What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

BH and JSO, I didn't search all night for a source so that no one would look at it. The excerpts I chose were just that, excerpts. I understand that no one wants to read the whole thing (this is like hs), but if you wish to make any further argument, you really should at least check out the author's sources. If you did, you would have found that the model he uses is a general one, meant to cover the situations of any and all minorities in the workplace. That includes women. However, since his paper was specifically about black men, he applied the model to them only.

Now that the unpleasantness is over...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm claiming that it's not the RULING mindset. And until and unless someone can take an honest poll of all the corporations and political positions in America, I'm not sure we can say who's right on this one.

That poll is never going to happen but, you may have struck on something when you used the term "ruling mindset." I posit that this "ruling mindset" is cultivated by the ruling class. Let's assume the author is right for a minute. Would this ruling class tell you? They certainly wouldn't make the information public. So, for our purposes, we wouldn't have any proof, much less a poll, from their side, anyway.

You, BH, as much as I may respect your opinion as an individual, are just one woman. You may be a white woman, but I doubt that gives you special insight into the mindset of this ruling class. Unless Mr. BH is the CEO of a Fortune 500 company...

...But I promise I didn't intend to offend anyone and I apologize for the inappropriateness of it.

Thank you.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

On page 6, donwhite argued that "the mechanism [of choosing employees] is susceptible to favoritism" and you replied that he was wrong, because "some of the most sought-after [union workers] were men of color, because of their skills."

But now that you've been presented with more than someone's personal opinion, your response is:

Originally posted by jsobecky
...subjectivity exists in many decisions made in this world. I won't even address it.

So, which one is it?

Uh...it's both? Is that impossible? I don't see a problem here.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
BH and JSO, I didn't search all night for a source so that no one would look at it. The excerpts I chose were just that, excerpts. I understand that no one wants to read the whole thing (this is like hs),

I don't understand what you mean by that. Are you implying that BH and I are functioning at a high school level because we don't want to read the entire article, or check out your sources? Or are you implying that your research methods and attitude have not progressed past that point, and we should remember that when responding? Please clarify, or else leave those type of remarks out of the discussion.

If you did, you would have found that the model he uses is a general one, meant to cover the situations of any and all minorities in the workplace. That includes women. However, since his paper was specifically about black men, he applied the model to them only.

So, "one size fits all". If you can't find specific examples, or spend the time to do your own experimenting, it's always safe and "erudite" to climb under a great big tent that can have a million interpretations.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm claiming that it's not the RULING mindset. And until and unless someone can take an honest poll of all the corporations and political positions in America, I'm not sure we can say who's right on this one.

That poll is never going to happen but, you may have struck on something when you used the term "ruling mindset." I posit that this "ruling mindset" is cultivated by the ruling class. Let's assume the author is right for a minute. Would this ruling class tell you? They certainly wouldn't make the information public.

"Of course it happens. But you'll never hear about it because it would threaten their power if their secrets got out".

How many times have I heard that? How many topics can this be applied to? The NWO? UFOs? Big business? Bush and his cronies?

I think that what BH meant was that it was not the predominant mindset. It had nothing to do with class as a social stratum.

You, BH, as much as I may respect your opinion as an individual, are just one woman. You may be a white woman, but I doubt that gives you special insight into the mindset of this ruling class. Unless Mr. BH is the CEO of a Fortune 500 company...

Maybe Mrs. BH is the CEO, ever think of that? And your unstated premise that you need to be a CEO to have special insight is wrong. After all, isn't that what your author is trying to convince you that he has? Special knowledge?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
BH and JSO, I didn't search all night for a source so that no one would look at it. The excerpts I chose were just that, excerpts. I understand that no one wants to read the whole thing (this is like hs), but if you wish to make any further argument, you really should at least check out the author's sources.

I really don't have a further argument to make. I didn't actually see an argument in the first place. This is getting a little 'tense' for me and I DO NOT want to have any negative feelings between us. I don't like the 'tone' that's starting to develop here. Being right about my observations and opinions isn't that important.

Hello -

These questions are addressed mainly to Ceci and HarlemHottie, but anyone that has some insight, please jump in.

These are real questions, by the way, no intent to offend or bait or trap is involved.

The background: While I've not contributed heavily in this thread, I have read through most of it. And I must admit to some confusion on what you guys want.

It is overwhelmingly acknowledged here that black people have been the recipients of disgraceful and dishonorable treatment by both white individuals and white society.

It is also acknowledged that, while this situation has improved over time, it is still far from perfect.

So my question is, what do you guys want, specifically from other people on this thread?

Most people here have stated repeatedly that they do not practice racism personally, or at the very least correct that behavior when they discover it in themselves.

Most have also stated they fight racism when they encounter it in others.

I obviously do not know about anybody else, but I am a nobody in the culture. I am not rich or politically connected. I write the letters to my "representatives" on a regular basis, but they clearly (clear to me) do not give a damn what I think on anything.

So, to make the question as specific as possible, what would you guys like from me, OMS, that you do not have right now?

I would like to 'mooch off' OMS's fine post and add my name to this question. It seems like we're arguing, although we agree... That is weirding me out right now. I feel a little bit of animosity brewing (maybe?) and I'm not at all clear what it's about.

I have participated fully in this thread and I find I'm left confused about what I'm not giving that I 'should' be. It does feel like you want something from me but I can't put my finger on what it might be. It feels like you're trying to talk me into something that I already agree with...

So, what would you guys like from me, BH, that you do not have right now?

BTW, neither Mr. BH nor myself is the CEO of any company. Unfortunately...

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

I am going to take a little more time to answer both of your questions a bit later.

I give my apologies in advance for what I have to say, but it needs to be said.

But I wanted to say is that this thread has nothing to do about "our demands". I cannot speak for HH; nor do I intend to.

But, I think it's a little bit offensive to think that this entire discussion is a way to "make demands".

Now, I may have misconstrued your statements, I apologize in advance also.

But when white people complain of "Anti-White" racism on a platform, I'd be hard-pressed for someone to ask for "their demands".

However, we were trying to speak about how we view racism. We're not on trial here. We are not putting you on trial.

We are sharing our experiences and posting information for all to read about the plight of black people in society. Along with karby and Rasobasi, we are all trying to share our side of the story for you to understand where we are coming from. All four of us have different perspectives, as you have your different takes on the issues.

I don't think that anyone of us have ever asked you "your demands". I'm sure if we did ask you, it would feel a little demeaning to you.

So, maybe you should try to re-frame your questions. This thread is not a hostage situation. And no one needs to play hostage-negotiator. Just a helpful suggestion.



[edit on 14-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Karby, I am taking a little bit longer than most to address your comments because they were very thought-provoking. And I am trying to think about what I would like to say. Do not feel that I am ignoring your thoughts, ruminances and inquiries. I am also a little busy and would like to devote the time to them as I think they should.

Anyway, again you have my thanks for your participation in the thread. And please continue. If there is any topic that you would like to suggest or a question you like to ask in the meantime, please do so.

Take care my sister,

Ceci

[edit on 14-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Ceci -

Please note that the word "demands" appears nowhere in either my or BH's post.

I see no particular reason to rephrase my question.

I can add some information, which I am remiss for not doing in the first place. And for that I apologize.

I have a feeling, just a gut feeling, based on my experience reading and participating in this thread, that there is something you want.

Note that I am not saying "demand".

And I could be totally wrong. That's why I ask. I have a feeling, I want to check it out. I may be dreaming. Who better to ask than the people involved? If I'm wrong, all you have to do is say so.

I would like to call your attention to the first post on page 19 of this thread. (Sorry, I don't know how yet to include a link to that specific post... )

In that post, I was answering some questions you had posed, in particular:

Originally posted by ceci2006
1)What can be used as "effective" communication in terms of understanding racial issues so that everything is clear (thanks to Blarney63 for bringing this up)?

And my answer was, in part:

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Careful and thoughtful use of language. Use words with real meaning. Avoid terms with high emotional impact but vague denotation. ...

Now, I submit that the phrases:

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
... what do you guys want ...?"

and:

Originally posted by ceci2006
... "our demands". ...

are examples of different choices of language that have two very different emotional connotations. They do to me, at least.

There is one thing I feel sure you want, and that is a discussion on how to improve relations between races. This is an example of one way.

There is a 'feel' to conversations, do you agree? Definitely in RL, and I believe this kind as well, at least with some practice.

These conversational 'feels' are experienced by the individuals involved. They are not always accurate. The way I operate is, when I have a feeling about something, and I want to know if I'm nuts or not, I ask. I intend no offense. I am asking from a position of curiosity. If the answer is "Nothing, just a discussion", all you need do is say so. It won't be the first time I've been wrong... (by a loooong way! ).

Any answer is fine with me, I do not have an investment in a 'right' answer. You could say "Nothing, just a discussion", or "Yes, I want ...", or "Yes, I want something and I'm not going to tell you" or whatever. Or you can choose to not answer the question at all.

Also, this may be a case where the written word does fall short. I am not asking this question out of irritation or a wish to confront. I am NOT saying "what the @$^@$ do you want!!?"

Please assign to my words the tone of voice of someone with whom you are having a serious discussion, and they ask you a question, from honest, friendly curiosity.

In closing, I would like to remind you that I have never addressed you with anything but the utmost respect.

EDIT: Because I can never proof-read enough!
Really.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Open_Minded Skeptic]

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
It is overwhelmingly acknowledged here that black people have been the recipients of disgraceful and dishonorable treatment by both white individuals and white society.

It is also acknowledged that, while this situation has improved over time, it is still far from perfect.

So my question is, what do you guys want, specifically from other people on this thread?

If I may... I live in what is considered one of the most racially diverse cities in the world. At first we were told that this is good and that we could all live in harmony. But that is not what I'm seeing.

To make a long story short this is what is happening: they want what we have and will take it from us by hook or by crook. By power or by subterfuge.

White Europeans took this land from the Indians by power and by crook later.

Now it is being done to us but this time we are proving much more ignorant and nieve than the natives ever were.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
These are real questions, by the way, no intent to offend or bait or trap is involved.

And STILL, you took offense! (Did you think he was lying?) and chewed out OMS for something he didn't do ("demand"). The infamous quotes. :shk:

I wonder why it is that I totally understood OMS's real questions for what they were and you took such offense...

And you still didn't simply answer the questions... You say you want people to ask questions and when they do, you read a bunch of crap into them and turn them into something else and then chew them out for asking a question!!!

It really was a real question from me, too, by the way.

Jesus!

Originally posted by ceci2006
I give my apologies in advance for what I have to say, but it needs to be said.

No, it apparently didn't need to be said...

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I really don't have a further argument to make... This is getting a little 'tense' for me and I DO NOT want to have any negative feelings between us.

You (and then JSO) questioned the author's model by replacing key words in the text, and showing that the paradigm applies to women in the workplace as well. I agreed with you, and replied that the feminist angle had been taken into account. That's all.

I do admit to wording it tersely, but I was a little irritated. For that I apologize.

Friends?


HH

Originally posted by jsobecky
Uh...it's both? Is that impossible? I don't see a problem here.

Let me be even clearer then.

Donwhite claims favoritism in hiring and you say, no, the process is objective.

When an academinc paper claims favoritism in hiring you say, "...subjectivity exists in many decisions made in this world. I won't even address it."

So, yes, it is impossible for it to be both, because they're mutually exclusive.

Does anyone else see what I mean?

Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't understand what you mean by that. Are you implying that BH and I are functioning at a high school level because we don't want to read the entire article, or check out your sources?

I have a great deal of respect for BH and I would never make any such implication. In my highschool, none of my classmates ever wanted to read long books, over 300 pgs.

Please clarify, or else leave those type of remarks out of the discussion.

Considering some of the comments you've made towards me, that I've ignored thus far, you must be making a joke, right?

So, "one size fits all". If you can't find specific examples, or spend the time to do your own experimenting, it's always safe and "erudite" to climb under a great big tent that can have a million interpretations.

So, people don't read the sources but still feel the need to comment... at least in hs, when people didn't read the book, they downplayed it.


(*sigh*)

The author did, in fact, have specific examples. Furthermore, most studies begin with a hypothesis based on someone else's research. I thought that was well- known information.

I'm discontinuing this particular conversation. It's a bit silly for me to actually answer you, when you haven't even glanced at the source. If you need further explication, you know what to do...


(read the source)

edit to fix smiley faces

[edit on 14-9-2006 by HarlemHottie]

My solution would be to encourage inter-racial breeding on a global scale until everyone has the same basic physical attributes. I'm way too white and my offspring could use a little melanin anyhow.

I mean, we're all literally related anyway based on genetic marker studies but we too often forget that we're all brothers and sisters. And of course we're all from the same Source too. The surest way to reinforce that truth is by mixing things up some.

So the next time you see a person of color (if white) or a white person (if person of color) and he/she looks interesting to you, proposition that person and see where it leads. Especially if you see me.

Or is that solution too permanent?

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
And I must admit to some confusion on what you guys want...So my question is, what do you guys want, specifically from other people on this thread?

When I first read your question, I must admit, I was a little: This is why. Ceci and I are two different people. We don't have a list of demands. (That's why she used that word.) Everyone feels racism's effects differently. We are not one monolithic group. My concerns could very well be different than hers, and I bet they are.

When it comes to what I want from people in this thread, the answer's nothing. We all come here to discuss controversial topics and conspiracies, and that's all I ever expected from this conversation.

Most people here have stated repeatedly that they do not practice racism personally, or at the very least correct that behavior when they discover it in themselves.

I also wanted to address this. Although most people here have said that, there are studies that show that a lot of racism is unconscious. I can find them for you if you would like to see them. From what I can recall, to bring a workplace discrimination suit before that Supreme Court, you have to clearly show intent (that you consciously knew whatever racist action would negatively affect the targeted group). According to the SC, it's not racism unless you meant it. However, when it comes to other crimes, like murder, we have the '2nd- degree murder' charge, for just that possibility. Discrimination lawyers, or whatever they're called, are working on how to address this reality.

For our purposes, this theory that the majority of discrimination is rooted in the subconscious affects our conversation in the sense that, I believe it when people say they aren't racist, but I'm not speaking to their subconscience, and that's what seems to be causing the trouble. It's like asking, would you return a $50 bill you just saw fall out of someone's purse? The 'right' answer is yes, and most people would give it, but if it actually happened, they might react differently, in their own interests.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
Uh...it's both? Is that impossible? I don't see a problem here.

Let me be even clearer then.

Donwhite claims favoritism in hiring and you say, no, the process is objective.

When an academinc paper claims favoritism in hiring you say, "...subjectivity exists in many decisions made in this world. I won't even address it."

So, yes, it is impossible for it to be both, because they're mutually exclusive.

Does anyone else see what I mean?

And where did I state that the hiring process is exclusively subjective or objective? That's so obvious it shouldn't have to be mentioned. You're just grasping at straws now for some reason.

Let me state it another way: two job candidates have the same test scores. Why should one be chosen over the other? Skin color?

Or: one job candidate is a skilled, experienced labor that does quality work, always on time, and gets along with his co-workers. In other words, a proven commodity. Another candidate is a recent trade school graduate with no experience. Which one would you hire?

donwhite's assertion implies that skin color *always* plays a difference. Sometimes it might, but not always.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Considering some of the comments you've made towards me, that I've ignored thus far, you must be making a joke, right?

No joke, because your comment was totally out of place and inappropriate. That's why I asked for clarification.

As for comments I've made toward you, what comments are you referring to? And please don't just play the victim - either provide examples or leave those comments out of the discussion.

The author did, in fact, have specific examples. Furthermore, most studies begin with a hypothesis based on someone else's research. I thought that was well- known information.

No, most studies begin with a quest for knowledge and answers. If all you do is quote someone else's work, you're not doing real research. You're just repeating what someone else said, and passing it off as education.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
We are not one monolithic group. My concerns could very well be different than hers, and I bet they are.

Thank you for your answer and your candor. And I can see how you might have thought I was considering you two to be a 'monolithic group'... upon reflection, it seems I may not have worded the question as well as I thought I did at the time. I do not, in fact, consider you guys a monolithic group. I am well aware of your individual differences, and I fully anticipated you each to answer for yourself.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
When it comes to what I want from people in this thread, the answer's nothing. We all come here to discuss controversial topics and conspiracies, and that's all I ever expected from this conversation.

Thank you for anwering my question.

OMS and BH,

I'm sorry that you felt I was chewing you out for what you said. That is why I apologized in advance because I knew that it might be offensive with what I was saying. Because when I read OMS' post, it did sound as if you thought myself and HH were holding you hostage on this thread. That is the last feeling I want, of course.

And for some people, talking about race is like "pulling teeth".

And yes, I did say at the top of my post that I would answer your questions, but could not due to other concerns I had to pay attention to.

It did not mean that you were any less well meaning or that you did not mean sincerity in your questions.

But I have to agree with HH on this one. And I thank her for giving such a frank answer.

I have stated my goals for this discussion and thread three times now. And I find unfortunately, I have to repeat myself again to state the answer. I'm sorry that I have to do it, but it just has to be done.

I have always said that I wanted a discussion like this to get people to understand each other better. And I wanted to use what we've talked about for others who might be reading the thread to take these thoughts online and in the real world to at least treat other people with the utmost dignity.

But what do I want from you all for myself? Nothing.

And OMS, I know you have been very considerate of me, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. In fact, back on page 37, ("Good Whites/Bad Whites !?!") I commented how polite and mannerable you were in your posts to me. And I consider manners and politeness very highly.

It is just unfortunate that others do not share your ability to speak to people with respect and kindness and that is sad.

So, this is my answer. And now, you and BH can be fully satisfied that I have given it.



[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]