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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 01:01 AM
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Now that is a very nice gesture, SpaceDoubt. However, we will see how much play this movie gets once it is distributed to other theaters. And then, when it is in movie theaters across America, we will see how many people will see it.

You see, what we are talking about is not as wrapped up as a film. It is a very real problem that exists daily for a lot of people. Sadly, there is a double standard when it comes to suffering.

Some use their "cards" and get away with it because they have the sympathy of the crowd.

Others use their "cards" and they are "screaming about race" and "playing the victim".

It is up to you to tell the difference.

You see, treatment can never be one-sided. You can talk about melanin all you want. However, the point is about racial difference, the use of "race cards" and who feels sorry for whatever camp they identify with.

Let's be truly frank. No one feels sorry for the people of color in America because it is simply just too close geographically for other U.S. citizens.

It is easier to feel sorry for those existing outside our shores.

However, for those that get the most pity, they carry a special affinity due to their money, influence and political pull. That is why they can play the "Holocaust card" with immunity without being shouted down for it.

After all, some have a "right to have their homeland". Others don't.


[edit on 16-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
But some people can understand the suffering of Jews. They identify with their suffering because it was so horrible. Because they are white and of European descent, people pay attention to their suffering more. It is played up in the press and in government. Money is also an issue that makes the suffering of Jews more acceptable than of Blacks--especially with their lobbying and representation in American government.

You tried this on before and were shot down. The rest of the world did not care 'just because the were white' [not all were].. they cared because human beings being massacared.. but what do you do? You use the holocaust and make up some childish 'what if' scenario and then offer it as proof the world was being racist against blacks? There would be many people here who have been directly and indirectly hurt by this and you have just spat on it yet again.

It's a bit desperate to bathe the blood of another people to make your own look more bloody.

Grow up and show some bloody respect.

[edit on 16-9-2006 by riley]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 03:20 AM
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Originally quoted by riley
Grow up and show some bloody respect.


That is another personal attack. Especially with a foreign curse word. The third one without a mod to be seen. I wonder why?


As for the issue, I leave it to other posters who might have other insights about this problem. I see that other people are able to express these things better than I. And I am right, I am getting attacked for my views--which are historically referenced, by the way.

(Anyone can look up "Swing Kids" and "Nazi Propaganda" to see for themselves; in fact, the History channel recently ran a program showing the actual films that the Nazis used demeaning American Blacks in order to pressure the Swing Kids to stop listening to Jazz. Be my guest.).

I will participate again when there is another question brought up. I care more about the sensitivities of people than to express my own views at this point in time. I have said enough about this issue.



[edit on 16-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 03:40 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally quoted by riley
Grow up and show some bloody respect.


That is another personal attack. Especially with a foreign curse word.

Foreign curse word?


The third one without a mod to be seen. I wonder why?

Because you like to blatently violate the rules, abuse people then troll around pointing at people being a little bit sarcastic or using aussie slang.

What.. you want protection as well as immunity? The mods are not your own personal hitsquad.

Your edits:


As for the issue, I leave to other posters who might have other insights about this problem. I see that other people are able to express these things better than I. And I am right, I am getting attacked for my views.

Your views are racist. You have basically said that Hitler was defeated just to spite the black man. :shk:

I will participate again when there is another question brought up. I care more about the sensitivities of people than to express my own views at this point in time.

Hey I have an idea. Why don't you start yet another thread, dress it up as something 'innocent' like 'learning about cultures' etc.. and then steer the subject into talking about the 'evil whites'? I mean.. you've even decided that anyone who's survived the holocaust only did so because they're white. I guess 'the rest of them' [you know.. the couple of million people who died..] must've been black eh?
Obviously no-one cared enough to save them.

[edit on 16-9-2006 by riley]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 03:41 AM
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Now it constitutes stalking and harrassment. And you've made personal attacks to boot. That is against the T and C guidelines. I most surely would like a mod to come now.



[edit on 16-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Now it constitutes stalking and harrassment. And you've made personal attacks to boot. That is against the T and C guidelines. I most surely would like a mod to come now.

Don't be ridiculous. Stalking? And I'm sure it's just sheer co-incidence that said the exact same thing that provoked me a couple of months ago. Did you do that on purpose to get a rdaction from me?

You are not only offending me.. you are stomping on their graves.

BTW. If you want to scream for mods.. there is at least twenty things that YOU have said that would get you a warning [4 is a banning]. They have obviously cut you some slack in the past.. don't count on it now though.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 04:00 AM
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I've asked you to stop posting to me. Now, I'm telling you. Stop it. I am tired of your harassment, threats and personal attacks.

You can read my entire comments about what I've said about the Holocaust by looking it up. I don't need to explain anything else except to say your attacks are unwarranted.

I know that human beings were terribly massacred during the Holocaust. And I am humbly sorry for that. I've poured out my heart on that issue many times on this board. It tears my heart out every time. No one should ever endure what they have suffered. And no one should ever have to suffer that way again.

You've misconstrued my comments. And I'm tired of trying to explain them to you. You cannot be negotiated with.

But that was not the point of HH's question. It was why the "Holocaust card" is constantly played and taken with more sympathy than any card by a person of color. I suggest you read her comments and the entire thing.

I don't know what else will convince you to leave me alone.

And about forcing the mods to give me a warning or a ban, go right ahead and do it. It seems they have cut you way more slack than myself. At this point, it would do me a lot of good to be banned. And it would make a lot of people happier because of it.

But now, I am refraining until the next question is asked. And I do not want to deal with you ever again.



[edit on 16-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 04:32 AM
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Mods weren't here for the first 35 pages of this thread; to call on them now seems a bit disingenuous. It's the weekend; time to chill out.

I don't see the Jews as playing the race card. They would rather be left alone to work hard and succeed on their own; they are very intelligent and industrious. They have been attacked throughout their history. Now that they have a little slice of desert (which they will undoubtedly turn into an oasis) they are still being persecuted.

They suffered horribly during the Holocaust. But they were not the only ones singled out by the Nazis - Catholics, homosexuals, and many others were also.

Jews are attacked because they are Jews. But I don't see them saying they demand special treatment just because they are Jews. They do tend to get a bit defensive when ignorant people deny the Holocaust, though. So do I.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I most surely would like a mod to come now.

Actually, a mod to read from page ONE would be best. Horse feces out of mouths ... STDs ... Cancers ... oh there are PLENTY of insults that should have gotten warnings.


Now it constitutes stalking and harrassment

Having someone post on a thread when you don't want them to IS NOT stalking. Stalking is what YOU do .. bringing quotes from other threads and misrepresenting them on this thread. Read what stalking is.
politics.abovetopsecret.com...


I don't know what else will convince you to leave me alone


'Leave you alone'?? As in ... don't post here unless you agree fully with my version of reality?


How about you stop your hit and run personal insult tactics? You toss an insult and then run and hide saying 'okay back on topic now.' It's a cyber drive-by. It's a see through tactic which only BAITS the person to come back on. Baiting .. against the rules also.

If you REALLY don't want someone to come on here and expose you then stop talking about them personally. It's very simple. Otherwise those people will be back and they will expose YOU and YOUR various problems.


At this point, it would do me a lot of good to be banned.


I agree. Get off the computer. Stop posting complaints against the white race all day and go out and get a job. It would definately do you a lot of good. Get some fresh air and earn some money. Have some fun with it.



[edit on 9/16/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I've asked you to stop posting to me.

Well it was more a demand.. and then you kept bitching about me in the following posts so I figured you didn't really mean it.

Now, I'm telling you. Stop it. I am tired of your harassment,

So when you attack, offend and belittle people you are just expressing yourself and when others disagree or defend themselves they're harrassing you? I responded to false statements you have made about the holocaust. IMO it warrented a response [deny ignorance].

threats

I've never threatend you.

and personal attacks.

Is this when I reacted to your racist remarks or your calling me names? Please.


You can read my entire comments about what I've said about the Holocaust by looking it up. I don't need to explain anything else except to say your attacks are unwarranted.

I've read your comments and your claim is that people would not have cared about the holocaust if Jews were black. Not only is that offensive, racist [or even anti-semetic] it's also delusional.

I know that human beings were terribly massacred during the Holocaust. And I am humbly sorry for that. I've poured out my heart on that issue many times on this board. It tears my heart out every time because no one should ever endure what they have suffered. And no one should ever have to suffer that way again.

Yet you still felt compelled to say [paraphrased] "They were only saved 'cause they were white!" 1. They weren't saved or rescued from Hitler till it was much too late. 2. When you say you 'care' about what happened to a group of people.. it's not very convincing when you also express contempt for them.

BTW. This belief of your would be more plausable if only Jews ['whites'] died.. fact is many other races copped it as well [well after the sick and disabled were gassed first]. They are refferred to as 'the others'. Maybe you should research it and learn something instead of hoaring their deaths for your own agenda.

You've misconstrued my comments. And I'm tired of trying to explain them to you. You cannot be negotiated with.

I have not misconstrued anything. You have in fact said that people only cared about the holocaust because they were a 'white race'.

I don't know what else will convince you to leave me alone.

Not that I was bowing to your demands.. but I had planned to but then you mentioned the holocaust yet again. The main thing that aggrivates me [apart from the personal attacks] is the racist digs. You said you didn't want to talk to me yet make a point of bitching about me all while saying you want 'peace'.. then you proceeded re-hash a subject that co-incidently made me furious a few months earlier.

Why would you do that when you would've known what the reaction would be? I now believe you were baiting me.


And about forcing the mods to give me a warning or a ban, go right ahead and do it.

I can't force them to do anything.

It seems they have cut you way more slack than myself.


I haven't actually broken the rules.

At this point, it would do me a lot of good to be banned. And it would make a lot of people happier because of it.

You could always keep insisting it's because of your skin colour and not your charactor.


But now, I am refraining until the next question is asked. And I do not want to deal with you ever again.

I can see how my pointing out your own racism when you're meant to be fighting against it might be a problem for your credibilty.

[edit on 16-9-2006 by riley]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 07:34 AM
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This is an interesting and somewhat touchy topic.

PLEASE STAY on topic, please. Discuss issues and not your assessment of the other person's personality, background, heritage, and so forth.

To answer the original question from an anthropologist's standpoint, what we can do depends on who we are. As a Caucasian (and Texan) folks like me can't march down and say "okay, we're doing this and it will fix everything."

That's backwards. What we have to know is "what do the folks complaining feel is a proper way to solve this?"

I lived through the Martin Luther King era, and there was a mindset of "okay, we'll give Blacks access to our schools and we will let them drink from the same water fountains and use the same bathrooms and vote and eat at the same restaurants. Then they're equal!"

The response was "not hardly."

What they wanted was eqality and respect. What they got was "okay, we'll share but only in some places." The first Black families to move into White neighborhoods got very poor treatment.

So the real question is "what issues are other races telling us still need to be fixed and what suggestions do they have for fixing them."

In anthropology, we ask the people to solve the problem. We don't march in wth colonial pride and tell "little brown brother (or sister)" how to solve his problem. That just creates more issues and never fixes anything.

[edit on 16-9-2006 by Byrd]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 07:57 AM
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Being a Texan, I just had to comment on this:


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Here's my main question: Why is it more acceptable for Jews to "play the race-card" than it is for other races/ethnic groups?

In the first example, Larry King attempted to censure Ann Richards use of (what appears to be) a regional, idiomatic phrase. He was unsuccessful, because she really didn't seem to 'get' what he was saying.


Larry didn't attempt it -- he was just surprised by the regionalism. "Strong as mustard gas" comes from WWI, when it was used against Allied troops in Europe. Has nothing to do with Jews, who were killed with cyanide gas (not mustard gas) in the concentration camps.

And Ann didn't fail to "get it." We all understand our regionalisms and where they come from -- at least, those of us who have lived here long enough to use them do. The others are "all hat and no cattle."


In the second example, Wolf Blitzer attempted to censure George Soros' comparison. He was successful, after a while, but only because Soros 'got' it.

Again, no comparison. The Blitzer/Soros interaction is colored by the experiences of that generation. Blitzer has a fairly conservative view and is pro-Bush. He's agreed with the administration's explainations (including "the leak of Valerie Plame's identity was just an accident -- honest!") mediamatters.org...

He believes that the only good Catholic is a conservative Catholic:
mediamatters.org...

So when his guest compares the Bush administration and to the Hitler administration, he reacts not as someone defending the race but rather as a partisan who is angered that someone is denouncing the political faction he strongly believes in. Blitzer tries "Righteous Indignation And Judaism Tactic" and it really doesn't work with his Jewish guest.

He'd have reacted the same way if Soros compared Bush to Napoleon or Castro or Stalin or any similar figure. Since he selects his guests for the show, he knew ahead of time that this was an issue he was going to address and that he was going to play the race card in the interview.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd
What we have to know is "what do the folks complaining feel is a proper way to solve this?"


I can't agree more. That's why I (and OMS) asked, some pages back, "What do you want"? Even though the question was misunderstood and perhaps not asked in the clearest of terms, the intent was to find out what people of other races feel would be a good way to proceed. What do you want?

And the answer was, "nothing". At best, the response was "discussion". And I think the frustration that some people (including myself) feel is that I don't believe that will get us anywhere. Sure, discussion and education are great things, and I've been participating fully in both.
but they don't solve anything. They don't bring about results. And without knowing exactly what people want, I cannot fix it.

Another thing I'd like to clarify is that part of the reason people say "Stop talking about racism" is that talking about it doesn't bring about any real progress. When people only wish to talk about it, and nothing more, I (for one) am left with the impression that the other races only wish to complain and instill guilt. And I'm not much into hearing that about any subject and it does nothing to solve the problem.

I have been put down many times in these race threads because I "refuse to feel guilty". And yes, I do. I haven't done anything to feel guilty of. So if that's on the list of what people want, I do refuse to give that. The guilt doesn't exist and I'm not going to manufacture it or be condescending and pretend like I feel guilty.

I've also been told that I have no empathy or understanding and that I'm apathetic. That's just incorrect. I DO feel empathy and understanding. However, even though my participation and involvement in these threads has been enormous, being told that I don't care enough leaves me wondering of anything I can do would be enough.

That's why I asked, "What do you want"?



What they wanted was eqality and respect.


And they have that from me. I certainly can't make other people or entities respect or treat black people with equality, I can only give my own, which I do, on an individual basis, which is what I do with every other human being on the planet that I encounter.



So the real question is "what issues are other races telling us still need to be fixed and what suggestions do they have for fixing them."


Much better said.
I would really like to hear the answer to these questions from the other races on the board.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 11:13 AM
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Wow, a lot has happened since I last posted.

First off, I want to remind everyone that I asked a question, and I really would like everyone's opinion. This conversation is not about the personalities of different posters. We can discuss that in BTS. If you have a problem with someone, the T&C pretty much lays out your options, none of which include duking it out on the board. I have been guilty of it myself, but, really, we have to move beyond it.

Second, thank you Byrd for your comments. I'm going to respond, but I just wanted to say that I am very excited about this occasion: one of my posts elicited a reponse from you. I don't mean to, like, gush, but let me say, I am excited.


Okay, to the issue.

Originally posted by Byrd
So the real question is "what issues are other races telling us still need to be fixed and what suggestions do they have for fixing them."

Finally! The pattern thus far has been, Ceci or I introduce a point of contention, and instead of asking the insightful question you just posed, people argue the validity of the point. We find studies, and sources, and people still argue. It's tiring.

Since I've been posting my personal 'race issues' since the thread started, I'm going to get a few outside opinions and bring them back to the group.


Originally posted by Byrd
Larry didn't attempt it...Has nothing to do with Jews, who were killed with cyanide gas (not mustard gas) in the concentration camps.

I can't say for sure if Larry knew the WWI reference, I certainly didn't, but when he says "That's not very Jewish of you," I get the impression he's linking mustard gas to something offensive to Jews in particular. What else could he have meant?

About the cyanide vs mustard gas, I know that, and you know that. Unfortunately, however, according to 'popular American pseudo-history', as I like to call it, mustard gas was used on the Jews in WWII. So, I took the exchange as Larry King 'pulling the race/religion card' in an attempt to censure her use of the phrase. When (black) people objected to the use of 'tar baby,' they were accused of it.


Originally posted by Byrd
And Ann didn't fail to "get it."

I put that in quotes because I couldn't think of another way to explain it at the time. I meant that she didn't fall in line, as was expected, based on his response. (The "I gather" was said in the snippy way, implying disapproval.)


Originally posted by Byrd
So when his guest compares the Bush administration and to the Hitler administration, he reacts not as someone defending the race but rather as a partisan who is angered that someone is denouncing the political faction he strongly believes in. Blitzer tries "Righteous Indignation And Judaism Tactic" and it really doesn't work with his Jewish guest.

So, is it regular partisanship, or the "Righteous Indignation And Judaism Tactic," or the latter by way of the former? I'm confused... I believe you when you said that Wolf would have reacted the same with any other dictator reference, I'm just interested in the mechanics.

btw, Soros is Jewish?

Third, let me address this:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I can't agree more. That's why I (and OMS) asked, some pages back, "What do you want"?... And the answer was, "nothing". At best, the response was "discussion".

Actually, no. This is what OMS asked:



So my question is, what do you guys want, specifically from other people on this thread?

Or, rephrased,


So, to make the question as specific as possible, what would you guys like from me, OMS, that you do not have right now?

I answered "discussion" because we are in a discussion board. Unless I knew OMS personally, in RL, I can't make any useful suggestions because I don't know what he can do. If he's a student, there's one approach; if he's a small-business owner, there's another approach. See what I mean?



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 12:43 PM
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I sit and read the attacks on my personality while on my desk, the DSM-IV, two books about the Holocaust and a book on Cultural Studies sit next to my computer. I can only laugh at the remarks leveled at me because people can say these things and not have the same access to information. And they don't post scholarly articles which disprove or prove what I'm saying. Yet, because of what I said, it brought the house down.

I am not anti-Semetic (which is wrong because Arabic and African peoples in the Middle East can be Semetic; please correct me on this notion anyone). I do not hate White people. And I do not hate the Jews (part of my hometown neighbors and lifelong family friends were Jewish people, some of which helped my mother and father out when it was "politically incorrect" during the Jim Crow era to do so.).

It goes back to my comments before about "scholarly thinkers" and scholarly thinkers.

HH and myself see a lot of things differently about race, ethnicity and culture. But, I agree with her post above. And I thank her for her defense of me. She is a fair, insightful, and wonderful individual.

Everyone's opinions are welcome. And there have been many on this thread that I could agree with or not. Few people are willing to think outside the box and stretch their minds to other possibilities. For those who do, I thank you.

And I thank Byrd from the bottom of my heart for coming on here and lending her opinion on this subject matter. It is very important to note that one's personality is not at play here. It is the topic we are discussing. And for those who are well-versed about the topic, should be able to discuss their insights without attack. Those who play at knowing the topic only level petty complaints because they have little to no insight to explain anything else.

I think we can think about this in a scholarly light. After all, another great thread, "Why do people hate the Jews" went on for a while with people actually thinking about this phenomenon. And no one leveled any attacks at the thread starter for her views. Not a one.




[edit on 16-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 12:43 PM
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[Double Post] I am very sorry for that.


[edit on 16-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Unless I knew OMS personally, in RL, I can't make any useful suggestions because I don't know what he can do. If he's a student, there's one approach; if he's a small-business owner, there's another approach. See what I mean?


Hi, HH - I respectfully am not going to buy this line from you. If I understand anything about this subject, the 'thing' people want more than anything else is to be treated with respect and honor based on their individualality, not on the predominant light wavelength that happens to be reflected from their skin.

And further, my guess is that people don't want to be treated with such respect and honor, but more importantly want other people to actually feel that respect and honor.

Now, whether I am a student, small business owner or my RL name is Bill Gates (it isn't) might have an impact on how such feelings of respect and honor manifest. Clearly if I were Bill, I could do you more economic good than I could as a student, but the holding of respect and honor based on your person not your color is not affected at all by my position in life.

Do you see what I mean?



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
It goes back to my comments before about "scholarly thinkers" and scholarly thinkers.






Everyone's opinions are welcome.
...
And for those who are well-versed about the topic, should be able to discuss their insights without attack.


So, it sounds like both opinions AND scholarly thinking are welcome here, right? And people shouldn't be humiliated for adding their opinions, even if they don't have a desk-full of scholarly articles... right?



Those who play at knowing the topic only level petty complaints.


So, everyone has to KNOW the topic or else they're complainers???



And no one leveled any attacks at the thread starter for her views. Not a one.


You must not have read as far as the THIRD post in that thread.


Originally posted by Vegemite
I think your just a copy cat that wants attention. Why dont next time you come up with an original post.



Originally posted by ceci2006
And I thank Byrd from the bottom of my heart for coming on here and lending her opinion on this subject matter.


Do you happen to have an answer to her question? I'd really be interested in reading it.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 02:19 PM
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Just so this doesn't get lost in the mire... I'd like answers to this VERY important question.


Originally posted by Byrd
So the real question is "what issues are other races telling us still need to be fixed and what suggestions do they have for fixing them."


In other words, what do you want?


Individual answers appreciated.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 04:25 PM
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I won't answer the question with the attitude you're taking with me. I think, you missed Byrd's point about attacking others about their personality,heritage, etc.

But I will say this:

Yes, I did, read "Why do people hate the Jews". The entire thing. Even down to the post about Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. I even read past that particular post.

By the way, my answers were a couple of pages ago about what "I wanted". It would behoove you to go back and read them. I am tired of repeating myself again and again.

But on the other hand, this is a thread that deserves a heck of a lot of scholarly attention. Not links that lead to nowhere. Actual stuff by scholars who studied the phenomenon of race so that people can read opinions from the field. But, it does require one to be well versed in some matters in order to respond in a scholarly and intellectual light.

Unfortunately, some just let their emotions take over and brand anyone with anything they please.

People who have studied this area do not have to call anyone racist or talk about someone's personality. They are able to hash out the problems and talk about it without applying labels to anyone. They can take this issue and break it down to its minute parts and bring forth ideas.

It requires that sort of attention to have a true discussion.



[edit on 16-9-2006 by ceci2006]



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