Minutemen Gain Mainstream Appeal

Originally posted by ceci2006
Hamburgular and jsobecky,

I want you both to notice two things that I have said in my posts. One, is that I felt that the Minutemen are "less worrisome" than the average citizen.

I don't know what that is supposed to prove. My objection was to how you perceive the "average citizen":

And the usual law-abiding folk congratulate them because they act out their fantasies of "purifying" the United States in a time of drastic social change and economic deficit. To me, the Minutemen are less worrisome than the silent minority who supports them. The silent minority who accepts and lauds their behavior are also willingly complicit in supporting the same "cold, subtle intimidation" that has wreaked havoc with race-relations.

I don't think that statement can be defended.

wang, I suggest that you do some research on the topic before you make such ridiculous statements such as "I love it how americans view "illegals" to be lower than human".

And I totally agree with Hamburglar's assessment of questions that are misleading. That is a common technique used here, and is very transparent.

Then are you to tell me, jsobecky that if there were European undocumented workers crossing the border, the Minutemen would camp out with their guns and make this much fuss?

I think not.

And also, it is problematic if the "average citizen" gets this riled up about undocumented workers from South America and feel that the Minutemen are heroes for taking the law into their own hands. That's a step away from taking it out on some other race to "preserve the American way of life". That is why it is important to voice these concerns and ask for critical thinking about the motives behind the Minutemen.

The questions are not misleading. I think it is important to know who exactly the Minutemen plan to target. They do not project their rhetoric towards anyone else but undocumented workers from South America. I defy you to find one of their actions that prove they would pick up any other race who illegally stays in America.

I will be totally convinced of the virtue of their actions if anyone proves to me with a picture or article of a Minuteman stopping anyone other than Latinos or Latinas from South of the border. Then, I will truly think that their efforts are fair.

And I don't think it is too much to ask whether they truly have made some sort of connection with communities of color if their creed is to defend America regardless of race. Prove that to me too.

Then, perhaps, I won't find problematic issues with their behavior. So, I really don't care about Hamburgular's attack on the phrasing of my questions. If I felt those questions weren't fair, I would have reframed them. But I want straight answers.

But it looks like people are too ashamed to admit the truth. That's all. And that confirms my suspicions all along.





[edit on 28-4-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Then are you to tell me, jsobecky that if there were European undocumented workers crossing the border, the Minutemen would camp out with their guns and make this much fuss?

I think not.

As far as I know, they are concerned with illegal immigrants in general, regardless of nationality.

The majority of illegal immigrants entering from the south come from Mexico and South America. This, I believe, has something to do with the fact that Mexico is on our southern border.

The questions are not misleading. I think it is important to know who exactly the Minutemen plan to target.

Illegal immigrants who attempt to illegally cross our southern border.

They do not project their rhetoric towards anyone else but undocumented workers from South America. I defy you to find one of their actions that prove they would pick up any other race who illegally stays in America.

I defy you to prove that that allegation is true.

I will be totally convinced of the virtue of their actions if anyone proves to me with a picture or article of a Minuteman stopping anyone other than Latinos or Latinas from South of the border. Then, I will truly think that their efforts are fair.

The Minutemen do not stop anyone. They alert the border patrol of the presence of people illegally crossing the southern border.

And I don't think it is too much to ask whether they truly have made some sort of connection with communities of color if their creed is to defend America regardless of race. Prove that to me too.

Why must they do that?

But it looks like people are too ashamed to admit the truth. That's all. And that confirms my suspicions all along.

Admit what truth? Your "suspicions" confirm something that I didn't think I'd hear from you - that you are desperately attempting to make this a racial issue for reasons that I don't understand.

Undocumented Workers!!!!
NO
Immigrants??
NO
ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!!!!
YES


They BROKE the Law getting here...
They break the law by staying.....

GO MINUTEMEN!!!!

jsobecky, I'm sorry, but I truly, but respectfully think you don't understand the implications of the issue. It is a race issue.

The Minutemen do wander the US-Canada border, it just doesn't make the news very often.

Starting April 1, volunteers with the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, angered with the ongoing entry of illegal migrants to the United States, will be watching from New York to New Hampshire at locations yet to be disclosed. Washington state volunteers are also to be on guard.

cnews.canoe.ca...

About 150 Minuteman volunteers turned out in Sumas Saturday with campers, binoculars and cellphones to keep an eye on the nation's northern border at a time when illegal immigration is generating intense debate in the nation's capital and around the country.

The Washington state-Northwest chapter of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps is part of a month-long, seven-state campaign to raise public awareness of the issue.

www.katu.com...

Canadians and Europeans account for 6% of the illegal immagration to the States. It just seems logical to concentrate your resources on the border that the majority of the illegal immigrants cross over.

Originally posted by ceci2006
jsobecky, I'm sorry, but I truly, but respectfully think you don't understand the implications of the issue. It is a race issue.

ceci, you authored a thread over in PTS about racism. In it, I predicted that illegal immigration had the potential of becoming a racial issue. I didn't state, but thought, that the racial issue would be brought up by those with an agenda, as a tactic to avoid the real issues. That would not include you, imo.

I have no problem with discussing whether there actually is a racial element here. But you seem to be already convinced that there is one, and your mind is made up. No proof. Lack of support causes you to align yourself with those who liken the Minutemen with the KKK. I may be totally wrong, and out of line here, but I don't think you really believe that. And that puzzles me.

Let's just say that if a milita group made up of Latinos decided to target European undocumented workers. They would camp out on the border of Canada. They would also camp out on the East and West Coast to call into border patrol to deport them back to Europe. In fact, like in the case of Bryon Barton, give the European undocumented worker water and some food--while putting a T-Shirt on them while it is shot on video. The T-Shirt says, "I'm an illegal. I got caught from crossing the border".

And let's just say that they protested every place that these European undocumented workers were employed. And then, they made over-reaching comments on fighting for the "American Way of Life" while playing the National Anthem in Spanish. And then, they protested the immigration of Europeans while waving Mexican and American flags.

And then, pushing the "Anti-illegals" cause, they try and infiltrate different Congressional seats on their platform. After all, they are doing (hypothetically) the same vigilante efforts as the Minutemen.

Would you treat their actions in the same light? Would you come out and say that their actions are fair and be supportive of their efforts?


[edit on 28-4-2006 by ceci2006]

There is a lot of talk here, has anyone visited their web site?

www.minutemanproject.com...


I've been reading it over for the past hour. It looks like they want to do the job the government is not doing.

In this country all we seem to here lately is about the governments failure to do things. So, what is wrong with citizens stepping up to the plate?

Why do we have to wait for the government to do anything for us?

If this is truely our country, why can't ordinary citizens care enough about it to do something?

Why do we have to call them - racists?, vigilantes?, KKK?

When law enforcement cannot do the job - no matter what the reason -- then why can't we step in and do it?

At the very least, we have people doing something instead of people blamming the government for not doing anything.

Maybe this is the start of a new American revolution? Maybe we, as citizens, can say - through our actions to our government - if your not going to do it, we will.

Maybe it's time...For us to get off our butts and do something. Let's stop complaining and do something....

As for rascism from the Minutemen, KKK, etc

OOOOPPPSSSS

Going to their site it would appear they are a healthy mix of white, blacks and yes, Latinos.....Even a big percentage of the Minutemen from TX, and NM are latinos. Who are they being rascist against?

hhmmmmmm
Sorry, don't look rascist to me.

jsobecky, believe me. I don't have an agenda. I do have a concern about the Minutemen's actions and motives, however. And I will ask for the fourth time, it seems, to critically examine their motives and message. And some posters are doing it. That is all I orginally wanted.

With that being said. We did find out a few things:

1)Yes, they do patrol Canadian borders. The Washington Minutemen patrol there.

2)They do have connections with people of color: They have Latinos in which support their cause.
Fair enough.

3)Their Minutemen "pledge" says that they are working on the behalf of all races, creeds and genders. Fine. I hope they live up to it.

4)They are being legally monitored by groups to see if their actions are above par. Fine here too. If communities of color voiced concern about the Minutemen, race is most certainly a factor. If they didn't, their motives wouldn't be scrutinized.

In light of the evidence, I know more about their actions and message. However, I still have my doubts about the true motives of their group.

However, to be fair, I did research the Minutemen. You can see that in my earlier posts too.

I went to the Texas Minutemen site and found no pictures. Instead, I found a forum. So anyone, please direct me to the picture.

For the Arizona chapter as I mentioned in an earlier post, they do work with a Latino group that also supports their cause. And in my post, I did mention that they worked with Latinos against Illegal Immigration.

I could have posted the Southern Poverty Law Center's take on the group, but most people I think would see that as "propaganda". But in my digging, I found other articles on the Minutemen.

Gabriel Thompson wrote a two part item on their endeavors. Read it for your own information:

Arizona Minutemen Driven Largely By Sense of Insecurity, Victimization
Would-Be Migrants See Vigilante Border Patrol as Temporary Nuisance

Here is Marc Cooper's take on the Minutemen:
Lawn-Chair Militias

I just have to ask this question:

What separates the Minutemen from a terrorist group? Why are they so important?

1)If you think about it, the Minutemen has a leader: Jim Gilchrist.

2)Mr. Gilchrist has a group of people who buy into his rhetoric (anti-illegal immigration). The people who support him are willing to protest out in the open waving American flags in front of pro-immigration rallies. (Compare that to the picture of islamic fundamentalists who also excitedly show their discontent and dissent in the media).

3)They operate outside the typical channels of power by being a "protest group". Their motives are to shame the government and law enforcement into actively combating illegal immigration.

4)The have "cells": Arizona, California, Texas, New York, Washington, etc.

5)They are armed. (Like it or not, the Texas Minutemen site organized a raffle to get 3 or 4 shotguns.)

6)And they think they are doing their actions against the government for a noble cause.

7)Typically, they haven't advocated violence, but one of their members did drive his truck through a group of protesters.

The only difference is that they are considered "freedom fighters" and "revolutionaries". But compare the perception of the Minutemen to that of the Black Panthers. The Panthers were considered "Reactionaries" and "trouble makers". Is there not a difference here?

Simply put, that is why I have my concerns and question their motives. But, I thank the posters that have put up information to shed light on this manner, namely Duzey.









[edit on 28-4-2006 by ceci2006]

jsobecky,

About your question on the "average citizen": The reason why I agree with soficrow's assessment of the Minutemen is because they and the KKK are both groups started by "common citizens" who have a "beef" with the government. Both groups have grown largely because of the support of average Americans. And, it is disturbing that because both organizations' motives and messages are seen as "preserving the American way of life", people are quick to buy into their actions without critically analyzing their own motives for joining.

Whether you like it or not, the average citizen can be seduced by extremist leaders simply because they have not adequately dealt with their views on race and society. It happens. And because you are part of the majority, perhaps you are not so sensitive to the nature of the growth of some groups can have on communities of color.

But you can be sensitive to the growth of the Nazis in Weimar Germany, playing on the fears of xenophobia and nationalism. A lot of common everyday citizens adapted to the rhetoric in pre-WW-II Germany. And being just "good, decent" folk, they subscribed to everything Hitler professed despite the later debunking of his character and motives.

When the Nazis started out, they weren't a pack of "gun-toting thugs" either. They started with protests and speeches, some of which appealed to everyday workers in beer halls. But then, when the SS was created, the putsches began and then the fire of the Reichstag occured. Before you knew it, common everyday citizens were cheering Hitler as Chancellor and eventual dictator.

Now do you see where I am coming from?

Anyone can be good and "decent". But when it becomes worrisome is when everyday people attach themselves to a cause simply because it plays to their fears and concerns about a "growing menace". With the exception of some who have lost their jobs because of illegal immigration, there are those who are not really affected by work of undocumented workers. But they are angry about seeing "American jobs being taken away". And as a result, they join because they see the group as an outlet for their anger.

With that being said, there are people of color who do endorse the Minutemen's views. And if they have truly examined the group and jibe with their motives, then fine.

But, I just ask that the motives of the Minutemen be viewed with caution and scrutiny. I further ask people to examine the growth of such groups in history, good or bad. And knowing that the Minutemen are breaching the mainstream, be careful for what you wish for.

A couple of hours later and after much thought....

I apologize for the remarks of "racial purification" in my second post. Those comments were way out of line. Perhaps I should have worded my statements a lot better. I also realize that I cannot generalize on the actions of all members of society. Let's just say some might be seduced by rhetoric. But, the seduction of some can be catching if an individual lets it.




[edit on 28-4-2006 by ceci2006]

Unlike the Minutemen, the KKK was not a "group" that grew out of a beef with the government. They had a "beef" with Blacks. Plain and simple.

Though the KKK, Skinheads and National Socialist Party are by no means gone from the radar, their membership has been on a steady decline for the past few decades. As people become more successful, they become more enlightened. I am in some small measure connected to an organization that watches these groups.(statistically)

The Minutemen are just plain Americans, made up of most ethnic groups represented in the US, out to do what they are most concerned about, protect the borders. I am nt going out there with them, but they can for all I care. Just spend sometime looking at the pictures of the members on their site.

That is fair to say. I will try to be more open-minded about my attitudes concerning the Minutemen. And after a lot of self-examination as well as looking at the sites of the Minutemen, I will try to also follow my own inquiry and look more into their organization to completely learn what they are all about.

I still ask for caution. And I still question their motives. But, I am willing to admit that they are citizens concerned with the enforcement of the illegal immigration law. I will not be so judgmental. But, I will be watching their actions and following their progress.

The minutemen are my heros and if I lived close to the border I would patrol with them. Who knows I may go down there some day just for the fun of it.

Swing by and pick me up. I'll split the gas with you..

Second line added to satisfy minimum postage due.

All of you who are jumping on Ceci2006 first need to read her body of work on ATS, she is one of the clearer thinkers around here.

The minutemen are serving a purpose that our government seems to be, not incapable of providing, but unwilling to provide. The minutemen are trying, and failing sofar, to embarrass the feds into doing their constitutionally mandated duty of protecting our borders. I have heard of no incident involving a minuteman and an illegal alien. I suspect that it would be trumpeted all over the so called unbiased media if it had. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

The minutemen are trying, and failing sofar, to embarrass the feds into doing their constitutionally mandated duty of protecting our borders. I have heard of no incident involving a minuteman and an illegal alien.

What do you mean "failing"? How do you know that?

The fact that you have heard of no incident involving the Minutemen and an illegal alien is testimony to their professionalism.

And nobody is jumping on ceci. When she makes statements, she needs to back them up, the same as any other member here.

Whoa there, jsobecky, my freind. I'm on your side. I meant that the minutemen are attempting to embarras the federal gov't into doing their constitutionally mandated duty. I thought that was what I said. And as far as no incident involving illegal immigrants and the minutemen, that's a good thing. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

I spent the entire day thinking about what I said about the Minutemen. And I thank the helpful advice of Benevolent Heretic, police_officer339 and seagull for hashing this out with me.

I also thank Damocles for his polite answer to my questions about the Minutemen.

I extend my apologies to jsobecky and Hamburgular for raking them over the coals with my point of view. I do understand what you both were trying to say.

However, I have a conscience. And sometimes, a conscience can put you in a lonely place against the tide of opinion. And jsobecky's request to show some proof about my claims, inspired me to think about what I said the last week and research how I felt about the Minutemen.

First of all, I will present the "no-contact" policy of the Minutemen as reported in the news:

'Minutemen' to Patrol Arizona Border
Gilchrist said the Minutemen are under strict orders to merely identify and follow illegal border crossers and alert federal agents. They should not interact with the immigrants except to offer food, water or medical care. If there’s a couple of “bad apples” who turn up in the group, Gilchrist said, they will face prosecution if they step outside the law.

And here's the Minutemen and their following of the "no-contact" policy.

Immigrant Says Minuteman Volunteers Watching Arizona Border Held Him Against His Will

Carol Capas, a sheriff's office spokeswoman, said the 26-year-old Mexican man told agents he was physically restrained and forced to hold a shirt while his picture was taken and he was videotaped.

The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."

Barton is one of the three volunteers. He told agents that they waved the man over to them, offered him food and water, and gave him the T-shirt and money before the Border Patrol arrived.

"All they did was provide water and wait for the Border Patrol," Minuteman spokesman Grey Deacon said. "What's the big deal?"

And here is the Minutemen at action:

Minutemen Blaming The Victims of NAFTA
The following week 11 kids coming down from the Huachuca Mountains near Sierra Vista in groups of two or three, mostly teenage boys, were spotted and stopped by the Border Patrol in the late afternoon. Our scanner picked up the excited whoops and cries of the Minutemen on their radios, who jumped in their trucks and headed over to the section being described. The Minutemen later claimed credit for “capturing 11 illegals,” but both the kids and the Border Patrol told us that it was the Border Patrol who stopped them, with the Minutemen driving up later to take pictures.

One day the Minutemen captured a Latino man just south of the Border Road and held a gun to his head as they ridiculed and humiliated him. He turned out to be a reporter from a Phoenix radio station and a U.S. citizen.

A couple of weeks later, a few Minutemen set up their own checkpoint on a dark road outside of Douglas. Shortly after 1 a.m. they stopped a car driven by an Anglo woman, made her roll down her window and then pointed a gun to her head. When they asked her if she was hiding any “illegals” and what she was doing out at 1 a.m., she explained that she was coming home from her job at an all-night convenience store. “I live in Douglas,” she said. The woman, who was terrified of the gun pointed at her head, managed to get home and call the police.

And here is how "polite" and "professional" the Minutemen are--at least to the legal observers from Stanford's Arizona Legal Observers Report :

Arizona Legal Observers' Report continued
Our concern as legal observers was with those Minutemen who had expressed racist sentiments, overt threats, and support for vigilante detentions of migrants. And there were plenty of those Minutemen, too. One threatened to sic his dog on a Latina legal observer, saying, as she went to pet his dog during a protest at the Border Patrol station, “I'd watch out if I were you. That dog is trained to chase sp--s like you off my land.” Another Minuteman physically grabbed an observer, and another threatened to shoot legal observers. A Minutewoman threatened to kill migrants if she saw them on her land again. Luckily this faction had little opportunity to act on their threats, and mostly took out their frustration on legal observers. As Ybarra noted, “This is nothing compared to what the migrants go through.”

I figured that this might not be enough proof. So, I will continue pasting information in the succeeding posts. I just ask once again that when people consider the Minutemen, I urge caution and thought.


edit: to change racial epipthet in last external quote.

















[edit on 4-5-2006 by ceci2006]