"What Freedoms Have We Lost?" The Way To Answer It Yourself (OP/ED)

I personally don't believe I have lost any freedoms or rights since the Bush Administration took over. There are; however, certain aspects of the Patriot Act that somewhat disturb me. I think the potential for abuse probably outweighs any demonstrable public good when it comes to preventing a person from telling anyone (except their attorney) that they or some of their acquaintances are under investigation by the federal government. I think creating giant databases containing information about ordinary American citizens is wrong and far more likely to be misused that used effectively to combat terrorism. I think it is fundamentally wrong to allow the federal government to designate someone as a suspected terrorist without ever having to say why they believe such to be the case. Finally, I think the enhanced sentencing provision (for using cryptography) is wrong.

Now those are just my personal opinions and nothing more. I may have included something in the above that doesn't bother you in the slightest, or more likely have not included something that you think should be there. I am open to any reasoned argument about my opinion. I may not change my opinion just because someone pens an impassioned plea for or against any of the above, but I will consider it/them carefully.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by Astronomer70
I personally don't believe I have lost any freedoms or rights since the Bush Administration took over. There are; however, certain aspects of the Patriot Act that somewhat disturb me. I think the potential for abuse probably outweighs any demonstrable public good when it comes to preventing a person from telling anyone (except their attorney) that they or some of their acquaintances are under investigation by the federal government. I think creating giant databases containing information about ordinary American citizens is wrong and far more likely to be misused that used effectively to combat terrorism. I think it is fundamentally wrong to allow the federal government to designate someone as a suspected terrorist without ever having to say why they believe such to be the case. Finally, I think the enhanced sentencing provision (for using cryptography) is wrong.

Now those are just my personal opinions and nothing more. I may have included something in the above that doesn't bother you in the slightest, or more likely have not included something that you think should be there. I am open to any reasoned argument about my opinion. I may not change my opinion just because someone pens an impassioned plea for or against any of the above, but I will consider them carefully.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

well the thing is it didn't just start now. Its been happening much before bush. Bush is just taking it farther, just like a good deal of presidents did before him. Its not just what bush is doing that bothers me, its everything that has happened in history. it didn't all just happen in the past 5 years.

You are absolutely correct grimreaper, it didn't just start within the past 5 years. There has been a fairly steady aggregation of power under the federal government for many, many years. The thing is, that's what the people seem to want. States rights are becomming fewer and fewer over time while the accumulation of power by the federal government is becomming overwhelming. The fundamental restrictions on the powers of the federal government, which are stated very clearly in the Constitution, have been effectively bypassed or ignored. We are, again, in my opinion, slowly edging our way into a form of socialism, or as I call it, a nanny state.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by Astronomer70
You are absolutely correct grimreaper, it didn't just start within the past 5 years. There has been a fairly steady aggregation of power under the federal government for many, many years. The thing is, that's what the people seem to want. States rights are becomming fewer and fewer over time while the accumulation of power by the federal government is becomming overwhelming. The fundamental restrictions of the powers of the federal government, which are stated very clearly in the Constitution, have been effectively bypassed or ignored.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

Actually I think JimC made it quite clear that states law are getting very strict as well. You saw the list he made. Its the fact people don't want to be reposnsible. They want to be treated like little children.

They don't want to handle their own money, let the government do it. They don't want to handle business corruption, let the government do it. They keep shoveling off responsbility to the government. A phrase I remember is "With Power comes Responsobility" but in truth they go hand in hand. "With Responsibility comes Power" The more responsibility the government has, the more powerful it becomes over its people.

Its a direct connection, and it is one that could turn out quite dangerous. As you give this government the responsiblities you had, you also give them the power you had. As they say "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The more power we give them, the more corrupt they will become. How much of our responsibilities are we going to give them. All people should be responsibile for themselves whenever humanly possible. The power must stay in the peoples hands whenever it can.

Grimreaper while I agree, in principal, with what you last posted--namely that people should take responsibility for themselves and that as much power as possible should be retained by the people, the people have to accept that power and act upon it. That's not what I see happening across America. At seemingly every opportunity the people duck responsibility and insist that the feds take it. Then they bitch about it when they do.

Many, many years ago, when I worked for the government, we had a saying that I believe to be apt even today: You think you've got problems now--just wait until the government solves them for you.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Grimreaper while I agree, in principal, with what you last posted--namely that people should take responsibility for themselves and that as much power as possible should be retained by the people, the people have to accept that power and act upon it. That's not what I see happening across America. At seemingly every opportunity the people duck responsibility and insist that the feds take it. Then they bitch about it when they do.

Many, many years ago, when I worked for the government, we had a saying that I believe to be apt even today: You think you've got problems now--just wait until the government solves them for you.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

Well yes thats what they are doing. It is the true destruction of our nation, regardless of what zenlover said (hahahaha). Passing off responsibilities is passing off your power. When you become powerless, you will know why.

haha I like that saying.

WHOA little boy. You're just trying to push my buttons. I'm the one that SAID the people are passing it to the FEDS and then crying about it later. Anyone can read my posts in the other thread, Grim and see that I was saying exactly what Astronomer was attempting to say.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28
WHOA little boy. You're just trying to push my buttons. I'm the one that SAID the people are passing it to the FEDS and then crying about it later. Anyone can read my posts, Grim and see that I was saying exactly what Astronomer was attempting to say.

yea I doubt that.

Originally posted by zenlover28
it's the selfishness and utter disregard for everything this country stands for that you are promoting here (and i won't leave out the other extreme side), that will be the true downfall of this society.

some how that hardly sounds like what you were saying. You were trying to explain to me how I was wrong, not how people are passing power to the FEDs. I never once said that the FEDs don't have power and that people haven't been giving them power. You made it out as though I was wrong. You said I don't know what my rights are, then refuse to explain yourself.

Grim, let's just say that I have zero respect for you now. You know good and well what I said in the other thread about this. However, you suggested taking away our rights. You didn't realize it. I called you on it. From the beginning of this you have twisted everything i've said around because it didn't fit with your agenda. I agreed with you on points, but disagree on points. You don't listen. You don't want to listen. And, that's fine. You just keep calling the shots and telling me how things are when I know good and well that's not how things go. You're full of misinformation. You got called on it. That's that.

Later.

and you still haven't told me any of the actual rights I advocated taking away. You listed rights that give minorities unfavor advantages. Thats not a right. You gave "rights" so that people wouldn't be offended. You don't have the right to not be offended. You don't have the right to be employeed just because there aren't enough miniorities on the job.

You said free speech, where did I even advocate taking away free speech? I said you aren't using free speech enough.WOW. Maybe I could listen to you a bit better if you actually explained yourself. its not going to happen like "grim, you advocated taking away rights" then my response is "o ok, sorry Im wrong" no, you prove it.

YOU have not proved anything. Keep accusing me of stuff without anything to back it up though, it just helps people realize what your doing. Show us where I advocated TAKING away rights.

Good luck, Grim. Thank you for enlightening me on our Liberties and Rights.

Conversation over.

Originally posted by zenlover28

Good luck, Grim. Thank you for enlightening me on our Liberties and Rights.

Conversation over.

figures.


to everyone else:

anyway, Like I said in my initial post people, get out there and use those rights. Everything in that bill of rights, go out and exercise them. buy your gun, practice your religion to the full extent. If you don't like something the government is doing, protest and list your grievences. If they don't respond protest via boycott and such, exercise your rights. Get out there and use them, thats the only way to true make sure your freedom and rights aren't being eroded.

Shame about this recent little pissing match. This was actually a good point and original intent.

Let me say this, having been an avid exerciser of "my rights" in the past (PB = Pre Bush) I can tell you this. Our rights have been a joke for a long time regardless of the current adininstration. Is it getting worse? YES!

However, I am more inclined to think it is due to exactly what Grim is alluding to. Most people have no clue what "their rights" entail, have never exercised them, and therefore over time they are erroded. It doesn't matter who is in charge, "they" know we don't know and "they" take advantage of it as much as "they" can.