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Minutemen Gain Mainstream Appeal

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posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 08:28 PM
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The Minutemen border patrol project has been gaining a lot of support from people around the country. Most say they are joining because of their new views on immigration. However, some groups still dispute the Minutemen as a racist organization.
 



www.msnbc.msn.com
"Minuteman organizers say this spring’s marches have proved to be an unexpected recruitment tool for Americans who feel uneasy about the burgeoning immigration movement but may have considered the organization a pack of gun-toting vigilantes."

"The Minuteman Project first gained attention last year when Orange County resident and former tax accountant Jim Gilchrist helped lead its first 30-day patrol of the border in Arizona. The group has added mainstream political tools, including a network of local chapters and e-mail lobbying campaigns."

"But Heidi Beirich, deputy director of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Project, which monitors the Minuteman Project for racist rhetoric, said that estimate appears to be ridiculously high. She offered no estimate of her own.

“At the border during this last outing, they had maybe 50 people. If they have 200,000 people, it doesn’t seem right,” she said.

Beirich also questioned the premise that pro-immigrant rallies will help the Minuteman Project. She said many recruits may attend one or two rallies, but leave after they discover what she called the group’s extremist attitudes.

“They get in there and they’re like, ‘My God, I didn’t sign on for this,”’ she said."




Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


I really don't see the problem with the Minutemen. My cousin joined up with them last year and he invited me down to see what they do. (I had my doubts about the group.) Much to my surprise, they weren't the ignorant rednecks toting guns and shooting everything in sight. Most of the people I met were quite educated and said they went out of their way to avoid violence if possible. Granted like any group they have their nuts. But it's good to see a decent group stand up for a cause it believes in.

[edit on 26/4/06 by SFRemmy]

[edit on 26/4/06 by SFRemmy]

[edit on 26-4-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

[edit on 26/4/06 by SFRemmy]




posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 09:08 PM
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Way to go Minutemen.

I hear they are also working on a program where private property owners in AZ will allow them to install fences on their properties. I think they already have 25 miles lined up so they make the government look like fools there. I also recall they will have motion sensers that will sound alarms and more then likely theirs will work, unlike the governments versions that never did from day one. It is about time someone did something, the government sure will not.


Simcox said he hopes to hold construction costs to between $125 and $150 a foot, since labor and equipment will be donated.

The Minuteman group envisions fencing fashioned after an Israeli design.

It would include a 6-foot deep trench to keep vehicles from crashing through, concertina wire and two 15-foot-high heavy-gauge steel mesh fences with the tops angled outward and separated by an unpaved dirt road. It also would have inexpensive mounted video cameras.
www.alipac.us...


Sorry I cannot find the link that confirms the alarm part, but I did read it and do believe what was said.

[edit on 4/26/2006 by shots]



posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 10:06 PM
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I don't know where I sit on the "Minutemen" project yet. But it doesn't surprise me that someone from Orange County started it.

But I am glad that Southern Poverty Law Center is monitoring them. Because if they are righteous as they say they are and if an incident occurs between one member and an undocumented worker, then they will have the burden of proof to demonstrate that they are not a racist organization.

[edit on 26-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 10:40 PM
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I wonder if the Minutemen are like the KKK where every 3rd member was an FBI agent or some other style of informer.

One thing that the PTB dosen't like is a bunch of organized, armed guys talking about how the government isn't doing what they think it should be doing. Remember it wasn't that long ago that Koresh and Weaver learned the hard way.



posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 10:41 PM
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This is an incredibly important story whether or not we support the Minutemen. Reminds me of the rise of the KKK back in the early 1900's. Same issues, same manipulations, same response.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 04:20 AM
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That a bit ridiculus to compare the minuteman to the KKK.....

they arent sitting on the border burning crosses!!


they are simply acting when our government will not. Which I believe is a fundemental principal of americans.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 07:39 AM
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But, they are sitting on the border with their shotguns. That does tell me something. They are taking the law into their own hands instead of letting law enforcement do their job. Non-violent or not, this sets a problematic precedent.

In a way, they do remind me of the KKK. For both groups, common citizens fight a "racial menace" in order for "self-preservation" and Americanism. Except for all that I've heard about the Minutemen is that there is no Christian doctrine to back up what they are doing. But it's the harrassment of another race just the same. They are feeding into the frenzy of xenophobia and it is working.

What scares me is that with their position about illegal immigration and the easy acceptance for some to agree with what they are doing, they are opening up the flood gates for extremists to have open season on anyone with "brown skin" let alone any other race they don't like. To justify their behavior is also reflective to what the good "decent" folks did in the South while lynching and harassment went on with their knowing. Especially if members of the KKK were in important positions within town.

And the usual law-abiding folk congratulate them because they act out their fantasies of "purifying" the United States in a time of drastic social change and economic deficit. To me, the Minutemen are less worrisome than the silent minority who supports them. The silent minority who accepts and lauds their behavior are also willingly complicit in supporting the same "cold, subtle intimidation" that has wreaked havoc with race-relations.

It is equally scary to note in the article that Mr. Bush has tried to cater to them.

Same thing. Different era. Similar behavior.

I just wonder if there are chapters camped out on the borders of Canada willing to put a fence up there.








[edit on 28-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
But, they are sitting on the border with their shotguns.


Who have they shot? Who have they beat up? What law are they violating? And why would you even attempt to suggest that they let law enforcement “handle it”? Do you understand that the entire point of the Minutemen is to embarrass law enforcement/government into “handling it”? Apparently not.

Let me break it down for you (hopefully you won’t label me a racist and dismiss me too). The federal and various state and local governments have tied the hands of law enforcement to do anything about illegal immigration. The few border patrol agents we have aren’t capable of adequately repelling the flow of illegal immigrants. And, in some cases, they are told not to go after border-crossers. So, the Minutemen sit there “on the border with their shotguns.” They sit and wait. If they see someone illegally crossing the border, they sit there. They call the border patrol to come apprehend the person. In most cases they won’t even approach the person.

The primary aim of the Minutemen is the shame the government into policing the borders, providing the appropriate resources to law enforcement personnel, and getting rid of laws designed to protect illegal immigrants at the expense of law-abiding, taxpaying citizens. They don’t sit there for fun. They sit there in protest.


Originally posted by ceci2006
In a way, they do remind me of the KKK. For both groups, common citizens fight a "racial menace" in order for "self-preservation" and Americanism. Except for all that I've heard about the Minutemen is that there is no Christian doctrine to back up what they are doing. But it's the harrassment of another race just the same. They are feeding into the frezy of xenophobia and it is working.


In a way, YOU remind me of the KKK. Intolerant of the views of others, quick to point a finger at a group and blame them for things they aren’t doing, refusing to accept evidence to the contrary, and hoping for their downfall.

What these people do has ZERO to do with the KKK, the Nazis, or anything else. It has EVERYTHING to do with shaming the government into doing its job properly.


Originally posted by ceci2006
And the usual law-abiding folk congratulate them because they act out their fantasies of "purifying" the United States in a time of drastic social change and economic deficit. To me, the Minutemen are less worrisome than the silent minority who supports them.


Actually, I think the “usual law-abiding folk congratulate them because they are doing what the border patrol won’t/can’t do, and thus far they are doing it in a peaceful way. I can only assume from your pointing out that they are “law-abiding” folk, you recognize that no laws are being broken, and further, since you distance yourself, I have to wonder about your concern for the law.


Originally posted by ceci2006
The silent minority who accepts and lauds their behavior are also willingly complicit in supporting the same "cold, subtle intimidation" that has wreaked havoc with race-relations.


My friend, I’d say it’s the loud minority who DON’T accept and laud their behavior who are “willing complicit” (redundant, btw) in the same “cold, subtle intimidation…”

Why is it that you are so unwilling to believe that someone can be concerned about the immigration issue in the United States without them being a racist? Maybe, and I suspect this is the case, you KNOW FULL WELL that these people are not racists.

In fact, I think the real issue here is that you support illegal immigration, can’t find a logical basis for argument, and instead have to resort to one of the basest of the pathetic appeals, the so-called “race card.” It’s just easier to label anyone who dislikes illegal immigration as a racist, isn’t it? It is easier than thinking about the issues, isn’t it? It’s easier to lump everyone together and dismiss them, isn’t it?



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 01:02 PM
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Hamburgular,

You have made some interesting remarks about my assessment of the project. And it is fair to do so. I will answer you back, but I haven't much time to do it now. But I will lay it on the line before I make my other remarks.

1)You do not even know my views about illegal immigration. And if you had read my earlier posts, you would know.

2)I am not labeling anyone a racist. I just am troubled that the Minutemen's actions could help launch a new wave of racial extremism in a country torn apart by race.

3)And it must have certainly disturbed you because you might have found yourself amongst those good "decent" folk?

4)Again, if you have read my earlier posts, I never have espoused a view of being intolerant to the view of others. Most of the time, I've said, "If that's your opinion, fine." The people who have read what I've had to say over the months find that phrase (or phrases like it) more often than not repeated over and over. So, I'll say it in another post yet again: You have a right to your opinion. As I do mine.

I will answer you in full later.





[edit on 27-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 02:17 PM
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I do not trust the minuteman due to its shady beginnings and its founders.

But at least they are doing something that is needed and they are bringing the issue of our borders to front stage.

Yes, like any militia group I imagine that the FBI and other agencies are keeping very taps on what they do.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I do not trust the minuteman due to its shady beginnings and its founders.

But at least they are doing something that is needed and they are bringing the issue of our borders to front stage.

Yes, like any militia group I imagine that the FBI and other agencies are keeping very taps on what they do.


Minutemen are normal everyday people from every spectrum of skin color who are fed up with a foreign entity demanding citizenship, even though they went about it illegally. Normal everyday people... like me. One only has to go on the official Minuteman website (MinutemanProject.com) and read the Minuteman oath, see the actual Minutemen in action to see they aren't a militia, though some do arm themselves--a percentage of illegals do run drugs and are dangerous.
Confrontation with anyone entering illegally is strictly frowned upon, and violates the Minuteman code of ethics.
You summed up the Minuteman cause exactly: action IS needed and controlling our borders is an issue Washington has pooh-poohed for way too long. I shudder to think how many people who hate us also have crossed since Sept. 11, 2001.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 05:03 PM
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Why should Americans allow their government the luxury letting people who will work for slave labour wages into the country? If your government does not serve to protect your livelihood then your at some point going to have to do it yourself and the sooner the better and less violence it will take on your part to set the system back on track. I am glad some Americans are slowly waking up to the way their industrial base is being spirited to SEA and how the few remaining industrial/labour jobs are going to people who will work for almost anything.

Stellar



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by Hamburglar
Who have they shot? Who have they beat up? What law are they violating? And why would you even attempt to suggest that they let law enforcement “handle it”? Do you understand that the entire point of the Minutemen is to embarrass law enforcement/government into “handling it”? Apparently not.

Let me break it down for you (hopefully you won’t label me a racist and dismiss me too). The federal and various state and local governments have tied the hands of law enforcement to do anything about illegal immigration. The few border patrol agents we have aren’t capable of adequately repelling the flow of illegal immigrants. And, in some cases, they are told not to go after border-crossers. So, the Minutemen sit there “on the border with their shotguns.” They sit and wait. If they see someone illegally crossing the border, they sit there. They call the border patrol to come apprehend the person. In most cases they won’t even approach the person.



The primary aim of the Minutemen is the shame the government into policing the borders, providing the appropriate resources to law enforcement personnel, and getting rid of laws designed to protect illegal immigrants at the expense of law-abiding, taxpaying citizens. They don’t sit there for fun. They sit there in protest.

Excellent points, Hamburglar. Simcox has been known to kick people out of the Minutemen that want to break the law.


You have voted Hamburglar for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



from ceci2006
It is equally scary to note in the article that Mr. Bush has tried to cater to them.

You take an opinion piece as proof that Bush is trying to cater to them? If Bush were more agressive on the issue, the Minutemen would not be needed.


But I am glad that Southern Poverty Law Center is monitoring them. Because if they are righteous as they say they are and if an incident occurs between one member and an undocumented worker, then they will have the burden of proof to demonstrate that they are not a racist organization.

Emphasis added.

And does this door swing both ways? Should the illegal immigrants be forced to prove that they do not intend to break any of our laws?

This is America. We don't have to prove our innocence. Our accusers have the burden of proving our guilt.



I just am troubled that the Minutemen's actions could help launch a new wave of racial extremism in a country torn apart by race.
:
And the usual law-abiding folk congratulate them because they act out their fantasies of "purifying" the United States in a time of drastic social change and economic deficit. To me, the Minutemen are less worrisome than the silent minority who supports them. The silent minority who accepts and lauds their behavior are also willingly complicit in supporting the same "cold, subtle intimidation" that has wreaked havoc with race-relations.

The US "torn apart by race"? That's news to me.

And your statement about "law abiding folks with fantasies of purification" is way out of line. To label people that way is an insult.

It now costs Los Angeles County $276 million a year to pay for welfare services for anchor babies and their families. How much longer can we be expected to suffer such burdens without the top blowing off of tensions?


from soficrow
Reminds me of the rise of the KKK back in the early 1900's. Same issues, same manipulations, same response.


Whoa! What a stretch! And what bs!:shk:

[edit on 27-4-2006 by jsobecky]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 06:53 PM
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i think in the futcher the appeal for the minuteman and the like will grow to even more americans of all race's ,

that is if our goverment dont get this thing under control, or even worse if terrorist
are found to be crossing the boarder from mexico.


i have no problem with the mexican people ,but i wish that thay could understand
that america can nolonger have wideopen boarders, not after 9/11

and if thay realy want to be americans and loyal to america , why do thay march down our city streets with the mexican flag ?

i think maybe thay just want to work in america but stay loyal to mexico ? and i do have a problem with that especialy if thay got in under the radar.


if one wants to be a part of any country , one must respect thats country,s laws......



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:07 PM
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Hamburgular and jsobecky,

I want you both to notice two things that I have said in my posts. One, is that I felt that the Minutemen are "less worrisome" than the average citizen. The other thing is that I "sit on the fence" on the topic of the Minutemen. However, when I voice concerns about their actions, I get branded a racist, intolerant person. If not attacked for my figures of speech.

I expected that.

However, I never did say that the Minutemen did not have the right to patrol the border. My problem with their organization is that they set a dangerous precedent for intolerance and xenophobia going on in the country. When I read the Minutemen's pledge on their website, I did notice that it all looked good on paper. Heck. They even have Latina and Latino members in their Arizona chapter. And yes, I found out that the Washington Chapter patrols the Canadian border.

I am glad that there will be legal observers to view their behavior to see that they are on the up and up. And, knowing their security check procedures (give them $50 dollars for a background check and you're in the movement), I'm not sure that it will weed out extremists that might join their group for their own racist interests.

I also don't think what soficrow said was so wrong. As I read the blogs of Mr. Simcox as well as other members that participate in the Minutemen, they all agree that they are trying to fight for their "American way of life". That single phrase frustrates and bothers me. What I want to know is who defines the American way of life? What exactly does that mean?

As for playing the "race card", I feel that phrase to be fallacious because it tends to reflect that anything criticized in terms of its racial connection is to be dismissed. I find that Hamburgular's use of it to be typical of people who are afraid to confront their own views regarding race and racism. And as a result, they use the word as a point of attack when nothing else can support their feelings about the racial intent about the subject.

Believe me, when I say that it is probably within the Minutemens' First Amendement Rights to be there. In fact, for people who are interested, they can read Wikipedia's assessment of the Minutemen Civil Defense Group for themselves and make their own decisions.

I just feel that for what it is worth, that people think long and hard about the intentions of the group and their treatment of racial matters. It's easy to feel relieved by their pledge that they espouse no racist intent whatsoever. I just ask that others read between the lines of their motives and behaviors to critically think about what their intentions are.

In my opinion, I think their intentions are not so noble and border on vigilante extremism. But that's just me. However, for others, they might not see what I do about the Minutemen Project. They might think that we are all living in racial harmony and that the Minutemen's attempt is not to harrass undocumented workers. In fact to some, they might be doing a service.

But, I will be watching and waiting to see how their behavior turns out.



[edit on 27-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:47 PM
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In also addressing jsobecky's and Hamburgular's concerns about the racial intent of the Minutemen, I just have some questions to ask.

1)What other race has the Minutemen targeted besides Latinos and Latinas?

2)What is not racialized about the behavior of the Minutemen? I mean, despite "kicking out racists", how else have they demonstrated that they do not possess a racist intent in their message and actions?

3)And would you be so concerned about illegal immigration if it didn't have to do with South American countries?

4)For you people in law enforcement out there, do you agree with the Minutemen? Do you think that they are legally within their bounds? Or not?

5)What has the Minutemen done to reach out to other races, most namely communities of color?

These are just inquiries. I want to know what people's honest opinions are.


[edit on 27-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 10:03 PM
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Ok my opinion on this topic doesnt have very much merit since im not a american, and i have just recently heard about the minutemen. To me it sounds ridiculous, what are these people motives? They give up their time and energy to enforce border control? Why not instead join the border control? Then from inside the system you could put pressure on the aboves to give more funding.
They sound like a bunch of racist vigilanties, if they care so much about border sercuirty why are they not watching all of american borders, not just the south?
I love it how americans view "illegals" to be lower than human, like they dont have the same rights as a average american.
They are people, just because they were born a few hundred kilometers south from you doesnt make them any less than you. I will tell you how america can stop all the illegal immigration, what is the core reason behind the immigration?
Quility of life. The immigrants have better oppurtunities and quility of life in north america than they do in south america. So this can be fixed if america insted of dropping bombs in the middle east, spent the money helping south american countries better their infurstructure, education and health care systems to become better, so there is a smaller gap in the quility in life between north and south america. Then the immigrants would not want to come to your precious america.
And you can live in a utopian white society......like you all sounds you want.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 10:15 PM
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wang, don't lump me with the supporters. In my posts, I question the motives of the Minutemen. I don't think what they are doing is right. But I do have to respect their right to be there.

And that is a very hard choice to make. But, I think that they are contributing to the lack of racial understanding in America. And my point is that I hope that people keep a critical eye on their actions and message.

I want a multi-cultural America that allows people not to be harassed by vigilante groups. I would rather have law enforcement make corrections within their infrastructure and work with immigration on that aspect.




[edit on 27-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
In also addressing jsobecky's and Hamburgular's concerns about the racial intent of the Minutemen, I just have some questions to ask.

These are just inquiries. I want to know what people's honest opinions are.


For starters, do you want opinions, or facts/logical assumptions based on facts? Assuming you want the latter, I will proceed to “answer” at least your first three questions. But, let me be clear that whether or not you like the answers doesn’t negate that they are answers.


Originally posted by ceci2006
1)What other race has the Minutemen targeted besides Latinos and Latinas?


This is a very leading question. To answer this in the way it is laid out is to agree to the assumption that the Minutemen are actually targeting anyone by race. I do not agree to the assumption that they are targeting people by race, whether Latino or otherwise.

Your question, as written, is poorly worded if your intent is to get “honest opinions.” If you intent is to trick or trap someone into committing to a viewpoint that they do not actually hold or to trick or trap someone into agreeing with you on a point (such as “the Minutemen target people by race”), then your question is quite shrewdly worded.

As I do not believe that they are targeting any race, the simple answer is precisely that, they are not targeting any race and your implied assertion that they target Latinos/as is false.


Originally posted by ceci2006
2)What is not racialized about the behavior of the Minutemen? I mean, despite "kicking out racists", how else have they demonstrated that they do not possess a racist intent in their message and actions?


Again, poor wording in your question does not allow an appropriate answer. You’ve created a fallacious situation in asking me or anyone else to prove a negative. It is not logically possible to “prove” a negative. How does anyone demonstrate that they do not posses a racist intent?

Furthermore, since so often racism is in the eye of the beholder, who defines what is and is not racist? What are the parameters for your proof? One would think “kicking out racists” would be enough to convince people (although not prove it; see above) that a group is not racist. What more do you need?


3)And would you be so concerned about illegal immigration if it didn't have to do with South American countries?

Once more, you’ve asked a leading question that asks me to accept a premise I do not accept. By answering yes, I would have to agree that I am concerned about illegal immigration specifically because it has “to do with South-American countries.”

I do not agree to that. And, to answer no, would require me to accept the exact same premise. I do not agree to that either.

Therefore, I will modify your question: Are you concerned about illegal immigration because the majority of illegal immigrants are South Americans? Note the lack of leading. The answer to this question is no, I am not concerned with illegal immigration for that reason.

The second part of the modified question would be as follows: Are you concerned with illegal immigration for any reason having to do with the race/ethnicity of any of the illegal immigrants? Again, the answer is no.

Do you see how appropriate phrasing in a question can make all the difference in the world?

I am not in law enforcement, so I won’t answer your last question. But, I will pose a question of my own: Considering how I’ve answered your questions, will you continue to race-bait me and suggest that my motivations (as well as those of the Minutemen) are primarily racist, or will you admit that for many (if not most) people, this issue is about criminal activity, economic disruption, and general equity for citizens of the United States?

Remember, this is just an inquiry, I want people’s honest opinions…



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 10:30 PM
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I will take time to think about your question. And I will take the same time to answer it in a future post.

But I am not "race-baiting" with my questions. I just think that you refuse to confront your true feelings about race, that's all.

I can say I am not bothered by the fact that some undocumented workers are from South America. Being Black, I see their plight as one engineered by Corporations and the government. And like I said in other posts, the law is the law. All undocumented workers from all countries are breaking it by not applying for citizenship. I just want to ask why is there so much attention being paid to the South of the Border. That's all. No need to get emotional about it.

Also, I do want a multi-cultural society. This is one thing that you refuse to say in all your diatribes about my posts. Instead, you would rather pussyfoot and waste time using ad hominem attacks.

My questions do cater to people's opinions. I do want to know what people think.

I just want to know why you are so supportive of the Minutemen's efforts. I know that's not a race-baiting question.






[edit on 27-4-2006 by ceci2006]



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