Is the Pope right for speaking up about Islam as no one else has...

If the Pope blames Islam for it's radicals then I have to fault him for raped altarboys and more-so his cover-up of it. Islam of all the religions I have studied, in it's purist sense is the most tolerant of other's beliefs. I have several Muslim friends and my beliefs are somewhat extreme. They are still my friends. They don't try to kill me for not being a Muslim. The religion of Islam is not responsible for the actions of a few who claim to act in it's name any more than Christianity is responsible for wackos who murder doctors for performing abortions.

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Read a little further in the Surah down to verse 29.

Surah - 9:29 "Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior."

Incorrect. The verse you posted is not translated correctly. I would like to see where you read it from and also who the translated author of the verse is. The real English translation states:

Surrah 9.29 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

and in Arabic:

Surrah 9:29 "Qatiloo allatheena layu/minoona biAllahi wala bialyawmial-akhiri wala yuharrimoona ma harramaAllahu warasooluhu wala yadeenoona deena alhaqqimina allatheena ootoo alkitaba hattayuAAtoo aljizyata AAan yadin wahum saghiroona."

The word used in the surrah for "fight" is "qatiloo." This verse was given to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel when neighboring tribes broke their peace treaty and declared war on him and the other Muslims. When the verse says to "fight those who believe not in God", it is refering to the pagans who were attacking Muslims, and when the verse says those who do not "acknowledge the religion of Truth," it denotes "acknowledge" as to mean "allow worship of". The second part of the verse, about the Jizya tax, I covered in another topic, where I said: "Since Muslims paid Zakaat (Charity), non Muslims were not required to pay it. Instead the jizya was only for non-Muslim men who were capable of enlisting in the Army, but chose not to. With the jizya, the men were protected by the Muslims armies in the lands and were not required to fight along side the Muslims. The jizya was only a protection tax, and only given to able bodied men who were capable of fighting in the army, but chose to pay for protection."

Even in verse 11 it states if they repent they are your brethren.

Repent for their sins, yes. It's a basic fundamental teaching of both Christianity and Judaism to ask God for forgiveness commiting any sins. I think you were viewing it as "ask forgiveness for not being Muslim," which would not be correct.

If you read the book The Propeht’s Biography: vol 2 by Ibn Hisham you will see an interesting tale of the town of Bani Quayza.

The tribe of Sa'd ibn Mu'adh, was a Jewish tribe that was living in Medina with Muhammad and his followers. Both tribes had signed a peace treaty with one another known as the "Constitution of Medina." The tribe of Banu Qurayza betrayed Muhammad and the peace treaty twice. The first time, the Banu Qurayza tribe broke the treaty and sided with the Banu Al Nadir tribe to kill Muhammad. They failed to kill him, but Muhammad still had mercy on the Banu Qurayza, and allowed them to come back to Medina and have the peace treaty once again. The Banu Qurayza then betrayed the peace treaty a second time by joining with Abu Sufyan and the Meccan armies to kill the Muslims and Muhammad. This once again was foiled, when Abu Sufyan had been defeated in the battle of Khandaq. Muhammad was once again asked by the leaders of the Banu Qurayza tribe for mercy and Muhammad allowed them to once again enter Medina. Muhammad asked them to go a judge for the final decision on whether they will be able to stay for betraying the peace treaty a second time. The Judge named Sa'd Ibn Mu'adh, declared for there to be a peace treaty once again. Sa'd Ibn Mu'adh was then struck with an arrow from a member of the Banu Qurayza tribe. Sa'd Ibn Mu'adh then decided that the Banu Qurayza tribe cannot be trusted so he ordered that all those who fought against Muhammad in the battle against Abu Sufyan to be executed. The boys who reached puberty were executed too because they had also fought in the Banu Qurayza army. The execution was never for any males under the puberty age.

Love and equality right? I can't remember the story of Jesus Lopping peoples heads off I must have missed that one in Sunday School. Islam was born out of violence and does have many high points but its low points are off the deep end.

I will not speak ill of Jesus. Jesus is a prophet of Islam as well; we recognize him as one of the prophets of our faith. He lived in a different time where he didn't have to worry about others amassing armies to kill his followers and take over their homes. Previous prophets of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, who lived before him did. In those cases, God instructed them to also kill those who attacked them, the same God Jesus worships. In Muhammad's time, he and his followers were expelled from their land and were plotted to be killed everywhere they went. They lost their homes, and when armies were created to kill them all, they defended. Never did Muhammad or the Muslims start the attack. Would you rather he should have allowed his followers to die, rather than defend themselves?

IMHO, I think these Muslims that are throwing such a stink about this are the same ones offended by Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Even if they aren't, I think IMHO that Muslims are actively LOOKING for stuff to be offended by.
They don't even raise an eyebrow when something is spoken or depicted negative about Christianity or Judaism, and there is SO much more of that. God forbid anyone even think negatively about Muslim beliefs or practices, let alone quote something said about them MANY years ago!
Hey, Christians and Jews! Lets wake up! Anytime a Muslim says anything negative or slightly critical of our belief system, lets take to the streets in protest! Maybe we should firebomb a Mosque just like I heard they did in Lebanon or wherever as "protest" to the Pope's remarks (WHICH WEREN'T EVEN HIS!). (This just now came over the news about churches being firebombed).
Religion of peace...... IMHO, I think the pope's quoting is VERY relevant to what we are seeing today. The radical Muslims' answer to everything is violence! All over the news is Iranian president this, Iranian president said that.....but, NOTHING. No condemnation by Christian groups, no Mosque bombings, no violent street protests. Especially pertaining to the peaceful Muslims in America, NEVER a condemnation of Iranian president's remarks by the various Muslim groups. If they could get away with it without losing what BETTER life they have in the west, I'm sure they'd be bombing churches here. (IMHO) I think the fact that they are not enough in number yet has something to do with it too.
Quit being cry-babies! When it comes down to it, you don't have to live in the West! Australia is the first to basically tell Muslims ---if you don't like living here, MOVE! The rest of the West should follow suit.

Its no wonder the West is so afraid of Muslims getting nukes. It would be like handing a grenade to an infant. The first temper-tantrum...............BOOM!

Right or wrong will always be the opinion of every person so thats not applicable really in discussing his statements. We should instead focus on whether or not it is appropriate for a religious leader such as himself to instigate knowingly (theres no way he didnt anticipate such response) such controversy when we live in times that need influential people to be preaching for peace.

Heres the main problem. PROTESTANT CHRISTIANS should NOT HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE for what the POPE says and does. He is not the leader of ALL CHRISTIANS....For whatever reason most people dont realize this.

The declarations from the pope are more dangerous than the cartoons, because they come from the most important Christian authority in the world — the cartoons just came from an artist," said Diaa Rashwan, an analyst in Cairo, Egypt, who studies Islamic militancy.

Who and why do they believe this christains are not catholics. Two different religions. No, his comments just made this war progress 100 fold. Just wait you will see.

news.yahoo.com...

[edit on 16-9-2006 by Shar]

[edit on 16-9-2006 by Shar]

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
IF you read the article, it clearly states that he quoted a Pontiff from a long time ago. Although I have to agree with the Pontiff of the old days; what has Mohammad brought except violence and evil?

Mohammad brought much more than you are likely to ever bother to learn.
The Pope is being a complete jerk for quoting such untrue, and insulting statements in his speech. He has totally lost my respect, and I think all he is doing is trying to encourage blind hatred and ignorant prejudice. It is my view that there is nothing possibly good that could ever come from such a blatantly antagonistic action. Why not talk about all the charity work that is done by the Muslim aid organizations? Or about the hundreds of millions of peaceful law abiding Muslims in the world? Wouldn't that be more helpful?
I have to totally disagree with the Pontiff then and now, and I mean totally.
When people have never read the Qu'ran, and just swallow all the divisive rhetoric and lies that the leaders feed them, I wonder about our future. I see little chance of us ever getting a grasp of the concept of trying to find common ground. You see violence and evil, I see the rest of the picture, which is the vast majority of the Muslim world. They are not at all like you imagine. Why don't you go to a mosque, meet some Muslims, read the Qu'ran for pete's sake. Maybe when you read where it says, 'Allah loveth not aggressors.', or where it says men and women are equals in every way.... and remember this was 1300 years before Christians figured out women were equals...
Maybe then..
Nah.

The Pope has nothing to apologise for.

and neither have I if I say...

The Prophet Mohammed was a nutter.

I really do wish Muslims would lighten up and not take their "religion" so seriously

Originally posted by Valhall
1. He didn't say "descend". He said ascend.

NO Valhall .. his first post said descend. It was very clear. He didn't get the Creed right. Look at page 4. Grady caught it also.

His next post he stated he wanted the church and the KofC to be militant and go after the muslims. That's beyond silly. The KofC is just a fraternal organization that holds spaghetti suppers and helps in Catholic schools, etc.

I still don't believe him.

What, did you get so utterly confused ...

Nope. YOU are confused. You didn't bother to read the whole thread or you would have seen that he said descend first. But it's more fun to jump on the poor confused Catholics who 'pathetically cling' to the crucifix, than to read everything he posted, isn't it?

by the Marion doctrine and get all caught up in the fake story of HER ascension

Wrong again. It's ASSUMPTION. Not ascension. Two totally different things. And even with the ASSUMPTION ... it would be going up to heaven (by God's power, not her own), not 'decending' down to it.

I think the answer is yes

Then you are completely wrong.

There is no confusion. He got the creed wrong. He got the entire purpose for the KofC wrong - something that he supposedly belongs to.



[edit on 9/16/2006 by FlyersFan]

The Pope was facing angry demands for an apology after a speech in which he quoted a medieval ruler who said Mohammed's innovations were "evil and inhuman", The Guardian says.


The Pope is the at the top of christian pyramid much like Shia Muslims who have a spiritual leader. Do you see any Shia leader saying such irresponsible things against Christianity or Jesus.

The Pope has disgraced himself. He wanted to be in the limelight, to be famous after Pope John Paul. This is the sleaziest way of gaining some attention. "He has quoted a medieval ruler regarding Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)" wihtout any authentic proof, this is no gospel, no bible, hes quoting a med-evil rulers remarks just to put his share in the islam bashing movement.

I think this is just furthering the movement which had seen the caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the Van Gough Movie
"Submission", and now the Pope who had so little knowledge that he had to rely on a Med-evil ruler and his ignorant shabby analysis.

There are some who would say muslims must stop over-reacting, to all such naive minds...don't you see indians over-reacting when their lord's impression is printed on designer shoes; don't you see jews over-reacting to a restaurant with hitlers name and a swastika (in india), don't you see Christians over-reacting to Madonna's use of the crucifix, the Davinchi code etc...The reason being that all such are not projected with aaahhhhs and ooooohs of spicy media but rather downplayed as humble and cultured display if feelings. Get out of your shell and smell the air!

Popes should not be left behind, when everyone else is making profit out of islam bashing. That is all there is to it.

I would argue that the Pope doesn't speak out enough about some aspects of Islam. Look at the human rights abuses in Iran, the persecution of Christians in Saudi Arabia, etc.

Originally posted by NettieMoore

I would argue that the Pope doesn't speak out enough about some aspects of Islam. Look at the human rights abuses in Iran, the persecution of Christians in Saudi Arabia, etc.

So there's still Christians LIVING in Saudi Arabia? These Islamic bastards haven't gotten things down good yet, have they? If you're going to get rid of a rival religion you have to kill all of them. Here, I'll send them this as a type of Persecution for Dummies reference.

Columbus and the Catholic Crusades

Killing was indiscriminate, and victory was often celebrated as "the justification of all Christianity and the humiliation of all paganism." Indeed, even some clerics participated in the killing, and new militant monastic orders were founded to participate in the Crusades. Those infidels who were not crucified or mutilated or disemboweled or hanged were often enslaved, tortured, and raped, and their possessions were, of course, stolen from them. Concerning the capture of Jerusalem in 1099, for example, Raymond of Agiles reported that "piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city... it was a just and splendid judgment of God, that this place should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers, when it had suffered so long from their blasphemies."

The Inquisitions often accomplished at home what the Crusades ultimately failed to accomplish abroad: the destruction of pagans heretics, the acquisition of wealth and property for pope and king, and the neutralization and elimination of political enemies. The Inquisitions (one of which was actually declared as a Crusade by Pope Innocent in 1207-1208) were church sanctioned Holy Wars against the Cathari, Albigensians, Waldesians, Moors, Jews, liberal theologians, homosexuals, witches and heretics who threatened the political and economic power of pope and king.

When he found that gold was scarce in the islands, Columbus engaged in a slave raid which captured fifteen hundred Arawak men, women, and children, five hundred of whom were sent back to Spain to be sold at auction. En route, 200 died.

When the Arawaks organized an army of resistance, they were burned at the stake, hanged, and tortured in Inquisitorial fashion. Mass suicides began among the Arawaks and they killed their own infants rather than let them grow up to face the Spaniards.

A major source of information on the violence and exploitation of the Columbian-inspired exploitation of the indigenous people - and a powerful source of opposition to it - is the work of Dominican priest Bartolome de Las Casas. Perhaps his most brilliant and persuasive work is In Defense of the Indians. Las Casas, a contemporary of Columbus in the "New World," and other missionaries, spoke vigorously against the numerous crimes which were committed against the "Indians" in the name of God, and the priest makes a powerful case that de facto "genocide" did indeed occur very early on after the Columbian invasion.

It's funny how this thread keeps going back to a battle between the more evil, Christianity or Islam. I really think that we're well into the final Crusade.

It's about time they made a statement. Now maybe something can be done about the terrorists without the religious politicians feeling guilty about it.

Okay, here's one for you to get it back (I assume) to where you want it.

While the Pope apparently can be an amazingly nauseating hypocrite and call another religion the bringer of nothing but evil and violence, while at the same time seeming to be oblivious to the fact his robe has the blood of millions of persecuted victims soaking it, it is my personal opinion that being "offended" is a personal choice and resides ENTIRELY in the person or group that chooses to be so.

So while I hold the Pope in contempt - I'd like to say to the enraged Muslims filling the streets and acting like some one just stabbed their mother in front of them...

GET THE HELL OVER IT.

I'm pretty sick of everything from cartoons to Papal speeches being treated as something so hideous it mandates violence and hyperbole from the ignorant members of the Muslim community who apparently have nothing more important to do but sit in front of their Imams or TVs (whichever one they get the skinny from) waiting with bated breath for the next reason to burn a flag or blow up a building. And I do mean that, just as much as I mean it for the ignorant Christians who would commit violence against abortion clinics.

[edit on 9-16-2006 by Valhall]

Ouch a lot of hate in this thread.

Its interesting that a figure like the pope would make this quote. As innocent as he claimed it was. It just goes to show the real hatred in peoples heart in the name of religion. I'm sure god is proud of us all right now. Bickering over which phrophet is right while ignoring the path that they laid for us. The pope of all people should know that no gain comes from putting another person or religion down, even if the words are true. Humility goes a long way.
When will people realize that god has no religion.
Stop the madness!!

[edit on 16-9-2006 by xEphon]

To me its the pot calling the kettle black, remimber what the church has done in history. Christianity has brougt forth more wars and violence than any other religion. Plus the fact that true Islam is a very peaceful religion. It's the extreme Islamists that are the problem, and they dont know the true meanining of jihad. Think i am joking look it up. In jihad no innocent people are to be harmed, even more not even a tree should be hurt. Its a very personal thing jihad.
More cultures have been wiped out in the name of christianity than any other religion in the world.

On a final note, let he who be without sin cast the first stone.

[edit on 16-9-2006 by oubliette]

I've been watching the news, reading on the net and listening to the radio the world's response to the Pope's comments. A lot of people are saying that his words will breed more terrorists. Doesn't this say something about the state of Islam today? When someone says something negative about Christians or Jews (which happens on a daily basis in the Middle East), you don't hear about fears of creating Christian or Jewish suicide bombers! So what does this say about Islam today?

I happen to believe that the Pope didn't say anything wrong. I find the world's reaction, and the Islamic reaction in particular, to be rediculous. A lot of people are talking about and predicting WWIII, with most pitting the US vs. radical Islam and countries like Iran, Syria, and even North Korea and Venezuela. But I see a different epic battle taking place. And it's one where the good guys are losing, and they're not doing anything to win. The results of this battle will shape the world for centuries, or more, to come. Who is this battle between, you say?

Moderate Islamists vs. Radical Islamofascists/Terrorists

And the latter group is winning, while the former seems to be laying down like a doormat. Moderate Islamists aren't out there in the trenches fighting as hard as the terrorists are for the hearts and minds of their people. They've allowed these radicals to hijack their religion and turn its children into hate mongers and suicide bombers. If this continues, and the moderates take the dive, then we will see the much-anticipated WWIII. And if that's the case, may God help us all.

I hardly think that a few comments made by The Pope are a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I think the important overriding story that we need to recognize here is the rediculousness of the Muslim reaction to his comments. Rioting, firebombing several churches (including ones which aren't even under the control or sanction of the Vatican), angry crowds demanding the Pope be hanged, etc., etc. Would there ever be a reaction like this from Christians or Jews, if for example a major Islamic leader made similar comments regarding Christianity or Judiasm? Of course not!

This whole situation is yet another example of Muslim extremists showing how rediculous and unreasonable they are. I really hope that anyone with any sense can see this, especially those moderate Muslims who need to take action.

news.bbc.co.uk...

he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God," he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats."

If you read what the Pope said after he quoted the 14th century emporer, it explains what he was trying to say. If Muslims become violent becuase of this, it only confirms what the emporer said in the first place.

Originally posted by ARNOMANNN
First of all, I just want to start by saying the following:
......
He ascended into Heaven

The third day He arose again from the dead.
......

Sorry to correct you hear, but the line is actually

HE DESCENDED UNTO THE DEAD
ON THE THIRD DAY, HE ROSE AGAIN

....Why do muslims have such thin skin? Oh no! The Pope spoke out against Islam! Now we're crying! I'm not a religious person, but I'm tired of the Muslims bitching every time someone says something about them. Someone draws a cartoon, so they need to kill everyone involved. I mean, enough is enough.

Sure, the crusades happened and a lot of people died. But guess what? That ended how many centuries ago? They've moved on and have learned from most of their mistakes. Why can't the muslims do the same?