Is the Pope right for speaking up about Islam as no one else has...

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Originally posted by krossfyter
you can pick on christianity but you cant pick on islam?

pfft.

you can pick on whoever you want, but why would you want to? does it help? The pope made very insulting statements, which cant help. Is he allowed to? Yes. Should he? Not a chance. What a horrid example. Jesus is turning in his grave.
Love thine enemy. Turn the other cheek.
How about those ideals?
We have freedom of speech, say whatever. But why say things that you know will only hurt, anger, and alienate people. Love alone can dispell hate. Pope Benedict showed more hate than love in his choice of material.

you missed the point of my post. as well... with all due respect... Jesus is not buried anywhere.

he rose from the grave. its in the history books... well according to my belief system.

lol

Didnt Iran show in its country, cartoons of the Halocaust?

Was there world wide anger and demonstrations to this?

From, Jewish, Christian religions?

Wait I found it.

More than 200 Holocaust cartoons from around the world are on display at a museum in the Iranian capital, Tehran.

The Iran Cartoon Organisation and Hamshahri newspaper are putting on the exhibition.

Organiser Masoud Shojai said: "You see they allow the Prophet to be insulted. But when we talk about the Holocaust, they consider it so holy that they punish people for questioning it."

News Source


And before anyone says. It was just a Jewish thing. May I remind you that christians died during the Holocaust as well.

So I would have to ask, What is the difference between the insults?

Did Iran have the right to show those pictures?
[edit on 16-9-2006 by spencerjohnstone]

[edit on 16-9-2006 by spencerjohnstone]

[edit on 16-9-2006 by spencerjohnstone]

Originally posted by krossfyter
you missed the point of my post. as well... with all due respect... Jesus is not buried anywhere.
he rose from the grave. its in the history books... well according to my belief system.
lol

I do want to understand you, and I did find your post a little too vague to get a solid read on it. Did you mean that you see people accepting Christian bashing and not Muslim bashing? If so, I see far too much of both. But, I understand why it can develop into such a sorry state of affairs. If people are historically exploited, disadvantaged, mistreated, robbed, and oppressed there is little doubt some of them will be vocal in their protestations, and even say really nasty things to make their point clear. They are choked. Some people can roll with the punches, let it go, and succeed despite the odds. Others can't. I bet I couldn't. In your reference to Jesus' grave, I assume you do not accept the theory that he is buried on Mount Cardou in France? I have read much on the subject, and the history books I find most convincing are not often the accepted ones. For example, I have found that there is not a single contemporary writer of Jesus' time to mention him, or anyone in his entourage. Outside the bible, of course. Not one. I believe he was a real person, but not based on the evidence, because I can't find any.

I was watching the news on tv this afternnon and a British Muslim was going on and on about how we should understand them and that we should realise that the Pope's comments we insulting etc etc. and that Islam is a faith of tolerance and peace. Then zap.. breaking news.. Islamic fundamentalist had killed at least 4 people in bomb attacks in Thailand.

I was watching the news on tv this afternnon and a British Muslim was going on and on about how we should understand them and that we should realise that the Pope's comments we insulting etc etc. and that Islam is a faith of tolerance and peace. Then zap.. breaking news.. Islamic fundamentalist had killed at least 4 people in bomb attacks in Thailand.

It is funny how the media are hyping this frenzy up. It really annoys me. All the news channels are guilty of doing this. Iits about high time they showed both sides of the issue, than being biased all the time.

I just saw this on cnn

www.cnn.com...

The pope is upset about what happened but offers no apologies.He is right in doing so.As for the fact earlier in this thread whether I am a catholic or not,rest assured I am.But that's not the point about this thread,or whether K of C should become more militant.Those are things I would like to see. As for my goof up on the thread post-my apologies.My apologies on not getting the proper apostles creed.I copied and pasted from the wrong web page.I don't have a copy of the Holy bible on my pc desk!!!

ARNOMANNN -

Well it seems all News outlets are given out different stories. Here in the UK from both Sky News and the BBC, They reported the Pope did apologise to Muslims for the so called insults.

BBC Report:

Pope Benedict XVI has said he is sorry that a speech in which he referred to Islam has offended Muslims.

Well now if the News channels cannot get their reports right. Who else is there to listen to?

News Source

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
ARNOMANNN -

Well it seems all News outlets are given out different stories. Here in the UK from both Sky News and the BBC, They reported the Pope did apologise to Muslims for the so called insults.

BBC Report:

Pope Benedict XVI has said he is sorry that a speech in which he referred to Islam has offended Muslims.

Well now if the News channels cannot get their reports right. Who else is there to listen to?

News Source

Thats no apology. He is not sorry he said it, just that Muslims were offended. I guess that he wishes they just accepted his diss.
I hate that kind of apology. I am sorry you feel that way. Oh really? Well I would prefer if you were sorry for screwing me over, actually.

Thats no apology. He is not sorry he said it, just that Muslims were offended. I guess that he wishes they just accepted his diss.

I hate that kind of apology. I am sorry you feel that way. Oh really? Well I would prefer if you were sorry for screwing me over, actually.

Well you might not think it is. I think it is the first step to an apology.

Also Uk Muslim groups in the Uk have praised the pope for making the first step to recognizing the hurt he has caused.

Muslim groups in the UK have praised Pope Benedict XVI for apologising after Muslims were offended by his speech.

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said the Pope made "a good first step" in "recognising the hurt he caused".

Source

Hello people once more I started this post and like to say thanks for the input I don't think I have had a post with so many viewers and replies so thanks people and hope it gets one to think, as who knows where the future is heading.

This Information Age is making it hard to say anything within your own rights as what democracy is about, one can be wrong one can sound like a moron or one can have truth that hurts. Its a shame that our Western progress is deflecting back at us, we can speak anywhere in the world but we can not say what we want writhing our homes or communities. We are building our own prisons of what can and cannot be said. We either stand by the freedoms or we stay quiet.

Where are the anti-Islamic or democratic parties who appose it and questions whether if Islam has a right to stand and dictate to its people in the Middle East?
I guess they have been driven out our ancesters learned from this and said lets be seperate until history is forgotten and has to repeat it self.
T
here is no faith balance and it seems there never will be. What if people are in the harsher mental environments that this Islamic law brings should they not know Life outside Islam or are they forced and afraid to do so? Is why they always form the biggest minorities in countries that are not Islamic if the West is so wrong? Are they in need of freedoms to breath? If the 7 million Arabs in America or Muslims from the West got together they could go back and change or if not form a party that says it wants more freedoms in Islamic countries.

I went to a Roman Catholics school but our science lessons were about evolution and the Big bang but we had to do Religious Studies anyway. So it was balanced, I am not sure of how Islamic education is run as I have not looked into it, but I wonder if some things are forbidden to say.

Problem is how do they all really know that Islam is the one and only true way they can not even question outside of it. As a Christian I now I look at all angles I don’t mind people hating religions or atheists saying ok God is a myth or part of the human make up of mentality, its corrupt. By looking at how the apostles the prophets and Jesus him self was persecuted for speaking up. You can still be inspired, as it does not have to be fact as even a fictional view of the Bible could question other religions or teachings and teach some morals.


[edit on 16-9-2006 by The time lord]

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Originally posted by krossfyter
you missed the point of my post. as well... with all due respect... Jesus is not buried anywhere.
he rose from the grave. its in the history books... well according to my belief system.
lol

I do want to understand you, and I did find your post a little too vague to get a solid read on it. Did you mean that you see people accepting Christian bashing and not Muslim bashing? If so, I see far too much of both. But, I understand why it can develop into such a sorry state of affairs. If people are historically exploited, disadvantaged, mistreated, robbed, and oppressed there is little doubt some of them will be vocal in their protestations, and even say really nasty things to make their point clear. They are choked. Some people can roll with the punches, let it go, and succeed despite the odds. Others can't. I bet I couldn't. In your reference to Jesus' grave, I assume you do not accept the theory that he is buried on Mount Cardou in France? I have read much on the subject, and the history books I find most convincing are not often the accepted ones. For example, I have found that there is not a single contemporary writer of Jesus' time to mention him, or anyone in his entourage. Outside the bible, of course. Not one. I believe he was a real person, but not based on the evidence, because I can't find any.

yeh i mean that there are a number of folks who bash christianity in the media sector... even authority figures and all ... but you dont see christians raising arms and calling for the killing of or violence against those who decent.

as far as Jesus goes.... anyone usually can pull up information that tries to debunk his life and times... as well anyone can pull info for the other side. makes no difference to me.
im still grounded in my "faith" about Jesus birth, life and reserrection.

i dont need to touch the guys wounds to belief he is the Christ. all i needed was a conversion of the spirit. ive accpeted him in and da-mn Jesus does hit like the atom bomb (to qoute tripping daisy).

i can totally understand why you dont have the same belief system.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
Well you might not think it is. I think it is the first step to an apology.
Source

You are right, and it is better than nothing, but I have had that type of apology given to me when I was wronged, and it meant nothing. They were sorry I felt that way, not that they had wronged me, and on further questioning admitted they didn't feel they had done anything wrong.
So, I wonder if this is similar. Is he sorry he said it, or sorry they took it poorly?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Originally posted by krossfyter
you can pick on christianity but you cant pick on islam?

pfft.

you can pick on whoever you want, but why would you want to? does it help? The pope made very insulting statements, which cant help. Is he allowed to? Yes. Should he? Not a chance. What a horrid example. Jesus is turning in his grave.
Love thine enemy. Turn the other cheek.
How about those ideals?
We have freedom of speech, say whatever. But why say things that you know will only hurt, anger, and alienate people. Love alone can dispell hate. Pope Benedict showed more hate than love in his choice of material.

Jesus preached truth. He alienated, hurt, angered, and insulted the pharisees. They wanted to kill him for it. Sound familiar?

G.Houtchens
armchair coach
amateur historian

You are right, and it is better than nothing, but I have had that type of apology given to me when I was wronged, and it meant nothing. They were sorry I felt that way, not that they had wronged me, and on further questioning admitted they didn't feel they had done anything wrong.

We shall see if he, apologises more in the next comming days. I do not see it comming. I still think he done nothing wrong, maybe im in an minority.

There has been worse comments or words said with regards to muslims and the Islamic religion.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
I still think he done nothing wrong, maybe im in an minority.

There has been worse comments or words said with regards to muslims and the Islamic religion.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."'
Clearly aware of the sensitivity of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.

Well, he may have done nothing that is not able to be excused with the plausible denial defense. It was just a poor choice of quotes, and the timing was bad, but that was all. He never meant to foment anger, or cause division, etc.
Maybe that is true.
I don't think the leader of the RCC is that daft.
He knew bloody well that he was dissing Muslims, and implying that they are all evil. It is not explicit, it is implied, and is plausibly deniable... I say shame on him. What an awful example to set. He is supposed to be a rep of the 'love thine enemy' guy.... When I read his quote, I don't get love thine enemy from it at all.

www.washingtonpost.com...

It kinda sucks when people go out of their way to prove the Pope right. Say something they don't want to hear, and they try to blow crap up. Thats how they roll, and thats why I can't side with them. Theres a difference between protesting and firebombing a church, and I think it's safe to say the culprits crossed the line, and then took a mag lev as far away from the line as possible.

Was the Pope so wrong?

[edit on 17-9-2006 by Akraites]

i wish the same people criticising the pope would be as vocal in criticising the extremist muslims who justify through the Islamic religion, the murder of hostages and innocent victims They claim to kill in the name of Islam why do the moderate Moslem governments, believers and clerics not condemn these cowards?

I've read and reread Pope Benedict XVI's statements. If anything, the Pope was, indeed, challenging the Islamic world to bring about a peaceful and open dialogue. However, extremists, for a variety of reasons, were/are unable to do this. In a sense, it only confirms what the Pope, ultimately, expressed.

One problem -- and it is a problem --that exists in Islam is that there is no central structure that can interpret Islamic Scripture. It would seem that Islamic scriptural interpretation is left up to local Imams. Who holds these Imams accountable for their own personal interpretations?

Another aspect that exists is that the Imams are often the only ones in their communities in, for example, Afghanistan who can even read the Koran. This opens the way for an Imam to make interpretations that benefit or suit that particular Imams own personal point of view.

In my own opinion, Pope Benedict XVI was absolutely correct in making his statements. If nothing else, by the reaction of extremist Muslims, it demonstrates clearly the lack of tolerence, education and understanding of some of these extremist fundamentalists. Ironically, Christ is highly regarded in Islam as being the product of virgin birth and of being especially favored by Allah as a great prophet. One would think that today's Islamic world would have tried to understand the Pope's clear message to confront the perceived violent nature of their faith and Ji'had....instead, the extremists in Islam are only confirming what the Pope alluded to in his statements.

I've got a feeling that this could be a case of history repeating. This pope, according to the St Malachy prophecy, will die before the end of this decade. I believe that he will be assasinated, killed in some way by some muslim fundamentalists.
This will be the classic Franz Ferdinand of WWIII.
The World will go to war with itself, brother against brother, and then the end will rear it's ugly head.
But that's just my opinion...

Why don't the Muslims concentrate on condemning the Islamic fundamentalists such as Abu Hamza and Bin Laden who have tarnished the name of this so-called peaceful religion in the first place instead of a man (the Pope) who has an opinion.

Double standards here. They have free speech to demonstrate against what other people think about their religion, yet if we had in their way, in a non democratic society, free speech wouldn't exist.