'Real' Magic

Not really no, but I see where you're coming from.

Still I can't see that for myself. There is a lot of philosophical (sp?) ideas in the book though, it really makes you think about certain aspects. But to be hones I haven't completed the first 4 chapters yet so can't give a complete opinion about it. Too busy with Goatia lately...had Ose on a visit not to long ago. So I like how the progress is going so far. Going to attempt Murmur next week.

For those who wonder what each Goetic spirit stands for and helps you with:
Ose - Transformation and Answers Secrets
Murmur - Restraint, Gain of information, Philosophy and Spirit Communication

I also have made arrangements with a Budhistic Monastary to be able to visit them 3 times a year for 2 weeks and stay with them. Working my way up and in 2-3 years time I will stay with them for 6 months as retrait. Wondering if I can do the Abremalin Operation at the same time. The monastary is in India where they teach the Vipassana Meditation and the Mahatna

[edit on 31-3-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius
Ose - Transformation and Answers Secrets
Murmur - Restraint, Gain of information, Philosophy and Spirit Communication

If I may use you as an example..

This is a good example of someone who has learned about Magick. Those are accurate descriptions of what those Goetic spirits provide. But if you don't have the basics down the written description could make you think otherwise.

Wondering if I can do the Abremalin Operation at the same time.

This reminds me of a good example of the real "dangers" of Magick.

I set out to do the Abramelin Operation I had the cabin in the woods and everything. After about 3 months I was errrr.... distracted by a woman. Now by this time in the operation I had considerable energy devoted to it, and when I was sidetracked all that energy was directed to the woman.

Needless to say that meant I fell head over heels in love with her... But she was the the WRONG woman for me but I was unable to see it at the time because I was putting so much into it, many sucky things followed.

That is a real danger of Magick.. Some gigantic demon is not going to appear in a puff of smoke and eat your face.

I feel used *cries*

The Abremalin is indeed dangerous and not for the untrained ones. Seeing I'm still a few years away from doing it... Could you provide me with some hints or advice? The most difficult time I have with it is getting a 6month sabatical from work and also to break it to my girlfriend that I won't be around for those months.

Like a budhist "everything is temporary so don't get to attached for attachment leads to pain and sorrow. Attachment to something or someone comes from a lack of having and feeling the need to control what is out of your control".

[edit on 31-3-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius
The Abremalin is indeed dangerous and not for the untrained ones. Seeing I'm still a few years away from doing it... Could you provide me with some hints or advice? The most difficult time I have with it is getting a 6month sabatical from work and also to break it to my girlfriend that I won't be around for those months.

Don't ask me I screwed it up! The only reason I was able to attempt it was the place I worked closed and I had a big fat 401k check (401k is like a pension) in my pocket.

You might be interested in this book. 21st Century Mage by Jason Newcomb you can't miss it the cover art looks like a box of laundry detergent. The book is about how to do the Abramelin without quitting your job/family in other words doing it in the 21st century.

And I have to give a plug for Crowley's version, Liber Samekh

Studied that book a few months ago was an interesting read. Still...taking a sabatical sounds more proper. You can spend 6 months to the operation with 100% dedication.

as for writings by Crowley...I put huge question marks there and I don't like how he writes. Jumping from one topic to the next and 4 chapters later come back to the original point he was explaining. On top of that he uses a lot of Mathers material which doesn't look respectable in my eyes. I do like how he delibaretely writes false information with hints on how to decipher it just to get rid off the fake students of magick. Only wrestled through the required material by him and rather read from other writers who talk about the same subject.

Also for new people I suggest to read The Middle Pillar by Israel Regardie as well as Alchemy and psychology by Gustav Jung. Takes away a lot of odd ideas people have about magick

[edit on 31-3-2006 by Enyalius]

On the Vash situation: pure unadulterated mental illness. None of his/her experiences has anything to do with Magick and everything to do with chemical imbalances. Nothing a few years of psychotherapy and medication shouldn't get under control...hopefully, some people are after all incurable.

As for summoning Goetic spirits, pagan dieites, angles, demons, genii, etc, these things don't actually exist, they are purely archetypes and symbols of things so that humans can put a "face" on it as it is a human condition built in at birth to look for a "Higher power", ie Mommy and Daddy as an infant, pop culture role model as adolescent, politicians and pundits as a sheeple, "angels" as a new ager, "gods" as a religious initiate, immortal alien entities from beyond time and space as a Necronomicon fan.

You could make up your own pantheon of divine hosts, with their own names and traits, but with 99% probability everything you come up with will be very similiar in purpose as to what the old mages created.
The new age people replaced many of these "spirits" with crystals having the same functions and "personalities" of supposed spirits. One great benefit of creating your own system is that it can't be polluted by modern culture, you won't find it used in the latest teen witch movie or a role-playing game.

But hey thats all just my opinion, you don't have to take my word for it, but you will burn in ever lasting fire and brimstone if you don't follow my path to salvation. Send $9.99 Today and get this free powerful anti-demon digital wrist watch! While supplies last.

Sarcasm is the one and only true way to eternal glory.

Originally posted by Legalizer
On the Vash situation: pure unadulterated mental illness. None of his/her experiences has anything to do with Magick and everything to do with chemical imbalances. Nothing a few years of psychotherapy and medication shouldn't get under control...hopefully, some people are after all incurable.

Psychotherapy is one of the things that Israel Regardie recommends for everyone who undertakes occult studies to prevent just these sort of things from happening. But he was a psychotherapist after all.

Yes, Magick is real and no it is not evil. It was the Christians who invented Satan not witches. Christians externalize their Shadowy dark side by projecting it onto an outside entity. Witches believe their Shadow is within and is part and parcel of every single person.
You do not have to believe in Magick in order for it to work. There is a thing called the Heisenberg principle, which basically says that you will see what you expect to see (waves or particles) when looking at electrons. If you expand on this principle, than you realize that many things in life will be seen by the viewer according to expectations and belief. Magical thinking is like that; magick does exist and is real, but if you don't think it does, then you will not see all of the many possibilities inherent in what magick can do or accomplish.Thus, magick involves thinking outside the box. Magick is also, then, a way of looking at the world. The Mage sees all kinds of possibilities that others will overlook. This is only one aspect of magick, but what i'm saying is that magick is also a viewpoint, a way of thinking and looking at the world around onself. Basically, the Mage believes that nothing is impossible and it is that kind of thinking which allows the "impossible" or "not very likely" to happen, when you focus on it.
The good man Jesus also said the same thing. He believed in "miracles" (same as magick) and said that we will be able to work the miracles he did and even more. Something like "greater miracles than this will you accomplish." This is also in keeping with the Christian belief that evil and divinity are things that are external to one's self, while witches believe that each living thing (humans, animals, plants, etc.) has a spark of divinity in them, as well as the potential to do evil.

-Forestlady

Originally posted by Cug
Psychotherapy is one of the things that Israel Regardie recommends for everyone who undertakes occult studies to prevent just these sort of things from happening. But he was a psychotherapist after all.

Yes, I agree, psychotherapy is very important; however, not with just any therapist. What is needed is a good Jungian-oriented therapist, since Jung's approach is the only one that puts such emphasis on examining our Shadow (dark) side and learning how to work with it, rather than ignore it. Out of the subconscious come some pretty serious black magick. It is when one is unconscious of their own hidden motives that evil magick can result, entirely unconscious on the part of the person. This is to be avoided at all costs.
If anyone really wants to read about magick in more depth, I would suggest a book named "The Grimoire for the Apprentice Wizard" by Oberon Zell-Ravenheart. It is a compilation of basic magick from some of the most powerful witches on the planet, many of whom have spent a long life time learning Magick. You can get it thru Amazon.

-Forestlady




(Mod edit: Closed an open italic tag.)

[edit on 3/31/2006 by Majic]

Originally posted by Enyalius
Nice twisting of the story

I didn't twist the story, I quoted it. Forget what I wrote and read what's written if you don't like my assessment. Make your own, the answers read the same.

Originally posted by Enyalius
We're here to deny ignorance not promote it

So why are you here?

Originally posted by Enyalius
The entire Vash story is nothing to give attention to

Vash is in a world of hurt right now. Some of us do and can relate.

Originally posted by Enyalius
and is anything but re-presentitive to magic(k).

Results may vary, this is true, but I don't think it's as uncommon as you like to make light of.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Why do only the "bad" things catch the eyes? It's only 1 in several million. Just with anything in life there are both "good" and "bad" aspects of each action you take and each decision you make. If the issues that Vash is dealing with is truly that of magick (which I seriously doubt) then I can safely say that she had no idea what she was doing.

Way to trivialize a very real and living example. You're concerned about numbers? I'm concerned about lives. Again, it's not uncommon like you think. Please provide support for your statistic given above.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Someone who truly studies magick, and not the shallow teachings and trying to be cool or having the lazy approach, will spend years doing mostly theory and very basic excercises. Excercises which are more then starting with the Qaballistic Cross ritual and moving your way up. It also means teachings of understanding the 5 global religions, the human psyche, esoteric teachings, buddhistic meditations, tantra meditations, yogic excercises and much much more. By the time a magickian will be "opening gates" and evoking/invoking an angel or a daemon they would have years of practice and training and would've gained enough understanding, willpower and experience to deal with anything "bad" that can happen. In fact all preperations for safety would have already been taken so that there would be no risk to begin with.

Only amatures and wanna-be's or people who have no clue what they are talking about talk negatively about magick and THAT is showing your ignorance about the subject.

Ah, behold the super-power magikican with an ego to match.

Originally posted by Legalizer
On the Vash situation: pure unadulterated mental illness. None of his/her experiences has anything to do with Magick

Then you know not of Vash's history and updated address towards medical check-up.

Originally posted by Legalizer
and everything to do with chemical imbalances. Nothing a few years of psychotherapy and medication shouldn't get under control...hopefully, some people are after all incurable.

Pills and implying a person is crazy. Great cure, next?

Originally posted by forestlady
It was the Christians who invented Satan not witches.

Ah, blame game, how mature. By the way, if you'd cracked open an Old Testament, you may be surprise to see Satan was in existence before Christ is mentioned in the New Testament, erego not a "Christian invention".

Done with my warnings here. If anyone has earnest questionings for me, please feel free to ask.

[edit on 31-3-2006 by saint4God]

saint4God, you believe everything written in that book?
Just a guess,,, KJV?

Wicca Basket

I think it's best to confine discussion of other members to threads where they are on topic. After all, would you want someone talking about you in another thread?

Also, there is no shortage of threads examining Christianity and Christian spiritualism, so no worries there.

As for this thread's topic, I think it's important to remember that nothing is free.

I experimented with Wiccan techniques for about six months a long time ago, and ultimately gave it up due to some "infestation" problems.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Wiccan practices, provided they are pursued with due care and prudence.

Of course, saint4God will suggest a different spiritual path, which is itself quite powerful in its own ways. But even those practicing traditional Christianity can be led astray and fall into darkness if they are not cautious and become unmindful of the teachings of Jesus.

There are hazards on all spiritual paths, including those which represent themselves as "atheistic", "secular" or the "one true path".

The only "one true path" for anyone is the path they ultimately walk.

The Golden Rule

The concept of "karma" has analogs in all spiritual contexts, and applies to all things, including Wiccan practice and the schools of the Mysteries.

Regardless of what path you choose, I recommend remembering that in the end, you get what you give.

Hence the timeless wisdom embodied in the admonition of the renowned sages Bill and Ted who solemnly enjoined us to...

"Be excellent to one another."

Good advice, no matter what you believe.

Originally posted by Beer_Guy
saint4God, you believe everything written in that book?

I do now. Wasn't always that way though. Had to do things the wrong way before finding the right way most of the time. I'm...what you would call... "a skeptic".

Originally posted by Beer_Guy
Just a guess,,, KJV?

Nope. Not that there's anything wrong with KJV, I just don't know anyone who says, "Thee for art thou prithee unto thine..." these days thus difficult to deciper in a practical and meaningful way for me. Just my preference.

[edit on 1-4-2006 by saint4God]

Back to the topic of real magic.

This next bit might be a little controversial in magical circles but it's my view.

Crowley's definition of Magick is "Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." Now I think most practitioners will agree with that, or something pretty close.

Crowley expanded on this with The 23 theorems of Magick, the first theorem is:

Every intentional act is a Magical Act.

And I'd like to give an example of that. Here is a ritual outline for curing thirst.

1. You enter your ritual space.
2. You create your magical circle
3. You relax
4. You give a magical sign
5. You say the magical word(s) good chance they will be in a foreign tongue
6. You make an offering
7. Your magick manifests

Now to fill in the blanks.

1. You enter your ritual space. (Your local neighborhood bar)
2. You create your magical circle (You walk around the bar saying hi to friends)
3. You relax (Plant your butt on a bar stool)
4. You give a magical sign (you raise your index finger into the air, and catch the bartenders eye)
5. You say the magical word(s) (Budweiser please)
6. You make an offering (You put a five on the counter)
7. Your magick manifests (a frosty cool one is now before you)

:ops hit post instead of preview::

Now every Magick ritual you do works the same way. But normally the method the magick manifests will be unknown to you, but when it does manifest it will happen in a completely natural way like your bartender bringing you a beer. There is no puffs of smoke, you just get what you wanted.

Success is thy proof - Liber AL III:42

[edit on 4/1/2006 by Cug]

Sheesh Cug, would you give a gun to a three-year old? Just wondering. Seems to be your M.O. on these magik threads. For so many here who say "you can hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing", you're certainly willing to say "c'mon kids, let's play with this stuff and have some fun!". I'll go further to say "you can hurt yourself and others even if you think you know what you're doing...because anyone who does 'practice' clearly does not know the scope of what they're doing." Therein lies the seduction and conspiracy.

[edit on 1-4-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Sheesh Cug, would you give a gun to a three-year old?

What the H are you talking about?

A magick ritual for a 3 year old to cure thirst.

1. Enter your magical space (Where mommy or daddy is)
2. Say the magick words (Mommy I'm thirsty)
3. You magick manifests (Mommy tells Daddy to get you a sippy cup of milk)

I have nothing against Christianity as a faith. I do however get bored and frustrated by mindless fanatic followers that can't even read and understand the Bible properly and are to closed to even think about other possibilities. There is no one-true-wayism unlike they want to believe. Gee I wonder where all those wars started over...having to press their own ignorant interpetations of the book they hold so dear. Calling everyone who doesnt agree with their views pagan and starting a propaganda campaign against em and then adopting many pagan archetypes and symbols and deities under different names in their own belief system. BTW I'm not Pagan and am still registered as a Catholic for the time being while strongly pondering about changing to Buddhism.

Results may vary, this is true, but I don't think it's as uncommon as you like to make light of.

It is uncommon that "bad" things happen when you practice magick. This is because each teacher makes sure you're well prepared before undertaking anything that is dangerous. It takes a long hard training and dedication, the same as being a monk in a church.

It is a fact that people who experience bad things are people who think to lightly of life and magick. Just look at those idiotic instant-spell kits you can buy, you really think they work? pfft hardly, but due to such events taking place magick has become more of a fed and an easy way to gain money and other noncense (oujia boards) while the true practices suffer from this commercialized image that is being created. People who experience bad results lack a proper teacher and insight and think they can do anything at that stage....now THAT is an ego issue. People playing with stuff they don't understand fully.

I too care about lives, but I'm not responsible for every damn life on this globe. God gave free will and everyone is responsible for their own lifes and that which they get on their lifes path. Only thing people can ask of another is advice, but they still end up having to do everything themselves. Next to that you can't help other people properly if you can't even help yourself so focus on yourself first then on others.

In your eyes I seem to trvialize, but you do excactely the same. You shout at the top of your lungs how people are against christianity and try to bash it, but you do excactely the same towards other religious/spiritual paths. It's hypocritical, but in your mind you're rationalizing everything so that it looks good to you and not view other possibilties yet are able to condemn it from a very miss informed point of view. I can offer the topic that AAC made to gather people on ATS to group together and spread positive energy around the world and the entire thread became "WE MUST pray to god else it won't work". Way to go hypocrite

This mage has no ego. I just don't make it all fluffy-bunny care free (new-age), but I don't make it unnecesary scary either (several organized religions). I'm a realist saying that there are dangers attached to magick, but so are there dangers in everything you do in life or any other religion/spiritual path you walk. I also mention what it takes to reduce and even illimenate the dangers. People who aren't willing to spend time and dedication to the path they follow (whether it be christianity, islam, judea, magick, new-age, science whatever) are NOT proper representatives.

And deu to the lazyness put into the practice you call bad events over yourself and in those cases I won't feel regret in any way for they did it to themselves. The practice of magick didn't do it to them, THEY did. A warned man counts for 2 and if you still think you know best then you're free to go your own way (free will) but you'd better bare the consequences of your decision and actions as well. and on that note...VASH called it upon herself and she can fix it just as easily. But nooooo people like to stretch everything and make it all more complex. Seeing the situation isn't as harmfull as everyone makes it out I'll just let people like her wander around till they figure it out themselves else they wouldn't learn from it and i'd feel drained trying over and over again. you can give people all the answers there are, but they won't listen to it and have to figure it out through self-experiencing. It's not that I don't relate, but I can asses situations quite well and believe in the intelligence and strenght of people. And I'm not going to do the work for others because that'll only make them lazy in the end and they still wouldn't have learned form it.

And why am I here? To balance out the ignorant views from new-age fluffy bunnies and religious fanatics who make it all scarier then it is so that they can try to win more souls for their group. People like Saint4God give me the impression that christianity is more like a cult. Luckily I've met enough descent christians that aren't like that so I can actually make a proper opinion instead of bashing an entire group by one individual and practice like some do

The concept of "karma" has analogs in all spiritual contexts, and applies to all things, including Wiccan practice and the schools of the Mysteries.

Not entirely so. Several practices include Karma or the Three Fold Law, but when you enter "schools of mysteries" you will notice that those rules are not taught by the teachings of that stream, but are more personalized. One individual might think highly about karma, but I do not for excample. One student has another interpetation of the Karmic system then another. One follows the eastern interpations, the next western, the one doesn't at all.

I believe in the Law of Attraction instead, which shares a lot of resemblance. Once you truly understand yourself you'll be able to do things in life that correspond 100% with your moral values and beliefs and thus you're in tune with what you're doing. This means that you won't feel regret and are pleased at peace and balance with it. However when you do something that doesn't correspond with yourself then you'll probably end up feeling bad/guilty about yourself. These emotions will alter your energy field and thus you'll start to attract more of that from the universe. You're creating your own "payback".

Karma itself to me is nothing more then a weighin scale that shows if you're in balance with the universe or not. For the rest it has absolutely NO meaning to me. I'm not going to take back anything from this life into the next unless I desire so.

"Be excellent to one another."

I loved Bill and Ted
This is a great teaching which applies to everyone. But it is still easier said then done for some people. There will be people for a long time that still think that there is a one-way-truism and if you don't do as they say you'll burn in hell.

[edit on 1-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Cug
What the H are you talking about?

Okay, I'll accept not knowing the full ramifications of the practices as an answer.