What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Originally posted by jsobecky
As for comments I've made toward you, what comments are you referring to?

I can't tell if you are playing dumb, or you really don't get what I'm saying. I can type slower, if that would help...

And you're being naive by believing that what comes from a man's mouth is the truth.

That's two insulting, unneccesary and, most importantly, off-topic comments in one message. And then- this is hilarious- two pages later you say,

Hey Zedd, I thought you were going to put an end to these petty insults???

Yes, Zedd, would you please?

And please don't just play the victim - either provide examples or leave those comments out of the discussion.

"Play the victim?" You are too much... really. No wonder Ceci thinks you're prejudiced. A black woman calls you out for your bad behavior, and I'm "playing the victim"?

For someone who's not a mod, you spend a lot of time moderating the discussion. Why don't we leave that to the actual moderators?

No, most studies begin with a quest for knowledge and answers.

...yes, and then scholars review the findings of other scholars, to see how far they got. Otherwise, they're just reinventing the wheel.

Why is it when some whites feel as if they are against the wall, the first thing they reach for in their bag of tricks is to throw out "behaviorial issues"?

I mean no disrespect, but it always happens. Can't Black people be allowed to feel their own emotions? Can they be a little "angry" or "offended" at the comments made by whites without it being a total breakdown of the Black's personality?

And before you say this doesn't happen, remember, two people called me "passive/aggressive" (fully in quotes, of course). That proves alone that when a stigma is attached by someone, others of the "same ilk" follow it to a tee to brand and scorn the behavior and personality of someone else.

That is not my behavior or personality. And I consulted both the APA dictionary and the DSM-IV on this one(at this time the DSM-V is still being written). So please think before you ever apply any behaviorial analysis on anyone of us. Or else, one day, you might find yourselves in the same place by someone else who finds you are all possessing a behaviorial or mood disorder.

We wouldn't want to go there, would we?

And believe me, in this thread, there are a lot of assessments of personality that need to be made. I can think of a few borderline cases of Narcissistic Personality Disorder off the top of my head right now. Well, then again, severe.

Just a little helpful, FYI.



[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by jsobecky
And where did I state that the hiring process is exclusively subjective or objective?

Originally posted by jsobecky
I have known many union workers, and some of the most sought-after were men of color, because of their skills. It had nothing to do with skin color. Any other criteria used to choose your crew is bound to cost more money, and that's not why people are in business.

donwhite's assertion implies that skin color *always* plays a difference.

And then you claim that employers decide who will benefit the company the most, objectively picking the employee most likely to produce the most/highest quality widgets in the shortest time.

So, yes, that statement directly contrasts with what you said a few pages ago. Would you care to explain the change?

Originally posted by ceci2006
Why is it when whites feel as if they are against the wall, the first thing they reach for in their bag of tricks is to throw out "behaviorial issues"?

I don't think that characteristic is restricted to whites, but I have to agree with you in the case of this thread. Apparently, I suffer from a victim mentality.

I wonder if I qualify for disability?


Or is that just me "playing the victim"?

Yes, HH, it seems that there are a lot of "armchair psychologists" on this thread.

Don't worry, though. I've been already branded with the "victim mentality" more than once on this board. That is becoming old hat for me.

I think we both qualify for disability.

And you know that they don't want to stigmatize the disabled with getting "handouts" and "social giveaways". Why, that would be in poor taste.

But seriously, you are right. Mean-spirited behaviorial assessment is not tied to one race. But I can make a pretty good case that it is prevalent in one race above others by just simply reading this thread.



[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]

karby, I'm sorry that I didn't get a chance to answer your posts earlier, but I would like to take the time right now to thoughtfully write about what you've saying.

Originally quoted by karby
as far as this goes, on a personal level between myself and other americans, black AND white, it's to a point now where nobody can tell where i'm from unless they see my name. then and ONLY then will they begin to ask questions. it kinda blows me out a little bit that people will actualy look for a difference when one isn't so readily available.

Sometimes, people are being curious. Other times (especially with this climate after 9/11), there are some people who are so wrapped in the American flag they probably see your name and go into convulsions. I think you have the right attitude as you stated in your previous post: the "A" factor. Some people are "A's" and others aren't. I think that's a good system to have. And I have that same system when I deal with people.

Really the only thing i can do is try to educate bit by bit. and that's fine with me.

That is all you can do. I think that is the most important thing to do in race-relations. You have to tell it like it is. That is why I believe it is important for others to talk things out so they can understand each other. Otherwise, people have a lot of stereotypes on their minds without anything to disprove them.

In my eyes, african struggles are a lot more complicated than black American ones. many africans from other countries that i have met usually blame the struggles of their respective countries on three things: colonialism, the corrupt leaders in power, and the lack of an oppurtunity to a decent education.

I think due to the history, society and politics of Africa, you are right. In Africa, the struggles are intensely complicated. Whenever I read or hear about them, I think that sometimes what happens in America is child's play. But, with struggle, progress comes. People have to want to see a better future for themselves and their children. They have to fight for it. The same goes for America as well. The citizens have to try and be politically and socially aware of what is going on. That comes from having a strong desire to educate all segments of the population.

. I think that black americans have it a little bit eaiser, because many things are available to them. not readily, but available in the country. back in high school, the amount of quarterly honor roll students could literally be counted on one hand. unless you are able to obtain a private education or tutor, DC public schools don't give a damn about you as a student.

Education in America is still unequal in many ways. That is because it is tied to location. The main problem we have here is a President who says he's for education, and does nothing about it. And of course, money is allocated to different areas due to the "type" of population. Schools in suburban areas get more money and help. Schools in urban areas get neglected. It doesn't always depend on the students to want better things for their schools. The parents have to care as well. And if the parents get mad and demand that their school board or School District Superintendent do something, then something will get something done.

And then, sometimes, you have a mayor, like the one in Los Angeles, take the school problem in his own hands to change the climate of education and make it equitable for all.

But for the kids, they have to be encouraged that an education is important and they have to work very hard to obtain it despite peer pressure and prejudice.

black americans do have the choice, in that the materials are there but it takes a lot of self motivation, especially for inner city kids. and it just gets to a point where it's so complicated that not even i can figure it out. the only thing i can say is that i will take myself one day at a time. and anyone who i can help or educate along the way, i'll be more than willing to do so.

I believe Black Americans do have a choice as well. I was lucky to come from a family who stressed academics ever since I can remember. They always put a book in my hand. My mother took my sister and me to the library three times a week and to special programs that promoted reading. My father would take the time to teach my sister and myself the importance of education by enrolling us into programs that would encourage us to study different things. It is partly because of after school and extra-curricular activities that helped me become very well rounded as an adult.

I have also participated in community organizations all of my childhood, teen and adult years. I have tutored, read and mentored kids, spent time with the elderly and served food to the homeless. I've done a great deal of other things. I have always been a proponent of doing what you can to help everyone. And children especially need as much help as they get. They need to see role models that put education in a positive light and need to be encouraged to persevere when they can.

Definitely Mandela. this guy got locked up for years and still they couldn't silence him. that strikes a chord with me. i like that

I also find Nelson Mandela a hero for what he endured during Apartheid and what he had become in South Africa. He stuck to his principles and fought a repressive system anyway he could. As I mentioned earlier, I also value Rosa Parks as well. Miss Rosa is a woman that is phenomenal in many ways. She inspired me to be brave in the face of opposition. There are many other role models for me, but that would take the entire post.

Immigration, i think, is a sticky issue for me. i'm not against immigration, being a child of immigrants myself. at the same time though, (and i'm sorry to keep raising the same ol' tired issue with mom and dad, but that's really the only direct perspective of immigration that i have immediate access to.) both my parents came here almost before the close of the major civil rights era, in 1968 as teens. and the attitudes against black people were practically no different than they were at the beginning of the decade, according to my dad.

Immigration is a complex issue for everyone because it has to do with one's personal feelings concerning the humanity about the problem versus wanting to "shut off the borders".

I bet it was doubly hard for your parents to deal with the pressures that were afforded to racism at the time. And from what you were describing, did they have to deal with the same prejudice from both Blacks and Whites at the time? I give your parents the utmost respect because they had to fight tremendously and courageously to get where they are.

It was very tough for mine coming from the Jim Crow South, where racial harrassment and violence was part and parcel of the behavior in such a place. When they arrived to my hometown, the racial make-up didn't change for a long while until an influx of other races began to reside there. By the time I was a kid, things were more multi-cultural. And I was very grateful for that.

My parents, during the same time, was a young couple who had few friends in a small, mostly white town (at the time) that still carried the same prejudice as it did in the deep South. So, in essence, they faced exactly what they had left. But they were steely, humble and gentle people with a work ethic and a value for education--of which they passed on to my sister and myself.

So imagine being black, almost penniless, with absolutely no possesions but the clothes on your back in a foreign country, with the majority of the people looking down on you as scum. and they had to do it the hard way. and not just them either. plenty of others. for me it's a double edged sword. on one hand i recognize the poverty and misery that many hope immigration can help them escape. and on the other hand, i have to realize that other people have had it worse, yet didn't resort to the "illegal" process. yes, they are suffering. but so are many others. why have special provisions only because they immigrated by way of land/walking/driving/etc? why not try your hand at legal immigration like everone else?

I think there isn't anyone who disagrees that people who migrate to the U.S. should do it legally. I believe that the problem is how to deal with those who have crossed the border and have raised families here without the legalization. My opinion has always been with the legality of the situation. People should do their best to apply legally.

However, the immigration system in the United States is messed up. It should be reworked so that it does not take years for someone to come here. Some people end up waiting for naturalization for fifteen to twenty years. And some are still waiting. And then, there is a pecking order of immigration status by particular countries.

But never should one turn their back on those who are starving and in need of medical care, legal or illegal. That would be inhumane.

(there's more to answer and I'm running out of characters! Part II is in the next post.)






[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]

karby, this is part II of the answer to your wonderful post. Now with some extra characters I can finish answering your fascinating take on this issue.

Originally quoted by karby
Because of the way i grew up, i put up with a lot of racism when i was a child, from both kids and adults. some of it from whites, but 90% of the racism i experienced when i was young came from other black people. when i wanted to identify with that group, i was literally told "You're not one of 'us'. " i didn't want to be identified as 'African" because 'Africans' were "dirty, ugly and disgusting". i couldn't be "African-American" because "you're from Africa, so you're not American", according to one of my teachers. i didn't understand it. so i could never identify with that group. i wasn't born in Nigeria, so i wasn't Nigerian, i didn't wan to be African, and couldn't be "African-American" no matter how hard i tried.

Let me be the first to apologize for what you experienced from other Blacks. It must been have sad to face prejudice from others who looked like you but didn't treat you kindly. I know that blacks have discriminated against each other because of skin color and class, but I didn't not know that it was that bad in terms of national orgin.

However, I grew up in a household that welcomed people from all over the world due to my parents' careers. So, when we met Africans, we were usually happy to meet them. All the Africans that my family and myself met over the years were warm, generous and kind people. And we were usually proud to meet someone else of our race from somewhere else. So, all I can say is that the blacks who treated you badly ought to be ashamed.

Whether they know it or not, you and your family are also part of our people as well. To me, you are "one of us".

I think that Blacks sometimes have to remember that our earliest customs and practices come from Africa. Although some of us were taken to America and no matter how much the "seasoning" process of removing the heritage that once was part of the slaves when they got here, not all of it was forgotten. Some of the blacks here quietly kept their customs and passed it down into their families. And that I found out through my continued work on the family trees on both sides of my family.

We still, in many ways, belong to Africa. We should never forget that.

I'm also very sorry for the prejudices you experienced from whites. Although each of us of color have our own stories and different views of prejudice of this kind, I think that it must have been terrible to get it from both ends. But in that kind of circumstance, I think that you have developed into a resilient and strong young woman who can read people with more astuteness than the rest of us. That is a very important gift to have when reading the sincerity and politeness of people from all colors and walks of life. Use it well as you go out into the world. It will serve you rather superbly.

Iconsider myself an "African Black" because after all i've experienced, these were the only people that would accept me. my parents, my relatives, their relatives, etc. alll accepted me. and the deeprer i dug, the more i saw that i had more in tune with them than i had with my own peers. so i distanced myself from my peers even more.

That is fair. The people who accepted you found a commonality that you found welcoming. That is natural. In a climate that one faces hostility, often you have to go to those who will treat you with the respect, love and acceptance that you deserve.

But at the same time as you feel comforted by your loved ones, sometimes you have to give people a chance. I have faced all sorts of crap racially in many ways. But, I still have an open mind. I am still curious and willing to learn about others even when sometimes it doesn't always work out. It's part and parcel of trying to gain knowledge about the world. Even on this thread, my principles about this has been tested quite a lot. But, what is true in my heart is the fact that I still have to give people the benefit of the doubt no matter what anyone else thinks.

I stated in an earlier post that i had rejected hip-hop/"cool" culture because of the way that they portray different shades of black women. well, it had actually gotten to a point where i had just cut mainstream out all together. i still don't watch tv. i'd rather sit outside in the middle of nature than go shopping. i'm an avid video gamer. i love math. my music tastes just fly all over the place. i'd much rather be associated with africans because they seemed to be more accepting of me to lend me their culture. it took me a while, but i accepted them back. and by the time it had gotten to a point where i could actually have another black person not give me a dirty look or mean words because of my ethnicity, i guess it was already too late, as i had already made up my mind.

Hip/Hop is an artform that appeals to some, but not all people. My insertion into Hip/Hop is that it provides a sort of activism against the system. Some, but not all, rappers use their songs as a statement of how things are, especially when it has to do with politics and society. Dr. Dre and Ice Cube are examples who have used their music sometimes politically. Ice Cube was one of the producers of the FX channel show, "Black/White" (which should be watched by everyone if it ever comes out on DVD.).

In the end, it is okay that you made up your mind. You know what you want out of life. And you do the things that make you happy. We can't spend our lives trying to please others. We spend our time around people who are fond of us. We support things we feel strongly about. We identify with people who make us feel comfortable, honored and welcomed.

The only thing that is different between us is that I think we have to learn about others to get along with them. Even in the most uncomfortable situations (and I've been in many), I was able to endure because of what I've learned about others. People grow and change every day. Heck, even my time at ATS has changed me. It doesn't mean I do not love my family any less or hate my friends in the "real world" because of what I've done here.

This is a part of my learning experience. And anything I can learn about others, I have to take advantage of it despite the fact that sometimes it will hurt. Other times, they make me very elated to find out certain things.

But in the end, you become better for it.






[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I can't tell if you are playing dumb, or you really don't get what I'm saying. I can type slower, if that would help...

Let's put it in context, shall we?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
OTOH, what were you implying?

Originally posted by jsobecky
I think it's pretty clear. You don't speak for everyone. He was not everybody's idea of an American hero.

Clear enough?

No. If you're trying to say something, come right out and say it. Jeez...

It's obvious that you were resorting to baiting.

And you're being naive by believing that what comes from a man's mouth is the truth.

That's two insulting, unneccesary and, most importantly, off-topic comments in one message.

It's not an insult; it's a fact. It would apply to anyone who would accept another's word without question. Except for a child they understandably believe everything their parents tell them. You took it as an insult.

"Play the victim?" You are too much... really. No wonder Ceci thinks you're prejudiced. A black woman calls you out for your bad behavior, and I'm "playing the victim"?

Ahh... now I see your agenda.

For someone who's not a mod, you spend a lot of time moderating the discussion.

Not actually, but I will respond when you try one of your drive-by insults.

Why don't we leave that to the actual moderators?

My intent is not to incite drive-by insults, but to put an end to them. I'm tired of them, and the only way to stop them is to challenge them every time they show up. The mods have managed to stop the overly aggressive activity, but they can't be here all the time.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

from jso
donwhite's assertion implies that skin color *always* plays a difference.

And then you claim that employers decide who will benefit the company the most, objectively picking the employee most likely to produce the most/highest quality widgets in the shortest time.

So, yes, that statement directly contrasts with what you said a few pages ago. Would you care to explain the change?

Their is no change. As I stated before, both cases are true in the real world. In a perfect world, employees would be chosen on the basis of merit every time. But that is not the reality, is it? Affirmative Action said we can't do that anymore.
Once again, you seem to be grasping at straws, having failed to make your points regarding this and "scholarly research". It's very tiresome to re-state the obvious, and to hear you nitpick over a word just to appear that you have won some perceived battle, so I'm going to leave you to your devices until there is a debate with some substance.

To me, you are "one of us".

What Ceci? What is "one of us"??

Homo Sapien? People? Citizen?

Ceci,

Are not labels such as that the reason a thread like this is necessary? Is there any chance racism can be eradicated in our lifetime as long as there is an us and a them?

Labels; Pasting something on something else to enhance our ability to recognize it.
Well if it is Bipedal, erect, with opposable thumbs and cognitive reasoning skills, I can assume it is a human being. Do I then further separate this by color? Is this not completely defeating the purpose of a wonderful debate such as this?

Third line down on the Word Web Dictionary defines label as "Pronounce judgment on."

Semper

I was responding to karby's comment that the African-Americans that she knew in D.C. did not consider her a part of the Black Community. I wanted her to know that not all Blacks are like that.

I replied to her in kinship. I consider her as part of the Black Community. She is a part of my people.

It has nothing to do with "labels". Don't you feel a sort of kinship with others in your work, your past experience in the military as well as with people in your own state?

Now is it against the law to feel kinship with another person?


[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Not against the law ceci...

Come on now..

I was just commenting on the fact that as long as we perceive a difference and continue to separate into us and them, we can't really make any progress.

It just surprised me is all, that you said that. Don't get your hackles all up!!! You know I'm not going to get into the "Infighting" that is so popular here, I was just making an observation...

Semper

Semper, I know you were making an observation. I wasn't saying it in meanness. And if you thought so, I'm very sorry.

It's just that people have a way to referring to one another. And karby deserves to know that somewhere out there that Blacks exist who do accept her and find the prejudice she experienced wrong.

I would do the same for anyone, despite the fact that some might not believe me.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]

I believe you Ceci.

You have always struck me as the nurturing kind....

I'm also sorry I mistook the meaning..

Thank you

Semper

That's quite all right. You have a right to ask. You deserve to get an answer.

And you're very welcome.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Why is it when some whites feel as if they are against the wall...
...
Can they [blacks] be a little "angry" or "offended" at the comments made by whites without it being a total breakdown of the Black's personality?

This answers any questions I might ever want answered by you. These few sentences say SO much more than your huge, long, explanatory posts. Thanks.

It reminds me of - I think it was Eddie Murphy in a SNL skit - where he walks up to the front desk of a hotel and they ask him a question about his bag. And he replies, "What? Can't a black man have a suitcase"???

It's all about color. The reason for any altercation is "because I'm black".

You think any statement, question or observation made about you must be because you're black. It's not true. People make their judgements of you based on your behavior, your words, your actions. You think it matters to others here that you're black, but it doesn't. But it's a nice comfy little place for you to go hide whenever any white person makes a negative assessment of you. That way you can tell yourself that whatever people are saying isn't really true. You don't have to examine their assessment for any truth because you tell yourself that it's all because you're black and they're white. You can ignore what they say instead of considering that there may be some truth in their assessments.

Whenever any white person asks you a simple question like "What do you want"?, all of a sudden, they're accusing you of making demands, because they're white and you're black...

That's BS!

These assessments of your personality have nothing to do with the pigment in your skin. Nothing! And everything to do with documented racial (and other) vitriolic, unreasonable insults on your part. Anything that happens that makes you uncomfortable, you attribute to race. "The white people just don't like an angry black person."

Again, BS! I don't really care of you're angry or not. I'm not at all threatened by some words on a computer screen. I sometimes wish I knew what you REALLY felt. But I have given up hope of ever knowing that.

So please think before you ever apply any behaviorial analysis on anyone of us.

Anyone of "whom"? Any black people? Ceci, it's clear that you think of people in terms of "us" and "them" (people of color and white people). Not everyone does though. And you can fool some people, but not all.

And believe me, in this thread, there are a lot of assessments of personality that need to be made. I can think of a few borderline cases of Narcissistic Personality Disorder off the top of my head right now. Well, then again, severe.

Heaven forbid that someone should say that you're passive/aggressive, but you can turn around and call someone narcissistic! The double standards under which you operate are astounding! You lose all credibility when you don't practice what you preach.

Originally posted by ceci2006
That is why I apologized in advance because I knew that it might be offensive ...

Usually, if you have to apologize in advance, it's a sign that you might want to check with the other person and see if they really meant what you thought they meant. I know how "sincere" your apologies to me have been. And that's how I measure the sincerity of all your apologies. I don't believe you are sincere when you apologize because you turn right around and insult again and again, using the same insults you "apologized" for...

It is just unfortunate that others do not share your ability to speak to people with respect and kindness and that is sad.

Yes, it certainly is. OMS is very respectful and kind. Perhaps it's time for you to come down from the podium and take a lesson.

HH - Yes, still friends, of course. We have easily and gracefully gotten over any 'bumps' we may have had here and I hold you in the highest esteem, as always. I'll see you around.

It's not based on character, BH. It is definitely based on color. And I'm sorry to say, it happens frequently. There are always titles thrust upon black people by some whites when blacks express dissent against the system. The first thing they do is think that you're angry and will turn violent. Then, they ask you to calm down. Then the second thing they do is say you have a behavioral issue. The third thing is that they always say that you're a victim and you are "screaming about race".

And when some blacks become mad or express offense at what was done or said, the white person says, "Now, don't get angry." Now that is the most stupidest, but derogatory things that always happens. It is as if to say that the "good black" has to hold all their emotions in like the repressed demeanor of some whites who prescribe to the "dominant culture". A "bad black" gets angry and is not able to contain their emotions.

HH is right. You are only one white woman, by all due respect. You have even said that not all white people think like yourself. So, you cannot speak for them. And you can't mock me about what terminology I use and what I shouldn't.

It's happened to HH and myself. And yes, it happens to blacks even in the media and daily life. It is plain as day. Some whites can't stay away from playing the armchair psychologist. Sorry, but it is true. Don't try to explain this away.

Don't take color out of this. Would you please answer the question as it is?

And by all due respect, I don't ever think you would have used words such as "tone" and "getting a little tense" with anyone else. It is a color thing. It falls under the same lines as "it's getting a little heated" when ever there's a little exchange racially on these controversial subjects.

And I don't think it is your place to make jokes about this. Respectfully, any one of us, means what it says: "any one of us of any race". So in the spirit of not misconstruing words, please do not do it to mine.

I did not name anyone who has the traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I just said that I could name some others in this thread with the affliction off the top of my head. You need to seriously get my words right, since you are such a stickler for that.

And no, I have not lost credibility. But if that's your stigma, so be it.

And yes, I know the difference between a general personality assessment and one based on color. And these are instances based on color. It doesn't always happen. But continue with the stigmas. I shrug and continue to go on.

But, it is a race-based question, that deserves a race-based answer.

And just because you gave an answer does not mean it is any better than another one. It just doesn't truly answer the question. It is mediocre at best.

And it's about time you come to the podium and stop your "finger-wagging". That is yet another trait that some white people seem to have explicitly and will not stop using it against people of color. Why is that?



[edit on 15-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by jsobecky
In a perfect world, employees would be chosen on the basis of merit every time. But that is not the reality, is it? Affirmative Action said we can't do that anymore.

Oh, so, prior to affirmative action, this was a meritocracy? Those white men must have been terribly talented, to beat everyone else in a meritocracy. Not.

I see your agenda now. We're done.

Dear everybody:

I just really wanted to apologize for that whole back-and-forth between me and JSO. It's against my character. I actually thought we were debating real issues, but I got mired in BS.

So, again, sorry for taking up so much space.

HH