Is the Pope right for speaking up about Islam as no one else has...

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I want irrefutable proof that a Christian Democracy is the only way for a successful future for mankind. I also want irrefutable proof that Islam is bad, and Christianity is good.

Good luck, because it ain't there.

Alright you guys are missing the forest for the trees

For the most part Muslims that live in the United States are peaceful loving people who just want to practice their religion peacefully and live their lives. Also this is true in many other countries throughout the world but not in Islamic states such as Iran, and Pakistan, etc.

The problem is not the Quran, which excluding its punishment for adultry and apostasy, is a good guide. The problem is Islamic Law or the Sharia, Hadith, Al-Qiyas, and Ijma' which is used to indoctrinate muslims into believing that people who do not believe in Islam are second class citizens or infidels. Under the Sharia christians are viewed as infidels because we believe in the trinity which muslim law views as polytheism. Atheist are infidels because they are ungodly and do not believe in god. I could continue but islamic law has an exception to every other religion for why they are infidels.

Under Islamic Law non-belivers are called Zimmi's and these Zimmi's have very limited rights such as:

• Zimmis are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues. Yet, Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses of worship in any land they conquer.
  
  
• Zimmis are not allowed to pray or read their sacred books out loud at home or in churches, lest Muslims hear their prayers.
  
  
• Zimmis are not allowed to print their religious books or sell them in public places and markets. They are allowed to publish and sell them among their own people, in their churches and temples.
  
  
• Zimmis are not allowed to install the cross on their houses or churches since it is a symbol of infidelity.
  
  
• Zimmis are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and magazines.
  
  
• Zimmis are not allowed to congregate in the streets during their religious festivals; rather, each must quietly make his way to his church or temple.
  
  
• Zimmis are not allowed to join the army unless there is indispensable need for them in which case they are not allowed to assume leadership positions but are considered mercenaries.
  
  
• The Shafi`ites declare that a Muslim who assassinates a Zimmi must not be killed, because it is not reasonable to equate a Muslim with a polytheist

To sum things up Islamic Law justifies the subordination of non-muslims plan and simple. Whether you think so or not we are in a holy war a sort of Islamic crusades. So the fact that a simple comment like this from the pope can raise this much fury should tell you something about the direction this world is going in.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
TYAA Idiot, the Crusades were fought over disputed holy land. It wasn't Christian land except in the sense that it was held by force, through the slaughter of the muslims who lived there. And Saladin even showed the Christians mercy after reclaiming it by allowing them to live there peacefully, until the Christians came back and started killing again.

What a great guy that Saladin!

Two days after the Battle of Hattin, Saladin ordered the execution of all prisoners of the military orders by beheading. According to Imad al-Din, Saladin watched the executions “with a glad face.” The execution of prisoners at Hattin was not the first by Saladin. On 29 August 1179, Saladin captured the castle at Bait al-Ahazon and approximately 700 prisoners were executed. Some upon his orders and others by his men on their own blood lust.

Soon Saladin had taken back almost every Crusader city. He recaptured Jerusalem on October 2, 1187, after 88 years of Crusader rule (see Siege of Jerusalem). Saladin initially was unwilling to grant terms of quarter to the occupants of Jerusalem until Balian of Ibelin threatened to kill every Muslim in the city, estimated between 3,000 to 5,000, and to destroy Islam’s holy shrines of the Dome of the Rock and the Aqsa Mosque if quarter wasn’t given. Saladin consulted his council and these terms were accepted. Ransom was to be paid for each Frank in the city whether man, woman, or child. Saladin generously allowed many to leave without having the required amount for ransom. According to Imad al-Din, approximately 7,000 men and 8,000 women could not make their ransom and were taken into slavery.

Wikipedia.org

Well I suppose that about sums up Islam's view of how we in the west and everywhere else in the world are to be treated. Maybe it's time to re-think the validity of Islam as a religion? Or possibly we should use their own laws against them? How about slaughtering them at the same 100/1 ratio, then we could demand the lives of over 300,000 Muslims for the lives lost at the WTC on 9/11/01.


[edit on 15-9-2006 by 2stepsfromtop]

Remember, this is after the first crusade in which, Christian's all high and mighty, do this:

1096 - Participants in the First Crusade massacre Jews in several Central European cities, beginning centuries of pogroms linked to the Crusades.

1096 - More than 5,000 Jews were murdered in Germany in several different attacks.

May 3, 1096 - Count Emico of Leiningen, on his way to join a Crusade, attacked the synagogue at Speyers and killed all the defenders.

May 27, 1096 - 1,200 Jews commit suicide in Mayence to escape Count Emico, who tried to forcibly convert them.

May 06, 1096 Crusaders moving through the Rhine Valley massacre Jews in Speyer. This is the first major slaughter of a Jewish community by Crusaders marching to the Holy Land.

May 27, 1096 Crusaders massacre Jews in Mainz, Germany. The bishop hides over 1,000 in his cellars but the Crusaders learn of this and kill most of them. Men, women, and children of all ages are slaughtered indiscriminately.

1099 - Crusaders (European Christians) capture Jerusalem and massacre tens of thousands of the city's Jews.

1171 - Saladin (1138-1193) overthrows Fatimid dynasty in Egypt.

September 20, 1187 Saladin and his forces arrive outside of Jerusalem and prepare to assault the city. Defense of Jerusalem is led by Balian of Ibelin. Balian had escaped capture at Hattin and Saladin personally gave permission for him to enter Jerusalem in order to retrieve his wife and children. Once there, however, the people beg him to stay and take up their defense - a defense that consists of three knights, if one includes Balain himself. Everyone else had been lost in the disaster at Hattin. Balian not only gains Saladin's permission to stay, but Saladin also ensures that his wife and children are given safe conduct out of the city and taken to safety in Tyre. Actions like this help ensure Saladin's reputation in Europe as an honorable and chivalrous leader.

1187 - Saladin recaptures Jerusalem from Crusaders grants Jews permission to re-enter.

September 30, 1187 - Jerusalem is officially surrendered to Saladin, commander of the Muslim forces besieging the city. In order to save face Saladin demands that a heavy ransom be paid for the release of any Latin Christians; those who cannot be ransomed are kept in slavery. Orthodox and Jacobite Christians are permitted to remain in the city. To show mercy Saladin finds many excuses to let Christians go for little or no ransom at all - even buying the freedom of many himself. Many Christian leaders, on the other hand, smuggle gold and treasure out of Jerusalem rather than use to free others from slavery. These greedy leaders include Patriarch Heraclius as well as many Templars and Hospitallers

Don't get into this. Christians will come out behind.

And as I see it, this may just be a more modern attempt to goad another crusade.

Originally posted by bokinsmowl

Or is it about time people woke up and begin defending our Westen Christian values.

i dont have any western christian values. so whos values are you going to be defending? YOUR VALUES, and herein lies the problem. you dont have any concern for my values or their values, only yours. they think they're right, you think your right and i think both of you are wrong. so at what point do we come to a decision to get rid of religion and start living in the real world? when it comes down to it, we cant all be right about our beliefs.

"You have voted bokinsmowl for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month."

This is precisley the problem with religion: "ur either with us, or against us". Sure there's religious tolerance, but its tolerance in the sense of "let the misguided non-believers get on with their thing, and we'll get on with ours".

Christians/Jews/Muslims etc. can all live and get on wth eachother and agnostic/aithesits/etc. but the people of faith will view their view as correct, and any other view (with regards to God and what have u) as incorrect.

Whereas I may hold views which I will change accordingly to new experiences/events, religious faith is unshakable. So now we have people with unshakable beliefs that their views are right, and others are wrong. Which is where bokinsmowl's comment comes into it. These people wish to impose their religious beliefs and values on us (be it int the West or Middle East), under the pretence that they are correct. But there is no objective correctness/right or wrong, and when we start to mix subjective opinions with objective fact, we have problems...

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Remember, this is after the first crusade in which, Christian's all high and mighty, do this:

Don't get into this. Christians will come out behind.

And as I see it, this may just be a more modern attempt to goad another crusade.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would tell you that the crusades were just. However, was what Saladin did justified? Saladin was just fighting the other side of the Holy war and commited his own attrocities. If you would like to debate whether or not he did I would be happy to entertain a debate.

But honestly the crusades are over what you should be concerned about is what is happening today. Today, many Muslims have started their own crusades against everyone non-muslim, not just christians. I don't care about starting a christian crusade and that is not what the Pope is trying to do, he is simply trying to bring attention to the fact that a war is raging and the enemy views you as less than human. If we don't wake up one day you will wake up and you will be in the middle of the second holocaust, this time not just jews but all non-muslim believers.

Honestly, you are in a holy war whether you want to accept it or not. This holy war is a war to propogate Islam throughout the world and to destroy other institutions. Just last week the President from Iran spoke at Havard of the great benefits of Islamic Law and how it was the best form of rule. Coincidence? I think not. Bottom line is you cannot negociate with an enemy whose starting point is your death.

Its not just 'Christian' values. I'm agnostic, my father fought in WW2 against a despot loony that wanted to wipe out the Jews: Hitler.

Now we are faced with more despot lonnies that kill jews: Muslims extremist minority and their silent majority followers.

i'm not a christian but i was brought up in a western demcratic country and i dont want ti to regress back to the dark ages at the behest of people that will be the doom of us all if we dont wake up.

I think the Pope was right in saying what he said.. He's entitled to his opinion and if it offends a couple of people so what. It does people good to get offended once in a while. I'm sick of this hug a muslim attitude America has adopted. I live in Michigan and in Ham Trammic, Mi they have a muslim call to prayer 5 times a day over a loud speaker! A MUSLIM CALL TO PRAYER IN AMERICA! What happen to seperation of church and state?

Im not defending christians and all the wrongs they have done in the past but that was the past. Look at what the muslims are doing now. Peace loving? Ask the thousands of Christains they killed in the Sudan, Iran, Egypt and Iraq. Move to a Muslim run country and try to have a belief other than there's and see what happens. Muslims are peace loving only when they are out numbered.

Originally posted by AlteredStates
I think the Pope was right in saying what he said.. He's entitled to his opinion and if it offends a couple of people so what. It does people good to get offended once in a while. I'm sick of this hug a muslim attitude America has adopted. I live in Michigan and in Ham Trammic, Mi they have a muslim call to prayer 5 times a day over a loud speaker! A MUSLIM CALL TO PRAYER IN AMERICA! What happen to seperation of church and state?

So would dropping the creationism/ID in schools debate (amongst other things) over there in the US be a seperation fo church from state ?

Okay, so, eveyone hates Muslims. So what do you want to do about it? Nuke em? Kill all who don't renounce their faith? Imprison those that don't renounce their faith? If everyone is going to be hate mongering, then let's hear your final solution.....

Originally posted by AlteredStates
Muslims are peace loving only when they are out numbered.

Good point, just one thing I believe that Muslims even when in the majority are still peace loving. What makes them evil is the doctrination of Islamic Law which has little to do with the actual teachings of Muhammad.

It would be like me saying that Christian law states that all blacks should be treated like a lower class of humans because well, someone (Ku Klux Klan) a long time ago said it Christian law even though its no where in the Bible.

See what I mean?

Originally posted by john_bmth

Originally posted by bokinsmowl

Or is it about time people woke up and begin defending our Westen Christian values.

i dont have any western christian values. so whos values are you going to be defending? YOUR VALUES, and herein lies the problem. you dont have any concern for my values or their values, only yours. they think they're right, you think your right and i think both of you are wrong. so at what point do we come to a decision to get rid of religion and start living in the real world? when it comes down to it, we cant all be right about our beliefs.

"You have voted bokinsmowl for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month."

This is precisley the problem with religion: "ur either with us, or against us". Sure there's religious tolerance, but its tolerance in the sense of "let the misguided non-believers get on with their thing, and we'll get on with ours".

Christians/Jews/Muslims etc. can all live and get on wth eachother and agnostic/aithesits/etc. but the people of faith will view their view as correct, and any other view (with regards to God and what have u) as incorrect.

Whereas I may hold views which I will change accordingly to new experiences/events, religious faith is unshakable. So now we have people with unshakable beliefs that their views are right, and others are wrong. Which is where bokinsmowl's comment comes into it. These people wish to impose their religious beliefs and values on us (be it int the West or Middle East), under the pretence that they are correct. But there is no objective correctness/right or wrong, and when we start to mix subjective opinions with objective fact, we have problems...

Your values. So then it is right to lop the heads off of three schoolgirls enroute to school because they are christian. It's ok to place bombs in elementary schools in Russia and shoot little kids in the back when the swat team comes in. It's ok to kidnap civilians and to say to them "convert or die."

Your philosophy sickens me. The Muslim community is NOT on record for being upset with any of these actions whatsoever. It's silent assent, and it makes sense because Muhommed himself declared "infidel" life worthless when he observed a womans sons being slaughtered in front of her. Upon hearing her wails, he stated "as meaningless as two goats butting heads." They are following his lead, spiritually, to a tee.

Let someone "offend" by questioning Muhommed, however, and the whole freakin Islamic world is in an uproar. Why? Because murder and hatred are harbored in their hearts. The act is merely the culmination of the seed which has flowered.

Just for example: Muhommed had just finished signing a peace treaty with his neighbors when he ordered his men to attack and destroy these same neighbors. They butchered the men and raped the women and took them as possessions, because, according to the Quran, muslims are allowed to lie to infidels in the name of Allah. France has been the leading country in recommending restraint and diplomacy reguarding terrorism. So what does Al Qaida do? DECLARE WAR AGAINST FRANCE. CAN YOU NOT SEE THE COMPARISON?

I have some news for ya, fella. WE ARE AT WAR. It is mostly a spiritual one, unseen by human eyes and unheard by human ears. The enemy is the the common enemy of all mankind. The battle is for the souls of men. So, what god is it that promotes lying for their own purposes? That allows for women to be murdered after they have been raped to preserve the honor of the men in the family? That promotes the death of innocents?

It's NOT the Lord of Hosts!

G.Houtchens
armchair coach
amateur historian

So would dropping the creationism/ID in schools debate (amongst other things) over there in the US be a seperation fo church from state ?

I dont know and dont really care.. There is a huge difference between a debate and having some dork get on a loud speaker and start wailing like he got his ricky caught up in his zipper 5 times a day.

Originally posted by Houtchens

Your values. So then it is right to lop the heads off of three schoolgirls enroute to school because they are christian. It's ok to place bombs in elementary schools in Russia and shoot little kids in the back when the swat team comes in. It's ok to kidnap civilians and to say to them "convert or die."

What about the countless chechnyans living under opresion of the Russians with THEIR women and kids being killed? Don't make a fuss about that, do u? There's 2 sides to every story.

Originally posted by Houtchens
Your philosophy sickens me.

I'm sorry that my philosophy of open-midness, tolerance and understanding sickens u. Thats ur problem, not mine.

The Muslim community is NOT on record for being upset with any of these actions whatsoever. It's silent assent, and it makes sense because Muhommed himself declared "infidel" life worthless when he observed a womans sons being slaughtered in front of her. Upon hearing her wails, he stated "as meaningless as two goats butting heads." They are following his lead, spiritually, to a tee.

What about the Western silence on Palestinian issues? Or the US appraoch of just invading and slaughtering people for oil? Or the Lebanese/israili conflict? I could go on, but there's a nice brick wall outside Ive been meaning to have a conversation with. U live ina very black and white world. Shame the world isn;t black and white.

Let someone "offend" by questioning Muhommed, however, and the whole freakin Islamic world is in an uproar. Why? Because murder and hatred are harbored in their hearts. The act is merely the culmination of the seed which has flowered.

Thats just down-right ignorant.

Just for example: Muhommed had just finished signing a peace treaty with his neighbors when he ordered his men to attack and destroy these same neighbors. They butchered the men and raped the women and took them as possessions, because, according to the Quran, muslims are allowed to lie to infidels in the name of Allah. France has been the leading country in recommending restraint and diplomacy reguarding terrorism. So what does Al Qaida do? DECLARE WAR AGAINST FRANCE. CAN YOU NOT SEE THE COMPARISON?

Again, u live ina very black and white world. U have just confirmed the point I was making in my previous post. I applaud u.

I have some news for ya, fella. WE ARE AT WAR. It is mostly a spiritual one, unseen by human eyes and unheard by human ears. The enemy is the the common enemy of all mankind. The battle is for the souls of men. So, what god is it that promotes lying for their own purposes? That allows for women to be murdered after they have been raped to preserve the honor of the men in the family? That promotes the death of innocents?

I also have news for u, "fella". This "war" was based on lies, and serves no purpose but for those instigating it. Thousands of innocents have died and extremism furthered in this so-called "War on Terror".

Originally posted by AlteredStates

So would dropping the creationism/ID in schools debate (amongst other things) over there in the US be a seperation fo church from state ?

I dont know and dont really care.. There is a huge difference between a debate and having some dork get on a loud speaker and start wailing like he got his ricky caught up in his zipper 5 times a day.

So there's a differnce between forcing shools to teach religious doctrine as fact, is there? my my, thats certainly news to me.

To me, this thread has gone where so many on the topic go, and it is rightfully so. All the way back to Abraham, even all the way back to the Garden of Eden, we have the "seed of promise" versus the "seed of bondage." The "spirit of the law" versus the "letter of the law." The children of Sarah versus the children of Hagar.

The final conflict will be between these two forces. We are all being forced to choose sides.

Originally posted by BlackJackal

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Remember, this is after the first crusade in which, Christian's all high and mighty, do this:

Don't get into this. Christians will come out behind.

And as I see it, this may just be a more modern attempt to goad another crusade.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would tell you that the crusades were just. However, was what Saladin did justified? Saladin was just fighting the other side of the Holy war and commited his own attrocities. If you would like to debate whether or not he did I would be happy to entertain a debate.

But honestly the crusades are over what you should be concerned about is what is happening today. Today, many Muslims have started their own crusades against everyone non-muslim, not just christians. I don't care about starting a christian crusade and that is not what the Pope is trying to do, he is simply trying to bring attention to the fact that a war is raging and the enemy views you as less than human. If we don't wake up one day you will wake up and you will be in the middle of the second holocaust, this time not just jews but all non-muslim believers.

Honestly, you are in a holy war whether you want to accept it or not. This holy war is a war to propogate Islam throughout the world and to destroy other institutions. Just last week the President from Iran spoke at Havard of the great benefits of Islamic Law and how it was the best form of rule. Coincidence? I think not. Bottom line is you cannot negociate with an enemy whose starting point is your death.

Spot on

You get my vote for this month

First of all, i just want to start by saying the following:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into Heaven

Originally posted by ARNOMANNN
He descended into Heaven

Hmmm.

Are you certain about that?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Christian's all high and mighty, do this:

Those are all 900-1000 years ago. Got anything that big that is more recent? The point is that most of christianity is smarter than that now. The question is .. is most of Islam?