Is the Pope right for speaking up about Islam as no one else has...

Originally posted by ARNOMANNN
First of all, i just want to start by saying the following:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into Heaven

ARNOMANNN, please don't take this the wrong way. I have nothing against u as a person, but just want to single u out as an example (don't look to deply into this. I have nothing against sincre Christiens, or any sincre religious people for that matter):

I believe in no God, but am willing to change my beliefs should I experience anything that challenges my current belief set. So currently, I am currently rejecting the Christien idea of God, so to speak. In ur eyes, do u accept my belief as being equally valid as urs, or do u percieve me to be mistaken/misguided/wrong/etc?

First of all, I just want to start by saying the following:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He ascended into Heaven

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

It's about time the catholic church took a proactive position against the islamo-fascist movent-I mean Islam in it's true form.I stand behind the Pope in what he said.He has a right to say what he did.Those muslim's who were offended should look at why they feel the way they do-maybe deep down they know what the pope is saying to be true.I think it's time christians as a whole should rally against the muslim threat.I am proud to call myself a catholic.I am also a knight of columbus.I am hoping one day organisations such as these take a more miltant stance against some of these so-called charitable organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah.They (islamic terrorist's) need to know that there are christians who feel deeply about their religion just as they do-and are ready to defend it as well!!!!

my bad about the goofup on the posts-computer glitch

Originally posted by behindthescenes
If I could brew and distill the message of Muhammad and the message of Jesus the Christ, it would be thus:

Jesus: Worry about your own salvation, but preach the message to others.

Muhammad: Go out and convert the infidel, either through their own willingness or by your sword.


There.....

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." -Luke 14:26

"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." -Matthew 10:21

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Matthew 10:34

Jesus wasn't as peaceful and loving as you might think.

Originally posted by ARNOMANNN
.I am proud to call myself a catholic.I am also a knight of columbus.I am hoping one day organisations such as these take a more miltant stance against ..

I don't believe you.

A Catholic knows that Christ didn't descend into heaven.

A REAL Knight of Columbus knows that it is a fraternal organization and has nothing
to do with 'militant stances' etc...

I simply don't believe you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan


I don't believe you.

A Catholic knows that Christ didn't descend into heaven.

Well, no wonder the Muslims haven't been able to catch up with the religiously-intolerant-induced murders of the Catholic church. You can't even agree amongst yourselves.

1. He didn't say "descend". He said ascend.
2. What the heck do you mean a Catholic knows Christ didn't ascend into heaven? What, did you get so utterly confused by the Marion doctrine and get all caught up in the fake story of HER ascension to the point you have completely forgotten that CHRIST'S ascension was of UTMOST importance to the Christian faith? I think the answer is yes - because just like the pathetic crucifix you guys cling to you - you have completely forgotten you are beholding to a RISEN saviour.

[edit on 9-15-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by behindthescenes
If I could brew and distill the message of Muhammad and the message of Jesus the Christ, it would be thus:

Jesus: Worry about your own salvation, but preach the message to others.

Muhammad: Go out and convert the infidel, either through their own willingness or by your sword.

Care to cite your "messages"?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Those are all 900-1000 years ago. Got anything that big that is more recent?

You mean aside from the LRA, National Liberation Front of Tripura, and the wars that occured in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics?

[edit on 15-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by rustiswordz
"And fight not with them at the Sacred
Mosque until they fight with you in it; slay
them. Such is the recompense of the
disbelievers.
192 But if they desist, then surely
Allåh is Forgiving, Merciful.a
193 And fight them until there is no
persecution, and religion is only for
Allåh.a But if they desist, then there
should be no hostility except against
the oppressors."

so im a disbeliver, i am to be slayed then eh?

I believe that your confusion in your comments are due to the lack of historical study. When the Quran refers to "they" in the passage you quoted, it is refering to the pagans who tried to kill the Muslims. Notice it says to only fight if they fight first, and to have peace when they ask for peace.

Originally posted by ThinksYouAreAnIdiot
Islam is at its core, diametrically opposed to christianity.

If by the "core" of Islam, you are refering to the Quran, then why is that the Quran teaches equality with Christians and Jews?

Surah - 9:11 "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then they are your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge."

Surah - "Al Baqarah" 2:62 "Those who believe, Jews, Nazarenes and Sabaeans - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear nor are they saddened."

ARNOMANN,

As I understand the Apostles Creed, it goes: was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.

the First Glorious Mystery of the Rosary tells us:

2. His soul descends into the realm of the dead to announce to the Just the tidings of their redemption.

Val,

The crucifix is a reminder that Jesus died human death, horribly, on the cross, taking all of our sins for all time on His sinless Self, that we might have eternal life through Him. And you call it pathetic. He didn't save us all by rising into Heaven or coming down off the cross dead in human form, that's for sure.

The crucifix means a lot more to me than a bare cross that looks more like a syringe than anything else. The crucifix reminds us of what Christ went through to bring about our salvation as a Risen Savior.

Blood is required for the remission of sin.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by Icarus Rising]

It's a matter of preference - until signs of total disregard for what is important start showing through.

I agree. This apocalyptic moment brought on by the ill timed and questionably delivered comments of the Pope has me riled. I'm not defending what he said, or the Catholic Church, btw.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by Icarus Rising]

This is my position, as based on the words of the Christ, and how he lived (and died (and rose)):

If one professes to be a Christian, thereby stating they have faith in God and submit to His Will, there is no conceivable way a Christian (or an organization claiming to be Christian) could mandate violence against another group (whether religious or secular) due to some human fear of being persecuted or killed in some human-defined concept the other group will do so because of differences. Because Christ taught, through his words, deeds, life, death and resurrection, that if one has faith in the Will of God, in the end God's will WILL be done, and all WILL be right (according to His will) - no matter what these earthly bodies we have must go through to get there.

The Holy Wars of the Catholic Crusades were atheistic to faith in God's will, and any move now based on fear of the "growing tide of Islam" will be atheistic to faith in God's will....and therefore cannot be legitimately claimed as a Christian act or movement. It will only be a cowardly, doubter's act, with no connection to God or Christ.

I agree again, wholeheartedly. Faith begins with thoughtforms. No true Christian who has complete faith in Christ as Savior would contemplate or advocate violence as a solution to any conflict.

Ephesians 6:14-18 sums it up nicely

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

As Christians, our weapons are spiritual in nature; prayer and the Word.

Why? Just look at my current sig.

It's a matter of preference - until signs of total disregard for what is important start showing through.

Just to clear up, so dont jump on me, man this thread is hot!

Signs you mean as in crucifixes, crosses, and what ever Muslims use should be disregarded from all religions yes?

Also while they are there, they could get rid of all the Preists, Ministers, Clerics into the bargain. Let people who have faith in god decide what way they want to follow.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by spencerjohnstone]

Onward christian soldiers.
^I can hear it now.
How long before this "War on Terror" becomes a new "Crusade" or "Holy War" if you will?

The timing seems off to me,not that theres really ever a good time to say such things.But with the world in its current touchy state,this was ill timed.

Originally posted by DJMessiah

If by the "core" of Islam, you are refering to the Quran, then why is that the Quran teaches equality with Christians and Jews?

Surah - 9:11 "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then they are your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge."

Surah - "Al Baqarah" 2:62 "Those who believe, Jews, Nazarenes and Sabaeans - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear nor are they saddened."

Read a little further in the Surah down to verse 29.

Surah - 9:29 "Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior."

Even in verse 11 it states if they repent they are your brethren.

If you read the book The Propeht’s Biography: vol 2 by Ibn Hisham you will see an interesting tale of the town of Bani Quayza. This town was Jewish and after the Battle of the Trenches, Muhammad accused the town of siding with his enemies. The town was under siege for 25 days and after that period of time the town asked for surrender, Muhammad refused. Instead he appointed an anti-Quayza to decide a punishment. The punishment was all males be beheaded and children and females sold into slavery. The land was to be divided up amongst muslims. Here is an account of the incidence.

Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off.

Love and equality right? I can't remember the story of Jesus Lopping peoples heads off I must have missed that one in Sunday School. Islam was born out of violence and does have many high points but its low points are off the deep end.



Wikipedia.org


[edit on 15-9-2006 by BlackJackal]

As we've gone over before, if you want to start a comparison between Christian, Muslim attrocities we can go on all day, but since Christianity has 500 years and an few empires on Islam, you're likely to see Christianity lose it.

The fact is that when it comes down to it, you can't judge and individual based on the actions of a few in their religion.

But, lets say, for the sake of arguement, that all Muslims were evil. What would you have them do? Would it be okay to have them renounce their faith? Should they be moved to camps? As I asked before, what is the Final Solution?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
But, lets say, for the sake of arguement, that all Muslims were evil. What would you have them do? Would it be okay to have them renounce their faith? Should they be moved to camps? As I asked before, what is the Final Solution?

All Muslims are not evil as I have stated several times previously. I agree that if we were to discuss attrocities we would be here all day. However, a solution to the problem is quite difficult since what you have is a large number of peoples indoctrinated with the belief that everyone else is an infidel. It's almost impossible to kill an ideology, you can kill people or topple governments but you can't kill a mindset. As such, I don't know of any way to stop it. I wish I did but I don't. I don't think anyone does. However, everyone should be aware of the danger.

The pot is calling the kettle black, only it's a crack-pot doing so when you look at history. Speaking of "swords"...

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Matthew 10:34

"...but a sword"

So you have a head of one warlike religion criticizing the teachings of another competing warlike religion's prophet from the 6th century, while the founder of his own religion said basically the same thing 500 years earlier?!

Apologist, revisionist interpretations of who said what will not ease tensions between the two big ones. Neither will pointing out the bloody past of someone else's religion while ignoring the wrongdoings of one's own. It's too bad what with all the theocrazies and faith-based governments in the world, they can't seem to get more forward-thinking people in charge to control the masses instead of these high school history club alumni who only seem to excel at raising the global insanity quotient.