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"What Freedoms Have We Lost?" The Way To Answer It Yourself (OP/ED)

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posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797
You don't have to worry until you start losing rights. When you start losing rights, your freedoms are coming next. The thing is hardly anyone uses those rights anymore, so how do we know we are losing them? Exercise them and you will find out how much of your rights have been lost.


Hmmm...in your other Op/Ed you're basically wanting to abolish rights, Grim. And you don't even realize it.




posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by zenlover28
Hmmm...in your other Op/Ed you're basically wanting to abolish rights, Grim. And you don't even realize it.


what rights? I really want you to show me what rights Im wanting to abolish. I see none. Tell me what I want to abolish.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:44 PM
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Hmmm...it sounds like basically all of them. I mean you are stating that we should just be able to do what we want to without inflicting harm upon someone else right? I think you're leaving us with the right to vote though. That is of course until we're conquered and taken over by a real dictatorship because we didn't value our rights enough to cherish the fact that we have it made in this country.

Civil liberties...the freedoms we enjoy...such things as freedom of speech (but not all speech is protected), freedom of religion, separation of church and state, freedom of the press, right to privacy (in a physical sense, ie birth control). These need protection from the government.

Civil rights...such things as nondiscrimination in employment and education, etc., the right to vote...there are others. These are protected by the government as our status as citizens.

Just a little FYI there.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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Go get youself a t-shirt or a bumper sticker that says "Impeach Bush", or "Bush is a Warmonger" and wear it in lets say Washington.. LOL! I really don't think anyone would like the outcome. Nuff said.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by maximusX]

[edit on 6-7-2006 by maximusX]



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by zenlover28
Hmmm...it sounds like basically all of them. I mean you are stating that we should just be able to do what we want to without inflicting harm upon someone else right? I think you're leaving us with the right to vote though. That is of course until we're conquered and taken over by a real dictatorship because we didn't value our rights enough to cherish the fact that we have it made in this country.


hmmm you really haven't gotten anything I have said have you? Read the bill of rights. Now after reading that, anything else goes. That affords you a hell of alot of right already. Why should their be any laws after that?



Civil liberties...the freedoms we enjoy...such things as freedom of speech (but not all speech is protected), freedom of religion, separation of church and state, freedom of the press, right to privacy (in a physical sense, ie birth control). These need protection from the government.


In the bill of rights, therefor no I am not. there is no right to privacy unless its your personal property. How can you protect your rights FROM the government? The reason the government was created in the first place was to protect those rights. If they aren't protecting those rights then its time to abolish that government. They are there solely to protect the rights. I don't know where you are getting the idea that I am advocating freedom of speech, religion seperation of church and state, freedom of press, etc. to be taken away but my patience is starting to wear a bit thin because I don't understand how you could possibly interpret it that way. I am saying exercise these same rights you are saying I am advocating taking away so that you can protect your freedom.

thats what I have been says since square one. You don't have a right to not be offended. People are going to offend you in life, thats life. You here it, you ignore it and you move on.



Civil rights...such things as nondiscrimination in employment and education, etc., the right to vote...there are others. These are protected by the government as our status as citizens.


private employment is free to hire whoever it likes. Government cannot, because it is public facilities. If a guy owns a business and he doesn't want to hire a white person, fine by me. I wouldn't want to work for a racist anyway so that just makes it that much easier for me. Then I can know that he is a racist so the I can stop supporting business for him.

If its a public school then no it shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. A private school is free to say no to whoever they want. Thats life. I don't see why you want to forcefully associate yourself with racists. Is it like a "yea thats right in your face" thing, because I just can't under why you would want to force a racist to associate with you. The right to vote is provided to all american citizens. You are an american citizen right? Well then you will have nothing to worry about. The government is not allowed to discriminate. private business can though. Voting has to do with the government, therefor no discrimination.


If you can't handle the fact that your going to be offended and people are going to be ignorant in life then I don't know what to tell you. For some of us, we can handle it when a person calls us a racist name. You don't have the right to stop your feelings from being hurt.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:05 PM
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Grim, you are full of misinformation. I'm not the one who doesn't get it. I'm leaving it at that. Take care!

Edited to add: Initially you wanted to do away with the amendments, ya know. Just wanted you to know that it didn't slip by me.


[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:45 PM
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Well said, TrueAmerican!

and to add to your list, we have lost the right to travel to places like New York City and take pictures of the bridges and buildings there.

We have lost the right to be in a public place, commiting no crime or act of violence, and not be required to prove our 'papers are in order'.

Just a couple off the top of my head...



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by zenlover28
Grim, you are full of misinformation. I'm not the one who doesn't get it. I'm leaving it at that. Take care!

Edited to add: Initially you wanted to do away with the amendments, ya know. Just wanted you to know that it didn't slip by me.


[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]


where did I say that? I said laws past within the last 100 years. Within the last 100 years we also handed our currency over to a private organization charging us interest of money when we could make it for free. They made income tax laws which are unconstitutional. They have mad a great deal of laws within the last 100 years which were no needed.

Im sick and tired of people giving the government more power because they are either too irresponsible, too lazy, or too sensitive to deal with life. Some people want their feelings to be protected by law like being offended should be illegal. Some people want to force racists to associate with them.

If they are not taking away those bill of rights from you, what right do you have to say what right or wrong is? You may see it as wrong to call people racist names, hey I think its wrong as well, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Morality and sensibility are not things to base laws on. Is some one calling you a racist name or denying you a job at their private business taking away your rights? No you have every right to boycott. You have every right to ignore the racist person or say something back. If some one gets violent, they are going to be seeing the police, plain and simple.

I no where said get rid of all the amendments though. I said revert back to our foundations.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 10:24 PM
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But as far as wage workers go, they could do alot of damage. Every person being paid wages has a great deal of power just by not attenting work in an organized way.


REPLY: The only power you have is the "power" to not make as much money that pay period, and that holds true even if you work for yourself.


We the people need to make sure they remember we are the threat to them, not they are the threat to us.


REPLY: This is true to some extent, but the only "true power" we have is afforded us by the 2nd ammendment.


we decide what is dangerous. The government isn't in charge of our safety to begin with.


REPLY: Ummmm, no, not true. Also, to make mention of Americas foundation, then quote what Kennedy said is a bit disengenuous. One also has to know of what he was speaking when he made that quote.


When you are a large group protesting, you hold complete control. You control the government, you control business, you control your nation.


REPLY: Not hardly. The recent rallys by the wetbacks and foreign workers didn't do much at all, and that involved a rather large group. It was barely a hiccup in the local or national economy; like it never happened.


They don't get to make new rules to decide what is best for us.


REPLY: I fully realize that most of the current books used in schools are replete with errors and re-writing of history, and that the public schools are complete failures, but there's just no reason to be that wrong.


Do you think Washington had Ben Franklin print the battle plans to be handed out to every citizen of the colony.


REPLY: Good thing there was no New York Times back then. 8^)


This government was made to protect our rights, and they are not doing that.


REPLY: You haven't lost any rights; how many times does it take for it to sink in; 'nor have you last any freedoms.


To say the people don't deserve to unclassify whatever documents they want is stupid.


REPLY: Perhaps you should quit while you're ahead! We're back to the Bill of Rights, again, and it says nothing about people getting what they feel they "deserve". It's thoughts like you just wrote is exactly WHY we can't and shouldn't be privy to such information.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 10:34 PM
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Go get youself a t-shirt or a bumper sticker that says "Impeach Bush", or "Bush is a Warmonger" and wear it in lets say Washington.....


REPLY: Like no-one is doing that already?


LOL! I really don't think anyone would like the outcome. Nuff said.


REPLY: As long as you're not carrying a gun, nothing would happen; you said nothing.


You don't have a right to not be offended.


REPLY: That's the most sense you've made in all of your posts, and you are absolutely correct. The one thing, however, is the whole "hate speech" thing, started during the last admin, and it's a dangerous concept.


The government is not allowed to discriminate. private business can though.


REPLY: You truly don't have a clue, do you?



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 10:38 PM
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Go get youself a t-shirt or a bumper sticker that says "Impeach Bush", or "Bush is a Warmonger" and wear it in lets say Washington.....


REPLY: Like no-one is doing that already?


LOL! I really don't think anyone would like the outcome. Nuff said.


REPLY: As long as you're not carrying a gun, nothing would happen; you said nothing.


You don't have a right to not be offended.


REPLY: That's the most sense you've made in all of your posts, and you are absolutely correct. The one thing, however, is the whole "hate speech" thing, started during the last admin, and it's a dangerous concept.


The government is not allowed to discriminate. private business can though.


REPLY: You truly don't have a clue, do you?


Within the last 100 years we also handed our currency over to a private organization charging us interest of money when we could make it for free.


REPLY: Nothing is "free," even making money, but you are correct about the rest.


They made income tax laws which are unconstitutional. They have mad a great deal of laws within the last 100 years which were no needed.


REPLY: Again, true; but you're still mixed up on some things.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by zappafan1
REPLY: You truly don't have a clue, do you?


I am talking Ideally. The government is supported by everyone thus it should serve everyone the same. Private business is private. What right do you have to tell them anything? They should be able to do whatever they want. Refuse to hire whoever for whatever reasons. Refuse to serve whoever for whatever reasons.



REPLY: Nothing is "free," even making money, but you are correct about the rest.


what I mean is, to make a dollar you have to back it with something worth a dollar. The FRB doesn't have to back the money and it can charge interest. what would cost the government a dollar to make, it costs the government a dollar + interest to be made by FRB.



REPLY: Again, true; but you're still mixed up on some things.


You probably meant the income tax part, and I stand by that. the IRS defined federal income tax as a direct tax, even though by constitutional law it must be an indirect tax.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by grimreaper797]



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 08:19 AM
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I'm going to say this gently. You don't know what the heck you're talking about, Grim. You have no clue that YOU and people like you are the biggest threat to our rights. Once you figure that out, then you'll see just how friggin lucky you are to live here. And, while things in our government certainly need a good shaking up and modification, it's the selfishness and utter disregard for everything this country stands for that you are promoting here (and i won't leave out the other extreme side), that will be the true downfall of this society.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797
So Jim what you are proposing is that there are more problems then just the ones we currently acknowledge. I read your post and saw problems amoung problems that should never be to begin with. Was that your intent?


We have more problems than most people can even think of. The majority of people here are so concerned with what the Federal Government is doing that they forget to look at the governments that affect their lives the most. What the Federal government is doing is nothing compaired to what your State and local governments are doing. With the exception of eminant domain I have seen nothing posted about these governments. Look at laws like curfews, zoning and traffic laws. People are going nuts about the NSA tracking phone logs, but I have never seen a post about curfews. Think about this. A curfew law gives the Police the right to stop anyone who looks like they are under 18 just because they are out after a certain hour. Once you are stopped YOU have to prove that you are allowed to be out. I have been stopped under the guise of breaking curfew and I'm 40 years old!

Look at zoning laws. The original purpose was to protect residential neighborhoods from having industrial and commercial developements making the area unlivable. Zoning laws now have been used for everything from personal revenge to preventing certain types of businesses from opening in the area. There is a township in Western Pennsylvania where the residents voted in favor of a referrendum to allow alcoholic beverages to be sold in the township. At the time the township government was against this. They retaliated by passing a zoning law that allowed for these businesses to be established in only on a certain piece of property. The township then bought that property. It took 4 years after the referrendum was passed to change the zoning and this only happened because one of the township commissioners was killed in a car accident.

Look at traffic laws. Originally meant for safety now they are huge revenue generators for local governments and insurance companies. I drive a section of road every day that passes through a park. The speed limit is 35 miles per hour untill you get near the park. There is a sign that says "End 35 mph", 200 yards further there is a sign that says "Start 25 mph". Once you are past the park the sign says "End 25 mph" then 200 yards further is a sign saying "Start 35 mph". Every day the police have a car stopped between these signs. Pennsylvania law states that the speed limit on an unposted road is considered to be 55 mph, the section between the signs is legally unposted, but if you are going faster than 25 mph you will be stopped and cited. If you choose a hearing the ticket will be thrown out. One thing though, the officer will always write the ticket for 5 mph over the speed limit and the township will waive the court costs and the license points if you just pay the ticket. The fine is always $45. They are counting on people not wanting to take time off work just to save $45. Less than 5% of the people go to court. One of the local newspapers estimates that the township gets about $500,000 per year from tickets written in just this one location.

How do they get away with this? It is really pretty simple, a friend of mine is a police officer for this township and he gave a simple explaination. This township has a couple of the main commuter routes to the city of Pittsburgh pass through it. The area I referred to is near the township line. He told me that they are under orders to only stop cars coming into the township in the morning and cars leaving the township in the evening. The purpose of this is simple. The majority of people stopped are not residents of the township! The ones who are residents are usually let off with a warning. The purpose behind traffic laws are no longer safety, but a source of revenue for local governments. Some of these governments actually contract private companies to enforce these laws for a share of the profits. Where do you think red light cameras come from?



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 09:31 AM
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First step is to COLLECT ALL OF THE INFORMATION on the citizenry.

Phone records, Internet usage logs, financial transactions, travel iteneraries, school records, police records, credit reports and finally medical/DNA ALL ROLLED into ONE. They type in your name and BAM. INSTANT "PROFILE".

They are doing that now claiming "National Security" and "Patriot Act".

second step is "enforcement".

You will not/do not "see" much loss today, it is the data warehouse they are building for the FUTURE that should scare you.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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Private business is private. What right do you have to tell them anything? They should be able to do whatever they want. Refuse to hire whoever for whatever reasons. Refuse to serve whoever for whatever reasons.


REPLY: That is true to some extent, but there are always special interest groups, average citizens like you, who use government to make things the way they think it should be. Civil rights laws are a good example, and some of them are a good thing.


what I mean is, to make a dollar you have to back it with something worth a dollar. The FRB doesn't have to back the money and it can charge interest. what would cost the government a dollar to make, it costs the government a dollar + interest to be made by FRB.


REPLY: I agree, and we had two presidents in history that got rid of the FRB; I wish it would happen again, but it is not likely.
It costs the FRB about 9 cents to make a paper bill, no matter what denomination. Then they "sell" it to the government at face value; the "interest" is built in.



the IRS defined federal income tax as a direct tax, even though by constitutional law it must be an indirect tax.


REPLY: Again, true. The IRS has been operating illegally since it's inception, which is why they have their own court system.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by zenlover28
I'm going to say this gently. You don't know what the heck you're talking about, Grim. You have no clue that YOU and people like you are the biggest threat to our rights. Once you figure that out, then you'll see just how friggin lucky you are to live here. And, while things in our government certainly need a good shaking up and modification, it's the selfishness and utter disregard for everything this country stands for that you are promoting here (and i won't leave out the other extreme side), that will be the true downfall of this society.


I know you mean good but are you saying DONT exercise your rights? I am talking my personal opinion before about what I want or don't want. I in no way said thats what everyone should want. I said thats what it was suppose to be. Ultimately people will decide what they want. All I said to DO was exercise the rights they have.

practice freedom of speech to the full extent.
buy a gun.
protest as a group.
Be able to back that protest up via boycotts and such.

If you are saying that is the downfall to society, your wrong. Thats the down to dictatorship. But what am I promoting here. I really want to know how you are interpreting this. What am I promoting??

Its one thing to not know what I am talking about, its another thing for YOU to not know what I am talking about.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797

I know you mean good but are you saying DONT exercise your rights?


You don't even know what your rights are, Grim so how in the world would you even know if you're exercising them or anyone else for that matter? And where in the world did I ever mention not exercising rights? You're the one whose attempting to do that for me.


If you are saying that is the downfall to society, your wrong. Thats the down to dictatorship. But what am I promoting here. I really want to know how you are interpreting this. What am I promoting??


Look Grim, go to college. Get an education, you have that right, you know? Perhaps take some political government classes and then come back here and tell me what my rights are, what my liberties are and see if you get a pretty good idea of what it is that you are promoting.

And furthermore how could I or anyone know what you're talking about? You switch what you're talking about everytime I call you out on something.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by zenlover28
You don't even know what your rights are, Grim so how in the world would you even know if you're exercising them or anyone else for that matter? And where in the world did I ever mention not exercising rights? You're the one whose attempting to do that for me.


Its starting to sound like you don't know what a right is. There is a difference between a right and freedom.



Look Grim, go to college. Get an education, you have that right, you know? Perhaps take some political government classes and then come back here and tell me what my rights are, what my liberties are and see if you get a pretty good idea of what it is that you are promoting.

And furthermore how could I or anyone know what you're talking about? You switch what you're talking about everytime I call you out on something.


Furthering my reasoning that you have no idea what a right is. If I choose to go to college that is my choice. A right is something EVERYONE is afforded, in order to protect their freedom. I have the freedom to choose if I want to go to college, that is a freedom. I don't have the right to go to college. I have the RIGHT to own a gun. Nobody can deny me that. People can deny me from college. There is a difference. I am not entitled to a college education because I was simply born.

And no I don't switch up, you just make no clear points on anything. You still didn't explain how I am promoting "the selfishness and utter disregard for everything this country stands for" I am waiting for you to explain that.

You want to make accussations, why don't you explain them.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 02:07 PM
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I'm still going to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. Because you don't.

Adding just so you know: You have a choice to go vote. It doesn't make it any less of a right. Voting is not a civil liberty (freedom)...voting is a civil right. As far as education...it's not a civil liberty (freedom). It's a right and can be argued to be more of a priviledge than even a right, but your right to an education w/out discrimination on race, familial status, etc is protected and is viewed as a right. Just another FYI.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by zenlover28]



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