It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Minutemen Gain Mainstream Appeal

page: 3
1
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 04:04 AM
link   
Here is a historical precedent for the actions of the Minutemen. Judging from the history of border relations, they find themselves in good company:

Mexican Diversion
Who's Side Are You On?

Jim Gilchrist again, demonstrating his "no contact" policy:


The Guerrilla War Against Cheap Lettuce

Jim Gilchrist talks about the young Guatemalan migrant who, lost and alone in the desert at night, saw from afar the illuminated cross glowing on the roof of the Miracle Valley chapel. He hadn't eaten in three days and walked toward the cross in search of Christian charity. He found the Minutemen. They gave him a blanket, cupcakes, Snickers bars, and a quart of water. "He said 'thank you' in English as he got into the Border Patrol truck," Gilchrist says proudly.


Who is in a "loose" alliance with the Minutemen? How might they get their money? Salon.com has an interesting answer to that:


Vigilante Injustice
However quixotic his character, Simcox is a leading figure in a loose but committed alliance of anti-immigrant forces that have turned Cochise County into a national flash point for escalating tensions over illegal immigration. The alliance includes not only local ranchers, landowners and law enforcement officials, but also former high-ranking Border Patrol agents and U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, a Colorado Republican. Quietly backing their efforts is the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a controversial anti-immigration group that in the 1980s and 1990s received more than $1 million from a shadowy group accused of white-supremacist leanings.


Yes, the Minutemen have not been "involved" in serious incidents, but their actions suggest they are part of a bigger movement. Again, from Salon.com:


No one has suggested that Simcox's group is involved in the deadly violence. But critics say he is the embodiment of a troubling climate of intolerance and impatience that poses a vivid threat to Mexicans and other illegal migrants near the border. Local officials have condemned the vigilante activity. U.S. Rep. Raul Grijalva of Tucson, a Democrat, has called for an investigation of the growing militia movement there.









[edit on 30-4-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 05:02 AM
link   
In the posts above, we got a glimpse of what Jim Gilchrist was like. However, it is even better to know what Chris Simcox demonstrates as one of the leaders of the Minutemen. I think his behavior and actions speak for themselves.

Here is news about Mr. Simcox's arrest by Park officials in Tuscon:


Law & Order
The leader of a Tombstone militia was convicted Wednesday on two federal misdemeanor charges.Chris Simcox, founder of the Civil Homeland Defense, was arrested in January 2003 on charges that he walked into Coronado National Memorial carrying a firearm. Simcox's one-day trial on the charges was held Tuesday before U.S. District Court Magistrate Judge Nancy Fiora. On Wednesday, Fiora ruled Simcox was guilty of knowingly entering the park with a weapon and giving false information to a law enforcement official. Sentencing is scheduled for March 23. Simcox faces up to 8 months behind bars but can be sentenced to probation. Simcox said he's not guilty because he walked into an area of the park that was not marked by any sign. His lawyer will file an appeal.


In his own words, Mr. Simcox describes his "transformation" from "liberal" to "Minuteman" from the LA Times Magazine and Weekly Standard:


Patriots on the Borderline
By his own account, Chris Simcox went a little crazy after 9/11. Once a "liberal and pacifist," he says his worldview changed after he was mugged twice in New York many years ago by people who didn't speak English. He moved to Los Angeles, and for 13 years he taught young children at the private Wildwood School on Washington Place, all the while growing increasingly annoyed at what he calls the liberalism and lack of discipline in Southern California, particularly toward illegal immigrants. "You see what rampant illegal immigration has done in L.A.," he says with a visible shudder. "The gangs, the people standing on the street corners."



The Weekly Standard
TO CLEAR HIS HEAD after 9/11, Simcox went on a camping trip in Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument on the Arizona-Mexico border. What he saw next gave him his life's mission. Sitting on some rocks drinking water in Land-of-the-Lost backcountry, he heard Spanish voices. He looked around and saw a procession of 60 illegals traipsing through the park. The next day, he looked across a valley with binoculars and saw another procession, guys carrying AK-47s escorting vehicles with camo netting. "I'm wondering, 'What the hell is this? Are these freakin' terrorists bringing nukes into the country?"


Mr. Simcox speaks about "mission" and involvement in the Minutemen:


salon.com
"If we're attacked again," Simcox says, invoking the memory of Sept. 11, "you are going to see citizens defend their borders in a patriotic way and you are going to see people get shot on that border."


The Weekly Standard continues to reveal his views:


Pre-9/11, says Simcox, "we were a soft target waiting to get kicked in the balls." He doesn't want it to happen again. "Political correctness?" asks the man who eagerly headed his school's diversity committee. "You can go smoke your political correctness. If enforcing the rule of law and getting tough on crime and telling the rest of the world you better not tread on me, if that offends you, go see a f--ing therapist. A bunch of namby-pamby little wimps we've got leading this country. Let's have some balls again! If our officials cower and risk American lives and sovereignty by not securing our borders, then they'd better get out of the way, because Americans are going to do it for themselves."


Once again, from LA Times Magazine:


Twice during our hourlong conversation he refers to himself as Paul Revere. "This has gotten so big even I can't control it," he says. Which raises the question: What if his call brings to the border members of the 26 "state militias" he says have contacted him? What if some racist yahoo takes the "call to arms" seriously, opens fire on a group of migrants and kills someone? "I realize we've awakened a sleeping giant," Simcox says, lowering his voice for the first time. "It's on my conscience."


So, now it is not my rhetoric you have to deal with; you will have to read Mr. Simcox's words and decide for yourselves.







[edit on 30-4-2006 by ceci2006]

[edit on 30-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 05:04 AM
link   
For what it is worth, police_officer339 is right. The Minutemen do have people of color in their group. Today, I found out that the "Crispus Attucks League" are part of a contingent of Black Minutemen. And it does have Native Americans and Latinos who support the organization.

I further found out that Chris Simcox has an interracial child and has married a woman of color (his second wife). However, you guys will have to discern for yourselves if he does what he means and means what he says in terms of keeping the Minutemen pledge true to form.

I will still retain an open mind in light of not only what is presented here in the three posts, but all the other evidence I have collected, pro and con. However, I'm sorry to say I still have my misgivings. And these excerpts demonstrate some problematic issues to consider.

But, I thought that I would bring these in-depth articles and stories to you in terms of information.



[edit on 30-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 07:25 AM
link   
It would be nice to have viewpoints from some balanced news sources. Common Dreams, South Central Federation of Labor, and the last one, which is unreachable, but sounds a lot like indymedia, are not exactly middle of the road.

One way to judge a source is by the terminology used. These type of sources refer to the illegal immigrants as "migrants", and to the Minutemen as an "anti-immigration" organization. They'll do anything to avoid using the term "illegal immigrant".

And I've only skimmed over the other new posts, and it seems like we're now listing the experiences that Simcox had that changed his political views as proof of his racism.

But I guess where you go fishing depends on what you want to catch.



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 09:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by jsobecky
It would be nice to have viewpoints from some balanced news sources.
One way to judge a source is by the terminology used. These type of sources refer to the illegal immigrants as "migrants", and to the Minutemen as an "anti-immigration" organization. They'll do anything to avoid using the term "illegal immigrant".


Gonna be hard to find a "balanced" news source...

You are correct....Illegal Immigrant, Illegal Alien, well it is like saying christmas



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 01:47 PM
link   
My intent was not to prove any claims of racism. All I wanted to do was present problematic issues that arise in the organization of the Minutemen. I cited Salon.com in terms of the Minutemen's connections. I also brought in two articles that discuss the issues surrounding historical significance of why to be worried about anti-immigration movements in America.

However, I guess I would be "unbiased" if I used the articles which said "illegals" instead of undocumented workers. Go figure.

For what it is worth, The Weekly Standard has no point of view about what the Minutemen does. The author did a profile. And yes, jsobecky, the author used "illegals".

And Stanford Center for Ethics? Stanford by all means is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, I can say that the Labor Organization might have special interests because of its ties with the Union. But, the author was a legal observer of what went on at the border. And believe me, if I used any right wing sources such as Newsmax in this instance, are they any less unbiased than the Union newsletter?

And the Sacramento Union, and the Arizona Star used within my posts, are not by any means liberal. Time and time again, they openly call undocumented workers "illegals" as easy as it is to say, "Have a nice day".

As for Mr. Simcox, his comments and actions are documented in a lot of sources across the country, if not the world. His behavior, past and present, as well as his comments are well known. He is not publicity shy. And I never, in all my posts, said that Mr. Simcox was racist. I especially said in my last post that you will have to decide if he means what he says.

However, I did argue that the Minutemen could contribute to the growing xenophobia and paranoia attached to racism. There is the difference.

However, I did not purposely choose articles from the Southern Poverty Law Center because of the very instance of being accused of being biased in my sources. And they are the ones that really talk about the history of Mr. Simcox as well as his other arrests and troubles with the LA Superior court system. And those court papers are found there as well.

However, thank you all very much for your complements and your willingness to peruse my information. Jsobecky is right. I must back up my position with proof. I simply just can't have "misgivings". I have to research them. And I did.















[edit on 4-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 03:48 PM
link   
Its all over the internet the Minutemen are backed by groups such as the KKK, nazis, skinheads, white sumpremacist groups and their ilk.

Its been my experience if enough people start yakking about something, its usually true.


For this, I cannot support the Minutemen. Nor would I trust them farther than I could toss a fat mexican north over the border.



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 04:34 PM
link   
I wonder if you are as concerned whether Malik Shabazz and the New Black Panther Party for Self Defense will cause any problems tomorrow at Duke University, ceci? Have you done ample research into their background and hidden agendas?

Is the Nation of Islam and it's leader, Louis Farrakhan, beyond reproach? How about the NAACP?

The sad part of this is that nobody knows what your stance is toward the illegal immigration problem, and based upon threads such as this, many will always believe that you support the illegals. That's fine if you do, but now you'll never be able to convince many people otherwise.

ATS is taking a turn for the worse, imo. Over in Political Conspiracies, there is a thread with a blatanty racist title bemoaning the justice system. There is far too much emphasis on searching for a racial element in too many issues. And woefully, this search is directed at one race. I thought we were beyond that, at least here at ATS.


originally posted by police_officer 339
You are correct....Illegal Immigrant, Illegal Alien, well it is like saying christmas


Good analogy.



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 07:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by jsobecky
I wonder if you are as concerned whether Malik Shabazz and the New Black Panther Party for Self Defense will cause any problems tomorrow at Duke University, ceci? Have you done ample research into their background and hidden agendas?

Is the Nation of Islam and it's leader, Louis Farrakhan, beyond reproach? How about the NAACP?


I'm trying to find a connection to the topic of Minutemen and this rant about the Black Panthers in NC. Please help me to understand.



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 08:45 PM
link   
Yes, ATS must be taking a turn for the worse. Some of us are finding our conscience and trying to see other sides of the issue. This has nothing to do with blaming White people whatsoever. However, we are allowed to question the motives and messages of groups we find problematic, yes? If not, I guess that we just don't have the First Amendment any more, do we?

I think it doesn't matter whether or not I support undocumented workers. I do care, however, that they are human beings just like us that deserve respect, recognition and dignity despite their breaking of the law. However, as I mentioned in a previous post here and elsewhere on the board, that the law is the law. And undocumented workers are breaking the law.

But, what I cannot tolerate is the disrespect and indignities placed on people from all walks of life. Because when there is a group that fans the flames against anyone who is "different", they are a step away from taking out their frustrations on anyone that might not fit their mold.

The last time I looked, this thread is not about Malik Shabazz and the New Black Panther party. This thread is about the Minutemen. And you requested that I show you proof to back up my claims. And to top it off, I apologized to you and Hamburgular for my comments.

All I can say is if you are that outraged about what the New Black Panthers are doing, you take time out of your Saturday, start a thread and put your money where your mouth is. After all,like every other member here, you have to have proof to back up your claims.

But on this thread, we are talking about issues surrounding the Minutemen.

I just have to ask, jsobecky, what is your real problem here? Why are you so disturbed with my opinions about the Minutemen?















[edit on 1-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 07:58 AM
link   
ceci2006

You post some very interesting points. The articles you've presented have made me take a second look at the minutemen.

But, what are we to do as citizens, if the government fails to do what they are elected to do - to uphold the law ???

I live in the northeast, so, all I know about the minutemen is what I hear on the nightly news, cnn, fox and talk radio. Radio personality Sean Hannity was down at the border for a week and did his radio show there.

He spoke very highly of the organizers, provided footage of the patrols and interviewed various members of the minutemen in his evening show.

I thought I knew where I stood on this issue...Now, I'm not sure.



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 10:35 AM
link   
Let's hope that no-one pulls a psyop and commits a little massacre to taint these guys and/or use it for purposes of intimidation. When the assault weapon ban was lifted, i feared the same, (guys with ARs randomly shooting people, just to renew the ban via political knee-jerk reaction), but fortunately, it did not happen.



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 03:08 PM
link   
I am only going to weigh in about the different views expressed here on ATS. I will try to plug in some minuteman points so that I am at least on topic.

I have spent my life defending our right to express our opinions. Even when some of those opinions seemed so vile to me that they made me sick to my stomach. I still fought/am fighting to preserve that right.

Though you may not agree with some of the thread topics on here, you may even think they are counter productive, at the very least they are an expression of some one on here and so, free speech. As such, I for one small member, support their right to post.

The Minutemen are doing something that they believe in. Right or wrong, they believe. That goes a long way with me. Simply because it is something that they believe in means that some others will be against it. That is just the way it goes and what makes this society and this forum so very special and wonderful.

I have gotten heated/emotional on here as well and had to take a step back. That just means that who ever I'm posting towards and myself are engaged in a truly meaningful discourse. In my humble opinion, the road to enlightenment.

"One mans trash is another mans treasure."



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 05:28 PM
link   
I wonder why it is that you need to question the motives and messages of the Minutemen. In other words, why is it important that they reach out to people of color? That seems to be your standard of being OK. Is it because you are searching for racism?

If you've really found your conscience, you wouldn't be afraid to question the motives and messages of people of your own race.

You are trying very hard to find anything that puts the Minutemen in a bad light. Yet you are not strong enough to turn that floodlight upon yourself.

Racism exists in all races. Not only in whites, as the statement "Only white people are actively racists" tries to sell. People that support that type of sentiment make me want to puke. They are the reason that racism stays alive here in America.



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 06:55 PM
link   
Again, I thank police_officer339 for his comments. And I also appreciate the other posters who are critically thinking about the Minutemen, whether they agree with me or not.

jsobecky,

I am strong enough to turn the floodlight on my own race, if need be. But are you? It sounds like you are not if you are still this put off over what I said.

I was not simply "looking for racism" whereever I found it. Quite the contrary. I only said that people in a climate of paranoia have the susceptibility of falling into extremist groups because such associations provide an outlet for their anger. It was Hamburgular's accusation that I "race-baited" and brought up the "race card" that kicked off the thread. And it was your defense of Hamburgular's points that added weight to that accusation.

And then, I asked my questions of who they were targeting other than South Americans, if anyone had any problems with other illegal immigrants than South American undocumented workers, if this group had any connections to people of color and whether law enforcement fully accepted their actions.

Few people, if any, answered my questions. I think that is rather telling.

That is all.

I am also strong enough to admit that preferences and prejudices affects all racial groups. And you said that too. No racial group is immune from their share of extremist groups. However, in this case, the Minutemen is being dissected. Nothing more. Nothing less. I shared my misgivings about the group. And I wanted to know exactly how they operated and what exactly their message conveyed. I also wanted to put their endeavors to the test to see if they lived up to their ideal. So I did the research.

However, you are questioning the motives and messages of groups within the Black race. I don't on a occasional basis bring up Jesse Jackson, Farrakhan, the NAACP or the New Black Panther Party. You do. For that I suggest again, you do the leg work and post a thread with your concerns. After all, it is you that has a problem with their groups. You have to deal with it. Not me.

This thread is just one case in which I spoke my opinion about a group that I felt contributed to fear, paranoia and xenophobia. And I'm sorry to say you have not done anything to convince me otherwise.

On the other hand, police_officer339, despite his objection to my point of view, did give me information to prove the contrary.

So I ask again, what is the real problem here?








[edit on 1-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on May, 3 2006 @ 12:01 AM
link   
desert rat, Im not saying that you are wrong but you mentioned that it was all over the internet that The Minutemen are backed and supported by groups such as the KKK, Skinheads and Nazis, do you have any links to back that up, as I sure would like to see them.



posted on May, 3 2006 @ 12:24 AM
link   
Ok...so they are not racist or xenophobic right? And they have the right to patrol "their" border? Well...most of the inmigration is because there are lots of people hiring cheap workforce for works most americans won't do..."like what?" Well it can go from maids, to plumbers, gardeners, farm workers, hell, any kind of dirty jobs that guess what...yep, they need to be done, and because the gov. won't agree to make any decent migratory law, this people remain illegal, yet the fact they are illegal doesn't change the fact they come because they are needed, and well...those fools sitting on their guns in the middle of the desert waiting for some poor guy to pass by, what's the motif? The very country they are defending is built on inmigrants, no difference from the colonists, or the loads of europeans that arrived during the late 19 and early 20th century. Only difference is that now they won't give this inmigrants a legal way to come in. But they are needed, they have been coming for 60 or more years, I don't think that some lads on the border trying to embarrass the authorities to keep this "invaders" out will work anyhow, it will only work to feed the xenophobia further...so instead of looking for foolish solutions to this "problem", why not make sense, and just give these people an orderly way to come in, taking care of the "security" issues, like terrorists coming in, which would have a much harder time passing through a desert no longer transited, all drugs passed through the border would be easier to spot as well, since the orderly way would force drug dealers to take their chances without any civilians to have cover with, less people coming that way...easier to keep secure...doesn't this make sense? Humble opinion from a friend from outside...



posted on May, 3 2006 @ 09:42 AM
link   

Originally posted by ceci2006
But, they are sitting on the border with their shotguns. They are taking the law into their own hands instead of letting law enforcement do their job.


They wouldn't be there if law enforcement was doing there job. And if law enforcement was doing there job they'd be sitting on the border with their shotguns.


Originally posted by ceci2006
In a way, they do remind me of the KKK. For both groups, common citizens fight a "racial menace" in order for "self-preservation" and Americanism. Except for all that I've heard about the Minutemen is that there is no Christian doctrine to back up what they are doing. But it's the harrassment of another race just the same. They are feeding into the frenzy of xenophobia and it is working.


KKK???? Gimme a break. And what's wrong with Americanism? Patriotism? Why is the average, middle-class, white man not allowed to partake in "self-preservation"? Every other group of people on the planet is allowed to. Also, why does it need Christian doctrine to back it up? This is supposed to be a governement issue, which the government is ignoring. Religion has nothing to do with this.....we're dealing with people who break the law here.


Originally posted by ceci2006
To justify their behavior is also reflective to what the good "decent" folks did in the South while lynching and harassment went on with their knowing.


Different time, different place, different circumstance...and in this instance, bad things happen to people that break the law. It's called punishment. Crime doesn't pay.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I just wonder if there are chapters camped out on the borders of Canada willing to put a fence up there.


This is like comparing apples to oranges.....no comparison here.
Poor, uneducated, leeches from Canada are not pouring by the thousands across our border so they can send our dollars back home to fatten their homelands economy while ours dips.


[edit on 3-5-2006 by zerotolerance]



posted on May, 3 2006 @ 09:43 AM
link   
Every "citizen" of the USA should arrest the illegal's one by one, then arrest the congress, the local police, the state police, and the DAMNED President for not enforcing the borders.

We should take up arms and man the borders, and the streets, we have been invaded..............



posted on May, 3 2006 @ 09:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by ceci2006
Then are you to tell me, jsobecky that if there were European undocumented workers crossing the border, the Minutemen would camp out with their guns and make this much fuss?

I think not.


I think you're wrong. I think any mass exodus of people from any country pouring illegally into our borders would get the same reaction. Doesn't matter who it is. Quit making this a race issue. It's not.



new topics

top topics



 
1
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join