'Real' Magic

Now this conversation has evolved I am pretty much out of my depth and yet I keep checking back to see how the conversation is moving.

One thing that is important I believe in life is to accept that we are all different and all hold different stances on similar topics. From reading the last few posts it appears there is a clash of views which i personally cannot see being resolved easily. It may be a matter of just agreeing to disagree as it were! I do not want to cause any more conflict here, the thing is Saint you do not seem to be giving me any more feedback apart from stating how wrong it is and quoting the Bible. Now i do not mean to be offensive to your faith or you as a person but all I intend to do is learn about such things in life from 'users' who have experience.. first hand. I realise that this is an open forum and I respect your input and views, but I have already learned the Christian viewpoint on such deeds and I do not see how attacking users who are trying to inform me of what they do can be of any use to me and my learning experience.

Now if i'm not wrong (probably am! :lol doesn't witchcraft hold a three fold rule, where if something bad is done, it will come back three times as bad? From what I have learned from other users is that magic(k) is a peaceful and non aggressive.. how can that possibly be bad in many Christians' eyes? Surely If noone os hurt in the process and let's say (for arguments sake) that there was a God.. how could he/she possibly ever judge someone who has never done or intended to hurt anyone on their lifetime?? Saint4God, I repeat, if and when you do reply I would appreciate a first hand approach from you in person.. not a quote from the Bible. I do not want to sound as if im being ignorant of your beliefs, I just would like to hear your opinion instead of a quote.

As for everyone else, thank you for your time and effort.. Please keep it up.. and be patient with me if i slip up.. im trying!!

The Magic Of Topical Discussion

I think what Knights is so politely pointing out is that we're running somewhat afield of the topic.

Hearkening back to days of yore:

Originally posted by Knights
I have been browsing through ATS for some time now btu have never come accross an article based on magic.. 'witchcraft' to be precise or 'Wicca' as i think it is known.

As I have no real knowledge in this field I would like to ask members if this 'wicca' is actually a real working entity where magic can be performed.. and works.

This is a legitimate topic for discussion in this forum, and I ask my fellow members to focus discussion on this topic, not on one another or our respective religious beliefs.

Members who are concerned that those other topics are not receiving enough attention are welcome to start threads on them in the appropriate forums.

If anyone is unsure of what I mean by this, feel free to U2U me.

Now, back to magic, witchcraft and Wicca, please.

Originally posted by Knights
the thing is Saint you do not seem to be giving me any more feedback apart from stating how wrong it is and quoting the Bible.

Nor would I want to. Why would I advertise for the other team? Listen to the Bible or do not. There is no in-between on this topic.

Originally posted by Knights
Now i do not mean to be offensive to your faith or you as a person but all I intend to do is learn about such things in life from 'users' who have experience.. first hand. I realise that this is an open forum and I respect your input and views, but I have already learned the Christian viewpoint on such deeds and I do not see how attacking users who are trying to inform me of what they do can be of any use to me and my learning experience.

I cannot \\\\BLOCK//// anyone from saying anything. I will issue warning however.

Originally posted by Knights
Now if i'm not wrong (probably am! :lol

doesn't witchcraft hold a three fold rule, where if something bad is done, it will come back three times as bad?

Some people believe that, I do not.

Originally posted by Knights
From what I have learned from other users is that magic(k) is a peaceful and non aggressive..

And if you sign up today, we'll give you a free cell phone! (Shipping and handling not included, additional charges may apply. Please sign here and ignore the fine print.)

Originally posted by Knights
how can that possibly be bad in many Christians' eyes?

I've quoted how.

Originally posted by Knights
Surely If noone os hurt in the process and let's say (for arguments sake) that there was a God.. how could he/she possibly ever judge someone who has never done or intended to hurt anyone on their lifetime??

This is a general question of sin, not just for magik. Though it is true that "God is love", the same Book also says, "...yet He does not allow the guilty to go unpunished..." because He is just and holy. This is a long, involved conversation that I'd really like to have with you if you'd like to U2U me on it.

Originally posted by Knights
Saint4God, I repeat, if and when you do reply I would appreciate a first hand approach from you in person..

Sorry, if you were not at risk I would tell you. I have done so for those who are not.

Originally posted by Knights
not a quote from the Bible. I do not want to sound as if im being ignorant of your beliefs, I just would like to hear your opinion instead of a quote.

Thank you, but I will not allow my brother/sister to stumble. My experience, though separate, parallels what the Bible says... it exists and is not good.

Originally posted by Knights
As for everyone else, thank you for your time and effort.. Please keep it up.. and be patient with me if i slip up.. im trying!!

No worries, we all make our mistakes from time to time.

[edit on 3-4-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Knights
how can that possibly be bad in many Christians' eyes?

Its the same reason that buddhism = bad, islam = bad, hinduism = bad, atheism = bad, pre-marital sex = bad, yoga = bad, rock and roll = bad, you name it = bad.

In other words religious and ideological intolerance is good and everything else is bad.

Originally posted by Legalizer

Originally posted by Knights
how can that possibly be bad in many Christians' eyes?

Its the same reason that buddhism = bad, islam = bad, hinduism = bad, atheism = bad, pre-marital sex = bad, yoga = bad, rock and roll = bad, you name it = bad.

I like the exercise yoga. And, rock and roll. Don't see where or how they're bad.

Originally posted by Knights
I have been browsing through ATS for some time now btu have never come accross an article based on magic.. 'witchcraft' to be precise or 'Wicca' as i think it is known.

As I have no real knowledge in this field I would like to ask members if this 'wicca' is actually a real working entity where magic can be performed.. and works.

I really feel this is one subject which people seem to evade.. I would just like to learn more about it from people in the no?

I dont have much experience with wicca in general as a practineer, but from what I have experienced with Kabbalah, etc Im not so sure that it is a real workin entity.

I think it is more like your subconscious. Kabbalah/Judaism basically teach that your guardian angel is your higher self. They also teach there are 5 levels of the soul, etc.

Now if you think that we are all inner connected somehow, I suppose someone could work with an entity, and many claim to even channel entities. I am a bit skeptic and lean toward your inner self. There is so much locked away in our subconscious that could teach us. (when we quite our minds we actuually learn faster and the answer pops up...call that God is you want.)

But enjoy your search most of all.

Check out archetypal images by Carl Jung. (kabbalist like him)

Gods Peace

dalen

[edit on 3-4-2006 by dAlen]

Originally posted by Enyalius
But dalen's text reminded me of something.
Cug...did you happen to study Hebrew? If so how usefull is it? Seeing all the kabbalistic references as well as judeo references of the archangels in Hebrew I reckon it's very usefull to study it.

It is useful, even just so you can pronounce the words and not have that little nagging feeling that you could of done it better. But as for studying the Qabalah not as much. the Traditional Kabalah and the Qabalah used in western Magick really are not the same thing now. I know the alphabet, value, meanings, etc.. and I do an OK job writing it but that about it now.

But in any case any study of languages is a good thing be it Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Egyptian etc... for that matter any study of any subject is a good thing even if it's the study of basket weaving.

Originally posted by Knights
Now if i'm not wrong (probably am! :lol

doesn't witchcraft hold a three fold rule, where if something bad is done, it will come back three times as bad?

Technically that is Wiccan not Witchcraft. If your interested here is a very good site on the three fold rule.
www.waningmoon.com...

The Wiccans also have the Wiccan rede "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will" (Actually the rede is a longer poem but that phrase distills the whole thing in 8 words.) I could go on and compare it to the Law of Thelema (Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law) and how it basically has the same prohibition but for the sake of time I wont.

As for everyone else, thank you for your time and effort.. Please keep it up.. and be patient with me if i slip up.. im trying!!

It would be helpful if you post some more specific questions, I've gotten to the point where I'm just rambling about various topics. The problem with that is I could ramble forever

That and if Enyalius and I keep talking to each other for the most part you're gona end up WAY over your head and not have a clue what we are talking about.

Originally posted by saint4God
And if you sign up today, we'll give you a free cell phone! (Shipping and handling not included, additional charges may apply. Please sign here and ignore the fine print.)

That sir was rude. If mocking other religions is a Christian thing... thank God I'm not a Christian! I have no problems with your dislike of Magick, there is not a single thing is wrong with that. But lets keep the discussion above the playground level. Thanks

[edit on 4/3/2006 by Cug]

Originally posted by saint4God
And if you sign up today, we'll give you a free cell phone! (Shipping and handling not included, additional charges may apply. Please sign here and ignore the fine print.)

Let's not go down the path of ridiculing the beliefs of others, okay?

I applied a warning for this as an attention-getting (but reimbursed the points).

Let's have polite and constructive discussion of paranormal studies. If you're not fond of these topics, it might be best to leave the discussion to those who are.

Thank you.

Apologies to those I may have offended. It wasn't meant as a ridicule of anyone's belief, but as an advisory that though things look attractive on the sales floor you may see that you've purchased more than you've bargained for. Not trying to steer anything off-course, but do tend to respond those who address me. I agree I've said enough though and is getting repetitive. If anyone has further questions on the topic for me please feel free to U2U.

[edit on 3-4-2006 by saint4God]

@Knight
It is indeed important to live and let live and be tolerant. However some people don't understand that there is no one-way-truistic view on life, that there is no black or white absolutes to follow. Some people, no matter what path in life they follow, will think that there is only one true way and thus close themselves off from other experiences that life has to offer. Slowly growing more and more into the rule of ideological fundamentalists which at one point reaches the equivelant of terroristic behavior except for the weaponry. These people are to focused on one aspect so that they are no longer open to others and think that they hold the true answers to everything, very egotistical individuals that claim not to have an ego Whether you cause a Jihad in name of Allah or keep forcing your views on others in the name of god it really doesn't matter. I rather have a Jihad because physical wounds will heal in due time but ideological terrorism (indoctrination) on the human psyche as done by several christians is far more dangerous.

Wicca is a nature religion, personally I don't see it as a religion but more as a life's philosophy. A nature religion isn't bad, just different, and everything in nature is respected and cared for greatly.Thus the law that comes down to "Don't hurt anyone or anything" and they incorporated a law similar to that of Karma saying that everything "bad" you do comes back in three fold. But what is considered bad? In this case anything harmfull to yourself or others and being disrespectfull to the nature and everything that it holds/offers. But this is within the Wiccan stream which was formed during the early 40's and gained more "fame" during the 50's by a man named Gerard Gardner.

Witchcraft, as previously mentioned by myself, is a very old way of life. A life's philosophy that goes back as far as the first shamans that walked the Earth. Within that stream there is no three fold law of payback simply because those witches didn't believe in the dualistic view of Good and Evil. This viewpoint I agree with simply because Good and Evil are subjective opinions. Opinions formed by personal moral values and belief systems and thus Good/Evil can't be anything BUT subjective. What is good for you doesn't necesarily have to be so for me. The laws used by countries are not the definitions of what is right or wrong, they are merely a summary of what the majority of that specific societ that has similar moral valeus. National Laws are guidelines and nothing more, like a Poll held to see what everyone thinks and that what most people think similar are what is used. It is a compromis of various life styles. But depending which part of the world you life people have different values to judge their lives by and thus have different beliefs of what is right or wrong.

The type of moral values and beliefs also changes to the times that you live in. So saying mages, sex etc is bad is simply because in those times people didnt'have the scientific research and overal understanding that humans do these times. Ignorance, lack of understanding, fear of the unknown...and what easier way to get rid of it then to call it bad and hunt down what you don't like and kill it.

That said it is most important to act in accordance with your divine self and thus feel no regret of whatever you do. That which is not in agreement with your divine self will cause conflicts and create emotions such as Guilt and Sinfull. No god makes you feel that way, people do themselves by not understanding what on Earth they are actually doing.

Good and Evil are two extreme dualities. As the Middle Pillar by Regardie explains...It is important to find balans in life and all that you do. Being tempted to follow any form of extremes is harmfull in many ways. Balans is in finding a place where you just are and don't cast judgement and see events and actions for what they are before you catagorize them by any form of duality. By doing so you'll also be attached only to events/individuals that truly matter to you instead of getting attached to a lot that doesn't matter. This way you can stop feeling attacked or feel the need to cause war and opress/kill others. Somethin god told us to do...NOT CAST JUDGEMENT. Creating more of a logic based Cause and Effect view such as professed by both science and Taoism.

Wicca is a philosophy formed by Gerard Gardner and his "friends". Their own interpetation of what was known formerly as Witchcraft. Even though Wicca and Witchcraft have similarities there are fundamental differences. Wiccan rituals have a lot of basic fundaments from the O.T.O. Mages, Thelemetic system and you can Crowleys signature in many Wiccan rituals because Gardner was part of the Golden Dawn which had a deep influence on him. The alterations Gardner made to rituals from The Craft gave quite an occult feel to the wiccan rituals. So the rituals and magick done by Wiccans is far from how ancient witchcraft is done.

In my personal opinion a mix-match from various systems which caused a flawed life's philosophy. Wicca feels and looks more like a bastard child with Witchcraft and Thelema/O.T.O. as its parents. Gerard Gardner also seemed like a fraud when he simply took so called "old manuscripts" and altered them to form a contradictional paper as backbone for the Wiccan Rede. Luckily for Wiccan's a lot of those laws were opposed by Gardners group.

@Saint4God
You're not very consistent are you? Yoga is part of the magickal training as well. Like many similar teachings from the East. You can't do Yoga because you're opposing it in this topic in every single reply you post.

This shows you're either a hypocrite or you don't know anything about magick. Even though you claim to have done it for a while. Less then 3 years of study doesn't count seeing you didn't even scratch the surface then.

The remark "And if you sign up today, we'll give you a free cell phone! (Shipping and handling not included, additional charges may apply. Please sign here and ignore the fine print." shows your true colors. 1. Showing your ego thinking you hold the answers with your little book 2. showing your fundamentalist view 3. being disrespectfull to something you don't understand 4. claiming it is to get a point across rationalizing your own idiotic behaviour so that you can justify it as a just act in your own little feeble mind.

As for apologies. Go to church each sunday, confess and think that you're free of sin for the week and can sin all week again till next sunday. But apologizing to real people takes a lot more...actions mean more then words.

The New Testament holds as much ground as the bible itself...none at all. There are a lot of people who oppose the New Testament for it's propagandic ideas which is aimed a lot towards Jews. Propagandic material for the Christians to use to take down jews. It's ok to point blaming fingers at others, but it sure becomes difficult looking at own fallacies isn't it
www.christianitytoday.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
There are many more sources you can find easily, including if you read the New Testament yourself as well.

@Dalen
A lot of study leads to the human psyche. It isn't odd that psycho-analysing and psychology are part of an occultists study. The path you choose holds information to you in a way that it speaks to you. For me the symbolism of the occult speaks to me and through it I can get what I need to improve myself on a psychological and soul level.

So finding books of Jung, Frued and the likes in an occultist's bookcase isn't odd to say the least. However not everything is merely psychological, there is an esoterical aspect to keep in mind as well. When you did the psychological change in one self then you can differentiate what is coming from within yourself and what is external.

The psychological development of someone during their magickal studies is one that is of the utmost importance. By doing so you will TRULY know yourself, not know like most people think they know themselves. You will accept all your positive and negative aspects, you will alter the aspects you don't like so that you become the person you want to be, you will explore why you react and feel in certain situations and alter it where you feel the need to in order to become the individual that you want to be so that you feel more comfortable in situations that life presents to you daily. By doing all this you will become a balans individual with a very strong will...thus if you invoke a spirit you won't have to feel scared about the possible danger of hostile take overs hehe.

Still most people underestimate this part of the "training". A lot of people who think they 100% know themselves but still wear so many masks that it becomes a joke. And when those people start to play with stuff they shouldn't be playing with....well...their fault and they'll be the only ones to blame and no one else.

Doing this form of dedicated introspect and psycho-analysing you'll also see the positive effects of it in daily life.

@Cug
We don't talk in this topic that often. And it isn't really that advanced either...yet

Perhaps you could explain a bit of what Thelema is like?



Hmm...I should be working now but it is such a slow day here
Still difficult to put my scholarary knowledge and real life experience in a few replies here. Magick/Life is so vast...

[edit on 4-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius

Wiccan rituals have a lot of basic fundaments from the O.T.O. Mages, Thelemetic system and you can Crowley's signature in many Wiccan rituals because Gardner was part of the Golden Dawn which had a deep influence on him.

Gardner was never a member of the Golden Dawn. But he was a member of the O.T.O. in fact Crowley gave him a charter to open an O.T.O. camp. It looks like Gardner wrote it, and Crowley signed it.



I'll also say poopoo to any idea the Crowley wrote the wiccan rituals...

T. Allen Greenfield has a good article about it. His website is down but I found an older copy (Without pictures) here. www.sacred-texts.com...

We don't talk in this topic that often. And it isn't really that advanced either...yet

yea but consider the view of someone who know nothing about magick

You got a point there. I picked that info up somewhere but never paid full attention to it so bad interpetations can happen then. Don't even remember where I picked it up :O But I thought tht Gardner was a short time member of the GD but didn't like the methodology and quit for the O.T.O.

As I understood it though. Gardner did pick up several influences from Crowley, including advice on how to write rituals. I'll have a read of the look you provided and spend some proper attention to it this time

Perhaps you have some knowledge of this. I'm looking for a good educational forum. Most that I came across are filled with teenagers trying to act cool or people who "practicë" for years and still don't know a thing. Then there are 3 great boards with very knowledgable magickians but not a lot of action there. Difficult to find decent forums.

[edit on 4-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius
@Saint4God
You're not very consistent are you? Yoga is part of the magickal training as well.

It can be if you incorporate magik into it. Just as cooking can be. I use 20 minutes of breathing and stretching in the morning. The DVD's are clear of any magikal practice (unless you consider breathing magik). Yoga is an exercise, just as Kung-Fu and Karate are exercises. I've seen magic incorporated with Karate, but not all Karate incorporates magik.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Like many similar teachings from the East. You can't do Yoga because you're opposing it in this topic in every single reply you post.

See above.

Originally posted by Enyalius
This shows you're either a hypocrite

Thanks for that opinion, but no.

Originally posted by Enyalius
or you don't know anything about magick.

Wrong again.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Even though you claim to have done it for a while. Less then 3 years of study doesn't count seeing you didn't even scratch the surface then.

Whatevah. I guess Associates degrees mean nothing to you too.

Originally posted by Enyalius
The remark "And if you sign up today, we'll give you a free cell phone! (Shipping and handling not included, additional charges may apply. Please sign here and ignore the fine print." shows your true colors. 1. Showing your ego thinking you hold the answers with your little book 2. showing your fundamentalist view 3. being disrespectfull to something you don't understand 4. claiming it is to get a point across rationalizing your own idiotic behaviour so that you can justify it as a just act in your own little feeble mind.

I've clarified what I meant in my previous post, I cannot make you read it. If you're looking for an "end game" on the warning, I don't think you found one because even in my comment I meant no ill intent towards anyone.

Originally posted by Enyalius
As for apologies. Go to church each sunday, confess and think that you're free of sin for the week and can sin all week again till next sunday. But apologizing to real people takes a lot more...actions mean more then words.

This is a good point actually. Not only are we to confess, but we're to make things right, which includes apologizing to the people we've wronged, correcting it, and ensuring it doesn't happen again. Not sure what that has to do with anything other than an assumption that I do not actualy believe what I read in the Book which says to do this.

Originally posted by Enyalius
The New Testament holds as much ground as the bible itself...none at all.

Dismiss what you like, doesn't make it invalid.

Originally posted by Enyalius
There are a lot of people who oppose the New Testament for it's propagandic ideas which is aimed a lot towards Jews. Propagandic material for the Christians to use to take down jews.

I think you'd be surprised should you read Galatians (and other books in the Bible) and what it has to say about that:

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:26)

This is a uniting of Jew and Gentile not persecution of them.

Originally posted by Enyalius
It's ok to point blaming fingers at others, but it sure becomes difficult looking at own fallacies isn't it

www.christianitytoday.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

From your source linked here: "But are the Gospels anti-Semitic? Most Christians today would contend anti-Semitism and Christianity clearly can't be compatible—Jesus' command to love one's neighbor overrides any kind of rationale permitting violence against Jews."

...and the people in the house said "amen".

Originally posted by Enyalius
There are many more sources you can find easily, including if you read the New Testament yourself as well.

How can I not read that which I constantly quote?

[edit on 4-4-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Cug
What the H are you talking about?

Okay, I'll accept not knowing the full ramifications of the practices as an answer.

quote: Originally posted by Enyalius
or you don't know anything about magick.

Wrong again.

You're very inconsistent and contradict yourself a lot. Do you even see how little you know and like to show it off in here as well?

And no Associates degree means nothing to me. In fact...not any degree or title given by one man to another means anything. Simply because no one is qualified to judge another individual competencies in such a way that degrees will give a good view on someone's skills or knowledge. It's nothing but an ego booster. Well I got many degrees, more then anyone I know, but they mean nothing to me. Its nothing but a paper which only becomes usefull when applying for a job.

It has been explained many times what magick is all about yet you keep your sheepy eyes closed and stay ignorant of everything. You keep falling over the word magick but each time you share your views you show that you know NOTHING about the subject. This isn't an opinion it is a fact proven each time you open your mouth, but when you do Yoga you do magick as well whether you notice it or not. When doing Yoga you only use different words, but the definitions of the acts and teachings are still there. Magick is just a word and look at the definition of it and you will obviously see that life itself is magick but just another word for it. Stop being so #ing stupid for once and open your eyes for a damn second.

Dismiss what you like, doesn't make it invalid.

Once you again you show your hypocricy. It doesn't matter if we debunk your sources and beliefs because in your little world there is only one true way to live. But obviously you're free to debunk and put everyone elses opinions and experiences and beliefs down. Heck you even state its ok to kill mages, because the bible says so. You're calling the kettle black.

Ugh I'd so like to beat some sense into you about now. you're really getting on my nerves with your ignorance. I'm glad not every christian has such a fundamentalist view as you do. So I'll just put you on ignore so I don't have to see your idiotic ramblings any more.

Well off to cuddle up with a good book by Waite

[edit on 4-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Topic: Real Magic

Please, let's learn from the past, forgive one another for being human, avoid criticizing one another and focus on magic, witchcraft and Wicca, as requested by the member who started this thread.

It's normal and quite all right for us to have different opinions on pretty much everything, but to the extent we allow ourselves to be driven away from the real topic, everyone loses.

I know it's tempting to want to win the debate and get in the last word, but members who exercise restraint and remember what this thread should be about are the real winners.

Such discord and hatred, I love it!

Saint4God, your faith has the same goal as that of any true student of the occult and journeyman of the Great Work. You and I, Cug and Enylaius, Christ and Moses, Lucifer and The Amazing Jonathan, we all have the same objective in mind: union with the ultimate reality of our universe.

Arguing about whose method of seeking spiritual enlightenment is the best is like arguing about whose imaginary friend is the coolest.

All of us are working within a system of faith, constructed from metaphor and abstract philosophy, that has no more basis in empirical reality than do love, racism, or performance art. Let's not waste time putting one another down for believing in different things, rather, let's learn what we can from one another, and live and let live for the rest.

[edit on 4-4-2006 by The Parallelogram]

Originally posted by Knights
I have been browsing through ATS for some time now btu have never come accross an article based on magic.. 'witchcraft' to be precise or 'Wicca' as i think it is known.

As I have no real knowledge in this field I would like to ask members if this 'wicca' is actually a real working entity where magic can be performed.. and works.

I really feel this is one subject which people seem to evade.. I would just like to learn more about it from people in the no?

Wicca is only a state of mind when useing the force known as magic..

But of crouse Magic is only labeled becuase it is a force unknown to most humans this day..

To get to the point of your question Magic is a very real working entiy Working and the very life force of this planet of gaia bless her ...

I my slef do not consider my self to be the Relagiuos Wicca or Pagan type i consider myself a Mystic..

I hope i have answeard your question feel free to PM me any time if you have futher questions.

Originally posted by Enyalius
... yet you keep your sheepy eyes closed and stay ignorant of everything.

...Stop being so #ing stupid for once and open your eyes for a damn second.

Hm...seems these words are not filtered when I reply. Don't know the reason for this hostile response.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Heck you even state its ok to kill mages, because the bible says so.

Please quote where I have said this. I have not said this.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Ugh I'd so like to beat some sense into you about now. you're really getting on my nerves with your ignorance.

I don't know why I'm getting on anyone's nerves. I thought we were here having a discussion.

Originally posted by Enyalius
So I'll just put you on ignore so I don't have to see your idiotic ramblings any more.

If I've caused you to be angry, then perhaps it's best. But, I'm fairly certain it's not me you're angry with. We do not know each other personally.

Pages ago I'd decided not to reply unless I was addressed. Again, if anyone wants details on my experiences instead of making unknowing blanket statements about them, I'm available by U2U.

Finally, welcome Vash. Good to see you here too. I hope things are getting better for you.

[edit on 4-4-2006 by saint4God]

Saint4God you are way off topic. Sounds like no one here really wants to hear any more judgmental statements from you, we're trying to talk about magick and if it works not if it's Christian-approved or not.

Yes, magick works. I can cite any number of personal experiences and that of friends. But it's not a sure-fire thing, any more than electricity will always work. (i.e. blackouts, shorts, etc.) As a friend of mine expressed it, "magick is upping the odds of something happening or not happening." I think of it as trying to add some positive energy to something to kind of help it along a bit.

As far as Wicca (or witchcraft) being a religion, well the U.S. government has official declared Wicca to be a religion, back in late 1980's. I consider it a religion, because for me, it is a spiritual path. It's about being as close to Life as I can get, meaning I develop relationships with trees, animals and all living things...and a few dead ones, too. Witchcraft for me, is about learning as much as I can about the world that the Goddess created and respecting all forms of life as all being equal in value.

Knights, do you have any specific questions? If you do, please ask away. Might help to get the discussion back on the actual topic.

-Forestlady

Okay, since I'm rather pressed for time, and I always cringe whenever I see someone ask this, I'm going to give the brief and brutal truth, and then leave it up to you whether to persue it.

1.) Yes, "magic" works. So does a "gun". Magic should be treated with as much if not more caution than a gun.

2.) There are much easier ways to get laid that don't get nearly as embarassing or awkward later on in life.

3.) There are no easy solutions to any problem. If you think Magic is the key to solving your problems, think again. In general, it's always going to be easier to use hard work and elbow grease, in lieu of a spell.

I don't know what your reasons are for your interest, but I've got a pretty good inclination they're just like 99.999% of the other people out there who once read a Mercedes Lackey book and thought elves were cool.

If I'm wrong, I'm willing to discuss it further.