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Posted by Access Denied
The flight on June 4th recorded in Dr. Crary’s journal was not a “MOGUL” flight therefore it can’t be Flight 4.
This weak semantic argument is the one most commonly used to try and discredit the AF report. There was a flight on June 4th and it’s the only flight recorded in Dr. Crary’s journal between Flight 3 and 5. All balloon flights done during Project MOGUL were numbered sequentially therefore the flight on June 4th is “MOGUL” Flight 4.
Jun 4 Wed. Out to Tularosa Range and fired charges between 00 and 06 this am. No balloon flights again on account of clouds. Flew regular sono buoy up in cluster of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on plane. Out with Thompson pm. Shot charges from 1800 to 2400.
(Substitute “no balloon flights again” with “no constant level balloon flights again” in the second sentence if you still don’t get it.)
Good point. I think the simple explanation is it’s all second hand. The only people we know for a fact had direct contact with the material (like the pilot) all describe the material as consistent with the balloon/radar target explanation.
Originally posted by Hal9000
Roswell is an intriguing case and regardless of your beliefs, is not a waste of time for people to research, and it shouldn’t be simply brushed aside. It is a piece of our history.
Originally posted by Access Denied
Right. There was no cover.
The Air Force's cover story on the Roswell incident.
* It was a weather balloon.
Fact: In 1994, the Air Force admitted it wasn't a weather balloon. Colonel Dubose and Marcel, who posed with the debris, have confirmed the debris is not what was recovered on the Foster ranch and noted the debris was place there as a means of a cover-up.
* In 1994, the Air Force[that a Mogul balloon train # 4 was involved.
Fact: Official records show that the flight for Mogul balloon train # 4 was cancelled and never flown.
* An FBI memo mentions a balloon and a hexagon device.
Fact: no balloon with a hexagon device was responsible for the Roswell incident.
* In 1997, the Air Force said that alien bodies people saw in 1947 were test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's
Fact: That was a false story concocted by the Air Force since the Roswell incident happened in 1947 and the accident victims and test dummy test took place during the 1950's, not even in the same time frame.
There are your cover-up stories The following references underlines my point.
___________________________________________________________________
General Thomas Dubose Confirms Roswell Cover-up
"Marcel and Ramey's then chief of staff, Brigadier General Thomas Dubose (ret.), would later claim that the weather balloon was a cover story to get the press off their backs. Gen. Dubose, in fact, stated he personally received the order from Washington to start the coverup. Both said they were acting under Ramey's orders when they made statements to the press about the object being a weather device. Supporting this to some extent was another quote attributed to Marcel from 1947 by AP saying that the balloon debris was "scattered over a square mile," inconsistent with the small amount of balloon material that was publicly displayed. Another quote inconsistent with what was shown oddly came from Ramey himself, who was quoted by the Washington Post, United Press, Associated Press, and others saying that the "box kite" covered with foil would have been "about 25 feet in diameter" if reconstructed."
____________________________________________________________________
Affidavit of General Thomas Dubose
Brig. Gen. Thomas Jefferson Dubose
and the Weather Balloon Cover Story
7) "The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press."
Signed: T. J. Dubose
Date: 9/16/91
Signature witnessed by:
Linda R. Split
Notary Public, State of Florida
____________________________________________________________________
WAR V WU A50 NL PD
KALAMAZOO MICH JUL 8
WAR DEPT
INTELLIGENCE DIV WASHDC
****SUGGEST SAUCERS ARE RADAR TARGET FOR WEATHER OBSERVATION ...****
____________________________________________________________________
So, there's your undeniable proof of a Roswell cover-up.
[edit on 29-7-2006 by skyeagle409]
Originally posted by Access Denied
Wrong. Moore showed that Flight #4 regardless of how YOU THINK it was configured would have landed on the ranch.
Fact Charles Moore stated in the 1994 Roswell Report that Mogul balloon trains were not associated with service balloon flights. Dr. Crary's record show that only a service flight was launched, not a Mogul balloon train. CAA's guidelines forbid the launch of Mogul balloon flights on cloudy days and that is why Crary stated in his diary the reason why he cancelled Mogul balloon flight # 4 and now, some Roswell skeptics concur that no Mogul balloon flight took place.
No it isn’t. That’s your issue. The only issue here for me and many others is where did the debris come from and many of us have come to accept the Mogul explanation as the one with highest probability of being the correct one.
I've just posted the evidence that no Mogul balloon flight took ever place on June 4, 1947 according to official records and here you are still trying to push forward a false report.
If you think that a Mogul balloon flight took place then post the evidence for all to see including its flight records. If you are unable to do so , then the case is closed on a Mogul balloon train # 4 flight that never took place according to official Mogul flight records and as proof, I bet that you are unable to post any flight records for that balloon train for all of us here to see.
[edit on 29-7-2006 by skyeagle409]
Originally posted by Access Denied
Because he rips this whole balloon nonsense to shreds as just another red herring. I would suspect anybody without a vested emotional or financial interest in this case can clearly see that. If you want your conspiracy you’re going to have prove his, Moore’s, and many others analysis wrong.
Tim Prinity has been proven wrong time after time after time. He can't even get the facts straight and I consider Tim Prinity a comedian in regards to the Roswell incident. He has been proven wrong on other UFO issues as well by experts so I don't consider him a reliable source by any means.
Wrong. “Moore’s Memory” is supported by the fact that Brazel’s description of the debris found on his ranch matches that of a balloon and radar targets that were being used by Project Mogul at the time.
False! Brazel never claimed on his own that what he found were remains of a weather balloon. That was a false story concocted by the Air Force and the Roswell skeptics fell for the Air Force's falses story.
When Charles Moore was first asked if a Mogul balloon train crashed on the Foster ranch, his reply was, "No."
[edit on 29-7-2006 by skyeagle409]
Originally posted by Purgatory
The balloon story is the lamest hoax I've ever heard.
Originally posted by skyeagle409
So, there's your undeniable proof of a Roswell cover-up.
Well then I guess we can all go home now.
You have proved nothing and your so-called facts are wrong. Actually it appears you may in fact be delusional. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
If you want to participate in this debate you have to provide sources (links) to the material you're quoting.
Myself and nightwing have asked you several times to do this yet you continue to ignore our requests so therefore I will continue to ignore you.
P.S. I already covered Dubose on Page 1 of this thread...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Maybe you should read through this entire thread like I asked you to before you post again and make an even bigger fool of yourself.
P.S.S. We've already established there was a Flight #4. Get over it.
Originally posted by Access Denied
P.S.S. We've already established there was a Flight #4. Get over it.
Originally posted by Access Denied
[You have proved nothing and your so-called facts are wrong. Actually it appears you may in fact be delusional. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
Originally posted by Access Denied
Originally posted by skyeagle409
If you want to participate in this debate you have to provide sources (links) to the material you're quoting.
And I still don't a see a link to your source do you? Do you even know how to cite a source? You know like a provide a URL or a page number from a book along the with the book's title and who wrote it and when?
Look again!
And I see you edited another to post to remove the link. What’s the matter? Are you afraid I’d read it and see your own source blows your theory right out of the water? Too late I already read it.
Here it is again in case you want to read it again.
Mogul 4 That Never Was.
www.virtuallystrange.net...
Originally posted by Access Denied
Originally posted by skyeagle409
quote]
Signed: T. J. Dubose
Date: 9/16/91
And, I have provided Dubose's own affidavit where he states that the Roswell incident was a cover-up.
You see this is why I warned you about making a fool of yourself. Look at the date on this affidavit. Do you have any idea how old he was at the time?['quote]
What difference does that make. Dubose reconfirmed his statement in a video interview as well on TV, so what's the point?
He contradicts himself and others throughout it. According to both you and lost_shaman we can’t use Professor Moore’s memory as evidence so how can you use Dubose’s?
Because I have provided the document from Washington D.C. that confirms Dubose's account that the cover-up was concocted in Washington, not at Roswell AAF, which proved beyond anydoubt the Roswell cover-up. BTW, were you aware of Charles Moore's UFO sighting? Yes indeed, there were flying saucers all over New Mexico in 1947 as recorded by the Mogul and Skyhook balloon teams. If you missed it, here it is again.
_________________________________________________________________
Charles Moore's UFO Sighting.
"One very famous Mogul sighting involved Charles Moore on April 24, 1949. An additional irony here is that this is the same Charles Moore that has been trying so hard in the present-day to debunk the Roswell case as one of his Mogul balloons."
" Moore's sighting was written up in the equally famous 1952 LIFE Magazine article of high-quality UFO reports and in a 1950 TRUE Magazine article by Naval Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, head of the Naval missile program at White Sands (who unequivocally stated that the flying saucers being spotted by White Sands personnel, including himself, were not only real but extraterrestrial in origin). Moore's sighting is also found in a number of government documents, including those of the CIA, whose scientists were very impressed by it."
roswellproof.homestead.com...
You see, flying saucers are real!
Give it up. You’re wasting your time. Go back to Space.com and troll there.
LOL!! You need to give it up since it has already been proven that there was no Mogul balloon train # 4 flight and as proof, you failed to post any data flight records on that particular flight. What more can I say except that you failed to prove your point and I provided references that proved mine.
[edit on 29-7-2006 by skyeagle409]
Originally posted by Access Denied
Originally posted by skyeagle409
Same for Mogul balloon trains, which is further proof they were not classified.
You truly are clueless. Read my lips very carefully and repeat after me...
"The Mogul balloon trains were not classified, only thier purpose was!"
I could have gone back to 1947 to see that its mission was.
roswellproof.homestead.com...
Besides, the Soviet's first nuclear blast was detected by an aircraft, not a Mogul balloon train. Were you aware of that fact?
There was no coverup.
Now, that's funny considering that for 47 years the Air Force covered up the Roswell incident with a weather balloon and then admitted they lied and covered it up again with a Mogul balloon flight that never was. It's all there in 'black and wihte.'
Proof of a Roswell cover-up.
4) while the base was the ONLY nuke armed air force base in the usa at the time, would not that mean the people in command whould Know a disk from a weather baloon ( since they are trained to reconize any and all craft flying, to fly, and x-craft ) understand that After he picked the stuff up off the ranch and turned it over to his commander he was told By his commander to tell the local newspaper. and that Both of them were convinced AT the time that this was an object of ET design and opperation.
and it was After the world was notified that the big boys showed up and started the whole weather baloon thing.
just dont understand the need to prove that these men were nuts ( But OK to retain there jobs protecting the USA with the use of Nukes )
But then again this might take awhile to figure out. i mean it only took 300 years for some guys in togas to decide jesus was the son of god.
Originally posted by Access Denied
[
Only the rancher was. Marcel wasn't sure what it was. The rest is just one big huge misunderstanding. The "press release" got "lost in translation". We still don't know exactly what was said it in. None of them had ever seen a radar reflector before.
I am sure these people never saw a rawin device either until they recovered one. Where’s the flying saucer story for their recoveries? Once again, note that those recovered rawin devices look nothing like the hand-torn stuff in Ramey's office.
REPORTED RADAR TARGET RECOVERIES
roswellproof.homestead.com...
[edit on 29-7-2006 by skyeagle409]
Originally posted by Access Denied
There was no coverup.
SO you were encouraged by whom to have a cover story?
A: Probably by James Peoples, who was our scientific
monitoring... As you may be aware, there is a former colonel,
later General DuBose, who makes a statement that something was a
cover story. When I read this, I was not at all surprised. I
interpreted that as saying someone was covering up on Mogul.
That was my interpretation when I read what was attributable to
General DuBose. So from his point of view, there were certainly
no threats, but we were aware we weren't supposed to be talking.
***********************
Q: You went on these field trips. When you left, getting
back to the cover story, you were the project engineer.
*************************
That's the end of it. So there's no hint that Crary was
involved in any coverup such as this clearly is. This is a
coverup right here because they talk about our operations, they
talk about our balloons we thought went to Colorado,and they all
claim it to be part of Pritchard's radar operation.
**************************
I'm really surprised at this newspaper story because
implicit in this is the idea that someone provided a good cover
for us, and yet Crary's diary doesn't show that he was involved
in it, and I wasn't aware that my contact, Dyvad, was privy
enough to our operations to have carried this out. So this is a
bit of a mystery to me.
Q: What would you speculate, how would someone, just
circumstances, coincidences, or intentional?
A: It's very clear that it was intentional, and there was
a better security operation going on than I appreciated at the
time. That would be my assessment.
www.project1947.com...
JULY 8
INTELLIGENCE DIV WASHDC
SUGGEST SAUCERS ARE RADAR TARGET FOR WEATHER OBSERVATION
PURPOSES CONTACT COL M DUFFY SPRING LAKE NEW JERSEY FOR
INFORMATION