Minutemen Gain Mainstream Appeal

Originally posted by thermopolis
Every "citizen" of the USA should arrest the illegal's one by one, then arrest the congress, the local police, the state police, and the DAMNED President for not enforcing the borders.

We should take up arms and man the borders, and the streets, we have been invaded..............

Agreed, afterall, we the people are the majority.
Isn't this supposed to be a democracy (where majority rules)?

Originally posted by ceci2006


I am strong enough to turn the floodlight on my own race, if need be.

To use one of your favorite phrases, prove it.

And then, I asked my questions of who they were targeting other than South Americans, if anyone had any problems with other illegal immigrants than South American undocumented workers, if this group had any connections to people of color and whether law enforcement fully accepted their actions.

Few people, if any, answered my questions. I think that is rather telling.

That's because the question is silly. People would have a problem with unmanaged immigration regardless of the race. Unless of course, they were blonde bombshells from Sweden. j/k

And those who have a problem only with people of color wouldn't say so in this forum, so I don't know what type of answer you were looking for.

And I wanted to know exactly how they operated and what exactly their message conveyed. I also wanted to put their endeavors to the test to see if they lived up to their ideal. So I did the research.

You had to go to socialist websites to dig up the dirt you were looking for. That in itself is very telling.

However, you are questioning the motives and messages of groups within the Black race. I don't on a occasional basis bring up Jesse Jackson, Farrakhan, the NAACP or the New Black Panther Party.

Exactly my point.

So I ask again, what is the real problem here?

Racism, masquerading as genuine concern.








[edit on 1-5-2006 by ceci2006]

I still believe the minuteman project is foolishness...why?

It encourages vigilantes to take the law into their hands...a nono in a civilized world, you go to your local representation and file a complain, or go to court, you DO NOT take your gun and roam the desert looking for "invaders".

Resistance is futile... those people go to work, for works most americans...WON'T DO, like maids, gardeners, garbage people (whatever the name is) and such, very dirty jobs, not saying that they only take that kind of jobs, but face it, they don't come in and be corporative CEO's or such, if they got less problems to come in legally, they would receive equal pay as locals, so there would be no competition and but they have to come in ilegally because the legal way to come in is full of loops and troubles, besides the fact that it is a very slow process, a process they cannot afford to do, that is the continous problem with the US and most Latin American countries.

There are lots of jobs that have to be filled, that simply, as long as there is demand, there will be workers, it has always been so, so if you just regularized the loads of workers already there (calculated at 12 million or more) and made it easier for new arrivals to regularize, it would all be bliss....

No need for rednecks to be hunting for latins in the desert.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
It encourages vigilantes to take the law into their hands...a nono in a civilized world, you go to your local representation and file a complain, or go to court....

Sorry, but the local representation and courts are doing NOTHING about this issue at all.
Hence, the average American is taking matters into his own hands (good for him - it's about time)

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Resistance is futile...

No, it's not, you'll see.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
....but face it, they don't come in and be corporative CEO's or such...

That's because the rich, wealthy, CEO types of Mexico are staying in Mexico and have no need to move to America. The ones pouring in illegally over the border are the poor, uneducated that can't fill CEO jobs. All they want is American money and that's it. Other than that they have no use for America or Americans. We Americans know this, that's why we resent it.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
No need for rednecks to be hunting for latins in the desert.

Why not? The Mexicans are hunting down South Americans in their desert on the southern border and treating them with way less sympathy then we treat our illegals. It goes both ways.

Originally posted by zerotolerance
Why not? The Mexicans are hunting down South Americans in their desert on the southern border and treating them with way less sympathy then we treat our illegals. It goes both ways.

The reason for that is, in Mexico it is a felony if you enter illegally. If they do not shoot them and kill them, they can throw them into jail.

Very hypocritical of them to want it one way here, yet in their own country they have the very same laws they do not want us to put into place.

I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Make our laws the same as theirs. That way our police can arrest them as they arrest those that cross their borders.

Racism, masking as concern?

jsobecky, you really have to check yourself when using that statement. It sounds most hypocritical in your (lack) of defense for the Minutemen. You're fighting for "self-preservation".

At least, I express concern for undocumented workers and their need to be treated with respect while they break the law.

You don't care, and unrepentantly so for any other race than your own. You are so concerned that White people are being attacked that you don't have time to check the xenophobic and paranoiac concerns fostered in your own statements, let alone the group.

You can't even have an open-enough mind on this topic to accept any other point of view except yours.

And again, I say for the third time, if you have a problem with these Black groups in society, open a thread about it. If I did have something to say, I would, believe me. But I don't. At least on this thread.

And socialist web sites? I find that laughable. You're calling the The Weekly Standard, the L.A. Times, not to mention the legal observers report from Stanford socialist? Ask any Stanford Cardinal whether their school is socialist and they would laugh you out of the room, if not the campus. Let alone the reporters from The Weekly Standard.

That is also telling.

zerotolerance, you've arrived way too late to argue with me about the KKK. I've explained in a lot of posts after much interrogation how I feel about the Minutemen. And they are concluded on the third page. So, read on and find your answers there.

Thanks for addressing my earlier comments though.














[edit on 3-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Racism, masking as concern?

jsobecky, you really have to check yourself when using that statement. It sounds most hypocritical in your (lack) of defense for the Minutemen. You're fighting for "self-preservation".

I don't have to defend the Minutemen. You're the one that attacks their motives and methods.

You don't care, and unrepentantly so for any other race than your own. You are so concerned that White people are being attacked that you don't have time to check the xenophobic and paranoiac concerns fostered in your own statements, let alone the group.

This is your own skewed version of reality, ceci. You are just upset because some people don't jump on your bandwagon of "Racism is assumed until proven otherwise".

You can't even have an open-enough mind on this topic to accept any other point of view except yours.

Other points of view lose all validity with me when they accuse racism and demand proof that it doesn't exist. And that is exactly what you've done.

And socialist web sites? I find that laughable.

I did mention Common Dreams and SCFL as examples, didn't I? And the LA Times is very liberal.

You can waste your life looking for racism under every rock. I wish you luck.

















[edit on 3-5-2006 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by ceci2006
jsobecky, I'm sorry, but I truly, but respectfully think you don't understand the implications of the issue. It is a race issue.

I strongly disagreed with that assessment. It's not a race issue, it's breaking the immigration laws issue. Illegal immigrants are undermining the social, economic, legal and community fabrics that seamed the whole country together for over 2 centuries. People who wish to live and work in this country for life must apply legally and upheld their beliefs to make it work and benefit everyone and the country, not for oneself.

Nice try to turn an immigration enforcement issue into a race issue, bud.

[edit on 5/3/2006 by pawnplayer]

Nice try, jsobecky. I'm not looking for racism under every rock. However, you've tried very hard to peg me as such. Okay. Whatever. But to please you, I will add racially loaded words to my text. After all, you should not be affected.

I'm not the one disturbed by delusions of "self-preservation" and the "attack of Whites" on the board--when only two threads feature dissenting opinions about "White skin privilege". I think you don't want to take a step back and look at the criticism objectively. What you might see may disturb your "black and white" outlook. After all , you said that you didn't like the turn ATS was taking.

And still, you don't express any concern or empathy for any other race than your own. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but it tells quite a lot. You can barely contain yourself when people provide a view other than your pre-conceived one which dissects the "dominant culture". Out pops Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan and the NAACP. After all, you only want to make things "fair" and "equal", don't you (After all, we wouldn't want to delude the others into thinking that you criticized those groups only on this thread.)? And I'm telling you, go right ahead. Make that thread.

The opening paragraph of the article says that the "critics call [the Minutemen] racist". I was not the first to utilize the word of "racism". All I said was that the group contributed to xenophobic feelings within the country. That's all. It was you and Hamburgular that implemented the idea of "racism" and accused me of it.

And boy, did you let me know it. And I apologized. I see no apology out of you. Unrepentant just the same.

On my sources? Well, I could have used v-dare. Would that make you feel better?

So, I equally wish you luck in your quest for self-preservation. Stay in that turtle shell, by all means.











[edit on 3-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Damocles, I also respect your comments. And I see what you mean. In the greatest outset, the problem is illegal immigration. Legally, I respect that. I just believe that illegal immigration needs to be solved practically and humanely for all parties involved.

In lieu of saying anything else, I will just post a couple of more excerpts from the Stanford Center of Ethics about why they felt the Minutemen deserved to be observed. The Texas Civil Rights Review will also be brought in to dissect the meaning of "neighborhood watch" and "vigilante". Read it for yourself and make up your mind any way you choose.

This is why the Stanford Center for Ethics got involved with sponsoring legal observers:

Stanford Center For Ethics
In April 2005 , with the aid of a grant from the Stanford Center on Ethics, six law students , a graduate business student, and a law professor traveled to Douglas , Arizona , a small border town, to assist Ybarra with the legal observation of the Minuteman Project. Observers were concerned about the risks of vigilantism by Minutemen, based on past instances of border violence, the rhetoric of Minuteman project coordinators, and overt threats on white supremacist websites.

A report by the Anti-Defamation League, “Border Disputes: Armed Vigilantes in Arizona ,” details a series of illegal assaults, detentions, and other crimes by Arizona vigilantes. The report also quotes Chris Simcox, the Minuteman Project co-coordinator and spokesperson, saying, “so far, we've had restraint, but I'm afraid that restraint is wearing thin. Take heed of our weapons because we're going to defend our borders by any means necessary.” The report also notes that he takes his gun into the bathroom when he showers, that he believes in a conspiracy involving Chinese troops at the Mexican border, and that he wascited on federal land for carrying a loaded weapon in a national park, disorderly conduct, and conducting a special operation without a permit.

It also observed:

The Minuteman Project website also gave cause for concern. Employing alarmist rhetoric bordering on overt racism, the organizers referred to the project as “a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the ‘rule of law,' not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders.” It referred to the Project's volunteers as “those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more ‘toys' to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens.” It bemoaned a future of “rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious ‘melting pot,'” resulting in “political, economic and social mayhem” and “a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.”

The Texas Civil Rights Review argues about the concept of the "neighborhood watch":

Texas Civil Rights Review

Here are two web pages. One for the City of Austin Neighborhood Watch Program and one for the Civil Homeland Defense of Tombstone. City of Austin Neighborhood Watch. Civil Homeland Defense of Tombstone. Do you see any difference here? Notice how the webpage for the Neighborhood Watch Program has been posted by the Austin Police Department with a city contact number. And yes, the Tombstone servants of the "sovereign citizens of these United States" also provide a contact phone number, but you can see that one group is coordinating their activity under law enforcement supervision while another group uses language that has a contemptuous vigilante tradition.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by ceci2006]

I also think it is helpful to review what "neighborhood watch" and "vigilante" means. To me, to describe the Minutemen as either is in the eye of the beholder. Here too, you'll just have to make your own decision.

Wikipedia.org
A neighborhood watch is a citizens' organization devoted to crime and vandalism prevention within a neighborhood. It is not a vigilante organization, since members are expected not to directly intervene in possible criminal activity. Instead, neighborhood watch members are to stay alert to unusual activity and contact the authorities.

The current (American) system of neighborhood watches began developing as a response to the rape and murder of Kitty Genovese in Queens, New York. People became outraged that three dozen witnesses did nothing to save Genovese or to apprehend her killer. Some locals formed groups to watch over their neighborhoods and to look out for any suspicious activity in their areas.

Wikipedia.org
There is no absolute definition of a vigilante. The Latin root of the word, vigil, indicates that a vigilante is one who watches or is observant, and indeed in Spanish, vigilante translates as 'watchman.' In modern Western society, the term is frequently applied to those citizens who "take the law into their own hands," meting out homebrew justice when they perceive that the actions of established authorities are insufficient. Vigilantism is sometimes vilified when it gives way to criminal behaviour on the part of the vigilante.

In the United States, vigilantism began to be an accepted form of maintaining social order as early as the 1700s, with the advent of vigilance committees such as The Regulators of South Carolina. These local committes came to be known as lynch mobs, named for their preferred method of execution. Vigilantism also occurred in Montana during the days of the gold rush, and in California during the struggle for control of the gold fields after the gold rush of 1849, as well as during labor unrest between the World Wars.

Despite my feelings about the Minutemen, I think the greater good of this thread is the critical thinking of their role and purpose. And like I said before previously, I am glad that people are doing that. That is the very least I ask.

Thank you for your comments, Damocles. What you said was truly fair. And I also believe that people have to be independent thinkers when considering issues vital to the country. Beyond all the rhetoric on both sides of the issue, I think all Americans can agree that illegal immigration is a problem on a legal basis.

How to deal with it is where you find different points of view. I think we all have to consider each suggestion whether or not we agree with the solutions proposed.

I know that this might be unbelievable to some, but I do value the points made in this entire thread. And I believe this is a discussion that needs to take place so that the problem of illegal immigration can be solved. National security is a problem. Jobs are a problem. But, where myself and others differ on this thread is the type of action taken. I am also concerned about how people might be affected by these actions. I also wonder if the actions the Minutemen take are dangerous or not. That is where my questioning of the matter lies.

I feel that this problem can be solved with a combination of reworking the immigration system and more financial support to law enforcement.

And I also do not want the actions of the Minutemen to come down to a violent conclusion. The last thing I want is to see anyone hurt.

Again, I thank you for your politeness in addressing my side of the issue. It is greatly appreciated.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by ceci2006]

As the Mexican Legislature has approved the use of dope, will the minute men stop me from going there to use dope?
Just a lighthearted comment

Originally posted by ceci2006
At least, I express concern for undocumented workers and their need to be treated with respect while they break the law.

"...AND THEIR NEED TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT WHILE THEY BREAK THE LAW????????"
LOL! Too funny!
....and you just lost all credibility with this retarded statement.
I'm sorry, but nobody deserves any respect at all when they break the law.
Do you look up to, admire and respect known felons? Do you advocate criminality?
Your PC, liberal, bleeding heart views make me gag!
In a nutshell.....the Mexicans need to go back to their heartland and complain to their own government to take better care of them....don't come running to us....we are not responsible for the Mexicans problems at all.....they are Mexicans, we are Americans....let's keep it that way.
I'm all for the Minutemen. I'd back them 100%.
Our government isn't doing a thing, so the middle class, average, white American is......and it's about time.

Fine. You have a right to your opinion no matter how it is presented. I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over your beliefs. You think my sympathy for people is retarded. Fine. Well. Okay. I'll still have concern for others whether you like it or not.











[edit on 4-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006

The Minuteman Project website also gave cause for concern. Employing alarmist rhetoric bordering on overt racism, the organizers referred to the project as “a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the ‘rule of law,' not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders.” It referred to the Project's volunteers as “those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more ‘toys' to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens.” It bemoaned a future of “rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious ‘melting pot,'” resulting in “political, economic and social mayhem” and “a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.”

Awesome!!!!

Originally posted by ceci2006
Are you speaking for the average, White, Middle Class American, zero tolerance?

Am I allowed to or is that racist?

That's something you'll have to figure out on your own. Have fun.





[edit on 4-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Jesus people, lets calm down a little. If you all were in a room together I wouldn't be surprised if 2/3 of you wound up fighting each other.

I'm surprised how much of an argument this story has created. I didn't expect to be putting up such a sensitive issue.

I'm liking the debate, just tone down the dislike for the other.

[edit on 4/5/06 by SFRemmy]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Fine. You have a right to your opinion no matter how it is presented. I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over your beliefs. You think my sympathy for people is retarded. Fine. Well. Okay. I'll still have concern for others whether you like it or not.

I have no idea as to the count, but I have arrested certainly hundreds of poeple over the years, and yes they all deserve respect. It is very difficult when we are talking pedophiles, rapists, murderers, yet even the criminals are human and I am not their judge. I give them all basic respect.
Illegal Aliens? No I do not like it, but lets face it, it's not murder, not rape, heck not even a violent crime. So why the unmitigated animosity?
They have broken the law, yes, but in the scheme of things, it is not "bad" enough to cause this sort of reaction.









[edit on 4-5-2006 by ceci2006]