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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
No. If you're trying to say something, come right out and say it. Jeez...

I can't tell if you are playing dumb, or you really don't get what I'm saying. I can type slower, if that would help...


from HH
You're assuming quite a bit. You keep asking a question, I keep answering it, in the man's own words. If you wish to divorce yourself from the most elementary of biographical research techniques, reading the primary source, you're on your own.

And you're being naive by believing that what comes from a man's mouth is the truth. Esp. when he's talking about himself. More often, it's what he wants you to think is the truth.




posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I can't tell if you are playing dumb, or you really don't get what I'm saying. I can type slower, if that would help...

Ad hominem attacks won't answer the question. I'll re-state it for you: were you implying that those who fought for the equality of all Americans are not your American heroes?

Answer the question. It's easy.



And you're being naive by believing that what comes from a man's mouth is the truth. Esp. when he's talking about himself. More often, it's what he wants you to think is the truth.

Why would he lie about where he changed his mind about whites? What difference would it make to the end result? Seriously. I could understand it if you were wondering that maybe he had been lying about his change of heart, but to belabour the location... well, it seems like you're nit-picking.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Ad hominem attacks won't answer the question. I'll re-state it for you: were you implying that those who fought for the equality of all Americans are not your American heroes?

Answer the question. It's easy.

First of all, don't demand. Ask, and if I feel like it, I will answer.

That's not the sole criteria of what makes an American hero to me, so take it as you will. I will state this, clearly, so you understand: Malcolm X would not be included on my list of American heroes.



Why would he lie about where he changed his mind about whites? What difference would it make to the end result? Seriously. I could understand it if you were wondering that maybe he had been lying about his change of heart, but to belabour the location... well, it seems like you're nit-picking.

You misunderstood. I never stated that where he had his supposed epiphany made a bit of difference, and you know I didn't. I was questioning the sincerity of it.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:22 AM
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BH,

I am finally going to use the "correct way" to quote and take the bull by the horns. When I came back and read this, I could hardly contain myself.

I am quoting you verbatim, am I not?


Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic
Look at how Ceci responds to the whites in this thread who agree with her. Exactly what I said about Good Whites and Bad Whites exists in this thread. Agree with Ceci and you're a Good White. Disagree with her and you're a racist Bad White. Of course, you (HH) can agree or disagree with her and you're considered Good, because you're black.


Wow. I am truly struck speechless. You really went for the racialized comment here, didn't you?

To be honest, I don't have a pecking order in this fashion. But I am fascinated that you just went out and said such a thing, for being such a "flower of tolerance" around here.

I respect people who give me respect. And that means people from any background or race. If they are willing to give me the benefit of the doubt, I will do the same. However, I am very blunt. I've tried to lessen my bluntness over the years, but for the most part I just say what has to be said.

And I've said it before. And I'll have to repeat myself again, I truly don't care if anyone disagrees. That's not important. What I look for is how they speak their mind and express themselves.

I don't respond well to people who attack my character, education, parentage, or upbringing. People of all stripes who do not treat me, my loved ones, friends and those who are suffering well are the ones that will not earn any respect at all from me.

And, to be honest, you are perpetuating another "racist" stereotype, something that you abhor doing. I am very sorry to induce such a strong reaction in you. I know it must not have felt good to go against the very thing you say just to accuse me of such a thing. It never feels good to go against your principles, even when you are trying to make a larger point.

I thank seattlelaw, HarlemHottie, Duzey and the others who did give me the benefit of the doubt and defended me. They are able to see this topic with sense and candor. I've exchanged a lot of posts with a whole bunch of people from many backgrounds on this board. For the most part, it has been a very beautiful and uplifting experience to speak with people from a variety of backgrounds. However, there are others who have "crossed swords" with me. Even there, it has been an educative experience because they allowed me to see the other side of the issue even if I vehemently disagreed with it.

Especially for some I disagree with, I respect them because they and myself were able to slow down and hash out the problem without any vicissitudes.

But there are those who, by their own sense of meanness, in the past and the present, have said things that were especially ill-mannered, mean and impolite to me. Now those are the people who I lost respect for because even in their disagreement with me, they are unswerving in their ability to change. They are resistant to reason and refuse to even question their beliefs in the introduction of new ideas. They don't necessarily have to "get it", but they do have to attempt to try and see it from my side. And the ones I do not respect do not see it from my side. They only go with theirs.

And when they dole out comments like "passive/regressive", "hypocrite", "uneducated" and others with no attainable reason, I have to put my foot down and fight back with the gloves off.

I especially thank Duzey for acknowledging that myself and others have a tough style when dealing with issues like these. It's not a likable style for most people. And even it troubles me if I come out being too harsh. That is why I always edit my comments so that I can re-evaluate my position if need be.

But on other threads, I respond differently and perhaps more gently than on this one because the subject matter is different. There are particular issues and posters that do not respond well to negotiation, politeness and kindness. They just won't have it. It doesn't mean that they are "bad". They are being "impolite" and "impudent".

Now there are others, that if we actually sat down and talked it out, we would see a lot of similarities in thinking. Those people who acknowledge this are ones I respect too, regardless of race.

But Good Whites and Bad Whites? I suppose, after thinking about it, there is some sort of hierarchy somewhere in the world that catagorizes whites in such a manner. But you've got the wrong person here.

I'm not going to fight you on this one, because people will believe you and probably use this as yet another stigma. So be it.

But, there are those on the board and in the world who are able to read what I am saying with an objective mind and treat me accordingly in a mannerable fashion. I will respond most readily to people like that.

In that way, I haven't forgotten Open Minded Skeptic's answer to my earlier post. If he is willing to give me some time, I will answer his questions most whole-heartedly. Now that's a guy who has given me respect and even asked for my apology if he has gotten anything wrong. Now that is what I like. He is able to express himself and still retain a bit of gentility when so many others do not follow the protocol of politeness.





[edit on 12-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
That's not the sole criteria of what makes an American hero to me... Malcolm X would not be included on my list of American heroes.

That wasn't so hard, was it?

Now, we have something to work with. Let me ask you: Are you basing your opinion on pre-hajj Malcolm or post-hajj Malcolm? Also, what are your criteria?



You misunderstood...I was questioning the sincerity of it.

A-ha! Okay, now it makes sense.




Edit to add: Do you also doubt the sincerity of his professed hatred of whites?

[edit on 12-9-2006 by HarlemHottie]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:59 AM
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HH,

You and I both know that the perception of his sincerity in "hating whites" will go uncontested. It's part of the party line. It's what has been fed in the media since the Civil Rights era. Imho, it is part of the larger conspiracy to keep pitting different sides against each other if you think about it.

Martin = good

Malcolm = bad

It's sad, but for most this is a mantra. The dichotomies are there for a reason. People take this hook, line, and sinker without even delving deeply into the philosophies and lives of the two men. But, they can point out the differences between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams on the back of their hand (they didn't call Adams "His Rotundity" without reason, you know
).

Your links and my posts of excerpts from The Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965) have gone unnoticed and unread by some posters.

And I took time to underline and bold everything!





[edit on 12-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 04:57 AM
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OMS, your comments have not gone unnoticed. I apologize earlier for the little disruption. But now, things have calmed a bit to answer what you've asked:


Originally quoted by Open Minded_Skeptic
And this may be one place where generalizations can cause trouble. How respect is accorded and received varies a LOT even here in the US, let alone in the world.


I agree with you here, because different cultures have various ways in which you are to receive someone politely. Language alone (especially in Japan) has about six different ways of giving respect depending on the social relationship between people. And the gestures made introduce even more protocols in affording respect to others.

I would suggest that the writings of Mikhail Bahktin might be interesting reading on this concept of language and culture. Mr. Bahktin's books focus on breaking down the different ways social circles relate to one another. It has been very much even demonstrated in discussion how people in the same race refer to one another opposed to how people from different races deal with each other.

And furthermore, "Jim Crow Ettiquette" is just one more way in which speech and gesture revealed the different positions of race and societal position in terms of respect and disrespect.


Here is a true story: I've explained before how I was raised regarding race, and I grew up in a culture that would probably best be generalized as Northwest US hillbillies. One way people of that culture accord respect is to denigrate each other's truck, looks, intelligence and stubborness. I'm not sure that style would be considered respectful in some places in the US, but to them, it is. I'm not totally sure what I'm trying to say here, other than sincere practice of respect may look really different in various places. I know I've learned (painfully ) to approach a situation assuming respect and honor are present, because of the large variety in how different cultures in the US demonstrate respect. If they are not, it usually becomes real obvious pretty quickly.


I'm not surprised. You have to think about the Gullah people in South Carolina and Georgia as yet another example. They have a language and a culture all of their own. And in that culture, there are still different ways of respect afforded to people.

To think about it even further, there are differences between Americans of different states in terms of accent, dialect and speech especially when it affords respect. In some states,especially in the South, respect is given by saying "Ma'am" and "Sir". In other states this acknowledgement is dropped.


I want to be sure I'm following you here. When you talk about judging based on race, do you mean the initial, ingrained distrust someone might have of a person of different race?


No, I meant more in terms of treatment.

There was an action that has perpetrated a racist action of treatment sponsored by a business, there is a reason for a loss of respect. There is a story in my family of an aunt who would not (after she was successful) ever support an Insurance company because years back when she went to this company for a job, the job interviewer threw her application in the trash right in front of her. That action compelled her to support another business who would treat her with respect.


Or do you mean judging based on knowing someone, and not respecting them because they steal or drown kittens and also because of their race?


No. That is quite different. People do heinous acts regardless of race. I would not respect anyone of any race who kills or tortures animals.

I've said in another thread that I didn't respect the soldiers who raped and killed an Iraqi woman and murdered her family, so I do not "support all the troops". That is also regardless of race.

And what could you say about someone like Idi Amin or Hitler? They are both dictators who have caused genocide regardless of their race. What about some soldiers in the Japanese army who tortured Chinese citizens and had Korean "comfort women"? These are all unrespectable heinous acts committed regardless of race.



Speaking strictly for myself, my answer is 'No', I would not and do not respect all Blacks or any other color of people I've met. Without regard to how others of their bretheren have treated mine. And 'Yes', I respect some Blacks, both professionally and as people I know.


That is fair to say. I thank you for your honesty. I think we cannot truly respect "all people" from a given race. There are people from all races that we can respect on the basis of character and other deeds that resonate with us. But we can't be immune to biases here too.


If you are saying the dominant culture would benefit from a change in how it affords respect to individuals, I absolutely agree. I do not, however, believe that race-basing is the sole thing that needs to change, nor is this unique to the dominant culture.


I agree on all parts. Where we might disagree is that race is sometimes used as a way to affording respect to some over others because of societal conditioning. The media, politicians and other opinon makers seem to always highlight a particular person of color as "a credit to their race". In essence, those who are perceived a "credit to their race" are most often than not are paid more respect by being "assimilators" who accomodate to what the dominant culture stands for. D'Nesh D'Souza is a perfect example of an "assimilator" who is deemed "good". Condoleezza Rice is considered an "assimilator" is also deemed "good". And further down the line it goes.

Furthermore, dominant culture sets up divisions between people of color by introducing the concept of "model minorities". By having this concept, other races of color are pitted against this "model minority" because it is instantly perceived that the "model minority" holds are the cards for assimiliating the best into American Culture. As a result, other races of color who are not the "model minority" are considered "lesser than" in terms of intelligence and societal viability.

These are two of many reasons why the definition of respect towards all people need to change. Diversity of personality, ideological leanings, deeds, etc. must be a factor in redefining the notion of respect.


I think this thread talks turkey in a big way.


I know it does. But, in this particular issue, I think we need to talk turkey about how respect is truly being handed out between people and races. If people redefine the notions of respect, we wouldn't need such heinous labels as "Good/Bad" anything.


I believe this statement as worded is correct and incomplete.


That is fair. I never said that I knew everything about this subject matter. I am contributing my part, though.



I believe the 'dominant culture' exists. However, it is not strictly 'White'. So to assume 'dominant culture' = 'white' is incorrect. I acknowledge that the dominant culture is mostly comprised of white people. Not entirely.


In a way you're correct. I could argue that some people who were "assimilators" and "accomodators" are part of the tokens accepted by this exclusive class of people. But mostly, dominant culture is comprised of White, Straight, Anglo-Saxon Males. They own the businesses. They lead government. They are the pundits. They are the opinion-makers.


In the discussion of 'bad' and 'good', the word Blacks may be replaced with 'Fat', 'Gay', 'Woman', 'Poor', 'Muslim' and many others and the statement will stay just as true. This is not a situation unique to black people.


It is not a situation unique to black people. But it is more emphasized by casting judgement on Black people more than most. There are always pundits around who are lauding Clarence Thomas while forgetting the strides Thurogood Marshall made. And that's because Thurogood Marshall struck down (as a lawyer) laws against the old boy's club of segregation.

But now, the good/bad dichotomy is being used on Muslims because of 9/11. A Muslim that rats out his neighbor as a terrorist is a "good Muslim". A "bad Muslim" is one who is practicing "Islamic Fascism" and wanting to bomb anything American. Because of that, Muslims continue to be discriminated against because there are a whole bunch of people who think that Muslims cannot live their lives like everyone else; they have to be part of a terrorist cell.

(Note: Yes, I know that Islam is a religion and there are white Muslims. But the Muslims being sought out are of color.)

The problem has to do with stigma.


Based on my experience, my opinion is that the 'dominant culture' is more of a class division, 'class' being mostly defined as 'economic class', than a race division. In other words, in terms of the dominant culture, it is better to be black and rich than it is to be poor and white. If race were the deciding factor, this would not be true.


I think it is both class and race which determines these things. But respectfully, I haven't thought out all the reasoning why yet. That is why I agree with you and still have points of contention to bring up.

But being black and rich does not give one automatic respect. Look how they treat Oprah when she shops at stores around the world. Star Jones' ouster from The View did not sit well with a lot of the "dominant folk" who sided with Barbara Walters.

But then, they didn't treat porn movie moguls with respect either.

But there are many stories of poor whites who made something of themselves and have gotten world-wide respect. I am reading the biography of one right now: Dr. Alfred C. Kinsey.

Maddonna is another one. Steve Jobs is another one. Tony Curtis is another one. And the beat goes on and on.



[edit on 12-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 05:42 AM
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from HH
That wasn't so hard, was it?

It was like pulling teeth.


Now, we have something to work with. Let me ask you: Are you basing your opinion on pre-hajj Malcolm or post-hajj Malcolm? Also, what are your criteria?

It was more of a hypothesis than an opinion. And I'd say it was based on his pre-jajj activities.


Edit to add: Do you also doubt the sincerity of his professed hatred of whites?

No, I think that was the true Malcolm speaking then.


Originally posted by ceci2006
HH,
:
Imho, it is part of the larger conspiracy to keep pitting different sides against each other if you think about it.

Interesting point. Earlier, when we were discussing apologies, I mentioned that the RNC Chairman, Ken Mehlman, apologized for the "southern strategy". Do either of you doubt his sincerity?


Your links and my posts of excerpts from The Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965) have gone unnoticed and unread by some posters.

And I took time to underline and bold everything!

Haha. You know, sometimes you can have a sense of humor. It's a key to personal balance.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
your ... You .... you ... I ...l I ... FlyersFan ....you're a brown-nosing, opportunistic ....I .... I've ... my ....I'm .... I ... I .... my ....You ....I... You've .... you ...your ...you ... you ....you ... I .... you ... you .... your .... you .... You've .... You .... you .... you .... you ... you .... brown-nosing.... your ... my your


Taken from an actual Ceci post that is supposedly on topic and not a personal insult.
Post # 2478727 on page 36.


edits and re-edit them with your lies

No one has to 're-edit' your posts. It is very easy to use the quote button and grab it before you have a chance to edit (sometimes 4 times) the insults and pick the one you want to use. They are all direct quotes of the muck you've been posting. If you can't remember the words of your own posts from just a few minutes before ... then you need to get to a doctor. Seriously.


It should be easy for you to say whether you hate Blacks or not.

I already said I don't. You don't like the answer. You WANT people to be racist. You must. It's the only reasonable explaination for your behavior.


[edit on 9/12/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 06:00 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by FlyersFan
What was it that moved him so much on his pilgrimage that he changed his position and even denounced his earlier anti-white rhetoric??

Why do you keep asking the same question?

Because we haven't figured it out yet and I really want to know. Perhaps since the he is dead we will never know. But then again ... perhaps someone here knows what happened at that point in his life and can explain it. THAT's why.




[edit on 9/12/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ceci2006
your ... You .... you ... I ...l I ... FlyersFan ....you're a brown-nosing, opportunistic ....I .... I've ... my ....I'm .... I ... I .... my ....You ....I... You've .... you ...your ...you ... you ....you ... I .... you ... you .... your .... you .... You've .... You .... you .... you .... you ... you .... brown-nosing.... your ... my your


Taken from an actual Ceci post that is supposedly on topic and not a personal insult.
Post # 2478727 on page 36.


Now, that's funny!




No one has to 're-edit' your posts. It is very easy to use the quote button and grab it before you have a chance to edit (sometimes 4 times) the insults and pick the one you want to use. They are all direct quotes of the muck you've been posting. If you can't remember the words of your own posts from just a few minutes before ... then you need to get to a doctor. Seriously.

You're right. Taking a short break before submitting what you wrote is a good tactic.

Take it from someone who often wished there were an "un-mail" feature in VMS.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 09:11 AM
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A bad Black is someone who speaks out at the system and slaps the "Man" in the face with his or her comments.

A good Black is someone who idly sits by and accomodates. They fully speak about joining American culture without even questioning their treatment in it.



Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Please, I beg of you, read my sources. I promise, you'll learn something.



I have read your sources and I'm sorry to say that I didn't learn anything...



It was that they had developed an elaborate mechanism for distinguishing between those they felt were "good" blacks and those they felt were "bad" blacks
...
"Good" meant that you came from outside the neighborhood, because employers identified locals with the crime and dissipation they saw on the streets around them. "Good" also meant that you were an immigrant...


So, your first article does not address this particular "good black/bad black" mindset, but another one altogether. The "good blacks" are immigrants (which I have already touched on as I related my own personal experiences of dating a foreign black. I observed that once some people knew he wasn't an American black, they loved him!) And that leaves the American blacks as the "bad blacks"...

Nothing here about good blacks accommodating. IN FACT, the immigrants who didn't accommodate were the "good blacks".

Oops!


So, a small minority of people do categorize other people as "good ones and bad ones", based on their willingness to assimilate instead of their character. Raise your hand if you KNOW that they are just prejudiced (racist in this case) and full of BS...


The other article is totally political. Not a word of assimilation or accommodation or standing up to slap "the Man" in his face. This is about Good Blacks voting Republican... And, let's be honest here, anybody who votes Republican is going to be considered a "good _____" by the GOP... That's a political thing not a white thing.



One can, however, object to a political equation that deems the only good black a Republican one.


So, I was mistaken. I thought I would learn something by reading these articles and it turns out I already knew this information. From personal experience and political awareness...

That's not to say that the idea of "good blacks and bad blacks" that is supposedly the meat of this discussion was once a very important and ruling mindset in this country. But no more. If you believe that, you're living in the past. That's an old, outdated, not to mention ignorant and stupid mindset that should be left in the past where it belongs. Sure, there are still people who buy it, but there are still people who handle snakes and some who believe the earth is flat, too. We don't judge all Christians by that small group and I don't have any hope of or desire to change their minds... Do you?

Some people are ignorant and stupid. I get the feeling sometimes that until EVERY SPECK of racism is blotted out, you (generic) will hold it against "white people". I think it's unrealistic to think that ALL of any thought pattern in this world will be completely obliterated.

AND, because the few who still may hang on to this ill-informed "good black/bad black" mindset are mostly white, it's unfair and incorrect to say that the "dominant culture" ("white people") needs to change their definitions. We have. Join us, won't you?



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 09:44 AM
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Benevolent Heretic.

You've just summed up the entire thread with one post...

This special one of a kind WATS is for you...

Ending a problem isn't about shouting down those with whom you disagree, it's about talking it out...and calling them in effect "closet racist" or worse isn't the way to do it.

This whole Good Black/Bad Black argument, oh sorry, discussion; is really pointless. So some country club republican with more money than brain cells thinks a black voter who voted Republican is one of the "good ones", who cares? His value are skewed beyond any hope of recovery...the end of racism, which will not occur anytime soon inspite of our efforts, there will always be those who hate that which is different from themselves.

The hope actually lies with people like Benevolent Heretic, who treat those around her as she would wish to be...surely the Golden Rule is applicable in the case of racism, or any other sort of bigotry?

My views should be known if not a quick recap: I try to treat those around me with genderless colorblindness. Of course I take note of gender, I am after all male, racial makeup, not so much. This sounds trite, but some of my best freinds that I've made in my life are blacks, hispanics, and orientals, etc...to lose the oppourtunity to know these people and to be in there lives because I can't see past a layer of skin? Phooey.

Many of the people who have posted here, and on other threads on this subject, seem to be alot like me...they take the individual for what they are, not what they look like. Good rule to live by in my book.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 10:48 AM
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Then, what shall it be? A thread that fully engages the suffering and racism that whites experience?

Because, that is exactly what I'm hearing. But in the scheme of things, you all forget something very important. I'm writing my posts from the point of view of a Black woman. You are writing your posts from the point of view of White people.

And because some people who readily dismiss things as "muck" or "generic" stuff is because there is a culture clash.

Well fine. I have no qualms at all if you all want to broaden the focus of this timely and vital issue. But, I would have appreciated the fact a little more if all of you could be more understanding of the issues here at stake. And coming from your posts, I find that you are not. In fact, you think of this all as a joke.

All I can say is that I shrug and realize that this is what I expected. I could not expect anything more uplifting, polite, intellectual or progressive from any of you.

I'm kind of sad though that you have to resort to such things to make yourselves feel better than others who are "lesser than". And unfortunately, you find yourself "intellectually" and "emotionally" superior because of it.

Of course, you're not the racists. Who said you were? But you have to do a beat down on someone else because you can.

Hell. Malcolm was right. Racism isn't with Blacks at all. It's an American problem. And it resides right in the front lines of the white community. Your latest comments truly expose how dire the situation really is.

And if you can't even solve it yourself except to ridicule and make jokes about it, then we are truly lost. And that, is something that is very tragic.

But go on. Feel your oats. Get it out of your system. Because my ideals still are here. And I still don't hate whites despite of your abhorrent behavior and comments. And basically, I know that out there more thoughtful and sensitive people to this important issue exists beyond your pedestrian and rather plebian thoughts and ruminances.

Laugh and ridicule all you want. I don't give a damn. I simply don't. I'll still be here having discussions with others who are open to converse with me. And the ones who simply are there to antagonize and laugh at this important matter, I'll shrug and go on.

I don't have any anger or frustration now. Not any more. I just have pity. I felt like I just witnessed a cross burning back there on a lawn with all of you standing around and laughing like it was no big thing.


[edit on 12-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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Hey ceci

When you randomly "enclose words or phrases" with quotation marks, it gives the impression that others have used those terms. Most often, nobody except you have used them.

It's similar to Randomly Capitalizing Words in a Sentence to give the impression that it is a news headline.

You do the quotation mark thing a lot. For example, your most recent post contained "muck", "generic", and "lesser than". Who except for you has used those terms to relate to blacks?

It puts people off, or on the defensive. Not a good way to stimulate productive discussion.

Take it for what it's worth.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:13 PM
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I've always seen this thread not as addressing racism exclusively against blacks or exclusively against whites, but as the larger issue of racism between all races. I thought the purpose was to discuss bettering race relations, not to prove or cement any racism that currently exists. We all know it exists. Surely it doesn't take us 37 pages to discover that.

Although some people's race may play an important part in their identity, mine does not. I am posting here, not as a white woman, but as a person. The fact that my skin is white has very little to do with who I am. I don't identify with my race. I don't see myself as a "white person". Why would I? I'm just a person. A compassionate, intelligent, concerned person. I'm an American.

Very little in this thread has been a joke. These are serious and important issues and information in my opinion. There has been some light-heartedness, thankfully, sprinkled throughout the thread. I am glad for this. This is a heavy subject and I think it benefits to take a break from the 'heaviness' of it from time to time. Certainly, the whole thing was not a joke. And nobody thinks that.

Speaking only for myself (although I'm fairly certain that I could accurately speak for most people here on this issue) I don't feel that anyone is "lesser than" me. Nor do I find myself superior in any way. I have never said or implied that. I don't work like that. That's just incorrect perceptions.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I've always seen this thread not as addressing racism exclusively against blacks or exclusively against whites, but as the larger issue of racism between all races.

Thats been one of the points I've been trying to communicate but apparently 'anti-white' racism is a seperate issue? How are people suppose to talk about race relations if we are only alloud to talk about victims of certain races? Perpetuating the idea that they're two seperate issues only serves to solidify the 'us' and 'them' mentality.

And what on earth is this concept of 'reverse racism'? I find that term offensive.. it implies that whites are the 'default racists'.. or worse still that they we [as in caucasians] are not a race at all. Where do people get off on labelling a whole race racist? I mean.. when [legal] slavery and segregation existed many people genuinely believed they were superior.. they were taught these myths but now we know better. Most of us realise that the differing skin colours and features that 'define' races are merely the result of differing climates. Melanin [or lack thereof] is no indication of charactor. It's just skin for godsake.

Edit. I noticed that racial profiling has been mentioned. Of course I agree that it is disgraceful to assume all muslims are potential terrorists.. but thats no less ignorant than assuming all christians want to blow up abortion clinics or that all whites want to join the KKK.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by riley]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 01:59 PM
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As odd as it may sound...racism is color blind. Or rather bigotry is color blind. We've all seen it, some of us have experianced it. Those who have are black, brown, white, male, female, straight, gay, and any combination therein. To say anyone group has an exclusive monopoly on experiancing bigotry is to miss the larger picture. Bigotry is as hateful when a gay white male experiances it, as it is when you, Ceci, experiance it.

Racism is just one part of the monster that is bigotry, a paw if you will... To concentrate on one paw of the monster is to ignore, and ultimately be smacked by the other paws.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by seagull]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 02:08 PM
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You just wittnessed a cross burning on your lawn with all of us standing around it? I pity your very narrowminded focus...we don't agree with you so we suddenly become bedsheet wearing Kluckers. Nice...



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 03:02 PM
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i don't know how this post will fit into this discussion, as i'm just kinda throwing it out there. i really do hope it's not just glanced over like most of the rest of my posts at ats. but i did read through this entire thread. yup. each and every post. the link i'm about to post i can really identify with. i remember feeling like this when i was a kid. for 8 years from 1st to 8th grade, i went to a majority black private catholic school, like 99.99% black or something like that. now i too am black. but the only "difference" (if you can call it that) is that i am an African black, specifically Nigerian. but i was born and raised in DC and that alone should make me an American right? wrong.
according to the rest of my classmates i was just...well...i think i'm just gonna leave the whole ethnic slurs/bullying/torment/humiliation/anything else you can think of out of this post, but the point is i was (still am) an African. i fit the typical stereotypical "African" look: nappy hair, less than light skin, non-western name. if that wasn't bad enough, my parents were struggling as immigrants to make it. so i couldn't have any of the nicer things my other classmates had. and hair was always an issue with me. in 2nd grade one of my teachers had once found me crying in a corner. when she asked what was wrong and i told her, her response: "yea, well maybe you deserve it. see how all the other girls have "good hair" and you have "bad hair"? well maybe if you had "good hair" the other kids wouldn't treat you the way they do." my sisters and i had begged our mom to straighten our hair, and she agreed to do it once, which was a mistake. apparently she didn't have the knowledge of what exactly a perm was made of, and just how much it could hurt a kid's hair. now not only was my hair nappy, but it was now short in some spots, cutting, and extremely damaged. what i've described doesn't even scratch the surface of what me and my sisters went through as kids. i remember wanting to look just like that damn doll. because it was "good" to be light skinned with pretty hair, and God just hated black people. and i STILL hate barbie. with a passion.

www.mediathatmattersfest.org...



ultimately, i have rejected the whole hip-hop/"cool" culture, it seems to personify something that i hate: that "dark skinned" women are everything "bad" and that "light skinned" women are everything "good".
i have also rejected the Catholic faith as garbage, and have accepted the fact that God as an entity is non-existant. i do not, nor will i ever again let a perm, relaxer, or any of that other crap touch my hair.
now i'm 22 yrs old, with a degree from Howard U in comp science in less than a year. my parents are no longer struggling: my mom is one of the head RNs at Providence. Hosp. and my dad just recently go his PhD in Public health. and as for both of my sisters, 1 is in Med school in Poland, and the other is in pharmacy school here at Howard. and those pricks i knew in grade school? well i don't know about all of them but i do know that 1 works at the pizzaria down the street from my school.




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