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Is the Pope right for speaking up about Islam as no one else has...

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posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:31 AM
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news.bbc.co.uk...

This link above for my topic here, as I guess probably this has been covered here but I can not find it on ATS if the same story has been discussed anyway.

I find lots of people here saying how its wrong that we have made Islam look innocent in its teachings. G W Bush said it is was a religion of PEACE but some people argue that they are simply being too kind about Islam and infact it poses a threat to the West.

Ok people one well known person such as the POPE has spoken up.

Is he right or wrong? Or is it about time people woke up and begin defending our Westen Christian values. They always say our ways are wrong I mean they are taught that let alone being a non Muslim in their Countries is not an easy ride.

So is he right or has he further messed things up. The western leaders have been have been quite tollerant so far about Islamic ways saying its actually peaceful.

But even a Prison can be peaceful is you control the inmates and take their rights away. So is about time people woke up or is about time we were nicer about Islam its not so bad afterall.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by The time lord]




posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:40 AM
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the pope will be assasinated soon...it has been prophecised. Then the last pope will take over...then the end.


[edit on 15-9-2006 by surrender_dorothy]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:41 AM
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IF you read the article, it clearly states that he quoted a Pontiff from a long time ago. Although I have to agree with the Pontiff of the old days; what has Mohammad brought except violence and evil?



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:51 AM
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I know the Spanish inquision was not a brilliant time in Chatholic history but it was not somthing they read directly from the Bible and said look at this verse it tells me me to do it. Unlike the Koran you can pick many verses to justify the acts so hence 1400 years of the same old story, remember how it got off the ground in the first place. Why do Mulslim countries have swords in their flags? Why do they still behead the infidels, why is it illegal to be from another religion in other Muslim countries. Come on its not like Islam is democracy. Its not like it will want to be if they are under a death sentence to be indipendent from it.

Nothing from it has suppassed within it that was written before, if not set man kind back even further. Oh there are a few Propheicies in to like the Bible and an anti-Christ figure will also appear. Where was that idea taken from? This is what I mean the Pope was kind of saying too even if he was dictatating another Pope.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:55 AM
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I'd be willing to back a defence of Western Civilization if it truly followed the biblical teachings, 10 commandments (including the Sabbath), don't forget Leviticus. Only if it truly followed these teachings.
However now that we have become modern day Soddom & Gommoragh, the family unit has been broken down by the state in favor of Big Brother politically correct policy written by mostly deviants, I welcome the demise of this way of life.
I can't wait for the end of politically correct gov'ts & femnazi's & forcefed gay agenda by the media & special intrest groups.
Just leave me alone, I know I'll make it, but if you are a parasitic leech sucking off Big Gov'ts tit well your gonna be toast in a decade or two anyways.
My way of life can exist in a moderate muslim country, how ever it's getting harder & harder to be a straight white christian male who believes in a traditional family unit with one bread winner, one caregiver, home discipline and self sufficiency in the modern day West.
I want nothing from the Gov't and they don't get anything from me.
A man can be a man in the Middle East and not have to appolligize or feel guilty.
There is no such thing as intrest or Usury in the Middle East. No usuary laws would completley destroy criminal organizations like the federal Reserve & all other Central banking systems that have corrupted Western Gov'ts.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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We have two separate influences coming into play here; what the Pope actually said in his speech Tuesday, and the reaction as the spin sets in. I followed the original article I read with an expectation that the Pope's speech would be used to further inflame already tense relations between Islam and Christianity. this is evident in the article currently pending on ATSNN titled "Holy War."

For instance, quoting from the original article about the Pope's speech:



Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that Islamic holy war was against God's nature and invited Muslims to join in a peaceful cultural dialogue.

Citing historic Christian commentary on holy war and forced conversion, the 79-year-old pontiff quoted from a 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."'

Clearly aware of the sensitivity of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.

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Given the Inquisition and all, the Pope could have qualified his statements in light of RCC activities in the past, to avoid the appearace of "the pot calling the kettle black."

Now, the spin sets in, with Turkey's ruling party saying he's trying to revive the Crusades, and the Vatican saying it wasn't his intention to offend Muslim sensibilites. The Pope is scheduled to visit Turkey in November, btw.



ANKARA, Turkey - Muslims around the world expressed outrage Friday over Pope Benedict XVI's comments on Islam, with Turkey's ruling party accusing him of trying to revive the spirit of the Crusades and scores taking to the streets in protest.

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Pope Benedict XVI did not intend to offend Muslims with remarks about holy war, the Vatican said Thursday, scrambling to defend the pontiff as anger built in the Islamic world over his comments during a trip to Germany.

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Whatever the Pope's intentions were, you have to figure, in today's polarized world, that remarks such as the ones he made in Germany Tuesday are going to be used by radicals on both sides of the issue to further inflame sentiments already agitated by the existing state of affairs. Was it intentional on his part? Is he trying to start a Holy War? I certainly hope not. That would be foolish for a man claiming to represent the Prince of Peace in this world.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:01 AM
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Or is it about time people woke up and begin defending our Westen Christian values.



i dont have any western christian values. so whos values are you going to be defending? YOUR VALUES, and herein lies the problem. you dont have any concern for my values or their values, only yours. they think they're right, you think your right and i think both of you are wrong. so at what point do we come to a decision to get rid of religion and start living in the real world? when it comes down to it, we cant all be right about our beliefs.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:29 AM
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All monotheistic religions have a history of violence. I am not downgrading any religion in particular, but they all have a history of violence.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:34 AM
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All monotheistic religions have a history of violence. I am not downgrading any religion in particular, but they all have a history of violence.


thats because with religion comes religious fanatasism... theres always someone who beleives the fairy tales a little too much. i have no problem with the bible or whatever scripture someones respective religon utilizes, but when you start to belive the word for word transcription as real life fact then its just going to cause problems.

its one thing to have faith, but its a total other thing to practice faith and inturn push those ideaologies on those around you.

[edit on 9/15/2006 by bokinsmowl]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:38 AM
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This is a stupid move... but rather intelligent if this pope is concerned with bringing down his own Church, something he does quite efficiently since he's in office.

[edit on 15/9/06 by Echtelion]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:41 AM
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An absoloutely crazy thing to say right now in this climate, whether it is right or wrong, what the hell is a pope doing even suggesting that the prophet of another religion is evil imagine if it was turned on the catholics, who promote the non-use of contraception in african countires rife with aids whilst they lord it up in the Vatican.
I expect more riots from muslims and mabye an attempt on the popes life.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by Peruvianmonk]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by bokinsmowl

its one thing to have faith, but its a total other thing to practice faith and inturn push those ideaologies on those around you.

[edit on 9/15/2006 by bokinsmowl]


Exactly, I have strong spiritual beliefs,but I don't impose my beliefs on others. I can't say that I am religious because I don't view things as most "christians" do...I am spiritual, however.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:48 AM
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If you are referring to him as a religious leader, criticizing another religion then No. He has no right to do so, Give advice yes. But as far as I know all of this comes from him Quoting a 14th Century Christian Emperor.

Now It would be the same as saying that, say Bush or any other Governement has no right to criticize a religion.

I read his speech, as far as I can see he was not criticizing another religion.




posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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seeing Pope Benedict XVI Comment in Germany in regards to Muslims and Muhammad as being Evil helps nothing, if not provokes more tension between Christians and Muslims, what maybe now labeled as a Holy World War.

original news source:

news.bbc.co.uk
"The Pope, on a visit to Germany, quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things."

The British Muslim News newspaper has called for the Pope to apologise and "withdraw the insulting remarks".

"It seems he prefers confrontational style of dialogue with Muslims."





Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


I find this to be an extremely Negitive remark and uncalled for, only deviding the Nations of the world furthier.
The speach gave the "differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith".



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 12:04 PM
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In simple terms, my thoughts to your question would be YES.

It is amazing that in Islam the penalty for leaving Islam is death. I know that the other "3" big religions don't carry this burden.

I think the Pope was right but due to the outcry of not pissing off the world, he will backtrack......sadly.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 12:11 PM
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Personally, I'm a little sick and tired of all this Muslim sensitivity.

I would ask muslims: Are your religious beliefs so flimsy that they cannot bear even the mildest criticism? Can there be no objective analysis of the history of the Holy Prophet, or Islam itself, without censoring or omitting the harsh record of violence and death? Can you not even tolerate satire and humor, if it pokes fun at your history and beliefs? All other world religions put up with it, and they seem to be doing OK.....

Why is it that it is blasphemous to criticize Islam, or The Prophet? Why is it then in almost every other religion, if a person leaves that religion for another they are called a "convert". Yet is Islam on who turns away from The Prophet is an apostate, and the sentence for apostasy (per Sharia law) is death? Why are there so many offenses that can result in a charge of apostasy (such as mistreating the Koran, or creating a graven image of Allah or the Prophet), yet these offenses can have nothing to do with actually believing in Islam?

Why is it that your belief system is designed so that anyone who acts or speaks against your religion is only worthy of death? Well, to me the obvious answer is that this policy is an effective tool against those who would choose to leave Islam. Coercion is the unspoken cornerstone here, folks.

Please spare me the "religion of peace and tolerance" shinola. A cursory examination of the Quran and your history shows this to be untrue. It may be fashionable to wax poetically of the olden days of the Golden Age of Islam, when wise caliphs rules the civilized world in an evenhanded manner. But those days are as long gone, and the world has changed. Comparing Islam today to the Golden Age is a relevant as comparing today's Catholics to the Spanish Inquisition of old.

The great tragedy of Islam is that while most major religions seem to be progressing as man becomes more enlightened and wise, the adherents of Islam at large, in the grip of poverty and ignorance, seem to be in the midst of a de-evolution. Truely, it will only be after we have addresses those factors that Islam will be able to grow.

Of course, with the posting of this opinion, I must now prepare for the inevitable fatwah and jihad that will be declared against me, the godless infidel that I am......



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Even as a Judeau-Christian, I found what he said as offensive. First of all, I have read the Torah, Holy Bible, and even the Quaran (not all of it, but quite a bit). All three texts teach of love for one's neighbour.

In the 14th Century, there were crusaders slaying people, and people of other sects of Christianity throughout history were tortured and beaten because they didn't condone to the then philosophy/theology of the period.

I felt the Pope was standing in judgement of Islam and it's people. I have Muslim friends, although I don't practice Islam. I have taken the time to understand the theology, which what is what I thought the Pope would have done before coming out with that qoute.

His predecessor, John Paul was a truly remarkable man that pulled all people of all religions to him. He never passed judgement on any other religion or people; hence, that was why his passing was so sad for so many.

Then I often wonder, who writes the speech for the Popes. Surely, he has a writer much like the presidents and other world leaders to put together what he says. I can't believe that a man of his standing would stand in judgement of another religion.

I can imagine how people of the Islamic community must have felt to know what he said. I feel that rather than bringing understanding between Muslims, Jews and Christians, his speech will create a wider divide and segregation. Those of us of different religious beliefs will have to support each other and accept each other regardless of our theological preferences. We can't allow his speech to divide us from one another even more.

I am also concerned with what he has said that some people will use that as an excuse to attack Muslim families, whose only intention is to live in peace amongst us. I live in the UK where there is an abundance of different theologies; I would hate to see a Muslim woman and her children attacked or her husband killed due to a speech that may, or may not have even been written by the Pope, himself.

Coming from a Jewish-Christian lineage; my family through the centuries faced religious persecution at every corner. Religious persecution is religious persecution regardless if you are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim. (None should persecute the other, nor should any of them be persecuted).

You have extremists in every religious sect of society the world over. You can't tar the many for the sake of a few. Every human being is entitled, or should be entitled to religious freedom without fear of persecution.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 12:29 PM
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Wow you actually believe that people who believe in Islam are undergoing de-evolution? Pay no attention to the other 99% of Islam who only want to live a peaceful life...yet blanket all of Islam because of what you see on CNN.

You dont think that there are sections of christianity or any other religion that are are extreme as Islamic religions?
As far as the popes comment, I think he said what a lot of people think, which is unfortunate. However, being that he is the POPE and, you know, is supposed to be like jesus preaching tolerance and non-violence, unless of course hes a follower of the 1st half of the bible where god is pissed off, then I dont think it bodes well for the image of christianity.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 12:30 PM
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Lets hope there is not a backlash against the Catholic Community over this.

Should the pope apologise. I for one would say NO.

If he is forced to apologise then, all those people killed by Poeple from the so called Islam religion, should apologise for killing thousands of people also.

It works both ways.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 12:35 PM
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Well its not hard to see why comments like this was made Mohammad was no Biblical Jesus in comparison and if mankind has to better one self in a disciplined manner I see the West prospering a lot more than their faith.

I hope people know how Mohammad led his life and back track Biblical or democratic values when doing so, there is not much difference in Allah's personality compared to Mohammad when speaking of one self as God is built around his extension of his own personality. You would probably declare war right back at him if he was here today, I guess we are in a way by his legacy. I have done enough reading my self to conclude this.

The Koran more chaotically put together and is also made up of bits of information on bones and leafs that has been comprised together which the Bible has been accused of some editing. There is no order in how it should flow the larger paragraphs are at the front the smaller ones going to the back in that order. We also have to ask if God can be this disorganised if he had to put a message across. But apart from the Bible also being accused of being comprised of letters and books at least each part flows and cross-references it self thousands of years apart too to keep consistent. People accuse the Bible as made up or corrupted as the Koran also states but I wonder who has the most historical references and copies that suggest it has always been original and the least corrupted of the two major Holy Books. The Koran even says to read the Bible.

Apart from the above it may seem like the Pope is causing trouble but we should also see that many Westerns who at least know something about Islam and its history and its net round its people in their countries that maybe its not the answer for man kind. On the other hand Iran's president wants Islam to solve world problems. One of the two civilisations will have to reach an agreement if not go to war.

At the end of the day there will be a time where you have to say which do I chose? Will you embrace In Islamic empire coming your way or would you embrace your democratic values where both Christianity and democracy that holds no prisoners.

There will be world changes and this is only a minor integration of it all. It will be a full-scale war between the two civilisations it seems there is no middle ground. I am not making this up look at the Middle East now would you like to give them Nuclear power? Some one has to lose or adapt and these comments are fractals of the bigger picture.


[edit on 15-9-2006 by The time lord]





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