Roswell Proof: Where is it?

Originally posted by Access Denied
[Cool! That means he's one of us

And, these as well. More flying saucers over New Mexico. Wbat the Air Force didn't tell the public.



brumac.8k.com..../WhiteSandsProof/WhiteSands2.gif




[edit on 24-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

Originally posted by Access Denied

By the way, here’s his recollection of Flight #4 for reference…

I think that Flight #4 was the flight that was launched out of Alamogordo on June 4, 1947. This is based on Dr. Crary’s actual diary of the launch and other events. This is also one of those events where we went to multiple radar targets because we were not having good success with single targets. This flight was with multiple balloons and targets and may have had a sonobouy (black box?).

That’s good enough for me… then again my beliefs don’t hinge on this case

That's a good one. I have Dr. Crary's diary and it is in his diary where it states that Mogul balloon train # 4's flight was cancelled on June 4, 1947. It also states that Mogul balloon flight for June 3, 1947 was cancelled due to clouds, same as for the cancellation for Mogul balloon train # 4 and that, according to Dr.Crary's diary.

And, once again, a clear indication why there are no flight records for that balloon train because it was cancelled. Sorry, but the Air Force duped the public on Project Mogul and the lack of any flight data records for balloon train # 4 are that proof.





[edit on 24-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

Originally posted by Access Denied
I think that Flight #4 was the flight that was launched out of Alamogordo on June 4, 1947. This is based on Dr. Crary’s actual diary of the launch and other events. This is also one of those events where we went to multiple radar targets because we were not having good success with single targets. This flight was with multiple balloons and targets and may have had a sonobouy (black box?).

A service flight carried only a single sonobuoy and there are no records that it carried any rawin devices at all and that is not a Project Mogul balloon train, in fact, it is not a balloon train at all. Here is what Mogul balloon train # 4 consisted of and note that it resembles nothing of a servicee balloon that carried only a single sonobuoy and nothing else.

www.csicop.org...


Typical service balloon equipment.

* One sonobuoy



Typical Mogul balloon train equipment

* Dribblers

* Ballast tubes

* Braided lines

* Radiosode

* 17.5 payload

* Parachutes

* Equipment gauges

* Rawin devices











[edit on 24-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

Now, some Roswell skeptics are realizing that no Mogul balloon train # 4 was ever launched. From an Roswell skeptic.

____________________________________________________________________


Mogul 4 That Never Was

“To All, I think it is about time to come back to the question of wether the Mogul 4 balloon train was flown or not. After having read carefully the books of Charles Moore and Karl Pflock ,and having leafed through the 1,000 pages USAF Roswell Report, I seems more and more obvious to me that what Brazel found on the Foster ranch on June 14 was not the Mogul 4 balloon train”

“Geophysicist Albert Crary noted in his diary for June 4: "no balloon flight again on account of clouds. Flew regular sonobuoy mike up in cluster of balloons." He did that in the morning, having been in the Tularosa range from midnight to six, and the balloon cluster trajectory was followed in the morning's clear sky. There was no Mogul 4 launching at three in the morning and not even at 5. Moore himself does not remember such a launching.”.

And Brazel did not find any of the equipments of a Mogul train (page 108). This is easily explained if we admit that, as stated by Crary, there was no Mogul 4 launching!

www.virtuallystrange.net...





____________________________________________________________________

What about Phillip Corso? Or he to was part of the Moore, Berlitz, Friedman gang???
Only God knows what is being cooked now...

skyeagle409,

I agree that the MOGUL Balloon trains were cancelled according to Dr. Crary's Diary.

Further evidence of that is found in the AF's Roswell Report.

April 17, 1947
Mr. C. J. Stock, Secretary
New York Subcommittee on Air Space
365 Madison Avenue
New York 17, N. Y.
Reference: New York Meeting No. 12 Subject No. 26, New York Case #X6
Dear Sir:
Receipt of the minutes of the above meeting are acknowledged with thanks.
However, on reading them, a discrepancy was noted. We believe the weather
conditions agreed upon for Phase 2 operations were not a cloudless sky, but
no ceiling under 20,000 ft.

We realize that there might be occasions &en the clouds present would
not constitute a ceiling. Yet, due to chaotic or unstable sky conditions,
our balloons might be considered an unseen hazard to aircraft.
It is therefore requested that we be permitted to fly these rapidly
rising, high altitude balloons after obtaining clearance on days
when there are no more than scattered clouds in thin layers up to
20,000 ft. and visibility greater than three miles.

Thia is an important point, as the phenomena which we hope to measure
is not a frequent one and our chances to investigate the remote phenomena
are markedly reduced if we have to wait for cloudless skies and the phenomena
to coincide.

This would have been brought to your attention earlier. However, we are
unable. until yesterday, to confirm our impressions with the representatives
of the Army Air Forces who were present at the meeting.

Yours very truly,
C. S. Schneider
Research Assistant

*********************************************************

DEPARTMENT OF Commerce
CIVIL AERONAUTICS ADMINISTRATION
385 h@dison Ave.
New York 17. N. Y.
New York University
College of Engineering
Research Division
University heights
New York 53, N. Y.
Attention: Mr. C. S. Schneider, Research Assistant
Mr. Schneider

This is in reply to your letter of April 17th.

It is true that at N.Y. Airspace Subcommittee Meeting # 12. We advised
you that the Phase II operations would be restricted to weather conditions
in which the sky was clear of clouds below 20,000 feet and th, visibility
at least three miles at all altitudes up to and including 2O,C00 ft. However,
it was indicated that these conditions were subject to concurrence and approval
by the Washington Airspace Subcommittee.

In order to expedite final approval of this case, coordination was effected
with the Washington Airspace Subcommittee immediately subsequent to our Meeting # 12. It was related as a result of such coordination that the
Washington Committee felt that the ceiling restriction was inadequate in
the interests of air safety and required that a cloudless sky condition be
specified.

This information was relayed to the members of the N.Y. Airspace Subcommittee
and they in turn concurred with this amendment in the interest of air safety.
The minutes of New York Meeting #12 were amended accordingly.

Yours very truly,
C. J. Stoek
Secretary, N. Y. Airspace Subcommittee

Schneider didn't like it and asked that the restrictions be somewhat lifted to allow more Flights and he was told that after review MOGUL Balloon launches could only be done under conditions of cloudless skies.

This shows that when Crary states on June 3 and 4 , that "Balloon Flight was canceled due to cloudy skies" and "No Balloon flight again on account of clouds " is refering to MOGUL balloon trains.

Of course on the 5th of June when a MOGUL Train is launched it is documented clearly in Dr. Crary's Diary.

June 5 Thurs. Up at 4 to shoot 2 charges for balloon flight. Whole assembly of constant-altitude balloons set up at 0500. Fired charges at 0537 and 0552, then soon buzzed by plane to return. Receiver at plane did not work at all. Ground receiver worked for a short time but did not receive explosions. B-17 and most of personnel out to Roswell - recovered equipment some 25 mi east of Roswell.

[edit on 24-7-2006 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by Access Denied

by lost_shaman
skyeagle409,

I agree that the MOGUL Balloon trains were cancelled according to Dr. Crary's Diary.

I’m not surprised you agree. I'm curious, did you two meet on the Uplink forum at Space.com?

I agree because it's stated plain as day in Dr. Crary's Diary, it's clear that MOGUL Balloons were required to be launched in cloudless skies, and because I've looked up the weather maps on the day's in question and can show that it was indeed cloudy.

June 3rd 1947 1:30 am

June 4th 1947 1:30 am

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
skyeagle409,

I agree that the MOGUL Balloon trains were cancelled according to Dr. Crary's Diary.

I’m not surprised you agree. I'm curious, did you two meet on the Uplink forum at Space.com?
[/quote


What it is, more people, including some skeptics have found that there was never a Mogul balloon # 4 launched on June 4, 1947. Check it out from this skeptic. Remember, this is from a Roswell skeptic.

___________________________________________________________________


Mogul 4 That Never Was - Bourdais

"My opinion is that it is no smoking gun at all, because: first,
there was no Mogul 4 launching, according to Crary;...Geophysicist Albert Crary noted in his diary for June 4:

***************************************************
["no balloon flight again on account of clouds. Flew regular
sonobuoy mike up in cluster of balloons."]
***************************************************


"The problem is to explain Brazel's finding without Mogul 4. My point
is that it is fairly easy to explain it, and that the whole
Mogul 4 story is dead for good."

www.virtuallystrange.net...
___________________________________________________________________

Originally posted by Access Denied

[First of all, the “story” ended in 1947... it was pretty much forgotten about by all involved.

That is not correct and here is the proof.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

I was the Project Engineer for the NYU balloon project during the 1947 time frame. I was not aware that the project had the name MOGUL until 1992 when I was contacted by an individual who was working on some research related to the “Roswell Incident” and the relationship to the NYU balloon project.

Lemme get this straight. The Project engineer didn't know the name of the project until 45 years later when someone told him it's name?
Then how was he able to work out the specs? He's the freakin PE for cripes sake.
I can see it now....Army guy- "we want you to design a secret balloon that looks like a saucer when it hits the ground. Give us a few years to come up with a name." CB- "Ok."
Btw nice try at answering my questions there AC but they're just your opinions.
Oh and my beliefs don't hinge on this case either, so at least we have something in common.

If this were CBs balloons then why wasn't he asked to come clean up his mess?
Why ship the pile to Ft. Worth when the balloonists were much closer(Alamagordo)?
Why didn't CB come forward and claim his prize when the pics made headlines?
Sorry man there just is no factual data to show this was Mogul. And I gots more questions.

UFO skeptics tend to ignore the facts and that is why they got fooled on the Air Force's weather balloon story for 47 years and on its 1994 and 1997 Roswell reports. The skeptics also failed to do their homeword to uncover the facts surrounding:

"Mogul Technical Report No. 1, date: April 1, 1948"

They would have found that those balloon flights were not as secret as the Air Force led them to believe but the skeptics took the word of the Air Force anyway. Now, the facts are out that no balloon of any kind was ever involved in the Roswell incident.

On another note that many Roswell skeptics were unaware of.
____________________________________________________________________

Major Edwin Easley, Provost Marshal

"The Provost Marshal at the Roswell base, the equivalent of the chief of police, was in charge of all security at the crash site in 1947. When we located and then contacted Col. Edwin Easley in late 1989, it was the first time anyone had extensively questioned him about what had occurred. The Provost Marshal did not tell us the weather balloon cover story, nor did he give us a true account of the Roswell recovery. Instead, he told us that he considered himself still sworn to secrecy about the event—after 43 years! “I can’t talk about it,” was all that Easley kept repeating."

"After decades of silence, provost marshal, Major Edwin Easley confirmed the bodies as well as the impact site north of Roswell just before his death in 1992. Col. Blanchard ordered Easley to post guards on the access roads to the debris field."

Originally posted by Access Denied
lost_shaman,


In my opinion, and that of others outside of ATS, his childish behavior which you have encouraged and which has been allowed to continue has lowered the overall standard of quality discussion to be expected here in this forum and could adversely affect future participation.

If you’re not interested in continuing this debate that is fine with me but be aware that as a result of your inaction I will have lost all respect for you.

AD,

Get off your high horse!

You realize that I do not have any control over ANY other ATS Members!

If it was even any of your business , one of my "buddies" is the only person on this thread throwing you Bones!

So get over it. And try not to post in such bad taste.

Access Denied, maybe the reason skyeagle keeps repeating himself and Lost_shaman keeps bringing this up is because you keep avoiding the fact that Moore’s notes say Mogul flight #4 was never launched.

Instead of attacking the messenger/messengers, how can Mogul flight #4 be the debris recovered on the Foster Ranch if it was not launched?

this is getting freaking tiring.......dead issue, dead issue, dead issue........yawn...........don't all you know there was no Roswell crash and that Jesse Marcel, Jr. is lying, insane, and an agent of the US govt. Wake up, ATS'ers!

just kidding!!!!!!

AD,

Here is what you said on page 6 ... "(Substitute “no balloon flights again” with “no constant level balloon flights again” in the second sentence if you still don’t get it.)"

Which is basically the same thing I've been saying.

Now , if it is not a constant level Balloon flight then you can throw out everything C. B. Moore said.

You see if it wasn't a constant level Balloon train it could not have stayed in the air for ten hours like C. B. Moore claims. It would not have lingered in the stratosphere heading North West for two hours. It would not be anything like Flight # 2 because that was a 600 ft. Constant level Cosmic ray type Neoprene Balloon train.

So you see you've basically agreed with me already and refuted your own position unwittingly, because unless there was actually a "Constant level balloon Train" launched on June 4 ,1947 then we can positively rule-out MOGUL having anything to do with events that transpired on the Foster Ranch.

Originally posted by Access Denied
I refuted this argument IN DETAIL for the I don't how manyeth time it was brought up again way back on page 6 in case you missed it...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sorry, I did miss that because at that time I was more interested in the USAF report and how it implicated SF with the NI.

I don't have the time or patience to go back and count how many times they've repeated "there was no Flight #4" since then.... 10, 20? Tell me again why this is acceptable behavior? Just because they don't agree with what I presented doesn't mean they have the right to be disruptive does it? After all this is MY thread right?

I wouldn’t consider it disruptive. They are just expressing their opinion, the same as you are. Sometimes a good point is worth repeating. Yes you did start the thread, but if these two didn’t keep posting, this thread probably would not have lasted this long. If the point of starting the thread was to convince others what you think happened, aren’t they the very people you are trying to reach?

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by Hal9000
Instead of attacking the messenger/messengers, how can Mogul flight #4 be the debris recovered on the Foster Ranch if it was not launched?

Who's attacking who here?

I was just using the commonly used phrase “attacking the messenger”, which I’m sure you know, is a debate tactic. Instead of debating the actual evidence, you go after the person that is delivering the evidence. I’m not accusing you of attacking anyone, just describing the tactic your using.

After all, this is just a debate because if the truth were a proven fact, the debate would be over. If I were to judge this debate, I would say both sides have done a good job bringing up various details that have not been discussed before, and has been an interesting read. But if I were to declare a winner at this point, I would say that Access Denied has presented the stronger case.

In the final analysis, the story of Roswell comes down to the testimony of two people. One would be Jesse Marcel and his claims of finding extraordinary materials on the Foster Ranch, and that of Professor Moore and his claims that the material found was a Mogul “service” flight. Even if one is more probable than the other, there is still a chance that the improbable may have been what happened.

Could it be that both are right? Could it be that “something” crashed into the balloon during the flight and debris from both objects were found on the Foster Ranch? A midair collision would answer a lot of questions, like how the debris was found to be spread out like from something that exploded in the air and fell to the ground. It would explain the balloon and rawin target debris shown in the press conference photos, and still leave the possibility of other “more interesting” debris that was not allowed to be photographed.

Could it be that the other witnesses that describe alien bodies being recovered are describing other events that occurred near the same time and location. I think these are other possibilities and we will probably never know what really happened.

Even with the all the more sensible evidence presented here, along with the documents claiming that no “flying disc” hardware had been recovered after the Roswell event, I still find it just as improbable that so may people are simply making up stories. If this were true, I think the research should be re-directed as the cause why so many people were so delusional. After all, these are the same people that supported the 509th Bomber Squadron, which was the vanguard of the nation at that time.

Roswell is an intriguing case and regardless of your beliefs, is not a waste of time for people to research, and it shouldn’t be simply brushed aside. It is a piece of our history.

[edit on 7/28/2006 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by Access Denied

No, until now you've been saying there was no Flight #4

If it's only a service flight and not a constant level Balloon train , then...

A. it's not classified and would not require a Cover.

B. Could not have made it onto the Foster Ranch. ( C. B. Moore himself has shown that the winds were such that only a constant level Cosmic Ray type Balloon Train would have lingered in the Stratosphere and traveled North West.

So calling it a service flight or naming it "Flight # 4" is not relevant , it's the fact that it was not a constant level cosmic ray type Balloon train that is at the heart of the issue here.

Dr. Crary's Journal supports this as he states "June 3 Balloon Flight cancelled due to Cloudy skies" and " June 4 No Balloon flight again on account of Clouds".

I've already shown that the reference to clouds is a direct reference to MOGUL Balloon trains as Charles Schneider was told by the CAA that the Balloon Trains , as a flight risk, were limited to the condition of Cloudless Skies.

Moore is the undeniable expert on this subject. It was his project and he was there so his opinion is the only one that really matters, especially in a court of law.

Moore has already admitted he has no direct memory of "Flight # 4".

Also this is not a court of Law , if anything it is Historical Review. In Scholarly Historical review , it's primary sources that count (Dr. Crary's Diary, the CAA Correspondence to Schneider, and those NOAA Weather Maps are Primary sources), not vague old indirect memories.

If you want to argue about this I honestly don't have the time or inclination so I suggest you take it up with Printy and let us know how that works out for you...

Why should I take anything up with Printy?

He is not an Authority on the Roswell Incident. He clearly states that he's not interested in anything but offering a "Second Opinion".

On June 4, 1947, Flight 4 was launched, and tracked as far as Arabela, New Mexico, only 17 miles from the location of the debris field on the Foster ranch. Flight 4 was still aloft when the batteries ran down, and contact was lost.

Here this is not a fact supported by any evidence , but C. B. Moores Memory.

Recently, Charles Moore has developed a brand-new line of evidence even further supporting a link between the Roswell Incident and Project Mogul. UFO researcher Kevin Randle recently provided Moore with National Weather Service wind data for early June 1947.

When Moore used the Weather Service wind data and NYU altitude information to simulate the probable paths of the flights with recorded ground tracks (Flights 5 and 6), his results agreed quite reasonably with the measured balloon paths—Flight 5 drifted mainly to the east, landing near Roswell, while Flight 6 took a more southwesterly route. Moore then extended his analysis to Flight 4, the Roswell candidate. He used the wind data for June 4, 1947, and assumed the flight reached altitudes comparable to those of the subsequent two flights (which were made with very similar balloon trains).

Here Moore is assuming "Flight # 4" ( service flight in Dr. Crary's Diary) was a constant level Balloon train just like flights 5 and 6.

It clearly was not as Dr. Crary's Diary states "No Balloon flights again on account of clouds" which is undeniably a reference to MOGUL Balloon Trains as is was ONLY the Balloon Trains that were prohibited by the condition of "Cloudless skies"

Too many witness accounts prove it enough, as does the military's direct admittance at the time it occurred, then quickly withdrawing what they had said to 1- avoid a mass-panic 2- conceal the technology they discovered for national security purposes.
The balloon story is the lamest hoax I've ever heard. The "investigation" that concluded the military's closing of the Roswell case recently is just as bad. They didn't try very hard.

Nov 1947- transistor is invented. co-incidence? doubt it.

Originally posted by Access Denied

1. A balloon train with radar reflective targets and a radiosonde was launched on June 4th, 1947 by Project Mogul personnel therefore this flight was a "Mogul Flight" even if no data from it was recorded in the NYU reports.

2. The "Mogul Flight" on June 4th, 1947 occurred after Mogul Flight #3 and before Mogul Flight #5 and there were no other flights between them so therefore this flight was "Mogul Flight #4".

3. The fact that Dr. Crary's journal entry does not specifically state that the balloon train launched on June 4th, 1947 carried radar targets is insufficient evidence to disprove Dr. Moore's statement that it did because not every flight recorded in Dr. Crary's journal listed everything that was carried on them therefore it’s inconclusive.

He mentions only that a "service flight" was launched only, not a Mogul balloon train. Mogul balloons needed clear skies and the skies on June 3 and June 4 were cloudy and service balloons were not associated with Mogul balloon trains as noted by Mogul technicians, including Charles Moore, thus Crary clearly states that what he launched on that cloudy day was nothing more than a typical service balloon flight. May I suggest you read the following as to why Mogul balloon flight # 4 was cancelled.

____________________________________________________________________

Mogul Technical Report No. 1

[Mogul Technical Report No. 1, dated April 1, 1948, noted that the CAA
had to be nformed and that guidelines had been established as to when to
launch to ensure air safety [clear skies]. One requirement was that the weather be
reasonably clear so that the balloons could be seen visually.]
____________________________________________________________________


And, that is another reason why Crary cancelled Mogul balloon flight # 4 because he would have been in violation of the CAA's flight guidelines and he definitely would not want to do that and that is another clear reason as to why there are no flight data records to be found for Mogul balloon train #4 and now, you have skeptics who are throwing in the towel and admitting that no Mogul balloon flight # 4 took place on June 4, 1947.

[edit on 28-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

Originally posted by Access Denied
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't have the time or patience to go back and count how many times they've repeated "there was no Flight #4" since then.... 10, 20? Tell me again why this is acceptable behavior? Just because they don't agree with what I presented doesn't mean they have the right to be disruptive does it? After all this is MY thread right?

I am glad you brought up the Air Force's 1997 Roswell Report because it stated the following:

********************************************************************

1997 Roswell Report: Case Closed

Claims of "alien bodies" at the Roswell Army Air Field hospital were most likely a combination of two separate incidents:

1. ) a 1956 KC-97 aircraft accident in which 11 Air Force members lost their lives; and,

2. ) a 1959 manned balloon mishap in which two Air Force pilots were injured.

********************************************************************



The Roswell incident took place in 1947 but those accidents happened during the 1950s, so those accidents are not even in the same timeframe as the Roswell incident.