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Originally posted by Access Denied
My assertion is this confirms the conclusion of the SECRET Twining letter that states there was no physical evidence availible to prove their existence.
Garrett's July 30, 1947 report
From detailed study of reports selected for their impression of veracity and reliability, several conclusions have been formed:
(a) This “flying saucer” situation is not all imaginary or seeing too much in some natural phenomenon. Something is really flying around.
(b) Lack of topside inquiries, when compared to the prompt and demanding inquiries that have originated topside upon former events, give more than ordinary weight to the possibility that this is a domestic project, about which the President, etc. know.
(c) Whatever the objects are, this much can be said of their physical appearance:
1. The surface of these objects is metallic, indicating a metallic skin, at least.
2. When a trail is observed, it is lightly colored, a Blue-Brown haze, that is similar to a rocket engine’s exhaust. Contrary to a rocket of the solid type, one observation indicates that the fuel may be throttled which would indicate a liquid rocket engine.
3. As to shape, all observations state that the object is circular or at least elliptical, flat on the bottom and slightly domed on the top. The size estimates place it somewhere near the size of a C-54 or a Constellation.
4. Some reports describe two tabs, located at the rear and symmetrical about the axis of flight motion.
5. Flights have been reported, from three to nine of them, flying good formation on each other, with speeds always above 300 knots.
6. The discs oscillate laterally while flying along, which could be snaking.
www.ufoscience.org...
But in the summer of 1947 the formal operation called Project Sign was not yet in existence. Reports of flying disks were coming from everywhere, but the investigation of these reports was disorganized. The Pentagon, through Schulgen, responded first as the natural focal point. AFOIR-CO was given the initial responsibility in the person of Lt. Colonel Garrett. He, Taylor, and Schulgen began to try to get their bases to investigate notable cases and forward the reports. They also enlisted the FBI, who assigned Special Agent S. W. Reynolds as the liaison. They began working furiously on this throughout July, involving Wright-Patterson now and then by direct communication with McCoy.
As July wore on into August, Garrett, Schulgen, and Reynolds became confused by a lack of interest and pressure emanating from the high echelons of the Pentagon. The previous year they had gone through an investigative furor about a subject that they considered to be similar to the flying discs, when hundreds of “ghost rocket” reports came out of Sweden and other European countries. In 1946, the top brass had exerted continuous pressure to find an answer, but now it had gone completely quiet. This puzzling void has been termed “the silence from topside.” It was very peculiar to Garrett and the FBI. Their mutual suspicion was that the very highest officials knew what this phenomenon was already.
Originally posted by nightwing
"BRIG.-GENERAL ARTHUR EXON
BRIG. GENERAL STEVEN LOVEKIN
DR. ROBERT SARBACHER
JUNE CRAIN " ==skyeagle409
Interesting stories and some even sound familiar. This is also an example of hear-say.
Just because you have typed it here with credible names and positions adds nothing.
What is your source that it can be looked at and evaluated for credibility ?
If you are using the Disclosure Project, there are some serious credibility issues
there already. We need to know that.
WALTER HAUT
I have a different question here. Walter Haut gave many different and conflicting
testimonies during his life. If this is the testimony version you attribute to him,
why and how do you discard his other testimonies ? What filter did you use ?
Walter Haut variable testimony discussion
www.virtuallystrange.net...
Originally posted by nightwing
"BRIG.-GENERAL ARTHUR EXON
BRIG. GENERAL STEVEN LOVEKIN
DR. ROBERT SARBACHER
JUNE CRAIN " ==skyeagle409
Interesting stories and some even sound familiar. This is also an example of hear-say.
Hearsay? I don't think so! After all, we can track military actions during and after the Roswell incident to make a determination that what took place at Roswell involved no typical weather balloon nor that of any experimental balloon for that matter. After all, it wouldn't have taken cargo flights to fly the crash remains to Wright-Patterson AFB to ascertain that they were typical balloons--weather or those of Project Mogul.
Just because you have typed it here with credible names and positions adds nothing.
It does if you follow the facts where they lead! I have already uncovered unrefuted evidence that no balloon of any kind was ever involved in the Roswell incident so now, we must take another look at the Air Force's first news story, the recovery of a downed flying disk.
What is your source that it can be looked at and evaluated for credibility?
Source? Funny as it may seem, the Air Force but I must add, New York University as well.
If you are using the Disclosure Project, there are some serious credibility issues there already. We need to know that.
No, I am not using the Disclosure Project as indicated from my sources above but I find it interesting that you brought up the Disclosure Project because I am very familiar with some of those case files there were presented there and can confirm that they took place as reported so in that regards those cases that I am referring to have no credibility problems. I can use official Air Force and other government documents to prove the incidents happened as reported.
[edit on 22-7-2006 by skyeagle409]
Originally posted by Access Denied
And you may also wish to consider the 'memories" of the B-29 pilots of the 509th...
Kent also spent some time talking to the still living crews of the 509th and asked many about the Roswell Incident. He talked to 15 B-29 pilots and 2 B-29 navigators and this is what he was able to determine:
AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT SMITH
1) My name is Robert E. Smith
(
(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air Field as a member of the 1st Air Transport Unit. I worked in the cargo outfit with C-54s. My involvement in the Roswell incident was to help load crates of debris on to the aircraft.
roswellproof.homestead.com...
AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT SHIRKEY
(1) My name is Robert Shirkey
((7) Several days later, a B-25 was scheduled to take something to Ft. Worth. This was the second flight during this period: the third was a B-29 piloted by Oliver W. "Pappy" Henderson directly to Wright-Patterson.
roswellproof.homestead.com...
5.6 Robert Porter
[M/Sgt Robert Porter was a B-29 flight engineer with the
830th Bomb Squadron.
We flew these pieces. [Some officers in the crew] told us
it was parts of a flying saucer.
Of course, the Air Force wouldn't have spent thousands of dollars to fly a typical non-classified Mogul balloon train to Wright-Patterson AFB to ascertain what it was.
Originally posted by Access Denied
[
Have you even bothered to read through this entire thread? The Air Force didn't make up what the first hand witnesses (those who are still credible) describe. Debris from a crashed MOGUL balloon train is the only thing that fits their descriptions and the photos.
You can choose to believe otherwise if you wish.
Originally posted by longhaircowboy
You may wish to consider the words of Jesse Marcel Jr. recently
Kent Jeffrey focused mainly on Jesse Marcel Jr. and Irving Newton. Both are known to have handled the debris but did they handle the same debris? Jesse never recalls seeing any of the special tape with purple figures on it. His recollections are that the figures were painted or embossed on. Jeffrey explains how he resolved this inconsistency:
Originally posted by Access Denied
Please stop posting the same material that we've already covered over and over again. Thank you.
Originally posted by Access Denied
Smith may have flown to Kirtland but not in 1947. A C-54 could not land at Kirtland during this time period because the runway was too small! This in itself makes Smith’s story extremely questionable and, more than likely, memories from some other event.
Originally posted by Access Denied
[Please do your homework first (that means researching to find out if there's any opposing viewpoints or facts) before trotting out yet another same old tired so-called witness.
Thank you.
Originally posted by Access Denied
I never said those orders were unclassified. The point I was trying to make is they fully acknowledged it and made no effort to conceal the fact they wanted to get their hands on a UFO. If they had a found a UFO in Roswell why would they cover it up?
Originally posted by Access Denied
Right but what you failed to point out (a deliberate omission on your part?) about this "important" piece of information is what else it says...
Originally posted by Access Denied
Please read the following information about the many problems with his and the other stories and then come back and tell us how YOU propose to resolve all these inconsistencies...
Loading Freight
This is a really interesting story. I like the idea of a top-secret convoy of trucks with flashing lights/sirens though. There is nothing like drawing attention to a top-secret convoy. He adds that security personnel were setup to prevent interference from outside. Smith rattles off the names of the crew for the aircraft, including Henderson, but for some reason does not mention the name of the mysterious sergeant, who showed him the materials from the spaceship. One must wonder, who this person is. Certainly, his picture would have been in the RAAF yearbook and Smith could identify him.
However, Smith was not actually at the crash site. This is also contradicting Frank Kaufmann’s statements that they used a heavy-duty vacuum cleaner to suck up all the little parts and pieces. Whatever Smith adds to the tale is more confusing that confirming. His story contradicts that provided by others and the lack of a name for the mystery sergeant makes it even more unbelievable. Smith may have flown to Kirtland but not in 1947. A C-54 could not land at Kirtland during this time period because the runway was too small! This in itself makes Smith’s story extremely questionable and, more than likely, memories from some other event. Perhaps Smith is recalling shipment of some atomic weapons. The security would be warranted and could explain the descriptions of "investigators".
This is yet another example of something that sounds good on the surface but really starts to fall apart under serious scrunity... it just doesn't add up!
Originally posted by Access Denied
I never said those orders were unclassified. The point I was trying to make is they fully acknowledged it and made no effort to conceal the fact they wanted to get their hands on a UFO. If they had a found a UFO in Roswell why would they cover it up? It makes no sense in the context of the official policy in place at the time.
Originally posted by Access Denied
Originally posted by Hal9000
If something were recovered at Roswell then I would think they would continue to recover as many as possible. Maybe the order to shoot them down was in response to what was found at Roswell? Just throwing out that possibility.
I doubt it… it was more likely in response to the number of credible sightings coming in at the time… many from their own.
Originally posted by Access Denied
Originally posted by Hal9000
These documents you’re referring to, give more support to your point, but it should be pointed out that they are related.
The first of these memos were the Schulgen Memo, and then the Twining Memo was written in response. Then the Walker Memo was a response to the Twining Memo.
Right but considering the position these people were in and the fact none of them up and down the chain knew anything about a recovery is what’s significant.
Originally posted by lost_shaman
[As soon as Ken Arnold's sighting made headlines , a week before the Roswell events , Gen Ramey and his Intel Chief Col. Kalberer quote "Poohed" the Disk's in the Papers. With Col. Kalberer citing Orson Well's radio broadcast and the panic it created and attempted to sooth the public's fears that "we're not being invaded by little platter-like planes from Mars."
roswellproof.homestead.com...
Originally posted by Access Denied
Originally posted by lost_shaman
However, Smith was not actually at the crash site. This is also contradicting Frank Kaufmann’s statements that they used a heavy-duty vacuum cleaner to suck up all the little parts and pieces. Whatever Smith adds to the tale is more confusing that confirming. His story contradicts that provided by others and the lack of a name for the mystery sergeant makes it even more unbelievable.
Smith contradict's Frank Kaufmann , Go Figure!
Too funny. I think Printy probably put that in there to illustrate the "quality" of the second hand witness testimony and remind us that at one time Kaufmann was used by the great Roswell authors/researchers to prop up the case.
For those who don’t know what we’re talking about…
Frank Kaufmann (aka Steve McKenzie) Exposed!
Originally posted by nightwing
"Tim Prinity is not credible considering that I caught him "red-handed" distorting the facts on UFOs and the Roswell incident." == skyeagle
Unlikely. Here is how you do it for everyone to see. You have already shown me, in this forum, that you have a problem with facts.
On the contrary, I am right on the mark. Go to his website and see what he claims was responsible for the Roswell incident.
I rest my case.