Roswell Proof: Where is it?

Originally posted by Access Denied

Wrong again. He mentions it here on another page…

Popular Roswell Myths

Scroll down to “Myth #10: Huge security measures were taken to protect the retrieval of the saucer.”

Wrong how?

TP is talking about a Military "Cordon" of the Area and Rickett is talking about 25-30 men around the perimeter of the debris field with 4-5 men near the gouge.

And TP's only mention in that section you cite of Rickett is this...

Bill Rickett described being stopped prior to getting to the debris field when he went out with Sheridan Cavitt on the 8th of July.

Would you like to rephrase that maybe?

Of course not!

Here is what Tim Printy say's phrased in his own words.

However, I produce this to help inform those that wish to get a second opinion and understand all the events that had happened. I offer that opinion and have the sources to back it up. Unfortunately, the amount that is in these sources is not as informative as the direct quotes. I am not talking about edited documents but the ENTIRE story told by the witness. A web site with all these available would help immensely in amateur research (although I find Karl Pflock's two books on the subject very informative because he lists all the affidavits of the witnesses and some very good source documents). Some may feel that I have edited out a lot of the testimony but remember I am not here to support the theory of a crashed saucer. I feel many of these people exaggerated the facts and some are just plain lying.

So if it doesn't support Tim Printy's theory , he decides its lies, it's edited out because he's not writting these articles to support "the theory of a crashed saucer".

Of course he's supporting Robert Todd's MOGUL theory.

Most noteworthy is Robert Todd, who has endured my questions and provided a wealth of documents for me to peruse through and clear up some misunderstandings.

Tim Printy and the Air Force Report's Star witness is C. B. Moore. Moore explains in his Interview from the Air Force Report that Robert Todd had already convinced him that MOGUL was responsible for Roswell.

Moore said in the interview " Todd. Todd does everything."

And of course C. B. Moore's '94 interview affirms Robert Todd's MOGUL theory , but only after C. B. Moore is "convinced" by Todd sometime in '92 MOGUL Balloons were responsible for Roswell.

Facts About Mogul Balloon Trains


* Some Project Mogul balloon trains carried "Reward Tags," which offered rewards to anyone who recovers a downed Mogul balloon train. Notes were also carried aloft on Project Mogul balloon trains requesting that anyone who finds a downed Project Mogul balloon train to please protect it and notify the proper authorities.


* Project Mogul balloon trains and their equipment were tagged and labeled as government property.


* Some Project Mogul balloon trains carried questionnaires for anyone who recovers a downed Project Mogul balloon train. Among the typical questions asked,


1. What was the date and hour of the recovery?

2. If decent was observed, did the balloon train descend rapidly or slowly?

3. At what location was the balloon train recovered.


Those were some of the questions asked for anyone who recovered a downed Project Mogul balloon train. With those facts at hand, it is inconceivable that any person would have confused a typical experimental balloon train that was no more classified than a common weather balloon, as a flying saucer, especially since the balloon trains were covered with labels identifying equipment as those of earthly origin but the fact of the matter is, no equipment associated with any Project Mogul balloon train was ever reported to have been recovered on the Foster ranch.

The sequence of Mogul balloon flights is as follows:

A, B, 1, 5, 6, 7, 8,

Mogul balloon flight operations first took place in the northeastern part of the United States but high winds interfered with those balloon flights so Project Mogul balloon operations were moved to New Mexico after the failure of Mogul balloon flight #2, whose data was not recorded in the record books because of its failure.

Project Mogul balloon flight #3 was cancelled on June 3, 1947 due to clouds and Project Mogul balloon flight #4 was also cancelled due to clouds on June 4, 1947. The next Project Mogul balloon flight that actually got off the ground was balloon flight #5 on June 5, 1947 and that is why the Project Mogul balloon flight data records begin with Project Mogul balloon flight #5 (note the gap between Mogul balloon flight #1 and #5).

On June 4, 1947, only a service balloon flight took place and it was flown just to test the single sonobuoy that was carried aloft that day. In the Project Mogul record book, that service balloon flight was not recovered because the balloon team saw no reason to recover any service balloon flights and that is the reason why that balloon particular flight was left to flow with the wind. It carried no rawin device of balsa wood and metal foil, as its only cargo was that single sonobuoy and nothing else.


So now, you know that rest of the story as to why there are gaps between Project Mogul balloon train #1 and balloon train #5.

Source.

Project Mogul Flight Data Record


To sum it all, up, the Project Mogul balloon train #4, which the Air Force attributed to the Roswell incident, never flew. It shouldn't be of any surprise since the Air Force convinced the public for 47 years that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident until it admitted in 1994 that no weather balloon was responsible. The Air Force then changed its explanation to a Mogul balloon train #4 that never flew and the amazing thing about it is, the Air Force convinced the public again that it was.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Here is what Tim Printy say's phrased in his own words.

However, I produce this to help inform those that wish to get a second opinion and understand all the events that had happened. I offer that opinion and have the sources to back it up. Unfortunately, the amount that is in these sources is not as informative as the direct quotes. I am not talking about edited documents but the ENTIRE story told by the witness. A web site with all these available would help immensely in amateur research (although I find Karl Pflock's two books on the subject very informative because he lists all the affidavits of the witnesses and some very good source documents). Some may feel that I have edited out a lot of the testimony but remember I am not here to support the theory of a crashed saucer. I feel many of these people exaggerated the facts and some are just plain lying.

So if it doesn't support Tim Printy's theory , he decides its lies, it's edited out because he's not writting these articles to support "the theory of a crashed saucer".

Of course he's supporting Robert Todd's MOGUL theory.

Most noteworthy is Robert Todd, who has endured my questions and provided a wealth of documents for me to peruse through and clear up some misunderstandings.

Tim Printy and the Air Force Report's Star witness is C. B. Moore. Moore explains in his Interview from the Air Force Report that Robert Todd had already convinced him that MOGUL was responsible for Roswell.

Moore said in the interview " Todd. Todd does everything."

And of course C. B. Moore's '94 interview affirms Robert Todd's MOGUL theory , but only after C. B. Moore is "convinced" by Todd sometime in '92 MOGUL Balloons were responsible for Roswell.

I consider Charles Moore part of the Roswell cover-up and it's amazing that he got upset because the Air Force didn't take him serious enough when he reported his own UFO sighting over New Mexico.

He does a very thorough job of debunking that whole scenario in my opinion I might add. Maybe you should read it.

Good thing you threw in the O word there AD. Otherwise we might confuse your opinion with Printys.
It's seems the big problem with the evidence for Roswell is in the interpretation. And I'm quite sure we could continue into the ad infinitum with how we interpret the witness testimony and the various theories that suggest possible conclusions.
I look at the evidence for the Mogul and find it sadly lacking. Access Denied on the other hand looks at the same evidence and sees a pile of......balloon debris.
Now I wouldn't think to claim it were some ET crash. But I do feel certain it wasn't a Mogul.
Oops did I come round to 'let's agree to disagree'?

And here are NOAA weather maps from June 3rd and 4th 1947 that show it was cloudy on both days in question that MOGUL Balloon Flights were canceled due to Clouds.

June 3rd 1947 1:30 am

June 4th 1947 1:30 am

[edit on 18-7-2006 by lost_shaman]

I"ve dealt with Robert Todd, Tim Prinity, and James Oberg on prior occasions and found that in regards to the UFO enigma, they don't deal in facts.

Thank you for that information!

Little do people know is that one of the important attributes of the U.S. Air Force is the art-of-deception.

The Air Force convinced people for 47 years that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident knowing that explanation was untrue and then convinced the public again on a Project Mogul train that never flew after admitting that no weather balloon was involved.

In 1997, the Air Force threw another "curve ball" by claiming that alien bodies of 1947, were accident victims and test dummies of the 1950's and many people took the bait once again as Air Force generals gave themselves "high fives" for pulling another fast one over on the public.

Truly amazing how easily the Air Force is able to fool the public on the Roswell incident.

"It just shows the biased view of the USAF report, so in my opinion, they are committing the same crime that they are
accusing the “promoters” of doing. To use a quiche, it’s like the pot calling the kettle black. " == Hal

The USAF report has a biased directive and format from Congress, the USAF has very little room to maneuver there,
where as the "promoters" have no restraints, and it shows. The USAF must use credible sources and primarily from
their own "required" documentation. The "promoters" are totally free to use any source, including fantasy, as long as it "sells". The
USAF does not profit from their "reports". The "promoters" make a living and reputation from theirs. Not exactly
a match, I would think ?

"Then why would you make a reference to the NI in the report, unless you wanted to associate the authors with the NI to try to discredit them?" == Hal

Very good question. I would not expect to see that mention at all, given that it is not normally a listable item under "references". I have
not yet found anything in the Congressional requests and GAO requests that needed the USAF to address the UFOlogy community. If there
is something there, such a reference was necessary. It could also be an "easter egg".
But I do not see where it "discredits" anyone. If so, who and how ?

"The lack of references such as the Roswell books that were written prior to the report shows that maybe they didn’t even read them.
How can you say the report was a serious investigation into the Roswell incident if they didn’t even reference any books that pertain to the subject?" == Hal

Wow. The USAF should have used UFO books to answer congress? Gads ! Thats worse than using the NI. But you can bet they read them.

"And just for the record, if I were to get in front of Congress, you better buy stock in that popcorn, because Roswell would be the least of their problems." == Hal

Can't wait....you working on a topic for a new thread ?

Originally posted by nightwing

"The lack of references such as the Roswell books that were written prior to the report shows that maybe they didn’t even read them.
How can you say the report was a serious investigation into the Roswell incident if they didn’t even reference any books that pertain to the subject?" == Hal

Wow. The USAF should have used UFO books to answer congress? Gads ! Thats worse than using the NI. But you can bet they read them.

Actually there is a list of Books reviewed on Page 15 of the report. One of which was "Roswell Incident" Berlitz , Moore (1980).

That book clearly references Stanton Friedman's 1978 interviews of Jesse Marcel. Somehow , despite using it as a reference the Air Force report mis-states Friedman's involvement.

"The experiment was part of an 18-month $200,000 cosmic ray research program being conducted under a contract with the Office of Naval Research. "
From Skyeagle reference.

That aint Mogul.

"The Mogul project was so classified and compartmentalized that even Moore didn't know the project's name until Robert Todd informed him of it a couple of years ago.
The unclassified purpose of the project was to develop constant-level balloons for meteorological purposes.... Its classified purpose was to try to develop a way to monitor
possible Soviet nuclear detonations with the use of low-frequency acoustic microphones placed at high altitudes."
www.csicop.org...

Originally posted by nightwing
"The experiment was part of an 18-month $200,000 cosmic ray research program being conducted under a contract with the Office of Naval Research. "
From Skyeagle reference.

That aint Mogul.

nightwing,

It's only not MOGUL by name alone. It was the Cosmic Ray Balloon trains that MOGUL first used in the Spring and in June as a "stop-gap" until the Non-extensible plastic balloons were delivered.

"Remember Tim Printy's biased opinions are not fact's , even if he states them as such." == lost_shaman
"And neither are yours or Rudiak's, even if you state them as such. " == Access Denied

Those statements are true of everyone in here. The difference is that some of you provide references which
do indeed back your opinions (high level). Others merely state absurdities derived from retrospective falsification which
is the basis for most UFOlogy, and until corrected, NOTHING can be determined. Abuse of the term "fact" cannot
resolve Roswell. Determining what really are "facts" just might. I would define a fact for this discussion to be some form
of legal documentation that notes an event in terms of date, location, and event data. In terms of testimony, a sworn affidavit
would be a fact, however the CONTENTS OF THE TESTIMONY ARE NOT FACTS. The credibility of a witness has
NOTHING to do with the credibility of the testimony. Anything more tangible than testimony is IMPORTANT. Example:

Marcel went back to Washington on 26 Dec 1948 with the 1009th Special Weapons Squadron where he was made officer
in charge of the war room. Intelligence Branch, Operations Division. His squadron was responsible for operating the Long Range Detection Program (LRDP)
which in turn was responsible for alerting the United States to atomic explosions anywhere in the world, including especially the Soviet Union.
(This appears to be another close encounter with mogul. Mogul was just one of the techniques that fed their detection data to this squadron
but the squadron did NOT know the details of the information source.) Credit for data source = = lost_shaman, for his research find of
Marcel's discharge form (kudos !)

I usually avoid mixing multiple points in a single post but,
"It was the Cosmic Ray Balloon trains that MOGUL first used in the Spring and in June as a "stop-gap" ..." == lost_shaman

Project Mogul was a classified mission and TECHNIQUE. Cloud chambers to detect cosmic rays and the use of
microphones to look for channeled sound are NOT the same. Not Mogul.

Originally posted by nightwing
The USAF must use credible sources and primarily from
their own "required" documentation. The "promoters" are totally free to use any source, including fantasy, as long as it "sells". The
USAF does not profit from their "reports". The "promoters" make a living and reputation from theirs. Not exactly
a match, I would think ?

I agree that the USAF would (and should) be required to use more credible sources than that of the promoters, but both have received the same scrutiny after publication. But in my opinion, the reference to NI was rather loose language and smacks of personal opinion and bias. Not very scientific.

But I do not see where it "discredits" anyone. If so, who and how ?

I already explained in my earlier posts. You already know, I am refering to SF, but you want to keep going around in circles. I have made my point, so let's move on, shall we?

Wow. The USAF should have used UFO books to answer congress? Gads ! Thats worse than using the NI. But you can bet they read them.

I said they had obviously read them, because they at least had the year 1978 correct, but thought they did not reference them, but lost_shaman shows that at least one was referenced.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Actually there is a list of Books reviewed on Page 15 of the report. One of which was "Roswell Incident" Berlitz , Moore (1980).

Thanks for that, and your other excellent posts.

Can't wait....you working on a topic for a new thread ?

No, I was referring to more current political issues. It wouldn’t belong in this forum, and never have enough time to go into it.

Regards.

Originally posted by Access Denied

AAF headquarters later revealed that a "security lid" has been clamped on all but the sketchiest details of the discovery.

This would tend support both the MOGUL and UFO explanations but of course you already know which one I favor… by this time (3 weeks later) Ramey undoubtedly knew it was part of a sensitive project.

I would agree, it would support either theory, but this article was published July 9th, 1947, after Mack reported it 2 days prior, so Ramey had just become aware of it. I believe this was also prior to the Ramey deflates balloon article. but that is a minor detail.

AAF spokesmen would say only that the "saucer" was a flimsily-constructed, kite-like object measuring about 25 feet in diameter and covered with a material resembling tinfoil

Unfortunately we don’t know who all these “AAF spokesmen” (implying more than one) were. The very next sentence specifically quotes Ramey via telephone but that doesn’t mean he was the one who said it. I believe 25 feet in diameter is the size Cavitt gave for the debris field so maybe he or someone else was misquoted?

Well I doubt Cavitt was talking at this time, but as you said it could have been a misquote. With all the conflicting information, it seems this was all reported before being confirmed, which may be why not very many people take this article seriously.

AAF commanders in New Mexico refused to permit the object to be photographed on the grounds that it was "high level stuff,"

I would assume that was due to an order from Ramey (or Blanchard?) who wanted it delivered to him for identification first before allowing it to be photographed just in case it was of a sensitive nature… probably just standard procedure.

I agree, that’s possible, especially if they had the press conference being planned at that time.

Part of the reason why so many have come to accept MOGUL as the only explanation that fits the actions and descriptions of the most credible witnesses is it makes sense that nobody knew exactly what is was until it got to Ft. Worth because those involved up until that point evidently had never seen a RAWIN target before.

From what I understand, whether the folks at RAAF knew about Mogul and Rawin targets is a matter of debate.

It is pretty a confusing case… much less so I've come to find out once you’re able to separate yourself from what you may have taken for granted (i.e. learned from popular culture or from reading biased books and opinions exclusively) and stop trying to scrutinize and interpret everything as possible evidence for/proof of a crashed UFO

I understand what you’re saying, and respect that position, but I also find it annoying when Mogul supporters use the same biased tactics that they accuse the believers of, when they are the ones that claim to be scientific.

Regards.

[edit on 7/19/2006 by Hal9000]

You may wish to consider the words of Jesse Marcel Jr. recently

"What I saw in the material... it was some very exotic
material... there was a lot of foil," Marcel said. "There were
some beams that had some strange writing on it and I realized
right off the bat this was not anything I'd ever seen before."

When asked what the symbols on the beam looked like, Marcel said
that "there were some mathematical symbols... geometric forms."

cbs4denver.com...@kcnc.dayport.com

It's from a Denver tv interview he did for the International UFO Symposium at
the Marriot Denver in the Tech Center a couple of days ago.
His statement of the geometric shapes makes me suspect a possible connection with the Oak Island glyphs. Or maybe the Dropa stones.
None of the evidence points to Mogul.

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Let's talk about paying attention then...

I was paying attention the problem is it's irrelevant

Apparently whoever wrote this article didn't see what I pointed out to you Access Denied , when I pointed out that David Rudiak has posted pictures and transcripts of an article from the same News Paper that J. Bond Johnston worked for on July 11, 1947 that shows a Mobile RADAR launching un-pigmented Neoprene's and RAWIN RADAR Targets from Ft. Worth , Texas.

So what? There is NO evidence to support yours or anybody else's theory that the debris that was photographed was switched and didn't come from Roswell. These theories are all based on conjecture and Marcel's claim that we were. Marcel's a proven liar and his claims contradict the evidence...

Tim Prinity can't accept reality for what it is. I supplied references to actual documents proving that no Mogul balloon train was ever involved in the Roswell incident because I have direct contact with the U.S. Air Force and Tim Prinity dismissed the factual NYU data evidence on Project Mogul. In other words, he won't accept factual data on UFOs no matter what the evidence, which proves to me that he is not a viable researcher at all who can't be taken seriously.

NYU's Project Mogul balloon flight records show that the flight for Mogul balloon train # 4 was cancelled due to clouds, which proves that Tim Prinity is on the wrong side of the fence of reality siimply because Mogul balloon # 4 never flew and that is why you won't find any flight data records for Mogul balloon # 4 in any of the Mogul balloon flight data records because of the fact that it never flew hence could not have been responsible for the Roswell incident. In other words, the Air Force lied in its 1994 Roswell report on Project Mogul.

Project Mogul balloon trains were not classified and often recovered by civilians for monetary rewards after answering the quiestionaire that was attached to Mogul balloon trains, which proves that Mogul balloons were not classified objects at all. Add to the fact the military knew nothing of any crash on the Foster ranch, which effectively proves beyond any doubt that what crashed on the Foster ranch had nothing to do with the military.

A classic case where the Air Force deliberately lied about Project Mogul, and add to the fact the Air Force lied for 47 years that the a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident.

According to Jesse Marcel, the debris he posed with was not what he recovered on the Foster ranch.
____________________________________________________________________

Jesse Marcel---The infamous photograph of Brigadier General Roger Ramey displaying the wreckage was unquestionably a fake, staged later "strictly for the press."

Thomas Dubose---"The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press."

Arthur Exon---"Concerning the cover-up, Exon pointed out that there were no secret balloon or weather devices that could account for the debris. The lab men and officers at Wright Field, because it was their job, would have known if the debris fit into those categories. The balloon explanation was ready-made. "Blanchard could have cared less about a weather balloon," said Exon.
____________________________________________________________________

So, the debris in Ramey's office is that of a weather balloon. In 1994, the Air Force stated in its Roswell report that no weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident after all, which simply means that the weather balloon debris in Ramey's office was put there as a cover-up and not what was recovered on the Foster ranch according to Lt. Haut, Colonel Dubose, Jesse Marcel and General Arthur Exon

[edit on 19-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

There was no cover-up. Due to a huge comedy of errors (see my previous posts) involving rancher Mac Brazel, Maj. Jesse Marcel, other military personnel and the press, an inaccurate story was published on July 7th, 1947 in the newspapers claiming the military had recovered a crashed “flying saucer”. What was recovered in fact were the misidentified remains of a crashed balloon and radar target from a classified project.

That is not correct. The military knew nothing of any crash on the Foster ranch until a civilian notified them. Proof that object that crashed there had nothing to do with the military.

This weak semantic argument is the one most commonly used to try and discredit the AF report.

The Air Force discredited its own report. Remember, the Air Force also discredited itself when it claimed for 47 years that a weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident. That was a cover story that came from Washington D.C., not from Roswell AAF. Before the 1994 report, I was debating the Roswell skeptics that no weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident but the skeptics cited undeniable evidence that it was a weather balloon. When I asked them where did they get their evidence, they cited the Air Force, the same organization that later admitted that no weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident but what happened to the skeptic’s undeniable evidence that it was a weather balloon?

There was a flight on June 4th and it’s the only flight recorded in Dr. Crary’s journal between Flight 3 and 5. All balloon flights done during Project MOGUL were numbered sequentially therefore the flight on June 4th is “MOGUL” Flight 4.

The Mogul balloon flight records show that Mogul balloon train was cancelled and never flown. That is why there are no flight data records for Mogul balloon flight #4 because it never flew.

In fact the AF report does provide a record of MOGUL Flight 4 from Dr. Crary’s journal. There is no record of Flight 4 in the NYU reports because Flight 4 ended up being a “service flight” instead due to clouds. The same is true for Flight 2, 3, and 9.

That was not Mogul balloon train #4 that flew on June 4,and that was just a service flight. Mogul balloon train #4 was made up similar to Mogul balloon train #2 and that service balloon resemble neither balloon train #2 nor #4 and it didn’t carry any rawin devices. The fact that Mogul balloon train #4 was canceeled on June 4, indicates why there are no flight data records for Mogul balloon flight #4. In fact, the balloon team decided to let the service balloon drift away because according them, there was no reason to recover service balloons unlike Mogul balloon trains.

The service flight carried only a single sonobuoy and nothing else.








[edit on 19-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

I want to also emphasized that the Air Force would never have taken a civiilan, in this case, Rancher, "Mac" Brazel, into custody for a week over the recovery of a Mogul balloon train. Other civilians, such as Rancher, Sid West, who recovered a downed Mogul balloon trains, were rewarded and not taken into military custody as was the case with Brazel, which means that Brazel was taken into military custody beause he was in fact a witness to a downed 'flying saucer' and the military forced him to change his story as indicated by Frank Joyce who interviewed Brazel twice and noted that Brazel's first account had changed after he was released by the military. In reply to Frank Joyce in regards to the aliens, he stated "they weren't green."


To further add.

____________________________________________________________________

WALTER HAUT

(1996 video, "Sightings: The UFO Report") ([Marcel in 1980] told Walter Haut that there really was a flying saucer crash.) "He made statements to the effect that it was nothing of this world. It couldn't be bent, torn, cut, pierced, burned . . . he went through a whole list of them. He said, 'We just don't have the technology to produce material like I brought in from that ranch.'"

___________________________________________________________________

[edit on 19-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

Originally posted by Access Denied

The flight on June 4th could not account for the debris found on Brazel’s ranch because it was only a “service flight” which wasn’t configured like the drawing of MOGUL Flight 2 in the AF report that clearly shows RAWIN targets weren’t used and Flight 5 was the first “MOGUL” flight in NM which did.

While it’s true Flight 5 was the first “constant level” balloon flight in NM to use RAWIN targets, the “service flights” also used RAWIN targets.

How did you get that wrong?

Flight # 5 didn't carry RAWIN Targets. And the NYU records even drew a picture.

Flight # 5 is listed as the first Flight to be observed and tracked by Theodolite.

Accourding to the NYU Records only Flights # 75 , and # 86 were tracked by RADAR.