Should Israel Have Nukes???

I find that in this world, there is nobody more better qualified to speak about counter-insurgency, than those who have never fired a shot in anger.

To some, what the so called 'Palestinians' are doing, is totaly aceptable.

I suppose brain washing militant and gullable young hotheads into believing they will reap Allah's reward in the Garden of Paradise, if only they would become a suicide bomber and go in to Israel and blow up a busload of women and kids, is acceptable to the majority of armchair anti-Israel experts.

I also suppose that some would call it right and proper that the Arab nations keep the so called 'Palestinian refugees' in camps and force them to live in squalor.

I think you have to agree that with me, that even Israel's foreign policy such as it is, does not dictate where people live in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and all the other arab countries that contribute training, funds and suicide bombers to the cause.

What Israel is doing, is wrong - plain and simple.

However, they are trying to destroy the popular support for the countless terror groups that support the War of Attrition launch by the PLO in 1963.

By flying aircraft low over the Gaza Strip creating sonic booms, yes they are frightening people, but that is their aim.

I do feel that Israel is showing great restraint. Were I the Prime Minister of Israel, I would have ordered Israeli SF to go in and not come back until they got that kid back - dead or alive.

I have written once before that in Lebanon, when kidnapping the wives and children of western diplomats started, the Soviet Ambassador's child was kidnapped and a ransom issued.

The KGB and GRU took their time and eventually managed to locate and then kidnap the eldest child of the local terror group responsible.

The following day, the purpetrator received a severed finger by messenger with a threat of sending the child back to the parents piece by piece, until the Ambassador's child was returned.

Two days later, the child was released - unharmed, and nobody but nobody with the Russians again.

That is what Israel should be doing to Hamas, Hezbollah and all the other crazies.

That is my point though, in trying to 'destroy popular support' as you put it, they are in fact *reinforcing* the resolve of these people and *increasing* popular support because each round of innocent deaths brings in more recruits swearing vengeance. Its a (literally) vicious circle and such a policy *cannot* succeed in the long term.

Waynos, I think that I said that what Israel is doing is wrong.

I in no way support or condone Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip.

Nor do I support the terrorist war launched by the Arab League of Nations under the PLO banner in 1963.

The Arabs chose to go down this path, and in so doing, forced the Israelis to tread the same path. It was not of their chosing.

Yes they should have nukes b/c

they need a retaliation against Iran if they use nukes.

Question: Should Israel Have Nukes???


NO WAY IN HELL !! Israel is just as bad as Palestine IMO. Neither should have them and neither deserve our support.

Fritz, I understand that but was Israel forced to invade and occupy Palestine? Did they not, in fact, choose to take this action of their own free will? If they got off land that they illegally occupied in the first place then they might actually garner more support in the world for what is a horrible situation for them. They are like the housholder with a noisy neighbour who burned down their neighbours house and shot all his family while claiming 'they made me do it' Don't you think?

edit; I also believe that whichever tool it was that tagged this thread with 'anti semitic' needs to grow a brain cell.

[edit on 5-7-2006 by waynos]

Im just doing this to get it back into myATS b/c it got
deleted.

Originally posted by waynos
Fritz, I understand that but was Israel forced to invade and occupy Palestine? Did they not, in fact, choose to take this action of their own free will? If they got off land that they illegally occupied in the first place then they might actually garner more support in the world for what is a horrible situation for them. They are like the housholder with a noisy neighbour who burned down their neighbours house and shot all his family while claiming 'they made me do it' Don't you think?

edit; I also believe that whichever tool it was that tagged this thread with 'anti semitic' needs to grow a brain cell.

[edit on 5-7-2006 by waynos]

Crikey Waynos. Bit strong that statement. Suggest you research the history of the Jewish State (as I am) before you uphold the claim that there really was a country called Palestine.

Guess I'll have to post what I've found out.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by fritz]

Fritz, no, not a country as such, as we would define it, but remember there was no Iraq either until Britain created it as a country in 1923. However the people had lived on the land for centuries so it was their home. likewise with the Palestinians. It is a fact that the borders of Israel, as created in 1947, did not include this territory and Israel has illegally occupied it and oppressed the indegenous people, is it not?

I defer to your status as a student of the region though and am willing to be told where my views are mistaken.

yes Israel should have nukes, I'll let it go at that................

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Israel is for all intents and purposes a European colony in the Middle East, founded via terrorism and ethnic cleansing. It's no wonder they're not very popular in the region.

If Israel wants it's nukes, they should realize that that they make themselves a legitimate target for whatever neighbor of theirs gets them first.

They shouldn't cry for the US to come protect them from a situation they created for themselves.

Maybe it should just be a free for all. Each country do whatever the hell they want. If you have nukes and think your enemy shouldn't then launch a preemptive strike to disarm them. If they threaten to invade invest in some low yeild tactical nukes and demonstrate your resolve. Unfortunately that seems like the realist view of what is happening today. Those that are the most heavily armed try to keep the edge they have by preventing others from gaining the technology necessary to even the score. Is it wrong? Of course it is. To quote a cliche "Only the strong survive". I feel everybody should take the steps necessary to defend themselves as they see fit. They should take their actions into account and be prepared to face the consequences of what they choose though.

I've said it before many times;

Israel has nuclear weapons for one reason only. Israel was placed where it is for one reason only. Israel has gathered Jews from all over the globe for one reason only. To help initiate WW3 by means of another holocaust, mutual destruction of itself and its enemy.

We gave them nuclear materials and know how for the six day war.. was that even necessary??..

The Zionists are simply doing what they are for their own personal greed. The very act of Zionism shows no care for Jewish people or their religious values..

I would feel sympathy for those who get suckered in.. but you have to be pretty ignorant not to realise that Zionism/Israel is causing all the strife in the ME.

Gentlemen,

I thought Palestine was the name given to this area back when the Roman Legions occupied this land around 70 AD. Ensuing occupiers often used the olde name from the Roman days.

I do not think this refered to the area we use today as Israel..but to a much larger area.

And yes ..as I recall. from my poor grasp of history ..several nations were carved out of this area called Palestine under British rule. Jordan being one of them. I think at one time Jordan was called Trans Jordan.

I think this occured some time in the 1920s.

Also...this thread seems a bit silly ..since the Israelis obvoiusly have nukes. What is the world going to do about it?? Is someone here attempting to close the door after the cows have gotten out??

Do any of you know what the Israeli Nuclear Strategy actually is for using them?? Think about this carefully. Very carefully.

I am not pro Israel..nor pro Arab...but how many opportunitys have the Israelis had to use them in almost 40 years with posession of them??

That I know of the Israelis have come close to using them once in the Yom Kippur war of 1973. They were removing them from thier storage bunker and getting them ready. Hence my question about what actually is thier nuclear doctrine. Think carefully here.

How many opportunitys do you think Arab states will have or pass up to use them once they acquire such. Think carefully on this too. Very ,very carefully.


Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 21-6-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 21-6-2007 by orangetom1999]

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Do any of you know what the Israeli Nuclear Strategy actually is for using them?? Think about this carefully. Very carefully.

I am not pro Israel..nor pro Arab...but how many opportunitys have the Israelis had to use them in almost 40 years with posession of them??

That I know of the Israelis have come close to using them once in the Yom Kippur war of 1973. They were removing them from thier storage bunker and getting them ready. Hence my question about what actually is thier nuclear doctrine. Think carefully here.

How many opportunitys do you think Arab states will have or pass up to use them once they acquire such. Think carefully on this too. Very ,very carefully.


Thanks,
Orangetom

I like your 'think very very carefully' posts.
They get me all curious and worked up!

Ok.. so here's my take on Israel's nuclear doctrine:

2)Will only resort to nuclear weapons release if :

1. they themselves are the victims of a nuclear attack
   
2. if they have suffered irrepairable losses of terrirtory and/or manpower
   
3. If they deem that an enemy attack is imminent and they feel that a first strike from them has the ability to neutralise that of the enemy
   
   

Not too different from the doctrines of the regular N-States..

I believe the possibility of nuclear weapons release became very real in the Yom Kippur war since they were on the verge of being over run; until Ariel Sharon and he tanks came up from behind and flanked the bejeezus outta the Eqyptians!

Now I'm not sure what you're getting at here Orangetom..
What do we need to think about very carefully?!

EDIT: And oh yea.. IMHO Every nation has the right to possess N weapons! As long as they really want it, are totally ok with the international repurcussions, and have the materials/know-how.
Hec nobody can stop you if you really want something bad and are willing to bear all the after affects!

[edit on 23-6-2007 by Daedalus3]

Daedalus,
Good to see your posts again. It has been awhile.

#3 on your list about the first strike in case of imminent attack. This has happened to the Israelis several times. IN 1967 they attacked first when it looked obvious that their neighbors were about to do so themselves.

Yes in 1973 they were almost overun on a Hebrew Holiday..Yom Kippur.
The doctrine is called the Sampson Complex where when in the Bible Sampson looked like he was through and would not live long. He decided to take all his enemys with him. This is in fact the Israeli nuclear doctrine. They will take everyone with them. This is not a fact our very ignorant and politically whorish media is wont to let us know. It can however be found on the web by typing in the Sampson Complex. Prior to the acquisition of nuclear weapons the Israeli doctrine was the Masada complex where the Hebrews were said to have committed suicide rather than be taken captive by the Romans on the fortress mountain of Masada.

Our politicians are also guilty of keeping Americans in the dark concerning the truth of this.

Nonetheless what will happen when the nations surrounding Israel acquire nuclear weapons ...and they will. Who will be the more restrained in their usage?? This is what I mean by carefully...very carefully.

It is very obvious to me what will happen and who will be restrained.

By the way..It is the rearming of Israel by the United States which turned the tide and prevented the Israelis from going nuclear. Many peoples blame the USA for this when the know so little of the truth about what happened. It was to keep the Israelis from using thier nuclear option.

I as at that time part of a US Air Force group stationed in Keflavik, Iceland. We were a active fighter intercept squadron who would regularly go up and intercept the Russians flying down the slot between Iceland and Greenland and Iceland and England on their long range routes to Cuba.
We were slated to get brand new F4E model Phantom fighters from Mcdonald Douglas factory lines. We had already received the technical manuals for them and were getting our maintenance facilitys ready for the new airplanes.

When this war of which I speak broke out in 1973, we were overnight told to pack up our mockups and manuals for shipout. Our new planes and equipment were re routed to Israel and we were to get 10 year olde model F4C Phantoms from a training base stateside. THat is precisely what happened. AT that time the E model was the latest adaptation and upgrade of this airplane and the Israelis got them from us as part of this rearmament to prevent them from going nuclear.

Just some additional information to round out this history.

Thanks,
Orangetom

um its only in speculation that isreal has nukes we were told by france in the late 70's that they did but they never tested them nor have they ever spoken publicly about wether they have nukes or not....imean yeah i think they have nukes but noone knows except isreal....and dont you think that if isreal didnt have nukes there may have been more wars worse than with lebanon worse than the six days war....maybe isreal is just bluffing.....but onto the whole palestinian issue.....who was there first isreal owned the west bank during the bc era before it was pushed out by.....well i cant remember but someone....but heres a question where do you suggest isreal go? and do you think if the government of isreal just disbanded it would be fair to the jewish people living there too suddenly have to live by islamic law....theres a thin line between doing the right thing for the wrong reason and doing the wrong thing for the right reasons....

as long as they have almost ten coutries that want them out, then yes, they should have nukes. Are they responsible enough not to use them? so far they have been, except alledgedly on 9-11.

hmmm.. yes true Orangetom, but how about this:

The Soviets were so astounded by the Israeli fighting machine that they did not pursue an aggressive approach; i.e. give some new toys to Egypt.
They were afraid that even with a technical/numerical superiority the Arabs would not be able to do justice to Soviet equipment. The military capability differential between Israel and its enemies was just too vast.

Strengthening Israeli forces would have contributed in their decision to close the nuclear option but IMHO the real deal swinger was Sharon's flanking armored push which screwed the Egyptians over.

That move convinced the Soviets against further upping the ante (re-bolstering Arab lines). Otherwise both sides would have just resupplied, teched-up and gone at it again.

Originally posted by justanothergangster
um its only in speculation that isreal has nukes we were told by france in the late 70's that they did but they never tested them nor have they ever spoken publicly about wether they have nukes or not....imean yeah i think they have nukes but noone knows except isreal....and dont you think that if isreal didnt have nukes there may have been more wars worse than with lebanon worse than the six days war....maybe isreal is just bluffing.....

Oh believe me Israel has nukes..
Olmert just recently dropped a red hot brick by openly talking about Israeli nukes and breaking the age-old tradition of maintaining the position of nuclear ambiguity.

Also a quick look at this one guy called Mordechai Vanunu will shed more light on this.

Oh they have them alright..

Justanothergangster,

As to the Israelis having nukes I suggest digesting this material for your consideration.

First off some of the best mathematical minds on the higher sciences...a good number of them have been Jews. Jews have always been historically into numbers and mathematics of some kind. Another thing they have been into along with mathematics and numerology is Kaballah. A religious doctrine or dogma. Certain of the Kaballistic practices and beliefs are based on numbers and number sequences or patterns.

A great many of the scientists on the Manhattan Project were Jews. Its a good bet that whatever mathematics were involved in the Manhattan project was also known among certain Jewish leaders...and also later progress. I say this especially when Israel was formed in 1947 and when they decided to make a move to acquire this nuclear technology.

Putting the design together is not the problem for them is what I am getting at. The major hurdle was obtaining the fissionable material...not the design. Think this through carefully.

The parameters of setting off a nuclear device are known. Much of this today is done in computer simulations based on know amounts or quantitys in computer simulations...not setting off actual fissionable material. Not something the bulk of the public is wont to know. Not much need for actual testing as they did in the olde days.

Daedalus3,
Intresting position you have posted here. I am aware of what happened in some of the wars with the surrounding nations begining in 1947/48. Again this happened some time in the 1950s, and 1967 and again in 1973.

The main problem I have with your concept is that in fact the Russians have several times armed and re armed these nations surrounding Israel.
One problem I seem to historically recall is the arming or rearming of Syria with some new anti aircraft missle technology and placing these new missles on somewhere strategic called the Golan Heights. This did not set well with the Israelis. This was supposed to be a significant anti aircraft missle upgrade.

I do agree with you on some of the problems dicipline wise and ability wise of the Arab nations. They do seem somewhat able to overcome this as time goes by but then again so are the Israelis not standing still.

Israels time is running out as a nation. Water is becoming a problem in the mid east and especially that area.

The Arab nations and especially the Palestenians are out populating the Israelis. These two aspects seem to be downplayed deliberately by most of the world news media..but especially here in the States. This will become critical somewhere down the line as will water availiability.

I do not for one minute believe that this nation today called Israel has any Biblical right to this land. None. This is not the Israel of the Bible. Not possible.
I do however believe they have right to this land by the age old dictum of the victors get the spoils. They will have to fight to the end to keep what they have won.

Thanks,
Orangetom