Roswell Proof: Where is it?

Originally posted by lost_shaman

Originally posted by skyeagle409

Project Mogul balloon flight # 4 was cancelled due to clouds and only a simple service flight with a single sono buoy was launched, not the Mogul balloon train # 4 that Charles Moore claimed was made up similar as Mogul balloon train # 2.

Hey skyeagle409,

I agree with you.

Charles S. Shneider , MOGUL Project Manager, had been told less than two weeks before the Alamogordo trip on May 20th 1947 by the CAA that MOGUL trains had to be launched in Cloudless Skies. And that NOTAM's (Notice to Airmen) were to be issued.

Dr. Crary's daily Journal clearly states that June 3 Balloon Flight was "abandoned due to cloudy skies" and then again on June 4 that "No Balloon flight again on account of Clouds". Those two entries clearly refer to MOGUL Balloon train flights.

When they do actually launch a MOGUL Balloon Train it is documented clearly in Dr. Crary's Journal. " June 5 Thurs. Up at 4 to shoot 2 charges for balloon flight. Whole assembly of constant-altitude balloons set up at 0500."

Also the Air Force Report cites MOGUL Progress report 6 , sect. II , p. 5 as the basis for the configuration of the supposed MOGUL flights # 3 and # 4 , when it is actually a description of MOGUL Flight # 5 ( the first MOGUL flight at Alamogordo ) as it describes the Radiosonde/Ballast configuration Flight # 5 used.

I never believed for an instant that a Project Mogul balloon train was involved in the Roswell incident. That story wes made up by the Air Force as was its weather balloon story and the amazing thing about it all is that Charles Moore, one of the Mogul balloon team members, got upset because the Air Force didn't take him seriously when he reported a UFO over New Mexico.
____________________________________________________________________

UFO Sightings by Mogul and Skyhook Balloon Personnel

"One very famous Mogul sighting involved Charles Moore on April 24, 1949. An additional irony here is that this is the same Charles Moore that has been trying so hard in the present-day to debunk the Roswell case as one of his Mogul balloons."

" Moore's sighting was written up in the equally famous 1952 LIFE Magazine article of high-quality UFO reports and in a 1950 TRUE Magazine article by Naval Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, head of the Naval missile program at White Sands (who unequivocally stated that the flying saucers being spotted by White Sands personnel, including himself, were not only real but extraterrestrial in origin)."

"Moore's sighting is also found in a number of government documents, including those of the CIA, whose scientists were very impressed by it."


roswellproof.homestead.com...
____________________________________________________________________


So here are cases where those balloon team personnel who were watching the skies, also saw many UFOs over New Mexico and reported them.

In regards to the Roswell investigations, the Air Force was impeding research efforts into the Roswell incident so here comes Congressman Steve Schiff to the rescue but unfortunately, the Air Force impeded his efforts to investigate the Roswell incident as well, so he called in the GAO, who was told by an Air Force officer that they had no business getting into the Roswell investigation. The GAO then found that records relating to the Roswell incident were destroyed or missing without authorization.

A classic case of a government cover-up effort on the Roswell incident.

"That is not correct. The military knew nothing of any crash on the Foster ranch until a civilian notified them. Proof that object that crashed there had nothing to do with the military." == skyeagle409

It is more referenced and backed up than refuting replies so far. You state it is incorrect because "your assumption" is "proof" it is not military. Assumptions are not "proof" of anything. In
this case, even if your assumption is correct, it does not prove lack of ownership on any party. Even "spring-heeled jack" could not leap that far.

"I want to also emphasized that the Air Force would never have taken a civiilan, in this case, Rancher, "Mac" Brazel, into custody for a week over the recovery of a Mogul balloon train." == skyeagle409

Nor any other civilian for ANY reason. Posse Comitatus applies here. If Mack (correct spelling) went to the base, he was invited and NOT in custody, lest the military have a law suit on their
hands they cannot win. Not to mention the Emminent Domain law suits they were already in over the taking of private lands to form White Sands Missile Range. The really absurd thing about
the Roswell story is just how incompetent the military apparently acted, DESPITE the FACT that there were LEGAL means to actually DO all the things that Roswell proponents claim the
military accomplished, all of which would have been Congressional level complaints and illegal. Anybody care to take a whack at how the military could have LEGALLY accomplished a
real "alien" recovery in 1947 at Roswell, and to at least have had a crack at keeping it secret for a while ? Hint, it is in Posse Comitatus, which resulted from the US Civil War aftermath.

Originally posted by nightwing

Anybody care to take a whack at how the military could have LEGALLY accomplished a
real "alien" recovery in 1947 at Roswell, and to at least have had a crack at keeping it secret for a while ? Hint, it is in Posse Comitatus, which resulted from the US Civil War aftermath.

I love a good challenge.

But first let me lay out a possible alternative that would accomplish that goal.

In WWII Capt. Frank T. McCoy organized TAIU units that had orders signed by General Douglas MacArthur that authorized intelligence personnel to "take complete charge of all enemy crashed or captured aircraft or personnel." ( 1 )

Assuming that order was never rescinded or that a similar order* was in place it would have allowed ATI personnel to come in take control of the scene. And the way the order was worded also allowed the recovery teams to commandeer personnel and equipment and do that without a need for authorization from Higher Headquarters. i.e. No paper trail. If they needed a Plane or Trucks or people they just came in and took charge.

That even explains why Col. Blanchard would be able to go on leave at the time he did , as he wouldn't have been in charge.

* There is a possibility a similar order such as this would have been in effect for the Interplanetary Phenomena Unit that presumably had been organized sometime in the latter part of WWII and the Army claimed it was dis-banded in the '50s





[edit on 20-7-2006 by lost_shaman]

"I love a good challenge. " == lost shaman

I know. Thats why I push you so hard at times.


"But first let me lay out a possible alternative that would accomplish that goal. "

Actually, your first alternative is not a bad try for the challenge. Its in the right direction. But you
went down a one-way street against the arrow.

"In WWII ....had orders signed by General Douglas MacArthur ..." == lost shaman

I extracted the key statements you made for clarity. Yes, we were at WAR then. General MacArthur was eventually the commander of the Pacific Theatre.
He had "authority" to issue such orders for the Pacific Theatre. Any order authorized by him does NOT extend outside the Wartime Pacific Theatre. Nor
could he rescend an Act of Congress, even during War. The Posse Comitatus Act was the result of the military "policing" of the conquered South during and
after the Civil War. There are many fascets to it, but it was designed to end military authority over civilians within the borders of the US, EVEN DURING WAR.
There are some exceptions, like the National Guard under the "authority" of the Governor of the state they serve in, and so on, including national disasters.

Lets examine this segment.

"take complete charge of all enemy crashed or captured aircraft or personnel"

If this were allowed to violate Posse Comitatus during wartime, explain why the FBI had total authority over "FuGo" crashes within the US. By your
assumed extension of the order, would not these TAIU units be running all over the western US recovering these "enemy aircraft" ? And why would
they be operating out of Australia by your reference ? California would seem more appropriate ?

"That even explains why Col. Blanchard would be able to go on leave at the time he did , as he wouldn't have been in charge. " == lost shaman

Wow. You lost me there. There is no way I read that to even make sense. You must have left something out.

"....for the Interplanetary Phenomena Unit that presumably had been organized sometime in the latter part of WWII ..."

Big Grin ! I presume this is a reference to Chris Roth's "ultraterrestrial hypothesis" from the Martians-Go-Home newsletter ?

"That even explains why Col. Blanchard would be able to go on leave at the time he did , as he wouldn't have been in charge. " == lost shaman

Wow. You lost me there. There is no way I read that to even make sense. You must have left something out.

What I was saying is that if someone or Unit came in from outside of Roswell AAF and took control, Col. Blanchard is free to go on leave. He did go on leave July 9th. In order for the cover to work if there was something being recovered , you can't have Col. Blanchard canceling his scheduled leave and Meetings with the NM Governor because he's dealing with a recovery of a weather Balloon that was already "recovered" and identified in the Press.

Big Grin ! I presume this is a reference to Chris Roth's "ultraterrestrial hypothesis" from the Martians-Go-Home newsletter ?

Actually no. Haven't heard of that, I'll look into it.

If this were allowed to violate Posse Comitatus during wartime, explain why the FBI had total authority over "FuGo" crashes within the US.

That's a good point, yet I'm reminded of a Memo written by J. Edgar Hoover in July 1947 that stated the Army swiped up a "Disk" and refused to let the F.B.I. examine it. In that case it was clearly not a time of war and was also on U.S. soil.

Even skeptics argue the F.B.I. was "butted out" and that the Army took sole control.

members.aol.com...

This point is brought out in two other FBI memos, one dated July 24 (E. G. Fitch to D. M. Ladd), the other late on July 7. In the former the writer refers to Hoover's note in the first paragraph and then goes on to say that the military has promised complete cooperation in the future and that "all discs recovered be made available for examination by FBI agents," thus clearly implying that this had not been the case up to then.

The July 7 memo, also to Ladd, gives further evidence of the lack of FBI access to the prank disc. The Army took sole charge.

So what happened between "Fugo" Balloons and July 1947 that allowed the Army to "Legally" take sole charge" of "Disks" on U.S. Soil?



[edit on 20-7-2006 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by nightwing
"That is not correct. The military knew nothing of any crash on the Foster ranch until a civilian notified them. Proof that object that crashed there had nothing to do with the military." == skyeagle409

It is more referenced and backed up than refuting replies so far. You state it is incorrect because "your assumption" is "proof" it is not military. Assumptions are not "proof" of anything. In this case, even if your assumption is correct, it does not prove lack of ownership on any party. Even "spring-heeled jack" could not leap that far.['quote]

If the military knew nothing of any crash on the Foster ranch, then what crashed there had nothing to do with the miilitary. If the military loses a stealth fighter, it will definitely know that it is missing. In the case of the Roswell incident, the military knew nothing so logic would simply state that the object was not that, of a military project.

"I want to also emphasized that the Air Force would never have taken a civiilan, in this case, Rancher, "Mac" Brazel, into custody for a week over the recovery of a Mogul balloon train." == skyeagle409

Nor any other civilian for ANY reason. Posse Comitatus applies here. If Mack (correct spelling)

Correction, it is not spelled "Mack" he was referred to as "Mac." I had it right the first time.

...went to the base, he was invited and NOT in custody, lest the military have a law suit on their hands they cannot win. Not to mention the Emminent Domain law suits they were already in over the taking of private lands to form White Sands Missile Range. The really absurd thing about the Roswell story is just how incompetent the military apparently acted, DESPITE the FACT that there were LEGAL means to actually DO all the things that Roswell proponents claim the military accomplished, all of which would have been Congressional level complaints and illegal.

Let's see what the facts are.

____________________________________________________________________

Roswell Incident: Mac Brazel

"Before EITHER of the July 8th or July 9th "news" articles were published in the Daily Record it was known Brazel, who basically lived in a ramshackle ranch house eight miles from his nearest neighbor and had no telephone, electricity or running water, was picked up from his ranch and taken to the house of the owner of the local Roswell radio station, KGFL, to be interviewed. A wire recording of the interview was made, but because KGFL had signed off for the day the station planned to broadcast it the next morning."

"Before it could be used Brazel was taken into custody by members of the military police and his exclusive interview confiscated. The Federal Communications Commission (reported to have been through the office of T.J. Slowie, secretary of the Commission, but never admitted to by himself or confirmed by the Commission) warned station personnel that the matter involved national security and should KGFL air any portion of his interview, or issue any information regarding it, they would lose their broadcasting license.

"Sometime later Brazel showed up at KGFL escorted by military officers, where he then told the "truth" about the debris found on his ranch. Brazel refuted his initial story, claiming now, after being taken into custody and while STILL under custody, that he first found the debris MID-JUNE, 1947 and NOT on the morning of Saturday, July 5, 1947, and that it was simply a weather balloon."

The military took Mac Brazel into custody for about a week, during which time he was seen on the streets of Roswell with a military escort. His behavior aroused the curiosity of friends when he passed them without any sign of recognition. Following this period of detention, Brazel repudiated his initial story."

www.qsl.net...
____________________________________________________________________



[edit on 20-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

[quote Anybody care to take a whack at how the military could have LEGALLY accomplished a real "alien" recovery in 1947 at Roswell, and to at least have had a crack at keeping it secret for a while ? Hint, it is in Posse Comitatus, which resulted from the US Civil War aftermath.


Forget the "Posse Comitatus." The military in those days didn't care about any legal issues if they interfered with its overall mission. We can look at the soldiers who were exposed to radiation from nuclear test and not told of the hazards they faced and the experiment off the coast of San Francisco where the military sprayed the air with viruses to test the effects on the civilian population, just to name a few incidents. The Roswell cover-up was a 'walk in the park" because in those days and even today, the public will believe anything the military says without realizing that an important attribute of the U.S. military is the 'art of deception." After all, the military convinced the public for 47 years that a weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident and then admitted in 1994 that it wasn't a weather balloon that was involved in the Roswell incident and to further add, the military convinced the public that the Roswell aliens people saw in 1947 were accident victims and test dummies of the 1950's.

I guess that if the military told the public that the reason a B-747 crashed in Nevada in 1994, was because it was shot down over Berllin in 1944. Sounds silly? Well, look at the Air Force's 1997 Roswell report on alien bodies.

After all, the military convinced the public for 47 years that a weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident and then admitted in 1994 that it wasn't a weather balloon that was involved in the Roswell incident and to further add, the military convinced the public that the Roswell aliens people saw in 1947 were accident victims and test dummies of the 1950's.

The military never convinced me that it was a weather balloon. I've read and reread all the testimony involved and nothing leads me to the conclusion that it was anything other than what was described. You guys can bang yer heads against the wall all day long and it won't yield a better answer. Other than a soft spot on your skull.

Originally posted by longhaircowboy

After all, the military convinced the public for 47 years that a weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident and then admitted in 1994 that it wasn't a weather balloon that was involved in the Roswell incident and to further add, the military convinced the public that the Roswell aliens people saw in 1947 were accident victims and test dummies of the 1950's.

The military never convinced me that it was a weather balloon. I've read and reread all the testimony involved and nothing leads me to the conclusion that it was anything other than what was described.

Well, it definitely wasn't a balloon of any kind. After all, it wouldn't have taken several cargo plane flights to fly the crash debris to Wright-Patterson AFB, OH to find out what the object was

Mogul balloon train #4, the balloon train the Roswell skeptics like to refer to as responsible for the Roswell incident, never flew and that flight was cancelled due to clouds. That is why researchers cannot find any flight data records for Mogul balloon train #4 because that object never left the ground.

All the researchers had to do was to read the Project Mogul balloon flight records to see that balloon flight #4 was cancelled.

Originally posted by nightwing
Anybody care to take a whack at how the military could have LEGALLY accomplished a
real "alien" recovery in 1947 at Roswell, and to at least have had a crack at keeping it secret for a while ? Hint, it is in Posse Comitatus, which resulted from the US Civil War aftermath.

I agree, that this is a good point. If an alien craft actually did crash within the US, then under Posse Comitatus, would fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI.

I’ll take a shot at it anyway. It would take either an Act of Congress or a Presidential Order to make it legal. In order for the military to be used for law enforcement purposes, Martial Law must first be declared. Although, today I am sure they could say that an alien crash would be a national security issue, so just about every law can be over-ridden.

en.wikipedia.org...

I also find it interesting that not long after the Roswell incident that the National Security Act of 1947 was signed, which restructured the Intelligence Community and started the NSC and CIA, as well as create the Air Force into a separate branch of the military. Coincidence?

en.wikipedia.org...


Here is a good point Access Denied brought up in the first post, and so far no one has challenged it in this thread.

Originally posted by Access Denied
Ironically, the same official documents that the proponents of Roswell use as “proof” of their theories also indicate that no extraterrestrial craft or bodies had been recovered.

What Did the Air Force Really Know?

WANTED: One flying saucer in operable condition. No questions asked. Contact USAF.
General Nathan F. Twining described this in SECRET letter from the Air Material Command (Wright-Patterson AFB where the saucer supposedly went for analysis) that was dated September 23, 1947 (less than three months after Roswell). The subject of this letter was, "AMC Opinion Concerning Flying Saucers". In this memo, Twining concluded that, "The phenomenon reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious". However, he does goes on to say, "There is a possibility that some of the incidents may be caused by natural phenomena, such as meteors". Does Twining mention any recently recovered crashed discs? He states clearly toward the end of the memo that consideration must be given that, "THE LACK OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE IN THE SHAPE OF A CRASH RECOVERED EXHIBITS which would undeniably prove the existence of these objects". Does this sound like a man who had in his possession an actual crashed saucer? It is also interesting to note that the letter never states that the objects are suspected to be from outer space. All the authors quote this document as an indication that flying saucers were real. However, in The Roswell Incident, UFO Crash at Roswell, and Crash at Corona, all the authors omit the section concerning the lack of crashed exhibits! Talk about your cover-ups! This is a purposeful omission on the part of the authors to only tell one version of the story. They prey on the gullibility of the reader not to investigate further.

I thought Stanton Friedman’s response to this challenge of the Twining Memo shows just what the military is capable of, and is relevant to the same Posse Comitatus argument.

Because many people saw and felt the first nuclear explosion at
Trinity site in July, 1945, the base commander issued a press
release saying that an ammunition dump had blown up, but
fortunately nobody was injured.. It was a total lie.

I have the clippings. Sometimes it was necessary to lie for
national security interests. The government initially lied about
Gary Powers U-2 flight.. blown off course by the wind.. until
Khruschev provided the plane, pilot, and camera.

Let us not be naive.

STF

www.virtuallystrange.net...

It shows that at that time everyone trusted the government and the military, so whatever they said was accepted, unlike today’s scrutiny. After all, they just won WW2 and defeated two enemies, so why would we question them?

This is also why I find it difficult to simply disregard the testimony from the witnesses that support a UFO crash. Sure they were in the middle of a sensationalized UFO wave, but people back in those days were more down to earth. They are known as the “greatest generation”, which I happen to also agree with.

How can you take the word of a USAF investigation conducted by people who weren’t there, and disregard witness testimony from people that were?

Originally posted by Hal9000

Here is a good point Access Denied brought up in the first post, and so far no one has challenged it in this thread.

Access Denied said:
Ironically, the same official documents that the proponents of Roswell use as “proof” of their theories also indicate that no extraterrestrial craft or bodies had been recovered.

What Did the Air Force Really Know?

WANTED: One flying saucer in operable condition. No questions asked. Contact USAF.
General Nathan F. Twining described this in SECRET letter from the Air Material Command (Wright-Patterson AFB where the saucer supposedly went for analysis) that was dated September 23, 1947 (less than three months after Roswell). The subject of this letter was, "AMC Opinion Concerning Flying Saucers". In this memo, Twining concluded that, "The phenomenon reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious". However, he does goes on to say, "There is a possibility that some of the incidents may be caused by natural phenomena, such as meteors". Does Twining mention any recently recovered crashed discs? He states clearly toward the end of the memo that consideration must be given that, "THE LACK OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE IN THE SHAPE OF A CRASH RECOVERED EXHIBITS which would undeniably prove the existence of these objects". Does this sound like a man who had in his possession an actual crashed saucer? It is also interesting to note that the letter never states that the objects are suspected to be from outer space. All the authors quote this document as an indication that flying saucers were real. However, in The Roswell Incident, UFO Crash at Roswell, and Crash at Corona, all the authors omit the section concerning the lack of crashed exhibits! Talk about your cover-ups! This is a purposeful omission on the part of the authors to only tell one version of the story. They prey on the gullibility of the reader not to investigate further.

Must have slipped past me.

The answer is quite simple. A Document classified SECRET can not contain TOP SECRET or higher information. If there had been a recovery it would be classified higher than SECRET. Thus if you only have SECRET Clearance , then you still get the lie that we don't have anything even if we do.

You'll also notice the TOP SECRET edition of this same document has never been declassified and released to the public.

[edit on 20-7-2006 by lost_shaman]

"You may wish to consider the words of Jesse Marcel Jr......" == longhaircowboy

And this thread as well
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just to throw out a curio, note the discussion about Col. Jesse Marcel Jr, USAF (Army?) retired, last called for
active duty for Afganistan ?

Welcome to the formation. I see you figured out what I meant. Next is skyeagle. This thread is rapidly
becoming a good reference piece for me, and hopefully others. Show where the opinions come from.
Perspective AND context. That is the formation if you are a researcher and willing to share.

"If Mack (correct spelling... == nightwing
Correction, it is not spelled "Mack" he was referred to as "Mac." I had it right the first time." == skyeagle409

Wanna see a picture of his Gravestone, skyeagle ? This is a fact. Tangible, it exists, you can photo it etc...
Its a "data" point. Mack, not Mac. Sorry to dissappoint.
www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk...

"Forget the "Posse Comitatus." The military in those days didn't care about any legal issues if they interfered with its overall mission." == skyeagle409

Translation, forget facts, lets all continue to fantasize, and indulge in retrospective falsification. I am not slamming you skyeagle. You seem to be knowledgable
enough about the topic to provide more than just selected second-hand quotes. To make a Case for Roswell, hear-say won't cut it. To go beyond that
and actually Prove something, then Testimony won't cut it. The folks that are beginning to seriously engage in here, both pro and con, are collectively
yielding new ideas about Roswell. So take the chip off your shoulder, grab an oar and pull with us. RAM speed !

Originally posted by Access Denied

Right, in fact Moore said the reason #5 didn't use RAWIN targets was precisely because of their inability to track #4 on RADAR which was only their 3rd flight in NM.

Let me refer you to something nightwing just said.

nightwing said : To make a Case for Roswell, hear-say won't cut it. To go beyond that
and actually Prove something, then Testimony won't cut it.

Also you should keep in mind that C. B. Moore also stated he didn't have a direct memory of a Flight # 4.

And the Air Force argues that Roswell witnesses all suffer from Time Compression of memories , but of course C. B. Moore would be imune to that right?

I’ll take your word for it

Don't take my word for it. Its in the report , Index of Flights.



[edit on 21-7-2006 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by Access Denied

There’s at least two reasons I can think of right away why your theory doesn’t work:

1. The only two people who claim to have read a copy of Project Sign’s TOP SECRET “Estimate of The Situation” said nothing about a recovery either.

First, I never said that a "recovery" would be classified TOP SECRET either , most likely if there was a "recovery" it would be classified higher than TOP SECRET.

Also , even if Ruppelt did read the TOP SECRET EOTS and it did say something , it's still classified and Ruppelt couldn't just talk about it freely even if he wanted to.

2. Considerable effort was made after this to shoot one down and no effort to conceal this fact from the public was made. How soon we forget history.

I find that to be irrelevant to the Roswell events.

That’s because according to Ruppelt when it reached Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg he rejected it and ordered it declassified and all copies of it (with the possible exception of one I hear) burned. I guess it pissed him off… some people have no sense of hunor

I doubt he would be PO'ed as he was aware of Roswell events as evidenced in the Papers at the time. Even actively looking into the Disk Phenomena.

www.roswellproof.com...

In 1946, when Vandenberg was Director of the Central Intelligence Group (the CIA's predecessor), he had sent Gen. Doolittle to Europe to look into the so-called Scandanavian "ghost rocket" situation, the first major post-war UFO incident. Exactly what Doolittle might have learned and reported back to Vandenberg has never been disclosed. However, Gen. David Sarnoff (founder and President of RCA), who accompanied Doolittle, was later quoted as saying the objects were "real missiles."

It would seem whatever was discovered in Europe , Vandenberg was able to do a good job of keeping the "lid on it".

"most likely if there was a "recovery" it would be classified higher than TOP SECRET." == lost shaman

I am surprised. I haven't seen you make that type of assumption for awhile. If you could actually prove
such a thing, it would be possible to apply public pressure for Congressional review and see if national
security guidelines are being abused.

Best local reference
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Q clearance discussion
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"I find that to be irrelevant to the Roswell events." == lost shaman

Again I am surprised. Its all from the same data set. I think you been up
too late. You need sleep. (Smile)

Originally posted by nightwing
"I find that to be irrelevant to the Roswell events." == lost shaman

Again I am surprised. Its all from the same data set. I think you been up
too late. You need sleep. (Smile)

It is late and I haven't had any coffee, let me rephrase.

It is irrelevant , with respect to highly classified information not being included in lesser classified documents , if they tried to shoot UFOs down and the public knew about it.




[edit on 21-7-2006 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
It is irrelevant , with respect to highly classified information not being included in lesser classified documents , if they tried to shoot UFOs down and the public knew about it.

It’s absolutely relevant to your belief that a crashed UFO was recovered in 1947 and it was classified TOP SECRET. If that’s the case then why would they be trying so hard to shoot down UFOs after 1947?

I thought your point was that they had orders to try and shoot them down, but these orders were not classified. But now it sounds like your saying they were trying to shoot them down because they had not recovered anything at this point? I don't see how this proves your point. If something were recovered at Roswell then I would think they would continue to recover as many as possible. Maybe the order to shoot them down was in response to what was found at Roswell? Just throwing out that possibility.

These documents you’re referring to, give more support to your point, but it should be pointed out that they are related.

The first of these memos were the Schulgen Memo, and then the Twining Memo was written in response. Then the Walker Memo was a response to the Twining Memo.

Originally posted by nightwing
"You may wish to consider the words of Jesse Marcel Jr......" == longhaircowboy

And this thread as well
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I like this his comments here, better.


DR. JESSE MARCEL JR

(Examined debris when his father awoke family at 2 a.m. 11 years old in 1947)


(8) My father said the debris was recovered from a crash site northwest of Roswell. He felt it was very unusual and may have mentioned the words "flying saucer" in connection with the material. He was certain it was not from a weather balloon.

Welcome to the formation. I see you figured out what I meant. Next is skyeagle. This thread is rapidlybecoming a good reference piece for me, and hopefully others. Show where the opinions come from.
Perspective AND context. That is the formation if you are a researcher and willing to share.

Wanna see a picture of his Gravestone, skyeagle ? This is a fact. Tangible, it exists, you can photo it etc...
Its a "data" point. Mack, not Mac. Sorry to dissappoint.
www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk...[/qoute]

We can go here to see "Mac" as well.


WILLIAM BRAZEL JR.

(Mac Brazel's adult son in 1947; returned to ranch while father was incarcerated by military and found some scraps of debris left behind after military cleanup):
(F&B) "[There were also] some wooden-like particles like balsa wood in weight, but a bit darker in color and much harder.... It was pliable but wouldn't break. Weighed nothing, but you couldn't scratch it with your fingernail. All I had was a few small bits. [There was no writing or markings on the pieces I had] but Dad did say one time that there were what he called "figures on some of the pieces he found. He often referred to the petroglyphs the ancient Indians drew on the rocks around here as "figures," too, and I think that's what he meant to compare them with."

Translation, forget facts, lets all continue to fantasize, and indulge in retrospective falsification. I am not slamming you skyeagle. You seem to be knowledgable
enough about the topic to provide more than just selected second-hand quotes.

Yes indeed! Not only do I have direct contacts within the Air Force, where much of my information came from, but I have been of service to the Air Force for almost 40 years and was once part of a government cover-up so I am well-aware how government cover-ups are concocted.

To make a Case for Roswell, hear-say won't cut it. To go beyond that
and actually Prove something, then Testimony won't cut it. The folks that are beginning to seriously engage in here, both pro and con, are collectively
yielding new ideas about Roswell. So take the chip off your shoulder, grab an oar and pull with us. RAM speed !

Actually, I don't have an "ax to grind" but I am here to put forth UFO reality for what it is. I became an UFO researcher about 12 years after my own UFO sighting over Phan Rang airbase, Vietnam in 1968. That incident was covered up and never revealed to the public. Since then, I have uncovered facts and data from the Air Force proving that no Project Mogul balloon train #4, which the Air Force attributed to the Roswell incident in its 1994 Roswell report, never flown and was actually cancelled due to weather and that, according the NYU's Project Mogul flight data records and that is why you will never find any flight data records on the internet or otherwise as pertaining to Project Mogul flight #4 because that flight never took place but the Air Force managed to pull its false story through anyway.

The bottom line is, I know much more about UFO reality than I have reavealed on this message board.



[edit on 21-7-2006 by skyeagle409]

Originally posted by Access Denied

Common sense should tell you after reading these that the evidence is clear no craft had been recovered….. there were still debating whether or not the phenomena was even real!

BRIG.-GENERAL ARTHUR EXON

[Exon was stationed at Wright Field at the time of the crash. From 1964-69 he was the Commanding Officer of Wright-Patterson AFB, where crash material was taken in 1947.

(R&S2) "We heard the material was coming to Wright Field. [Testing was done in the various labs.] Everything from chemical analysis, stress tests, compression tests, flexing. It was brought into our material evaluation labs. I don't know how it arrived, but the boys who tested it said it was very unusual."

".A couple of guys thought it might be Russian, but the overall consensus was that the pieces were from space. ...Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space."


General Arthur Exon, was the military officer who overflew the Roswel crash site in an aircraft and confirmed two crash sites.



BRIG. GENERAL STEVEN LOVEKIN

(A Disclosure Project witness, Lovekin has recently testified to being intensively briefed on the UFO phenomenon when he worked in the Eisenhower and Kennedy White Houses in the Army Signaling Agency. The following testimony was based on briefings he received at the Pentagon around 1959.)

"This piece of an extraterrestrial craft was a grayish foil-like material... it had been taken from one of the ET craft that had crashed in New Mexico




WALTER HAUT

(Haut was the Public Information Officer at Roswell AFB and released the flying disc story to the press on July 8, 1947, dictated to him by Roswell Commanding Officer Blanchard.)

(R&S1) "I've got to base what I'm going to say on what Jess Marcel told me. It was something that he had never seen and didn't believe that it was of this planet. I trusted him on his knowledge. He felt that it was something that was not made or mined or built or manufactured anywhere on this planet.




DR. ROBERT SARBACHER

[Sarbacher was a physicist and industrial scientist who acted as a consultant with the U.S. Department of Defense Research and Development Board (RDB). In numerous interviews, dating back to 1950 (e.g., see Wilbert Smith in Miscellaneous testimony), he claimed to have been on advisory boards dealing with crashed saucers, and that they and dead aliens did indeed exist.]

(From Whitley Strieber's "Breakthrough," 1995; phone interview 1986; in an e-mail, Strieber wrote the "quote" is from memory of the conversation, but fairly accurately representation of what he was told)

"That fabric we obtained at Roswell had molecular welds so small you couldn't even identify what they were until the sixties, when the microscopes to do it became available. ...What I can be certain about is that it was not produced by any technology we were aware of in 1947, or now."




JUNE CRAIN

(Crain was employed at Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio, from 1943 through 1952. Crain recalled that she saw and handled the following metallic debris in either 1951 or 1952 at Wright Field. Although it is not clear that the this debris is directly related to the 1947 Roswell event or some other event, the testimony is that the metal came from a spacecraft in New Mexico.

"I've never seen [anything like it since]. I always look at things, metal things and I still have that curiosity, because it still bothers me and I have yet to see anything that would have those properties and looks like that. And so light! [Was it slightly v-shaped, in a very slight curve?] Sort of a curve. ...it was practically indestructible. I even took the edge of the scissors and laid it on ... like this, and I whacked it like this, and I couldn't even make a dent in it. Just nothing. Cause he said tear it up, so I tried every thing I could to tear it up, and I couldn't tear it up. I couldn't make a dent in it; I couldn't make a mark on it.

[edit on 21-7-2006 by skyeagle409]