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Roswell Proof: Where is it?

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posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 05:31 PM
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First , the fact that Roswell is not mentioned in Blue Book tells us that the event was probably Classified, because all explainable UFO events are listed in Blue Book from this time period. As a matter of fact it was BlueBook's mission to show all UFO events could be explained by prosaic objects like Balloons, so to leave Roswell out is significant.

Also there was a News Paper Clipping about Roswell in the Blue Book Files.

Second , Bob Pratt worked for the National Inquirer at that time and is and was a Serious UFO researcher and had been involved with Stanton Friedman and Bill Moore's Roswell investigation at the time in 1978. So the fact that some of the Story got printed in the national Inquirer is no surprise.

Third, if the Roswell event was Classified Top Secret or higher , then its no surprise that it is not mentioned in a SECRET edition of the Estimate of the Situation.

And if you look really hard at Ruppelts involvement , you'll learn that he did take control of the 1947-1948 UFO Documents until after those had been returned from Harvard in dis-array and with Documents missing. So his lack of knowledge about Classified UFO documents again comes as no surprise to me.

Also Ruppelt didn't even know about the "Green Fireballs" and that was also an Air Force investigation.

As for Marcel , how has he been discredited?



And I already brought up the fact that Col. Trakowski was tasked with writing a report for Project Grudge to detail whether or not any MOGUL Balloon trains had been responsible for any UFO sightings or events, his report said no and had no mention of the Roswell Incident. Strange isn't it because according to Trakowski in 1994 , he remembers Col. Duffy called him in the middle of the night to talk about Roswell being a MOGUL Balloon , and yet he doesn't mention that in his report in 1948.



[edit on 29-6-2006 by lost_shaman]




posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 07:59 PM
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You must be joking. I honestly hope that isn't the extent of your research.

Thankfull, we have people on this board who have already done extensive research, complete with a host of documents, eyewitness statements amongst the many things provided as evidence that Roswell was indeed a UFO crash.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just a word of advice: The Air Force's "Roswell: Case Closed" report has been the laughing stock of many, even in the military community. You would do well to look a bit deeper into air force claims than take them at face value.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 12:35 AM
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Personally I think the strongest "prove" about Roswell is The Day After Roswell by Col J.Phillip Corso. I'm assuming alot of you here have read this book. If not then is worth to read it. I don't know what other prove are you looking for when a ex military of the Pentagon makes claimes like that. He delt directly with Roswell crash debris and he was the one who gave to different companies part of the alien technology to develop and produce much of the stuff we have to day. From the transistor to the microwave and laser...
As far as I know, nobody has debunked Corso. Correct me if I'm wrong.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 12:57 AM
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Let's talk about paying attention then...




Further, the Fort Worth AAF and Roswell AAF weren't using those weather balloons or targets so where did he get one from anyway? They didn't even have the radars to use the targets with if they had managed to get one.


Apparently whoever wrote this article didn't see what I pointed out to you Access Denied , when I pointed out that David Rudiak has posted pictures and transcripts of an article from the same News Paper that J. Bond Johnston worked for on July 11, 1947 that shows a Mobile RADAR launching un-pigmented Neoprene's and RAWIN RADAR Targets from Ft. Worth , Texas.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 01:20 AM
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Then you better read it my friend. The best opinion is the one that you can create your self. Enough with being influenced by whatever other people say.
BTW who si Friedman to take every statement from his as a pure truth? Friedman him self has been accused more then once for being part of counter inteligence operations to demage and spread confusion among ufo researchers.
So my best sugestion is to read the book and get your own opinion about it



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 02:28 AM
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Originally posted by Access Denied
I must admit I haven't read Corso's book but ironically even Stanton Friedman doesn’t like it...


I've read about 3/4ths of the book.
It's a great novel. I cannot accept Col Corso's fantastic claims at face value.
I'm not an expert but his explanations for kevlar, the laser, fiberoptics etc...
seem far fetched. According to his book, he didn't even start working on getting this alien tech out into private industry until the early 1960s. Friedman makes a good point that they wouldn't have sat on it for almost 15 years. Corso seems to imply each branch of the military including the CIA had small peices of the Roswell puzzle but were working against each other. Frankly he comes off as a bit paranoid the way he repeatedly stresses the CIA was infiltrated with communists and really paints himself the hero. LOL

Too many things don't ring true. Like him claiming to have seen alien corpses in storage at a base in Kanasas but just put it out of his mind until 15 years later when all of a sudden Gen Trudeau is tapping him to run this secret project. Sounds like something they cooked up to make the story even catchier.

Now on the other hand, I believe his documented professional affiliations with Tredeau and the NSC, inevitably led to confirmation the alien/UFO phenemenon is for real. He probably had privileged conversations and even limited access to some classified material. But the claims he makes about his personal involvement is more than I can swallow. I think he wrote the book in as attempt to get sunlight on the issue and make some money for his heirs but went for sensationalism over an accurate narrative on his work and dealings with the aliens/UFO question in government.



To the OP:
I believe Roswell was most likely a real alien/UFO event. I'm firm believer in a high level organized conspiracy to withold the truth about aliens/UFOs. I am not someone prone to flights of fancy. As recently as a few years ago while taking a uni astronomy class, the professor made all the usual claims against its possibility, nothing can go faster than light, even if there are advanced alien beings out there, they are probably so far away they/we don't know about each other, SETI has discovered nothing etc... I thought there was an out of the box chance, but realistically aliens/UFOs encounters are not real.

But I kept an open mind and just started reading about it on my own time. After reading a couple dozen books, as well as hearing the testimony of some of the disclosure project witnesses, like Daniel Sheehan, I came to the realisation about a year ago the truth is being supressed.

If you look objectively at everything, there is ample evidence to support an abductive conclusion, in all likelihood, aliens/UFO encounters are real. I believe it's impossible to deny events have occurred that have no other rational explanation i.e. Rendlesham Forest. There are too many extremely credible witnesses to dismiss as nutcases, like Admiral Lord Hill Norton or FAA Division Chief John Callahan.

The nail in the coffin is the govt secrecy. If we're all just crazy conspiracy theorists, why do they go to such extraordinary lengths to keep what they do know a secret ?
It goes far beyond not wanting to compromise a secret military aircraft. When VP Dick Cheney was asked if he was briefed about the UFO phenemenon, he gave the evasive answer, "If I had been briefed, it would be classified".

If you want to read some really good books. I can suggest "Crash at Corona" The U.S. Military Retrieval and Cover-up of a UFO Crash at Corona: The Definitive Study of the Roswell Incident by Don Berliner and Stanton T. Friedman,

Along with "Above Top Secret" : The Worldwide UFO Cover-up by Timothy Good.


[edit on 30-6-2006 by Schaden]

[edit on 30-6-2006 by Schaden]

[edit on 30-6-2006 by Schaden]



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 01:25 PM
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Access Denied,

The only way you could consider the fact that the Army Air Forces are launching RAWINs and Neoprene's for the Press in Ft. Worth is if you simply refuse to acknowledge it!


BTW, Tim Pritney is an Air Force apologist so if I were I'd be careful about quoting him too much lest it come back to haunt you.






According to Newton, they were only used on "special projects and overseas" and that "We did not use them in Ft Worth".


Guess that picture of RAWINs being launched at Ft. Worth is worth a thousand words ehh?



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Access Denied

BTW, did you even bother to read the caption underneath the picture and the accompanying article?


Yes, It's a Disk, but It Looks Wee Bit Slow
Mack McDonald, operator of Mack's Place at Lake Worth, didn't know whether he had a flying disk or not Thursday morning, but he was sure of one thing.
"I know for certain there isn't any way you can make this thing fly 1,200 miles an hour.
It was a roundish object apparently made of plastic or rubber, about 15 inches in diamter and nearly a foot thick. Two boys found it earlier in the mornign on the shore of goat Island, and brought it to McDonald.
It was full of air, McDonald said, and guessed it was some sort of balloon.
Fort Worth Army Air Field released a radiosonde balloon about 10:30 a.m. Thursday and before it could get where it was going a resident near the field reported it in as a flying something-or-other -- maybe disk. It looked to him and neighbors as if it came from the direction of Dallas, then turned west, southwest, and up, disappearing in the overcast.
An ex-pilot of the Army Air Forces, in a motor boat in Eagle Mountain Lake, saw something in the sky Wednesday night. It "took off rapidly toward the east," he said, but he couldn't figure out what it was.
Texas amateur scientists meanwhile continued their hypotheses in the matter of flying disks.
J. I. Godfrey of Brooksmith has beens seeing flying saucers for "quite a while," but they are just "leather wing bats" reflecting light shot skyward from Brownwood at dusk
Bowen Pope of Hamlin has another theory. He thinks proper investigation will show that the slanted windshield glass of moving modern cars reflects sun or bright rays high into the sky, where they again are reflected as "silver disks." He thinks you won't see them on cloudy days.

I’d say that was a pretty good demo… it recreated the Roswell event all over again 2 days later!


No of course I've bothered reading it. I've also bothered myself to read about a Dozen other articles covering other Balloon Demos from the week after Roswell and about half of them also have bogus sounding tales of Farmers and Ranchers "mistaking" RAWIN Targets used in the Demos for "Disks".

There are also even a few references to people "hitting the Bottle" to hard and that harkens back to the good ole-day's of the "Mystery Airships" of the 1890's.

It's called a disinformation campaign and that's exactly what was happening after Roswell.

( BTW, You might notice all of this reporting after Roswell was an attempt to explain "Disks" and "Flying Saucers" as weather balloons and the dis-information has nothing whatsoever to do with a "cover" for a Fantasy MOGUL Balloon. )




In addition to the radar target, a large radar tracking trailer is shown in the photos taken. Supposedly neither item was present at the base. [Personal telephone interview with Irving Newton; affidavit of Newton in Ref. 1] Either this notion is grossly mistaken or the target and trailer were rushed in from the outside specifically for this demonstration. Either way, it is obvious the radar targets were readily available.




Please read these last two sentences very carefully. If you don't see any problems with this then I'm not surprised you believe Rudiak's fairy tales.


Which sentences should I re-read? The first one that say's Irving Newton "is grossly mistaken" or the second sentence that says "it is obvious the radar targets were readily available".




No, but some intelligent discussion on this subject would be


I couldn't agree more...


[edit on 1-7-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 10:16 PM
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So what's your point? You believe Roswell is a hoax, a invention by the government for the reason that God only knows?



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by Access Denied
It's called a disinformation campaign and that's exactly what was happening after Roswell. = lost_shaman

Ah I see. Would this presumably be part of the same highly sophisticated disiformation campaign with it's tightly controlled media contacts that published this article?




Read the very first line of the article.

" The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment group at Roswell Army Air Field announced at noon today, that the field has come into possession of a flying saucer. "

An Intelligence Office certainly would not give out Disinformation would it?


That's were this story originated from an AAF Intelligence Office.

So what was AAF Intelligence doing at the time?

Tell of two McCoy's

Well here is an interesting fact, July 1947 T-2 Intelligence at Wright Field opened an Office to Study UFOs.

www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil...

At the time the Director of T-2 Intelligence was Col. Howard M. McCoy later described as the "Godfather" of ATI.

Also working for T-2 Intelligence was Major Frank T. McCoy Jr. In WWII Major Frank T. McCoy had been Officer-in-charge of Technical Air Intelligence Units ( TAIU). Their Job was to take control of Japanese Aircraft and equipment and they enjoyed the full support of Gen. Douglas MacArthur who personally signed letters authorizing TAIU units to "Take complete charge of all enemy crashed or captured aircraft or personnel as early as possible after the crash." The letters ordered armed forces in the area to provide necessary transportation and assistance to ATI personnel without further authorization from any headquarters. "


Starting to sound familiar yet?

Well it just happens that also in July 1947 T-2 Intelligence defined its own Mission as being three fold.




1. Insure the prevention of strategic, tactical or technological surprise from any source.

2. Provide intelligence required for command decisions and counsel upon air preparedness and air operations.

3. Insure appropriate counter-intelligence measures.


Now the first mission is interesting because the fact that T-2 opened an Office to study UFOs would definitely mean that "from any source" does in fact include UFOs.

And of course the third mission is interesting here because I am talking about a disinformation or counter-intelligence campaign , before , during , and after the Roswell incident. The fact that T-2 opened an office to study UFOs would also mean for sure that "appropriate counter-intelligence measures" also applies to UFOs.

So what this all means is that T-2 Intelligence in July 1947 would have had the right personnel and the self-defined mission to "take complete control" of and insure the "prevention of strategic, tactical or technological surprise" from and insure "appropriate counter-intelligence measures" for UFOs.

Your almost forced to think that if Roswell had been a UFO related Event that T-2 Intelligence would have had to have been involved. Well interestingly enough on July 6th 1947 , just two day's before Roswell , the Columbus (Ohio) Sunday Dispatch runs an article on the Front Page about a "Disc" found 8 miles south of Circleville, Ohio.






You have to admit Miss Jean Campbell is cuter than Gen. Ramey or Major Marcel!

Amazingly two more RAWINs are featured in Ohio Papers on July 8 , 1947 same day as the Roswell story broke. One again near Circleville and another in South Bloomfield, Ohio.

Circleville RAWIN/"Disc" Articles

Just take a look at the concentration and the proximity of these "Discs" to Wright Field.





All within 60 miles or less from Wright Field. Look at the wording and propaganda being used in some of the Articles.





a farmer eight miles south of Circleville reported finding a "mysterious" object in his field thought to be connected with the "flying saucer" mystery.


Sounds like "appropriate counter-intelligence measures" were already being developed in the press by T-2 Intelligence for UFOs by July 5, 1947 doesn't it?

So you see its actually quite likely that T-2 Intelligence was involved in a disinformation campaign that involves RAWINs and Roswell. Especially when you couple that with other evidence , like Brig. Gen Roger Ramey and his Intelligence Chief Col. Alfred Kalberer were debunking "Disks" on June 30, 1947, its obvious that AAF Intelligence ,and Brig. Gen. Ramey himself, wanted to explain the "Disks" away. And they were in fact dis-informing the Public about "Disks" just a week before the Roswell Incident.

roswellproof.homestead.com...





[edit on 2-7-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 06:05 PM
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It all depends on what you consider proof. If this was a murder case there would be more then enough proof to convict you in a court of law. Heck a handful of eyewitnesses can easily do that.

If your talking about proof like a piece of the ship we dont have it if we did there wouldnt be any conspiracy and I would be shocked how stupid the goverment was for letting out technology that would be of such a huge military advantage.



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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You do understand that you're overly long quotes of a physics lesson(?) contain statements taken out of context right?
The author of this text is in fact quoting the authors of the books and papers who were stating what they had learned from the government. You've actually gone in the opposite direction of your OP.
Oh and here's some good advice from a member here:

It's actually a pretty funny story if you can "divorce" yourself from what you "wish" was true (I know I wanted it to be) and look at it objectively...

Bons mots anyhow.


[edit on 7/2/06 by longhaircowboy]



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 08:58 PM
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Hi, I just wanted to chime in and say that Gazrok did a excellent job in the "The case for Roswell" series he posted here some time back. Here's a link to part 1, and you can follow from there.

The Case For Roswell Part1


I saw your ultra quotes above but am running out of the house atm with my gal, so I can't be bother to look yet, I will though.


X



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 09:02 PM
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Anyway, the fact remains despite all your theories and conjecture there is NO PROOF the debris was switched... in fact there's an OVERWHELMING preponderance of evidence in the form of Brazel's original statements to the press, sworn affidavits, and the photographs themselves that it wasn't... sorry.

How in the living world can you use Brazels original statements to support a theory that the debri wasn't switched? I don't recall him being present for the photo shoot in Ft. Worth. Which would give him zero knowledge of what was actually pictured.
And as for the photos....well we don't know if they were taken before or after a possible switch.
I think [opinion] the switch was made before the plane left Roswell. And the original debris didn't leave that day[/opinion]. Seems more likely the cover story would work if the original debris went on a secret flight later without all the fanfare. That way the participants, Ramey, Marcel, et al would simply be role players and the cover would be complete.
Sorry got no proof of that but it's my take on the available evidence.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 10:09 PM
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LHC,

I'd tend to agree with you.

If you want to talk about evidence there is no evidence that the original material ever went to Ramey's office.

What the evidence shows is that RAWINs were all over the place and that is what the Army Air Force was using right at that time to try and explain "Discs".

[edit on 3-7-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by Access Denied

Does that sound like an alien space ship to you?


Of course not it sounds like the explaination the military wanted him to give to the Roswell Daily Record.

If he had really found a MOGUL Balloon on the Ranch , then why would he say there was "no string or cable"?

If you look at a diagram of a MOGUL Balloon it is painfully clear that a MOGUL Balloon would have something like 1,160 feet of string and lobster twine holding it together.

If he had really found MOGUL Flight # 4 on his Ranch , then why did he only describe one object the size of a "table top"?

Mogul Flight # 4 , according to Charles Moores Memory , would have had Five RAWINs.

Of course Ramey had already , by the time Brazel was giving this interview, held a press conference telling the world it was a RAWIN Target. So when the Military escorts Brazel to the Roswell Daily Record to describe the debris , you can bet they had told him what to describe, a RAWIN and Balloon debris with no string just like what Brig. Gen. Ramey said it was.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 08:21 PM
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When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds.

If that describes a mogul balloon train then either I ain't smoke the right crooked cigs or the militaries own descriptions of the project were inflated.
Oh wait, an object that took hundreds of people and days to assemble only covered a small table when it fell back to earth. Yeah that sounds right.
Access please go study the specs on the mogul and drop this dillusional behavior.
And don't quote opinion as fact. That dress doesn't fit ya.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by Access Denied

If he had really found a MOGUL Balloon on the Ranch , then why would he say there was "no string or cable"? = lost_shaman

Because he didn’t find any?


Exactly, I agree. He didn't find any!



Originally posted by Access Denied

If he had really found MOGUL Flight # 4 on his Ranch , then why did he only describe one object the size of a "table top"? = lost_shaman

Because that was all he found?


Really , then where on Earth did he get that 200 yard Diameter Debris field from?


Originally posted by Access Denied

Did it ever occur to you that the section of the train that had the radar targets attached to it might have came apart somehow and the string and cable ended up somewhere else?


No not really , because you still have that 200 yard diameter debris field to account for.




Originally posted by Access Denied

By the way you do know the whole Mogul train as launched wouldn't all come down together anyway right? Apparently LHC doesn’t


There were 3 cutoff devices (pressure switches) to automatically cut loose certain parts of it at different altitudes.


Of course I'm aware of the cut-off devises. That's why I make a point , to point out that Lt. Col. James McAndrews version of witnesses describing Ballast Tubes is BS. The Ballasts would have been cut-off miles away from the touch-down point.



Originally posted by Access Denied

How the descent section of the train with the radar targets (at least 3... the actual number is irrelevant) attached to it came apart is anyone's guess but what the heck, I'll take a stab at it. Maybe it landed somewhere else and the string that one of the targets was attached to broke on impact (on a rock?) or afterwards (bird chewed on it?) and the target blew onto Brazel's ranch? Or maybe it did land on Brazel’s ranch and the rest of it blew away leaving only the balloon and at least one target?


I know its so easy to just make up whatever you want when you have a fictional Balloon train and just want to say it could do whatever because there is no documentation to say your wrong.

Except for the fact that there is no documentation for a MOGUL Flight # 4. And there is Documentation for every other MOGUL Flight , even failures like one that was only airborne 16 mins.

(We have positively been able to exclude everyone of the Known MOGUL Balloon Flights.)




Originally posted by Access Denied

Who knows... more importantly who cares?


I care ! Its a major point in UFO history regardless. There simply is not a way to talk about UFO History without talking about Roswell.

No matter how you slice it , Roswell was at the very least a Military dis-information campaign about "Discs".




Originally posted by Access Denied

Well if your big conspiracy theory was correct then apparently Brazel either didn't listen very well or take their threats seriously enough and you didn't read the entire interview...


Interview with Mac Brazel
Roswell Daily Chronicle, July 9, 1947

Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.

"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon," he said. "But if I find anything else besides a bomb they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything about it."




No , I've read this interview a hundred times , I feel it supports my position.





[edit on 6-7-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 04:25 PM
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Frankly, after researching the Roswell case for a while, but by no means an expert, I will agree that there isn’t any proof that it happened, but I don’t think it has been proven that it didn’t happen. There may not be proof, but there is a lot of evidence. A lot has already been covered here, but I’ll throw out a few more things for you. First, if I were you I would not be using the USAF report as a source.


Originally posted by Access Denied
That fact is significant yet it’s often overlooked. So what’s the big deal? The “big deal” is the "event" was “resurrected” 30 years later…


In 1978, an article appeared in a tabloid newspaper, the National Inquirer, which reported the former intelligence officer, Marcel, claimed that he had recovered UFO debris near Roswell in 1947. Also in 1978, a UFO researcher, Stanton Friedman, met with Marcel and began investigating the claims that the material Marcel handled was from a crashed UFO.

www.af.mil...


This is one of many incorrect statements made by the USAF report. The fact is Stanton Friedman interviewed Jesse in 1978 and the National Enquirer did not publish their interview with Jesse until 1980. Here is Stanton Friedman’s reaction to this statement.



I go through this long story because the Air Force has attempted to tabloidize (sic) this story. They claimed that, in 1978, the National Enquirer ran a story in which Major Marcel was claiming he'd recovered pieces of a flying saucer in 1947.

They also said that, in 1978 a UFO researcher -- they can't call me a nuclear physicist of course -- Stanton Friedman talked to Marcel and started looking for other witnesses. You can see the sequence developing: Angry old man goes to the National Enquirer, and stupid UFO researcher gets his leads from the National Enquirer.

Well, the facts are a little different. There was a story in the National Enquirer in 1980, after Bill Moore and I had talked to 62 people about this case. The point is the Air Force was telling a total untruth as they did in many other places in their report about Roswell, which came out September 8, 1994. I'm sick and tired of all the garbage that goes on out there.


www.ufoevidence.org...


Originally posted by Access Denied
Many so-called witnesses have come forward since 1978 and most if not all have been discredited including Marcel.

Besides Jesse, many of these witnesses were from the military including the 509th bomber group. But I guess we should blow these guys off too, just because you say so.

M/Sgt. Lewis S. Rickett: Counter Intelligence Corps, also describes the material as very strong and very light. He escorted Dr. Lincoln LaPaz to the debris field. While flying over the area, he said they found a spot that looked like where the UFO might have landed, and they found more debris and burn marks.

1st Lt. Robert Shirkey: assistant operations officer at the 509th, describes the flight that Marcel took to FW. He said they were carrying strange pieces of metal with them.

S/Sgt. Robert A. Slusher: from the 393th Bomb Squadron, describes a crate flown out of RAAF in a B-29. The crate was 12 feet long, 4 feet tall, and 5 feet wide. He said they flew to Fort Worth, accompanied by 4 MP’s in the cargo hold, and had to stay below 5,000 ft.

Sgt. Robert E. Smith: member of 1st Air Transport Unit, helped load debris in crates into 3-4 C54 cargo airplanes, claimed he saw foil like material that flattened itself out, and made a crackling sound like cellophane. Described the largest crate was 20 feet long, by 4-5 feet high and 4-5 feet wide.

Capt. Oliver Wendell “Pappy” Henderson: veteran pilot at RAAF, said he flew debris and bodies, as told secondhand by his dentist John Kromschroeder four years after Pappy died. He told several people that he saw the craft and bodies, after the Roswell story broke, and was in all the papers.

Sgt. Melvin Brown “Brownie”: a cook at RAAF, said he was called to help clean up debris, and while riding in the back of a truck saw alien bodies.

B.Gen. Arthur E. Exxon: commander of WPAFB, was a Lt.Col. at the time, saw results from testing of strange material recovered from Roswell and said it was concluded it was from “the recovery of a craft from space”.

These are my own brief descriptions of witness testimony taken from:
“Crash at Corona”, Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner, Marlowe & Company, 1992.
“UFO Crash at Roswell”, Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt , Avon Books, 1991.

I find it just as hard to believe that all these guys were making up this story, than to believe an alien craft had crashed. This doesn’t include the countless civilian witnesses. I won’t add Col. DuBose, because I have heard just opposite story, that he did say the debris was switched. I will have to look into that.


Originally posted by Access Denied
You see this is where your (Rudiak's?) theory makes no sense. Think about it... why would AAF Intelligence who you claim was involved in this elaborate disinformation campaign to create "tabloid style" news reports "before, during, and after Roswell" to try and explain away UFO reports as mistaken weather balloons suddenly issue a press release right in the middle of all this declaring a saucer was captured? Not very intelligent if you ask me. If that's what really happened in Roswell you'd think they would have kept a lid on it!

The press release of a recovered disc was made by Col. Blanchard who asked the PR officer Haught to release it because it was SOP in keeping the community informed with happenings at the base. It was not released or approved by “AAF Intelligence”. If there was a disinfo program in place, he was unaware of it, and so was Jesse who was the intelligence officer on the base. I think there may have been a disinfo campaign to calm the people, but it was started after the fact, but that is my own opinion. Your reasoning only makes sense if Col. Blanchard would have been aware of said disinfo campaign.


Originally posted by Access Denied
What we are left with is Brazel’s original statement to the press that describes nothing more fantastic in my mind then a crashed balloon and what has become perhaps the greatest myth of modern times.

I would agree that from the RDR interview, it doesn’t sound like much, and matches the description of a weather balloon and Rawin target, but it also does not sound like he is describing a Mogul balloon train either. Besides what was mentioned already, if it were a Mogul balloon train, or a balloon and rawin target, why all the other descriptions of the debris as being something that exploded and fell to the ground? Weather balloons, Mogul or otherwise don’t explode.


Originally posted by Access Denied
Well if your big conspiracy theory was correct then apparently Brazel either didn't listen very well or take their threats seriously enough and you didn't read the entire interview...


Interview with Mac Brazel
Roswell Daily Chronicle, July 9, 1947

Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.

"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon," he said. "But if I find anything else besides a bomb they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything about it."


So before your saying that what crashed was a weather balloon, and now your quoting that Mack is saying that it wasn't. How does this prove Roswell was a hoax?

Most have come to the conclusion that this was a scripted interview, and Frank Joyce, the reporter at KGLF radio station, said he had changed his story. I like to think the last statement was in defiance, but that is my own opinion. I think they told him to say it was a weather balloon, but that would make him look foolish, now wouldn't it?


Originally posted by Access Denied
Now will the real Roswell please stand up!

Could it be that the story has changed over time just because more information is made available?

In conclusion, you could argue the case either way, and I don’t think it will ever be proven, but if it were proven false, doesn’t mean it was a hoax. A hoax would imply all these witnesses were lying, and not simply mistaken. That is just as hard to believe.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by Access Denied

lost_shaman,

I'm sorry but I can't help thinking your choice of that oxymoron for a name seems a little apropos in this case.


(that's a complement by the way)


Thanks, but you know a shaman can be "lost" and that really is not a contradiction. i.e. not an oxymoron.

However, I appreciate the compliment.










Anyway...

Do I need to draw you a picture? Here's a little experiment you can try. Go out in the biggest field you can find and measure off "about" a 200 yard diameter circle. Now scatter some random pieces of rubber, tinfoil, paper, and sticks inside that circle with at least 3 of those pieces on opposing points on the circumference. Viola! You now have yourself a 200 yard diameter "debris field" to study. Observe that the "debris field" may grow even larger if the wind is blowing.


Yes , you can measure out a 200 yard diameter debris field, and spread debris around as you will.

The problem is that a MOGUL Train would not create a 200 yard diameter debris field.





Except for the fact that there is no documentation for a MOGUL Flight # 4. And there is Documentation for every other MOGUL Flight , even failures like one that was only airborne 16 mins.

(We have positively been able to exclude everyone of the Known MOGUL Balloon Flights.)
= lost_shaman

I don't know where you're getting your "facts" from but I'm afraid you've been led astray. That is simply not true!


Fine , have you seen the NYU records?

Show me how MOGUL Flight # 4 , was documented just like every other MOGUL Flight ( Both Success and Failure.)

Here is a quote from you right from this thread.



There are no records for flight #4 in the NYU reports.







Absolutely you should but that's not what I meant by "who cares". It was about splitting hairs. I think one risks missing the bigger picture if one spends too much time looking through a microscope.


Exactly, kinda like focusing only on what the Air Force report by Lt. Col. James McAnrews say's and defending it blindly as fact would be like "looking through a microscope"?





No matter how you slice it , Roswell was at the very least a Military dis-information campaign about "Discs".= lost_shaman

I disagree of course, all the evidence I've seen points to a UFOlogy disinformation campaign, but I'm glad to hear you're at least able to consider the possibility that's all it was.



At the time UFOlogy did not even exist! However , the military knew about the "discs" at the time and where certainly "debunking" "Discs" at least 48 hours after Ken Arnolds Sighting was published. Everything I talked about here is History not speculation.




P.S. Nice work on the shuttle screen captures! Some of those shots are stunningly beautiful.

Ad Astra!


Thanks.



[edit on 7-7-2006 by lost_shaman]



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