13-17 ASAP. If you cannot twist together a paragraph or two of thoughtful commentary on THIS TOPIC, then you have no business writing on this thread IMHO. Of course, everyone on God’s green earth can come here and write about anything they like, but that is not forwarding or opposing Nannie’s thesis in the OP of this thread.

God teaches our Rapture in 1Thes. 4:16+17, whether you guys ever wake up to the truth or not.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by Terral
Hi QueenNannie:


It is ANNIE not 'nannie.' leave the queen part off, if you like, but get the name right or don't use it at all. Thanks.



Which of my many statements are you trying to address – or is this yet another Opening Post? Asking me 20 questions about prophets, Daniel and Paul is not going to defend your ridiculous poorly defined thesis of the OP.


I don't have any such 'defined thesis.' I don't need one. I'm just asking you to declare yourself. If you have authority for interpretation then you are a prophet and can say so. If not then, not.


The readers should be wondering why you are diverting attention away from the points I made against you to enter into these interrogation proceedings.

I doubt there are many readers of any of my posts, Terral. And with you and I together, I imagine that we're probably only going to be heard by one another.


As far as interrogation proceedings are concerned - for your sake I'll strike that presumptous comment off the record - the grace period is in still in effect and I realize you don't recognize the judge.



Obviously what you’d say is wasted on me. Let’s debate your “Rapture” Topic. Thank you.

It's not 'my topic,' Terral - I just posted a reply on the thread. You'd do well to pay more attention.

I'm not one to debate, either. It is an evil and contentious waste of time. I say what I have to say and discuss with those who wish to do so. I don't need to debate - what is the purpose of debate? What is gained?


No sir. Please trade in your ‘scholar’ badge for something more modest.

Okay, how about 'slave?'


Please present this kind of testimony with a credible third party reference like Strong’s Lexicon or Vines’ Expository Dictionary of NT Words.


How about 'thus saith the LORD?' That's the best I can give you. It works for me.


Thank you for highlighting my point, as you are guilty of telling stories in the OP of this thread.


ONCE AGAIN, Terral - it isn't my thread. And I DO NOT tell stories. Why do you persist in your strong willed disarray?


Everyone writing on this thread saying there is “NO RAPTURE” should be offering ‘their’ interpretations of what Paul is teaching in these verses.

Why? You wouldn't understand. It will be happening at midnight, though - let's talk tomorrow, okay?


You should start threads to prove a thesis you ‘can’ defend using Scripture, instead of making wild and foolish claims that contradict God’s Living Word.

I cannot contradict myself, Terral. And the word of my FATHER needs no defense - the sword is to given me to slay deception and unrighteousness in the world.


How do you grow the audacity to sit there and type out that early Christians had no abilities to interpret God’s Word correctly for these verses???


God grew me in His garden, Terral. I didn't even realize - I consider myself, even now, just a worthless weed. But I DO trust AND obey the One who Made me; and what you feel is 'audacity' is what He has granted me as 'boldness.' A lot is required, it would seem - and you might never encounter another as bold and outspoken as I.

Audacity is also correct, though - just not what I think of. Doesn't matter, though, in the long run, does it?

Audacity:
1. boldness or daring, esp. with confident or arrogant disregard for personal safety, conventional thought, or other restrictions.
2. effrontery or insolence; shameless boldness: His questioner's audacity shocked the lecturer.

I have confidence in my God and no reason, anymore, for any fear or bearing of past shame. So, okay - I AM audacious. Whatever floats your boat, Hiram.


Go ahead and keep pointing fingers at everyone else, because that leaves three witnesses pointing straight back at you.


No, just two.





[edit on 10/7/2006 by queenannie38]



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 01:19 PM
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Hi Annie Sun Matrix (mentioned):


Annie >> It's not 'my topic,' Terral - I just posted a reply on the thread. You'd do well to pay more attention.


Thank you for pointing out my error. You are right (SpeakerOfTruth’s Thread) and I was wrong. However, the remainder of your post is off-topic whining. You and Sun Matrix make a nice team.

GL in the debate,

Terral



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Terral


Asking me 20 questions about prophets, Daniel and Paul is not going to defend your ridiculous poorly defined thesis of the OP.


Too ridiculous to even respond.
Tell, me, since I am in such "error," why is it that Mr. Lahaye has chosen to take a subject that was already well known about and make jhis millions? You see, the so-called "church" are the deceivers in the "great" deception that the Lord will schew on the mind's of men. The whole "rapture" ideology is part of it. I suggest you wake up.

[edit on 7-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 11:46 AM
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I just completed a blog entry on this very subject myself. I am including as much of it here as I can (until I run out of character count). You may read the complete blog entry here:

blog.abovetopsecret.com...

The False Teaching of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

The Exodus can be taken as a foreshadowing of the preservation of the righteous who endure the trials. They were not taken from Egypt prior to having to endure the plagues. Their faith and obedience had to endure through the trials before they were freed.

Christ, as always, was our prototype. His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane was that if it was the will of God that this cup pass from him; that he not be required to endure the suffering, the trials that awaited him. But he had to endure the trials before attaining the resurrection. What person on this earth can deem themselves more worthy to be dismissed from any trial of their faith than the only begotten son of God would have been? As Christ endured his tribulation, was then resurrected and transfigured and finally ascended to heaven to be with his Father, so shall the church be required to endure some portion, if not all, of the Tribulation before being "caught up", changed in the twinkiling of an eye, an taken into the Kingdom of God.

But above all that the ante-Nicene church fathers said on this subject, as with all subjects of faith we should always take the words of Christ as the superior authority on the matter. And Christ, himself, clearly laid out the timeline of tribulation and the resurrection of the dead in Christ and "rapture" of the living believers.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Matthew 24: 29-31

It is sad that anything else should be said on this matter once Christ has instructed us, but because of the deceptive teachings that have infiltrated the Christian doctrine over the centuries since Christ's ascension, we are left to bring together those teachers who immediately followed him....as if he needs men's support in order to be believed.

Irenaeus

Irenaeus Against Heresies

Book IV

The preservation of Rahab's family after the 7 trumpets a foreshadowing of the preservation of the righteous after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation.

Chapter XX, verse 12:


And when the entire city in which she lived fell to ruins at the sounding of the seven trumpets, Rahab the harlot was preserved, when all was over [in ultimis], together with all her house, through faith of the scarlet sign; as the Lord also declared to those who did not receive His advent,--the Pharisees, no doubt, nullify the sign of the scarlet thread, which meant the passover, and the redemption and exodus of the people from Egypt,-- when He said, "The publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of heaven before you."(9)


Note, she was required to endure the battle (the tribulation), but was saved by her act of faith (the scarlet sign). She was not taken prior to the battle (tribulation). Her faith was required to endure through-out the trial.

Book V

Chapter XIII, verse 1:


As, therefore, those who were healed were made whole in those members which had in times past been afflicted; and the dead rose in the identical bodies, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend both healing and life to His handiwork, that His words concerning its [future] resurrection may also be believed; so also at the end, when the Lord utters His voice "by the last trumpet,"(6) the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: "The hour shall come, in which all the dead which are in the tombs shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have done good to the resurrection of life, and those that have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."(7)


Chapter XXIX, verse 1:


And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.


Hermas

The Pastor

Book First - Vision Second

Chapter II


Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints; but to the heathen, repentance will be possible even to the last day. You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. Stand stedfast, therefore, ye who work righteous, ness, and doubt not,(12) that your passage(13) may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life.(14)


Vision Fourth

CONCERNING THE TRIAL AND TRIBULATION THAT ARE TO COME UPON MEN.


Chapter I.

Twenty days after the former vision I saw another vision, brethren(8)--a representation of the tribulation(9) that is to come. I was going to a country house along the Campanian road. Now the house lay about ten furlongs from the public road. The district is one rarely(10) traversed. And as I walked alone, I prayed the Lord to complete the revelations which He had made to me through His holy Church, that He might strengthen me,(11) and give repentance to all His servants who were going astray, that His great and glorious name might be glorified because He vouchsafed to show me His marvels.(12) And while I was glorifying Him and giving Him thanks, a voice, as it were, answered me, "Doubt not, Hermas;" and I began to think with myself, and to say, "What reason have I to doubt--I who have been established by the Lord, and who have seen such glorious sights?" I advanced a little, brethren, and, lo ! I see dust rising even to the heavens. I began to say to myself, "Are cattle approaching and raising the dust?" It was about a furlong's distance from me. And, lo ! I see the dust rising more and more, so that I imagined that it was something sent from God. But the sun now shone out a little, and, lo ! I see a mighty beast like a whale, and out of its mouth fiery locusts(1) proceeded. But the size of that beast was about a hundred feet, and it had a head like an urn.(2) I began to weep, and to call on the Lord to rescue me from it. Then I remembered the word which I had heard, "Doubt not, O Hermas." Clothed, therefore, my brethren, with faith in the Lord? and remembering the great things which He had taught me, I boldly faced the beast. Now that beast came on with such noise and force, that it could itself have destroyed a city.(4) I came near it, and the monstrous beast stretched itself out on the ground, and showed nothing but its tongue, and did not stir at all until I had passed by it. Now the beast had four colours on its head-black, then fiery and bloody, then golden, and lastly white.

CHAP. II.

Now after I had passed by the wild beast, and had moved forward about thirty feet, lo ! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber, clothed entirely in white, and with white sandals, and veiled up to her forehead, and her head was covered by a hood.s And she had white hair. I knew from my former visions that this was the Church, and I became more joyful. She saluted me, and said, "Hail, O man!" And I returned her salutation, and said, "Lady, hail !" And she answered. and said to me, "Has nothing crossed your path?" I say, "I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord(6) and His great mercy I escaped from it." "Well did you escape from it," says she, "because you cast your care(7) on God,(8) and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than by His great and glorious name.(9) On this account the Lord has sent His angel, who has rule over the beasts, and whose name is Thegri,(10) and has shut up its mouth, so that it cannot tear you. You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord(11) His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord, and He will direct them. Trust the Lord, ye who doubt, for He is all-powerful, and can turn His anger away from you, and send scourges" on the doubters. Woe to those who hear these words, and despise them
13) better were it for them not to have been born."(14)

CHAP. III.

I asked her about the four colours which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to me, "Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters." "Yea, Lady, said I, "make known to me what they are." "Listen," said she: "the black is the world in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must perish through blood and fire: but the golden part are you who have escaped from this world. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue stedfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing. Remember those things which were written down before." And saying this, she departed. But I saw not into what place she retired. There was a noise, however, and I turned round in alarm, thinking that that beast was coming.(15)


Please note - he was not saved from facing the beast, nor was he extracted from facing the beast, but endured and boldly faced the beast through faith. He escaped from this trial by enduring to the end, not by being extracted from the threat. Just as we will be expected to endure and boldly face, through faith, the coming Great Tribulation this represents.

Tertullian

The Soul's Testimony

Chapter LV


These persons, who are "servants above their Lord, and disciples above their Master,"(7) would no doubt spurn to receive the comfort of the resurrection, if they must expect it in Abraham's bosom. But it was for this purpose, say they, that Christ descended into hell, that we might not ourselves have to descend thither. Well, then, what difference is there between heathens and Christians, if the same prison awaits them all when dead? How, indeed, shall the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is already sitting at the Father's right hand, when as yet the archangel's trumpet has not been heard by the command of God,(8)---when as yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth, have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming,(9) in company with the dead in Christ, who shall be the first to arise?(10)


Note that the being "caught up into the air to meet Him" is at His coming - which is at the end of the Tribulation.

The Five Books Against Marcion

Book III, Chapter XXV


But there is now a gate provided by Christ, which admits and conducts to glory. Of this Amos says: "He buildeth His ascensions into heaven;"(14) certainly not for Himself alone, but for His people also, who will be with Him. "And Thou shall bind them about Thee," says he, "like the adornment of a bride."(15) Accordingly the Spirit, admiring such as soar up to the celestial realms by these ascensions, says, "They fly, as if they were kites; they fly as clouds, and as young doves, unto me"(16)--that is, simply like a dove.(17) For we shall, according to the apostle, be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord (even the Son of man, who shall come in the clouds, according to Daniel and so shall we ever be with the Lord,(19) so long as He remains both on the earth and in heaven, who, against such as are thankless for both one promise and the other, calls the elements themselves to witness: "Hear, O heaven, and give ear, O earth."


Again, we will be caught up in the clouds to meet Him...he does not come until the end of the Tribulation, therefore there is no "meeting" that can take place prior.

Book V, Chapter XV

Chapter XV


For my hostility is directed against" those who are for destroying the God of marriage, not those who follow after chastity. He says that those who "remain unto the coming of Christ," along with "the dead in Christ, shall rise first," being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."


"meet the Lord" - that's not pretribulation

Chapter XX


Therefore "one star differeth from another star in glory."(15) If, again, Christ in His advent from heaven "shall change the body of our humiliation, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body,"(16) it follows that this body of ours shall rise again, which is now in a state of humiliation in its sufferings and according to the law of mortality drops into the ground. But how shall it be changed, if it shall have no real existence? If, however, this is only said of those who shall be found in the flesh(17) at the advent of God, and who shall have to be changed,"(18) what shall they do who will rise first? They will have no substance from which to undergo a change. But he says (elsewhere), "We shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (in the air)."(19) Then, if we are to be caught up alone with them, surely we shall likewise be changed together with them.


"meet the Lord" - that's not pretribulation

Chapter XXIV


The character of these times learn, along with the Thessalonians. For we read: "How ye turned from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus."(10) And again: "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord God, Jesus Christ, at His coming?"(11) Likewise: "Before God, even our Father, at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, with the whole company of His saints."(12) He teaches them that they must "not sorrow concerning them that are asleep," and at the same time explains to them the times of the resurrection, saying, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus shall God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord, shall not prevent them that are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord."(13) What archangel's voice, (I wonder), what trump of God is now heard, except it be, forsooth, in the entertainments of the heretics? For, allowing that the word of the gospel may be called "the trump of God," since it was still calling men, yet they must at that time either be dead as to the body, that they may be able to rise again; and then how are they alive? Or else caught up into the clouds; and how then are they here? "Most miserable," no doubt, as the apostle declared them, are they "who in this life only" shall be found to have hope
14) they will have to be excluded while they are with premature haste seizing that which is promised after this life; erring concerning the truth, no less than Phygellus and Hermogenes.(15) Hence it is that the Holy Ghost, in His greatness, foreseeing clearly all such interpretations as these, suggests (to the apostle), in this very epistle of his to the Thessalonians, as follows: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, there is no necessity for my writing unto you. For ye yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, 'Peace,' and 'All things are safe,' then sudden destruction shall come upon them."(1) Again, in the second epistle he addresses them with even greater earnestness: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word," that is, the word of false prophets, "or by letter," that is, the letter of false apostles, "as if from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away," he means indeed of this present empire, "and that man of sin be revealed," that is to say, Antichrist, "the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or religion; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, affirming that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way."(2) What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."


This is probably the most important one from Tertullian's writings that can be quoted. Not only because it is written about the very thing we are discussing here - the false teaching the rapture will come early - but because it also is based on Paul's writings. So we have two voices in this paragraph railing against the false teachings of an early rapture. Please note - IT CANNOT OCCUR UNTIL AFTER THE ANTICHRIST HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. That places at after mid-tribulation point.

continued here...
blog.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 10-8-2006 by Valhall]



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 12:51 AM
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IT CANNOT OCCUR UNTIL AFTER THE ANTICHRIST HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. That places at after mid-tribulation point.


I believe that you are confusing the Second Coming with the rapture.

The rapture is the catching away.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by Sun Matrix


IT CANNOT OCCUR UNTIL AFTER THE ANTICHRIST HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. That places at after mid-tribulation point.


I believe that you are confusing the Second Coming with the rapture.

The rapture is the catching away.



Why don't you try reading what I wrote. What Christ said, and the early church fathers repeated, is that the "catching away" occurs at the time of the Second Coming.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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Hi Speaker, Queenannie (mentioned):


Speaker >> Too ridiculous to even respond.


Too what? Then why on God’s green earth are you totally ignoring all of my arguments from the twin posts here?

Speaker refuses to even reply >> www.abovetopsecret.com...

Are those points also too ridiculous to even reply?? We are waiting . . .


Speaker >> Tell, me, since I am in such "error," why is it that Mr. Lahaye has chosen to take a subject that was already well known about and make jhis millions?


What kind of question is that?? Your hypothesis is that “LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830”, which has nothing whatsoever to do with his impetus for writing any books. I asked for ‘your’ interpretation of what Paul ‘is’ teaching in saying,


“Behold, I tell you A MYSTERY; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first [1Cor. 15:52]. Then WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain will be CAUGHT UP [Harpazo #726 = Rapture] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord IN THE AIR, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.


Okay, Mr. SpeakerOfTruth, this is your opportunity once again to give us ‘your’ interpretation of what Paul ‘is’ teaching right here to the Corinthians and the Thessalonians. Since your theory is that early Christians had NO RAPTURE IDEOLOGY, until someone came along very recently, then how do you believe they interpreted Paul’s words above? Stop hiding from the topic you started and start giving us some answers that make sense!


Speaker >> You see, the so-called "church" are the deceivers in the "great" deception that the Lord will schew on the mind's of men.


Really? Where did you gather this tidbit of information?? Who is Paul deceiving in the verses above? Does this have something to do with the ‘mystery of iniquity’ (2Thes. 2:7) where the ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes. 2:11) forces men to “believe what is false”??? Those three crooked fingers are pointing straight back at you! Since you are the one ignoring arguments against your NONSENSE in this debate, then our readers should begin to realize YOU are the one sowing deceptive and even dangerous seeds in this thread. The fact is that early Christians faced the same factions (1Cor. 11:19) and an assortment of the same man-made interpretations we are looking at today. To conclude that NOBODY interpreted Paul’s teachings above correctly is throwing effort after complete and utter foolishness. To even include a mere man’s name and intimations to his interpretations (LaHaye) in your thesis is another example of foolishness, as if he fails to have the same right to be wrong as EVERYONE HERE.

The elemental precepts teaching our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) are derived from the WORD OF GOD and from the verses quoted to you in my posts without regard to what Lahaye or Darby or any other mortal man might have tucked up his shirtsleeve. The only thing that matters is what God Himself is saying through our Lord Jesus Christ (visions and revelations of the Lord = 2Cor. 12:1) through the Apostle Paul (chosen instrument of Mine = Acts 9:15-16) in these Epistles to the Corinthians and Thessalonians. If all you and Queeny can do is ask a myriad of questions, while completely AVOIDING what Scripture says, then you had no business started this thread in the first place.


Speaker >> The whole "rapture" ideology is part of it. I suggest you wake up. Thanks in advance.


This is yet another uninformed opinion from someone writing posts using NO SCRIPTURE at all. Do you really believe discrediting Darby, LaHaye and a thousand other men is going to make your “NO RAPTURE” Case? Haaaaaa! I disagree with them also and know for certain that both men are DEAD WRONG on the ‘timing’ of the Rapture, but that changes NOTHING about the truth of what God ‘is’ teaching through Paul in the passages above. Now it is your turn to ‘wake up’ and smell the coffee, because you are certainly going to give everyone here ‘your’ interpretations on what Paul ‘is’ teaching to the Corinthians and Thessalonians in the verses above. Otherwise your house of cards comes tumbling down in the presence of everyone reading this thread. Telling other members with outstanding arguments against your NONSENSE to ‘wake up’ is a poor substitute for continuing to bury your head in the sand on this topic. Your next “Dear Terral” Love Letter, that does NOT include your own thoughtful commentary on the verses above, says nothing other than “I accept bitter defeat in this debate” from someone hiding behind the name “SpeakerOfTruth.” Now THAT is certainly a contradiction of terms within your own name.

Put your head together with Queeny’s and you guys come up with something that makes sense. GL

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


IT CANNOT OCCUR UNTIL AFTER THE ANTICHRIST HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. That places at after mid-tribulation point.


I believe that you are confusing the Second Coming with the rapture.

The rapture is the catching away.



Why don't you try reading what I wrote. What Christ said, and the early church fathers repeated, is that the "catching away" occurs at the time of the Second Coming.


I read what was posted above. I could have missed the part where Christ repeated the catching away occurs at the second coming. Could you point out these verses so I could examine them?

There will be a gathering prior to the second coming but it has nothing to do with the rapture.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 08:26 AM
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Terral:

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law ALSO says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I WRITE TO YOU are the LORD’S COMMANDMENT. But if ANYONE [that includes YOU] does not recognize this, he [or she in this case] is NOT recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:34-38.


You are not permitted to order fellow members of the board to keep silent on theological matters. This is a discussion board, everyone is entitled to speak up, regardless of anything written in some old book.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 10:26 AM
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first off;


darkelf
Haha, don't shoot the messenger. I'm only the piano player.


i can appreciate that, but excuse if i made it sound like i was trying to be harsh or whatever.
the facts you presented are noteworthy,
and that is part of this rapture theology i mean to address.

Hey, keep tickling those ivories




+++


Working from the idea that the now popular 'Rapture' theology
is a newer twist on the events described in scripture,
we'll have to delve into just why the word 'rapture' was used in the 1830
birth of an idea (?maybe even cult?) (i won't call it a deception, Yet)

darkelf cited that the Vulgate used the latin term/word raeptius
or in another form raptus; which meant 'carry off' which was an equal
meaning with the Greek Harpazo used in Paul's scripture & the 'caught up'
of 1 Thess 4:17.

i'm OK, with that so far...

But, then when certain people, ? or forces, or principalities?, wanted to create
a really embellished twist on the 'carry off' explaination,
which had no previous need before that time to be expounded upon,
'They' went ahead and inserted the extra meaningful word "Rapture" as a word meant to being clearer meaning to the mystery of 'changed' & 'caught up'

because rapture also meant;
#1. a state of being, transported by a lofty emotion ~ ecstasy
#2. an expression of ecstatic feeling

and then a later addition to the meaning & definition
#3. the transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven
in my viewpoint, meaning #3 was added because of the popular misconception
that was created in the church minded psyche by the 'Rapture' theory/theology to begin with !

There may be a mental linkage or connection made because of the letter sequences of the words raptus & rapture.
But there is miles of difference in the meanings, one encompases; seize, snatch up, carry off, in the physical sense
the other word describes a lofty or heady, dizzying 'feeling', an emotional experience, not unlike when L-dopamine is released by the brain inducing a ecstatic episode

If one goes to the 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, which terral is fond of presenting.
You'll see the scriptural event described has nothing to do with being transported,
which is in the explaination of Rapture, nor is anyone tele-ported (as you'd find in the movie titled 'The Fly' or even seen on Star Trek in the transporter room)
the scriptual event isn't an emotional or ecstatic experience either.

The event(linked above) involves some who are alive, being 'changed', their mortal/terminal flesh is 'changed' by some super-natural miracle/mystery into a type of immortality, or becoming a body which scripture says, is incorruptable.
The mystery is not the man made controversy of "Rapture"

keep in mind; 2 Thess 2:3.... ""Let no man deceive you by any means;
for that day shall not come (i.e. the day of Christ) there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition...""

there's probably many deceptions that may lead to that 'falling away first'
and the good-feeling, ecstatic state of "Rapture" may indeed be one of those!?

PS- i do intend to visit the Valhall blog; the_false_teaching_of_a_pretri........



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 10:37 AM
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Hi Nygdan:


Nygdan >> You are not permitted to order fellow members of the board to keep silent on theological matters. This is a discussion board, everyone is entitled to speak up, regardless of anything written in some old book.


Thank you for making this point crystal clear. I understand every ATS member has every right to type out anything they wish on any of these threads. My intention was to point out "the error AboveReproach is making” while highlighting that “against the backdrop of her apparent hostilities, diversionary tactics and total lack of knowledge on this topic:”. The actual remarks you quoted were from ‘some old book’ and statements authored by the Apostle Paul. My following remarks include the statements:


Terral’s Words >> If the ladies here want to raise their voices in the assembly and deliberate the essentials of these topics like men, then they are still required to recognize that what Paul writes “to you” is the “Lord’s Commandment!” Period! If you do not care to recognize this, then you are not even recognized as members of the called out assembly! . . .”


The point being that Paul’s words to the church still represent Christ’s Words FROM HEAVEN (2Cor. 12:1). Of course the ladies have the right as ATS members to engage anyone in meaningful debate. The correct ‘come back’ is there is no such thing as any male or female “IN” Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28). I was assisting our third party judges to understand my impetus for adhering to Paul’s words over what Christ taught Israel only (Matt. 15:24) while on this earth.

However, in light of your statements and researching my own quotes, I also feel that my words appear too harsh and insensitive. Sometimes I get overly emotional and carried away by the heated exchange in the debate. My bad; and my apologies to those offended. I appreciate you coming behind and helping me to see my error, so that I can write with increased effectiveness in the future.

Thank you again and God bless you,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by Terral

“Behold, I tell you A MYSTERY; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first [1Cor. 15:52]. Then WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain will be CAUGHT UP [Harpazo #726 = Rapture] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord IN THE AIR, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.


Okay, Mr. SpeakerOfTruth, this is your opportunity once again to give us ‘your’ interpretation of what Paul ‘is’ teaching right here to the Corinthians and the Thessalonians. Since your theory is that early Christians had NO RAPTURE IDEOLOGY, until someone came along very recently, then how do you believe they interpreted Paul’s words above? Stop hiding from the topic you started and start giving us some answers that make sense!


Okay,I'll bite. The first thing that stands out about the scripture is this


“Behold, I tell you A MYSTERY; we will not all sleep,


Notice the word Mystery. I suggest,Terral, that you notice it well. The "church" has no secret knowledge, nor do they hold any answer to the mystery that the scripture is referring to. The scripture is speaking to those spiritual seekers who are truly awake to what is going on,not to the "church" as it exists in today's world.

As Jesus taught, very few would truly understand the teachings of his word. Do you honestly think that the "church" has a monopoly on the truth about the word of Christ? I certainly do not.

The mystery and the being caught up that Paul is referring to certainly does not pertain to a literal "rapture" of the "church". It is a reference to God's people being displaced from the chaos of the world. While the TRUE believers are out in the wilderness for three and a half years of the anti-Christ's reign, food and supplies shall be granted to God's people in hiding. This is the true "rapture" of God's people,not some out of the world escapism that many "churches" preach today.

When you ask for an explanation, you get one. I have tried to abstain from giving you one because it is really so obvious that only someone who is brainwashed by the manipulators would not see it.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Terral
What kind of question is that?? Your hypothesis is that “LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830”


Just to settle the argument, the statement is correct.

The early Christian church had no such theological position.

They were "reform Jews" (at first) and Judaism (circa 30 AD) had no "rapture" theology (the interpretation that the Old Testament supports rapture theology is not correct -- remember, these were originally Jewish books and the Jews didn't believe in an afterlife OR in a rapture.)

When the Christians became organized, there was no organized belief in a rapture (they were all Catholic. They believed in an afterlife and that people could be prayed out of hell or out of limbo.)

When the Council of Nicea determined what books would be in the Bible, Revelation was a real sticking point. Many didn't want it in there.

Christianity was Catholic until Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation (so the La Haye theology was never a part of church history until thTat point.)

Early Protestants were more like Lutherans (basically the same Catholic theology and ceremonies with some small theological differences.) Rapture was not one of those differences -- Martin Luther, who founded Protestantism, argued that Revelation had no place in the Protestant Bible. He also threw other books out of the Bible (the apocrypha.)

The word, "rapture", is old, but the theological meaning as "period of tribulation/antichrist/people vanishing (in whichever order you prefer)" is a fairly new one that started within the last 200 years, after the rise of Protestantism.





 
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