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'Real' Magic
page: 5share:
Originally posted by forestlady
Saint4God you are way off topic.
I'm answering questions and addresses to me.
Originally posted by forestlady
Sounds like no one here really wants to hear any more judgmental statements from you, we're trying to talk about magick
I have not stopped nor disrupted anyone from talking about anything.
Originally posted by forestlady
and if it works not if it's Christian-approved or not.
I've said it works and is dangerous. That's all I've said.
Thank you thelibra for making this point as well. I don't care what is "Christian-approved", I'm only concerned with what is God approved.
Originally posted by forestlady
Yes, magick works. I can cite any number of personal experiences and that of friends.
Me too.
[edit on 4-4-2006 by saint4God]
Right.. Just afew extra things...
- Can anyone elaborate on such spells they have created and how they have worked for them? As in leading on from earlier when someone mentioned something along the lines of if you wish for money.. a relative could die and leave it in their will.. what good and bad effects have happened?
- Is it an actual God(s) which are involved?? Gatekeepers as it were?
- How did you first get into practising.. I mean I am interested but i'm not exactly going to practise tommorow (As in did it build up as an interest which led to reading up and training and then practising?)
- Is it a solo project or do several people practise together? A common view is that of coverns? -Someone mentioned shedding masks, Is it also a voyage of personal discovery?
- Have negative attitudes from the public actually led to a certain discrimination or even worse physical assaults?
- Do you feel many people have actually changed views on practising? Or are negative stereotypes still a major dogma with witchcraft?
Hope this helps the conversation move back on track!
- Can anyone elaborate on such spells they have created and how they have worked for them? As in leading on from earlier when someone mentioned something along the lines of if you wish for money.. a relative could die and leave it in their will.. what good and bad effects have happened?
- Is it an actual God(s) which are involved?? Gatekeepers as it were?
- How did you first get into practising.. I mean I am interested but i'm not exactly going to practise tommorow (As in did it build up as an interest which led to reading up and training and then practising?)
- Is it a solo project or do several people practise together? A common view is that of coverns? -Someone mentioned shedding masks, Is it also a voyage of personal discovery?
- Have negative attitudes from the public actually led to a certain discrimination or even worse physical assaults?
- Do you feel many people have actually changed views on practising? Or are negative stereotypes still a major dogma with witchcraft?
Hope this helps the conversation move back on track!
Originally posted by Knights
- Is it an actual God(s) which are involved?? Gatekeepers as it were?
Not God, but negative gatekeeper. Yes.
Originally posted by Knights
- Is it a solo project or do several people practise together?
Solo or group. Doesn't matter.
[edit on 4-4-2006 by saint4God]
Originally posted by saint4God
Not God, but negative gatekeeper. Yes.
Not quite. Many people invoke or pray to their favorite gods/goddesses. Invoking a deity means you are asking them to be present. Some people pray to their deitie(s). I'm not sure what you mean by negative gatekeeper but if you mean an entity that protects the participants from evil or harm, then you are correct.
-Forestlady
(Mod edit: Fixed quote and italic tags.)
[edit on 4/5/2006 by Majic]
Originally posted by Knights
- Can anyone elaborate on such spells they have created and how they have worked for them? As in leading on from earlier when someone mentioned something along the lines of if you wish for money.. a relative could die and leave it in their will.. what good and bad effects have happened?
Sure.
The Situation: I saw a rare book about Magick on eBay that I really wanted.
The Problem: The book normally sells for $800+ and I didn't have that much extra cash.
The Solution: Use Magick to get the book
Preparation: I decided to use Magick to get some extra money for the book.
Step 1: I did a tarot reading on what will be the outcome if I did a ritual for money in the next 5 days? The result was not favorable. So I thought about what I really wanted. What I wanted was the knowledge that was in the book. So I did another reading asking what the result would be if I did a ritual for knowledge in the next few days.The result was favorable. This is one of the ways you can help prevent a bad outcome like the example of a family members dies and leaves you money. It is also a step most dabblers don't do.
Step 2: Plan the ritual. This time I decided to make a talisman, so I got out my reference books (777, Goodwins Cabbalistic Dictionary, and others) and found what corresponds with knowledge and incorporated it into the design. I then chose the best planetary hour to do the ritual. Next I wrote an outline of the entire ritual, and the ritual charging the talisman itself. (I changed the bornless ritual into something that would work.)
The Ritual itself:
1. Lit incense and candles and meditated in my ritual area for about 30 mins.
2. Took a shower, and put on my robes.
3. Did the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram
4. Did the Banishing Ritual of the Hexagram.
5. Did an ad-lib statement of my intentions
6. Did a ritual of purification on the talisman
7. Did the Supreme invoking Ritual of the Pentagram
8. Did the Greater Invoking Ritual of the Hexagram
9. Did the Middle Pillar ritual
10. Consecrated the talisman
11. License to depart (Ad-Lib)
12. Did the Banishing Ritual of the Hexagram.
13. Did Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram
14. Did the Star Ruby ritual because I did not feel "done" yet
15. Recorded the ritual in my magical journal.
Total time for the ritual was 2 hours, 3 min.
BTW you can see why the form of Magick I practice is called Ceremonial Magick.
The Results: The next day I placed a bid on the book on eBay for half the going rate (all I could afford). When the auction was over I was the high bidder and got the book the next week.
Operation Successful.
- Is it an actual God(s) which are involved?? Gatekeepers as it were?
This really depends on what the person doing the ritual believes. In my case the answer is no, All I'm dealing with is parts of my subconscious.
- How did you first get into practising.. I mean I am interested but i'm not exactly going to practise tommorow (As in did it build up as an interest which led to reading up and training and then practising?)
It all depends on the person and what state his Will is in. It took me about a year untill I had the self-discipline to do a set of daily rituals.
- Is it a solo project or do several people practise together? A common view is that of coverns? -Someone mentioned shedding masks, Is it also a voyage of personal discovery?
It's both
- Have negative attitudes from the public actually led to a certain discrimination or even worse physical assaults?
Yep. both actually. On place I work I mentioned it to a co-worker and it got around pretty quick. The next thing I know my work was suddenly not up to par, a month later I was let go. I can't prove anything but I have my suspicions. Another time I was at an "occult" bookshop (well it was more new agey than anything) for a workshop on something or the other. During the event a brick with repent sinners painted on it was tossed through a window and just missed a 3 year old girl. That was the last day that store was open.
- Do you feel many people have actually changed views on practising? Or are negative stereotypes still a major dogma with witchcraft?
I think for Wicca/Neo-pagan folks it's getting better, not even close to "normal" but better. You still hear cases where after a divorce one parent uses the fact their ex is a Witch/magician/Pagan to gain sole custody rights. Or there is a huge public uproar when a Wiccan preforms a opening prayer for a city counsel. (this happened in Dallas)
In my case, Thelema is not even on the radar of most people, we normally just get lumped in with cults or Satanists. ::SHRUG::
::EDITED for a few typos::
[edit on 4/5/2006 by Cug]
Some valid questions there which are even quite general and basic ones at that.
Spells and magickal operations can be copied from one another, but there are also those that are self made with great care. Depending on the type of spell and the personal beliefs of the operator they will choose either to share or not. Most "spells" I won't share, especially the ones currently active, seeing that when someone knows what it is I'm doing they can direct their thoughts towards it and influence the operation.
I'm just a cautious guy so will never share indepth information about what I'm doing and when I share it it is after my magick has manifested itself in the macrocosmos (the world we all live in).
The money making spell is one that is used often as an excample, but it is a prejudice one. An indiviual that has been working hard to understand themselves and grow as a person in a spiritual way you won't have a need for money. Thus seeing a serious practitioner use their magic for financial gain is rarely seen. When such a spell is cast by a practitioner then it isn't like "give me money" kind of deal, but more of a "I'd like a job in which I can make use of my talents and grow more as a human being and make money in abundance".
A lot of people, and starting individuals, assume that you simply cast a spell and wait till it manifests. This kind of mindset is what causes all the problems...spellcasting by inexperienced individuals. The first step is that of preperation. In this stage you need to think carefully about the phrasing you will be using in order to make your "wish" known to the universe. Everyone knows the genie of the lamp, a being free of human moralities and will take things very literal. Carefull phrasing is one way to reduce fallacy. During this stage you'll also delve into the items needed for the spell and make sure all is present and well prepared.
The second step is that of precaution in which you'll use several things such as divinary methods to see if all is truly present, that all is well prepared, that the time frame of casting the spell is correct, if the spirit in question that you will contact is ok with it all etc etc. Thus you'll reduce the % for errors even more.
As third step you'll make sure you have to meditate upon it all en get your mind into the right vibratory stage so that it is strong and willfull and in line with what has to be done. And then you'll prepare possible banishing tools needed in case something does go wrong. It is important to prepare for the unexpected.
A lot of time and carefull planning and preparing comes before actually casting a spell. It can take a few hours upto a few weeks of preparing before actually getting to do the magick itself. If you don't do that then it isn't odd that there will be negative side effects to your spell. Simply because you left your spell full with open mazes that can be used by the universe. It simply interpetates your wish and uses the most direct route to bring it to you. It is the operators fault if a spell doesn't go correctly.
I've used a very simplistic form of spell casting which is the fundaments of the Law of Attraction system. This states to get your emotional and psychological vibratory levels in accordance of that which you wish to obtain, release the " wish" and wait untill it manifests. If a relative was about to die and leave some heritage then that would be the shortest route, but a practitioner builds in a lot of precautionary ways to make sure that route would be sealed of for the energies to travel.
For money I didn't want money from a lottery or a heritage, because it would only give me a temporal income which would end up drying up. No I wanted a job where I could grow in many ways AND get the amount of money that I needed to sustain my life. Within three weeks I came home from the current job I had and my dad looked at me and said "hey there are three people retiring and we seek new people. Interested?". Yes I was and within two weeks everything was arranged and that is where I work now for the past five months. Which allows me to gain all the money I need to look for my own place, support me and my gf, keep my interests in books and games up and go on vacations and still have enough to safe a fair amount each month and give relatively small amounts to less fortuned people I come across when I'm in the city.
This really depends on the magickal system you work with. During the scholarary stage of the training it is often stressed to get a very good view about many religions and life philosophies that are currently present on this world. At the end of the studies the practitioner most likely found a religion or philosophy that connects with him, or finds answers that came from all those studies. A practitioner is not religion bound unless he chooses to embrace one such as Budhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, various Mythologies or various nature philosophies such as Wicca, Shamanism etc.
The entities you work with are those of the Paradigm that you choose to follow. The wiccans believe in nature and thus belief in a Goddess that symbolises nature and fertility. In the end, gods/godesses and other deities are not like humans for they posess no human traits nor do they have any dualities...they just ARE. So whether you work with a ArchAngel or a Daemon it really doesn't matter, the only thing you can stumble on is the name given.
It is also important to learn to see beyond that what is literally written. Many deities such as god, satan, allah, mythological gods can be best seen as a symbolic representation of various human psychological aspects and be dealt with as such as well. Also study to symbolism present in each ritual and the ideologies behind them to get a greater understanding.
In most situations you either work with your own conciousness for self development and growth. When working with specific systems like Goetia or Enochian you will be working with spirits and elementals. With Goetia you will work with Daemons (latin for free spirits) and with Enochian you will be working with Angelic beings.
When performing the Middle Pillar excercise you will be working mainly with the kabbalistic Tree of Life and use the 10 spheres based upon Judeo-christian beliefs. Each sphere is also called a Sephiroth and each one also has an opposite present called Qlipoth thus re-presenting both good/bad in each sphere. Each sphere also represents elements with sub-elements which correspond to psychological aspects of the human mind. Many practitioners of this Tree of Life will stay weeks to months on one sphere untill they mastered it. Not only mastered and understood the sphere with the elements, Sephiroth and Qlipoth but also mastering himself in the corresponding Psychological area. Then move on to the next sphere. Kether is the sphere everyone tries to achieve, because that is where enlightentment, full understanding of oneself and connection with the divine, is achieved.
I don't work with elemental Gatekeepers. I work with the Archangels as the protectors of my personal sphere when doing magickal workings. Where witches will replace the ArchAngels by elemental watchtowers. As long as one understand the ritual they are working with they are able to make adjustments to it to fit their personal needs and beliefs.
So it all comes down to the personal path one walks and what teachings are found on that specific path.
As a child I was able to experience ghosts and other beings as well as having irregular OBE's alongside of 3monthly premonitions and being able to take away pains of people. My interest in the paranormal grew and thus started to experiment with many paranormal aspects such as Automatic Writing and more. The further I got in my search for the truth I noticed that there was a religious/spiritual link shown. So I started studying the 5 main religions of the world and started doing more energy work according to New-Age teachings as well as Eastern tradition. I've experimented with a lot. But nothing made me feel "Home" untill I was invited to a occultist cafe once a month and there I got interested in the occult practices and that is what I've been studying since.
I started with continueing my scholarary studies and doing the basic rituals as described in Israel Regardies book The Middle Pillar. Starting with the Qabalistic Cross and the Pentagram Rituals. Applying my scholarary knowledge into practice felt amazing. Then slowly building it all up untill I was able to memorize the rituals and could even perform them intuitively in my sleep thus allowing me to put my attention to other parts of the rituals and figuring out how they work and what each bit of symbolism presented means.
For me it has been a proces of personal growth and a quest of finding who I am.
It is possible to study magick as a solitary practitioner or in the form of a group such as brotherhoods, sisterhoods, covens. Heck even Christians perform magick both solitary and in groups. Eating the symbolic bread, drinking the symbolic wine, prayer as a group to a deity they belief in.
I personally am mixed in which method I prefer. I'm all for personal exploration and research, but it is nice to have someone to go to when having a question or simply talk/discuss about ideas and methods. But you don't really need a large group or coven for that. There are enough quality books that allow you to initiate yourself such as Self Initiation into Hermetics by Franz Bardon, who in general writes relatively respectable books. And there are self initiatory books for wiccan's and witchcraft and more. But to me an initiation only means taking the first concious step onto a certain path witl full dedication. What that specific path might be doesn't matter because it applies to everything whether a job, a hobby, a study, a religion or a life's philosophy.
Due to all these self initiations I dread the quality of groups such as covens and such which sprung from the ground like weeds. Many covens can't be considered respectable and are more like a group of friends who like to dabble around a bit. Many self proclaimed priestesses and priesters haven't gone through the basics properly themselves and then think that they can teach others. I find this a joke. I've been present to certain rituals performed by groups in England and that just made me laugh at the amount of errors that were made from the start.
Joining groups like that can be harmfull to a very dedicated practitioner since they will be hurt in every way possible. Many covens these days got a lot of new-age fluffy bunny ideologies thinking there is little harm in anything. Teaching flawed ideas and theory, giving a false image to the practitioner which will hurt him if he doesn't notice it soon enough. Groups like these I classify as a cult, but not in the sense that they will suck you dry financially or make you do things against your will. No they will cuddle you to death and only slow down your progress and fill your head with false ideas of what magick is. This I went through myself...being part of a fluffy bunny group which I have absolutely no contact with any more for almost 7 months. A waste of 4 months that I was part of them.
Still there are respectable groups and covens, but they are rare. You surely won't just find them, they will find you. When being part of a proper group you will learn the strenght of a "Group Mind" as explained by Dion Fortune in one of her books called Applied magick and occultism. When a group of people focus their mind on the same subject they will boost each other untill they form one group mind, also called an Eggregore. A group mind that has all the qualities of the group and what they want to achief and thus the group mind will work to achieve it. Such a group mind is stronger and more effective then practicing as a solitary practitioner. The very same when a group of Budhist sing mantra's or Christians pray for one and the same case...for excample world peace.
However think about when you actually need such a strong force. I mean it doesn't make sense to use a nuke to open a can of coke now is there?
Negative attitudes comes from misunderstanding or simply being ignorant to what they don't understand. Such discimination or assaults I see as weak and pitifull and I just laught at it.
However the negative attitude is also fed by the media such as series like Sabrina the Teen Witch, Charmed, The Craft, Harry Potter. People have very prejudice ideas about what magick is and think that no one in the world should wield a power such as the characters mentioned. However magick works differently, not like those prejudistic ideas at all.
Due to those fake images created by the media there are a lot of teens wanting to do magick and become a wiccan or occultist. They don't know what they are getting themselves into and only see it as a game or something to be cool with instead of starting with proper knowledge and dedication. For ignorant indiviuals like that pre-made spellkits have been made and other means to comercialize the concept of new-age/wicca/occult. When the teenager has a bad experience they run back to their previous religion and start slinging mud towards magick practitioners. But those teenagers don't even see that they are to blame for the bad experiences themselves because they didn't take it seriously enough.
And that adds to the evergrowing bad image of magick which comes from only ignorance and lack of dedication. It is very difficult for a serious practitioner to be taken seriously due to all those things working against your image.
There were several christians in this town. They had a website on which they had a map with locations of "evil" locations. On that list were the national railways because they worked on sundays. Hey I work for the railways so I'm evil as well and like every other employer I was on that list as well. People who did astrology were on that list with their adress, phone numbers and everything with a quote from the bible stating that witches/mages are bad and when you see one they should be killed on sight. Many new-age stores, Yoga schools and more were on that website as well with very personal information of the owners and how to kill them for they were heretics to the almighty lord. Well obviously many people filed a lawsuit against those people and the site was gone. Every time one of them walks past me they start shouting and swearing and I just ignore them. The second they will do something physical towards me they'll be mine and they'll end up in prison. Bunch of fundamentalist lunatics.
On the work floor everyone knows what I do and study. This is because they also show interest in other peoples views and that is how it rolled out one time. But no problems there. Heck my solicitations the interviewer did nothing but talk about the paranormal after he read that I had a degree in Parapsychology. Very Liberal and openminded individuals.
Next to that I'm glad I grew up in an environment where this kind of thing is accepted. My stepmother does a lot of energy work as well, but more new-age like with reiki and other forms. My dad studies magick in the form of the Enochian System and I'm still trying to figure out which system I want to specialize in so still trying various systems out.
Stereotypes are still strongly present. Explained earlier in this reply.
[edit on 5-4-2006 by Enyalius]
[edit on 5-4-2006 by Enyalius]
- Can anyone elaborate on such spells they have created and how they have worked for them? As in leading on from earlier when someone mentioned something along the lines of if you wish for money.. a relative could die and leave it in their will.. what good and bad effects have happened?
Spells and magickal operations can be copied from one another, but there are also those that are self made with great care. Depending on the type of spell and the personal beliefs of the operator they will choose either to share or not. Most "spells" I won't share, especially the ones currently active, seeing that when someone knows what it is I'm doing they can direct their thoughts towards it and influence the operation.
I'm just a cautious guy so will never share indepth information about what I'm doing and when I share it it is after my magick has manifested itself in the macrocosmos (the world we all live in).
The money making spell is one that is used often as an excample, but it is a prejudice one. An indiviual that has been working hard to understand themselves and grow as a person in a spiritual way you won't have a need for money. Thus seeing a serious practitioner use their magic for financial gain is rarely seen. When such a spell is cast by a practitioner then it isn't like "give me money" kind of deal, but more of a "I'd like a job in which I can make use of my talents and grow more as a human being and make money in abundance".
A lot of people, and starting individuals, assume that you simply cast a spell and wait till it manifests. This kind of mindset is what causes all the problems...spellcasting by inexperienced individuals. The first step is that of preperation. In this stage you need to think carefully about the phrasing you will be using in order to make your "wish" known to the universe. Everyone knows the genie of the lamp, a being free of human moralities and will take things very literal. Carefull phrasing is one way to reduce fallacy. During this stage you'll also delve into the items needed for the spell and make sure all is present and well prepared.
The second step is that of precaution in which you'll use several things such as divinary methods to see if all is truly present, that all is well prepared, that the time frame of casting the spell is correct, if the spirit in question that you will contact is ok with it all etc etc. Thus you'll reduce the % for errors even more.
As third step you'll make sure you have to meditate upon it all en get your mind into the right vibratory stage so that it is strong and willfull and in line with what has to be done. And then you'll prepare possible banishing tools needed in case something does go wrong. It is important to prepare for the unexpected.
A lot of time and carefull planning and preparing comes before actually casting a spell. It can take a few hours upto a few weeks of preparing before actually getting to do the magick itself. If you don't do that then it isn't odd that there will be negative side effects to your spell. Simply because you left your spell full with open mazes that can be used by the universe. It simply interpetates your wish and uses the most direct route to bring it to you. It is the operators fault if a spell doesn't go correctly.
I've used a very simplistic form of spell casting which is the fundaments of the Law of Attraction system. This states to get your emotional and psychological vibratory levels in accordance of that which you wish to obtain, release the " wish" and wait untill it manifests. If a relative was about to die and leave some heritage then that would be the shortest route, but a practitioner builds in a lot of precautionary ways to make sure that route would be sealed of for the energies to travel.
For money I didn't want money from a lottery or a heritage, because it would only give me a temporal income which would end up drying up. No I wanted a job where I could grow in many ways AND get the amount of money that I needed to sustain my life. Within three weeks I came home from the current job I had and my dad looked at me and said "hey there are three people retiring and we seek new people. Interested?". Yes I was and within two weeks everything was arranged and that is where I work now for the past five months. Which allows me to gain all the money I need to look for my own place, support me and my gf, keep my interests in books and games up and go on vacations and still have enough to safe a fair amount each month and give relatively small amounts to less fortuned people I come across when I'm in the city.
- Is it an actual God(s) which are involved?? Gatekeepers as it were?
This really depends on the magickal system you work with. During the scholarary stage of the training it is often stressed to get a very good view about many religions and life philosophies that are currently present on this world. At the end of the studies the practitioner most likely found a religion or philosophy that connects with him, or finds answers that came from all those studies. A practitioner is not religion bound unless he chooses to embrace one such as Budhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, various Mythologies or various nature philosophies such as Wicca, Shamanism etc.
The entities you work with are those of the Paradigm that you choose to follow. The wiccans believe in nature and thus belief in a Goddess that symbolises nature and fertility. In the end, gods/godesses and other deities are not like humans for they posess no human traits nor do they have any dualities...they just ARE. So whether you work with a ArchAngel or a Daemon it really doesn't matter, the only thing you can stumble on is the name given.
It is also important to learn to see beyond that what is literally written. Many deities such as god, satan, allah, mythological gods can be best seen as a symbolic representation of various human psychological aspects and be dealt with as such as well. Also study to symbolism present in each ritual and the ideologies behind them to get a greater understanding.
In most situations you either work with your own conciousness for self development and growth. When working with specific systems like Goetia or Enochian you will be working with spirits and elementals. With Goetia you will work with Daemons (latin for free spirits) and with Enochian you will be working with Angelic beings.
When performing the Middle Pillar excercise you will be working mainly with the kabbalistic Tree of Life and use the 10 spheres based upon Judeo-christian beliefs. Each sphere is also called a Sephiroth and each one also has an opposite present called Qlipoth thus re-presenting both good/bad in each sphere. Each sphere also represents elements with sub-elements which correspond to psychological aspects of the human mind. Many practitioners of this Tree of Life will stay weeks to months on one sphere untill they mastered it. Not only mastered and understood the sphere with the elements, Sephiroth and Qlipoth but also mastering himself in the corresponding Psychological area. Then move on to the next sphere. Kether is the sphere everyone tries to achieve, because that is where enlightentment, full understanding of oneself and connection with the divine, is achieved.
I don't work with elemental Gatekeepers. I work with the Archangels as the protectors of my personal sphere when doing magickal workings. Where witches will replace the ArchAngels by elemental watchtowers. As long as one understand the ritual they are working with they are able to make adjustments to it to fit their personal needs and beliefs.
So it all comes down to the personal path one walks and what teachings are found on that specific path.
- How did you first get into practising.. I mean I am interested but i'm not exactly going to practise tommorow (As in did it build up as an interest which led to reading up and training and then practising?)
As a child I was able to experience ghosts and other beings as well as having irregular OBE's alongside of 3monthly premonitions and being able to take away pains of people. My interest in the paranormal grew and thus started to experiment with many paranormal aspects such as Automatic Writing and more. The further I got in my search for the truth I noticed that there was a religious/spiritual link shown. So I started studying the 5 main religions of the world and started doing more energy work according to New-Age teachings as well as Eastern tradition. I've experimented with a lot. But nothing made me feel "Home" untill I was invited to a occultist cafe once a month and there I got interested in the occult practices and that is what I've been studying since.
I started with continueing my scholarary studies and doing the basic rituals as described in Israel Regardies book The Middle Pillar. Starting with the Qabalistic Cross and the Pentagram Rituals. Applying my scholarary knowledge into practice felt amazing. Then slowly building it all up untill I was able to memorize the rituals and could even perform them intuitively in my sleep thus allowing me to put my attention to other parts of the rituals and figuring out how they work and what each bit of symbolism presented means.
For me it has been a proces of personal growth and a quest of finding who I am.
- Is it a solo project or do several people practise together? A common view is that of coverns? -Someone mentioned shedding masks, Is it also a voyage of personal discovery?
It is possible to study magick as a solitary practitioner or in the form of a group such as brotherhoods, sisterhoods, covens. Heck even Christians perform magick both solitary and in groups. Eating the symbolic bread, drinking the symbolic wine, prayer as a group to a deity they belief in.
I personally am mixed in which method I prefer. I'm all for personal exploration and research, but it is nice to have someone to go to when having a question or simply talk/discuss about ideas and methods. But you don't really need a large group or coven for that. There are enough quality books that allow you to initiate yourself such as Self Initiation into Hermetics by Franz Bardon, who in general writes relatively respectable books. And there are self initiatory books for wiccan's and witchcraft and more. But to me an initiation only means taking the first concious step onto a certain path witl full dedication. What that specific path might be doesn't matter because it applies to everything whether a job, a hobby, a study, a religion or a life's philosophy.
Due to all these self initiations I dread the quality of groups such as covens and such which sprung from the ground like weeds. Many covens can't be considered respectable and are more like a group of friends who like to dabble around a bit. Many self proclaimed priestesses and priesters haven't gone through the basics properly themselves and then think that they can teach others. I find this a joke. I've been present to certain rituals performed by groups in England and that just made me laugh at the amount of errors that were made from the start.
Joining groups like that can be harmfull to a very dedicated practitioner since they will be hurt in every way possible. Many covens these days got a lot of new-age fluffy bunny ideologies thinking there is little harm in anything. Teaching flawed ideas and theory, giving a false image to the practitioner which will hurt him if he doesn't notice it soon enough. Groups like these I classify as a cult, but not in the sense that they will suck you dry financially or make you do things against your will. No they will cuddle you to death and only slow down your progress and fill your head with false ideas of what magick is. This I went through myself...being part of a fluffy bunny group which I have absolutely no contact with any more for almost 7 months. A waste of 4 months that I was part of them.
Still there are respectable groups and covens, but they are rare. You surely won't just find them, they will find you. When being part of a proper group you will learn the strenght of a "Group Mind" as explained by Dion Fortune in one of her books called Applied magick and occultism. When a group of people focus their mind on the same subject they will boost each other untill they form one group mind, also called an Eggregore. A group mind that has all the qualities of the group and what they want to achief and thus the group mind will work to achieve it. Such a group mind is stronger and more effective then practicing as a solitary practitioner. The very same when a group of Budhist sing mantra's or Christians pray for one and the same case...for excample world peace.
However think about when you actually need such a strong force. I mean it doesn't make sense to use a nuke to open a can of coke now is there?
- Have negative attitudes from the public actually led to a certain discrimination or even worse physical assaults?
Negative attitudes comes from misunderstanding or simply being ignorant to what they don't understand. Such discimination or assaults I see as weak and pitifull and I just laught at it.
However the negative attitude is also fed by the media such as series like Sabrina the Teen Witch, Charmed, The Craft, Harry Potter. People have very prejudice ideas about what magick is and think that no one in the world should wield a power such as the characters mentioned. However magick works differently, not like those prejudistic ideas at all.
Due to those fake images created by the media there are a lot of teens wanting to do magick and become a wiccan or occultist. They don't know what they are getting themselves into and only see it as a game or something to be cool with instead of starting with proper knowledge and dedication. For ignorant indiviuals like that pre-made spellkits have been made and other means to comercialize the concept of new-age/wicca/occult. When the teenager has a bad experience they run back to their previous religion and start slinging mud towards magick practitioners. But those teenagers don't even see that they are to blame for the bad experiences themselves because they didn't take it seriously enough.
And that adds to the evergrowing bad image of magick which comes from only ignorance and lack of dedication. It is very difficult for a serious practitioner to be taken seriously due to all those things working against your image.
There were several christians in this town. They had a website on which they had a map with locations of "evil" locations. On that list were the national railways because they worked on sundays. Hey I work for the railways so I'm evil as well and like every other employer I was on that list as well. People who did astrology were on that list with their adress, phone numbers and everything with a quote from the bible stating that witches/mages are bad and when you see one they should be killed on sight. Many new-age stores, Yoga schools and more were on that website as well with very personal information of the owners and how to kill them for they were heretics to the almighty lord. Well obviously many people filed a lawsuit against those people and the site was gone. Every time one of them walks past me they start shouting and swearing and I just ignore them. The second they will do something physical towards me they'll be mine and they'll end up in prison. Bunch of fundamentalist lunatics.
On the work floor everyone knows what I do and study. This is because they also show interest in other peoples views and that is how it rolled out one time. But no problems there. Heck my solicitations the interviewer did nothing but talk about the paranormal after he read that I had a degree in Parapsychology. Very Liberal and openminded individuals.
Next to that I'm glad I grew up in an environment where this kind of thing is accepted. My stepmother does a lot of energy work as well, but more new-age like with reiki and other forms. My dad studies magick in the form of the Enochian System and I'm still trying to figure out which system I want to specialize in so still trying various systems out.
- Do you feel many people have actually changed views on practising? Or are negative stereotypes still a major dogma with witchcraft?
Stereotypes are still strongly present. Explained earlier in this reply.
[edit on 5-4-2006 by Enyalius]
[edit on 5-4-2006 by Enyalius]
I havnt gone through all of the threads- but for me the WORKING factor in magic is the power of intention and belief. You have to figure out what
resonates with your SELF, and then from there basically anything is possible.
INTENTION is very important. BELIEF naturally follows.
We are the creaters of our very own realities, and therefore You have the power to manifest the thing(s) that you have a true soul craving towards.
INTENTION is very important. BELIEF naturally follows.
We are the creaters of our very own realities, and therefore You have the power to manifest the thing(s) that you have a true soul craving towards.
Originally posted by Enyalius
The money making spell is one that is used often as an example, but it is a prejudice one. An individual that has been working hard to understand themselves and grow as a person in a spiritual way you won't have a need for money. Thus seeing a serious practitioner use their magic for financial gain is rarely seen. When such a spell is cast by a practitioner then it isn't like "give me money" kind of deal, but more of a "I'd like a job in which I can make use of my talents and grow more as a human being and make money in abundance".
OK I'm going to totally disagree here (Note to the readers, this does not mean Enyalius is wrong in any way, just a diffrent point of view) I'm going to use money as an example, but this all applies to all types of "mundane" Magick.
The main reason is simply practice. If you don't do Magick that has a "real" material results you can never be sure that your ritual worked. (Magick always works.. but rituals don't always.. mostly as a result of a mistake somewhere) And if you don't know for sure your ritual worked you wont know how to improve/fix any mistakes. Thus you gain experience when it come to working Magick for "Higher" reasons.
Spiritual pepole need money too! If for books if nothing else. (Another note for the reader, We Occultists for the most part have a book fetish)
In many cases, those who say you shouldn't do magick for money say so because they can't do it. Now this leads to a question...
How come you are not a millionaire?
The answer to this is that's the way Magick works... I'll explain...
Whenever you do a ritual, no matter what it is, what you are doing is creating the thing you want in the astral plain. Lucky for us the laws of physics do not exist in the astral so you can "POOF a million dollars" there.
As Above so Below. That is the nuts and bolts of Magick, when you create something in the astral it has to manifest here on the material plain BUT we have those darn laws of physics to deal with, so what happens? The result of a Magick ritual only manifests via natural means.. it obeys all laws of physics. I don't know about you, but there is no way I could naturally receive a million bucks, it's just not in the cards. Now if Bill Gates did a ritual to receive a million bucks it will work because he has a way for the Magick to manifest naturally.
If I did a ritual to have the Mona Lisa hanging on the wall, there is no way it's going to happen. The Louvre is not gona give it up. Now I might end up with a copy but the real thing will never hang on my wall.
If I did a ritual to have some hot sexpot jump in the sack with me... it's not gona happen unless I loose oh I don't know 50-60 lbs!
If someone did a ritual for a job, then never looked in the classified ads, never talked to anyone, never applied for a job... there is no natural way for the Magick to manifest so it won't.
Like I said Magick is not supernatural, some may call it paranormal (I wouldn't) but it is most definitely not supernatural.
[edit on 4/5/2006 by Cug]
Indeed. Us occultists do have a book fetish, still have a pile of 28 left to study hehe - and for books you need money. However what I tried to make
clear was the way we go about getting the money. We don't feel the need to be millionairs like many shallow and materialistic individuals of todays
society do. We're just as happy with just enough to get all the bills paid and everything we like. You don't need millions for it, nor do you need
to do alternative healing practices or reiki initiations and charge as much as a lot of people do.
It's all about finding the balance in how much you truly need and how much you're asking for.
But I don't advice people to do materialistic rituals for money and such untill you have the theory down similar to the explenations both Cug and I gave about how to go about doing the magick and getting rid of all possibly errors such as a family member dying that leaves an heritage.
It's all about finding the balance in how much you truly need and how much you're asking for.
But I don't advice people to do materialistic rituals for money and such untill you have the theory down similar to the explenations both Cug and I gave about how to go about doing the magick and getting rid of all possibly errors such as a family member dying that leaves an heritage.
In most cases you're wrong so I take you up on the last sentence you wrote.
You make it look as if magick is more dangerous then a gun, but you overlook one major aspect here. The gun itself is NOT dangerous, the person who wields it decides on what the gun does. The gun can not be blamed for the incompetence of the individual that is in control of the gun. And there are safety precautions you can take by making sure the safety is on and another precaution such as making sure the gun isn't loaded. Same precautions serious practitioners take.
There is indeed caution needed, but most people overdo it going from one extreme to another. It is either very very dangerous and life threatening (religious people) or nothing can go wrong and you should do as you please (new-age flufbunnies). Going to extremes is unhealthy so try to find the balance like a proper occultist/realist/scientist does.
Huh? What are you on about? Since when does magick and sex get used in one and the same sentence? Tell me so I can try it as well?
There is only one stream within ALL of magick that uses sex. This is related to the Green Man Tantric Sex. And I agree that many people use it only to get laid which is a shame (disrespectfull as well), because when done correctly it'll have a very positive outcome. This is why I do this aspect of magick only with my partner and not with a random whore or horny house mother.
But a lot of prejudice ideas, as you show, gives magick and its teachings a bad name for no real reason other then finding ways to slander what you don't have a full understanding about. Hopefully you're better then that and don't turn out to be like a certain ignorant individual in this topic. Even though I can understand where the prejudice comes from. Explained it in a prior post of mine.
There are easy solutions to every problem and they're not even magick related. People make it more difficult and complex then it should be. A practitioner of magick doesn't think that magick is a means to end all problems. Magick is like a tool similar to the tools that a cergen(sp?) uses. And I state to my students that they should NOT use magick constantly because then they'd get lazy and reduce the challenges of life from which we learn daily.
Once again a statement formed by prejudice.
Can you please stop with the prejudice?
In a reply I made earlier I explained why such faulty ideas like yours are formed. So many people just jumping into magick due to fantasy figures like Harry Potter without understanding what magick truly is. Due to people like that a bad image is generated about the entire occult.
A proper dedicated practitioner of magick, which is the majority of the entire community, so a minority group who gets into it due to fantasy figures and they will drop out sooner or later because of self created "bad" experiences.
The small group ruins it for the dedicated practitioners and make it hard for us to be taken seriously. Which is very frustrating.
Then again saying people get into it due to fantasy and saying all that we do is fantasy makes me realize you haven't read this topic, which you also stated due to lack of time. Still I suggest you do because Cug and I explained what magick truly is and how it is done. It'll take away most of the prejudice....I hope.
Originally posted by thelibra
1.) Yes, "magic" works. So does a "gun". Magic should be treated with as much if not more caution than a gun.
You make it look as if magick is more dangerous then a gun, but you overlook one major aspect here. The gun itself is NOT dangerous, the person who wields it decides on what the gun does. The gun can not be blamed for the incompetence of the individual that is in control of the gun. And there are safety precautions you can take by making sure the safety is on and another precaution such as making sure the gun isn't loaded. Same precautions serious practitioners take.
There is indeed caution needed, but most people overdo it going from one extreme to another. It is either very very dangerous and life threatening (religious people) or nothing can go wrong and you should do as you please (new-age flufbunnies). Going to extremes is unhealthy so try to find the balance like a proper occultist/realist/scientist does.
2.) There are much easier ways to get laid that don't get nearly as embarassing or awkward later on in life.
Huh? What are you on about? Since when does magick and sex get used in one and the same sentence? Tell me so I can try it as well?
There is only one stream within ALL of magick that uses sex. This is related to the Green Man Tantric Sex. And I agree that many people use it only to get laid which is a shame (disrespectfull as well), because when done correctly it'll have a very positive outcome. This is why I do this aspect of magick only with my partner and not with a random whore or horny house mother.
But a lot of prejudice ideas, as you show, gives magick and its teachings a bad name for no real reason other then finding ways to slander what you don't have a full understanding about. Hopefully you're better then that and don't turn out to be like a certain ignorant individual in this topic. Even though I can understand where the prejudice comes from. Explained it in a prior post of mine.
3.) There are no easy solutions to any problem. If you think Magic is the key to solving your problems, think again. In general, it's always going to be easier to use hard work and elbow grease, in lieu of a spell.
There are easy solutions to every problem and they're not even magick related. People make it more difficult and complex then it should be. A practitioner of magick doesn't think that magick is a means to end all problems. Magick is like a tool similar to the tools that a cergen(sp?) uses. And I state to my students that they should NOT use magick constantly because then they'd get lazy and reduce the challenges of life from which we learn daily.
Once again a statement formed by prejudice.
I don't know what your reasons are for your interest, but I've got a pretty good inclination they're just like 99.999% of the other people out there who once read a Mercedes Lackey book and thought elves were cool.
Can you please stop with the prejudice?
In a reply I made earlier I explained why such faulty ideas like yours are formed. So many people just jumping into magick due to fantasy figures like Harry Potter without understanding what magick truly is. Due to people like that a bad image is generated about the entire occult.
A proper dedicated practitioner of magick, which is the majority of the entire community, so a minority group who gets into it due to fantasy figures and they will drop out sooner or later because of self created "bad" experiences.
The small group ruins it for the dedicated practitioners and make it hard for us to be taken seriously. Which is very frustrating.
Then again saying people get into it due to fantasy and saying all that we do is fantasy makes me realize you haven't read this topic, which you also stated due to lack of time. Still I suggest you do because Cug and I explained what magick truly is and how it is done. It'll take away most of the prejudice....I hope.
Originally posted by Enyalius
There is indeed caution needed, but most people overdo it going from one extreme to another. It is either very very dangerous and life threatening (religious people) or nothing can go wrong and you should do as you please (new-age flufbunnies). Going to extremes is unhealthy so try to find the balance like a proper occultist/realist/scientist does.
Well said!
There is only one stream within ALL of magick that uses sex. This is related to the Green Man Tantric Sex.
*Cough, Cough*
Actually there is more than Tantra. You have the writings of Paschal Beverly Randolph, The O.T.O., An Arabic Magick order that the name escapes me, Chaos Magick, even Wicca has a sex magick ritual (I think it's called The Great Rite). A lot of them have some tantric background but they are diffrent enough to call them separate systems.
And I agree that many people use it only to get laid which is a shame (disrespectfull as well)
I tried that... Hey baby wana do some sex magick? didn't work. OK sorry I'm getting a bit silly :-)
A proper dedicated practitioner of magick, which is the majority of the entire community, so a minority group who gets into it due to fantasy figures and they will drop out sooner or later because of self created "bad" experiences.
Or they get out when they find out you can't do cool things like shoot lightning out your fingers.
It'll take away most of the prejudice....I hope.
Not gona happen my friend. At best we can make a few people aware of what we really do, but the prejudice will live on.
It's like when I post about Crowley, all I hope for is to at least get people to hate him for stuff he actually did (and the lord knows that should be enough!), and not the myths.
I missed this comment before
Perhaps you could explain a bit of what Thelema is like?
That IMHO would be getting off topic and veering into a religious discussion.
[edit on 4/5/2006 by Cug]
Originally posted by Cug
Originally posted by Enyalius
There is only one stream within ALL of magick that uses sex. This is related to the Green Man Tantric Sex.
*Cough, Cough*
Actually there is more than Tantra. You have the writings of Paschal Beverly Randolph, The O.T.O., An Arabic Magick order that the name escapes me, Chaos Magick, even Wicca has a sex magick ritual (I think it's called The Great Rite). A lot of them have some tantric background but they are diffrent enough to call them separate systems.
Really? I personally have seen very little differences in each form. Then again it's one of the many subjects that is still on my indepth research list for the future. Need to get the fundaments solid first.
What kind of fundamental differences are there?
Personally I've choosen the Eastern Tantrism because I have a strong affinity with the east. It is also a good way to increase health and stamina which greatly becomes usefull when making love to your partner. Long lasting harmony of love which keeps building up untill you release the energies you've build up together. We make love to create love
Why get together with people to send ernergy around the globe when you can make the same energies yourself exponationally more effective and stronger and a lot more fun to create. Add the fact you can release some sigils at the point of climax OR release those build up energies and you got a powerfull form of magick right there.
Being silly is cool. Constant seriousness is a drag and you need to unwind regularly. The Occult Comedy Center was an idea I was playing with. such as "Hey baby, go invoke Aphrodite so we can have some fun tonight". A lot of cheesy opening lines and funny situations can be formed.
[edit on 5-4-2006 by Enyalius]
Originally posted by Enyalius
What kind of fundamental differences are there?
keeping it G rated...
The major one is
Tantra = You don't spill the seed
Crowley = You replant the seed
A good article about it (but still with some errors)
www.esoteric.msu.edu...
Basically what happened is Crowley didn't fully understand Tantra and his system sprang from that missunderstanding.
BTW that site is an excellent site, an honest to god peer-reviewed academic journal about Magick.
Being silly is cool. Constant seriousness is a drag and you need to unwind regularly. The Occult Comedy Center was an idea I was playing with. such as "Hey baby, go invoke Aphrodite so we can have some fun tonight". A lot of cheesy opening lines and funny situations can be formed.
Magick and humor go well together. Sorry a bit offtopic.
How To Summon Ye Dæmon Aleister Crowley To Visible Appearance
Liber Call Me Al vel, vel, now. sub figura skating
The Milkman Letters *Fixed link
more
[edit on 4/5/2006 by Cug]
Sex magick is used by a number of different magickal traditions, in fact, I'm hard-pressed to think of one that doesn't, although I'm sure they're
out there. A good book to read about sex magick is, oddly enough, called "Sex Magick" by Donald Michael Kraig. He is very knowledgeable and
well-respected by people who know him within the pagan/witchcraft community in California. I believe his tradition is OTO and he also has studied alot
of estern tantrik. His is generally acknowledged as the best book on sex magick that there is. He tells you how to do it and includes some eastern
philosophy as well as OTO exercises, banishing, etc.
-Forestlady
-Forestlady
Enyalius,
I'd be happy to answer your points in earnest. Understand that there is, however, an enormous differences between predjudice and experience.
How delightful that one can just automatically point and say "You're wrong" with such certainty about a subject that requires a very open mind to consider seriously. Not "I disagree", or "my experience was different", but rather "You're wrong"... nice... I really hope no one takes advice from you until your mind opens a bit more.
And that's exactly what I said. Magic should be treated with as much, if not more caution than a gun.
I've had a rather extensive education in firearms of multiple varieties. Just because you know your way around one doesn't give you license to use it irresponsibly. Additionally, the concept that "a gun itself is not dangerous" is false. If I point my finger at you and shout "bang" you are unlikely to suffer lead poisoning such as you might experience were I to actually point a gun at you and fire it. It is a symbiotic relationship: the human AND weapon together are what constitute a danger.
The same exact thing may be said of magic. Magic, like a firearm, is a means of transferring energy from one end to another. By itself, that energy tends to either maintain its own balance or remain inert until an outside stimulus sets it off.
The difference between firearms and magic is in the scale and scope of energy used:
A bullet has comparatively little energy behind it. You are moving one single object, in one direction, with only one instance of thrust. It's area of effect is localized only to the width of the bullet, it's resulting trajectory through the air, and the damage resulting from impact. Ultimately, though, the amount of energy consumed has already been measured ahead of time and is limited to the amount of primer in the shell casing.
Magic, on the other hand, has no such set limitations. The only limiting factor is the capacity of the caster to move energy to point X (X being the end result they are attempting to achieve), and not their intention. Energy could care less about intention, it cares only for the forces that govern it.
Put another way, if I intend to bowl a 6-10 split, I can try it. However, the end result is not dependent on my intention, it is dependant on the force I put upon the ball, the rotational spin placed upon it counter to the direction it travels, the angle it strikes the pin at, the friction and angle of the floor, and so forth. Neither the ball, nor the pin, care about my intent, they only care about the final vector and force of the equation of other energies leading up to it.
Hence, it may be my intention to cause rain to end a drought. I cast about for rain, and viola! A storm appears and a lot of rain falls, and along with it comes all the collateral damage of homes and businesses flooding, and lives lost drowning. Did I intend for people do die or for a family to lose their home? No, of course not. However, it is the natural result of energy and water balancing itself out after being redirected towards an end.
Also is the consequence of where the water came from. The natural cycle of transpiration does not create water, it transfers it. Clouds forming do so because of the amount of vapor that condenses in a given area, and they rain because too much accumulated. So where did that water vapor come from? There are really only three choices. Either it's taken from the land below (in which case, you're further drying it out--wringing a sponge out to try and rewet it with the same water), a nearby body of water (in which case you have removed a clean layer of water and in the end replace it with polluted runoff), or from neighboring areas (thus causing them artificial drought in turn).
I place no blame on magic whatsoever. It's a means of transferring energy towards point X. What I blame are the people who fail to understand this fact, and leave other people suffering in the wake of the "equal and opposite reaction".
You both miss and exhibit the very problem listed in Premise #2.
Think about the reason most people ever persue anything outside the norm in their lives. It is ultimately for one of two things. Sex, or Power. I addressed Power in points #1 and #3. I address Sex in this one. Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that there aren't at least a healthy portion of "magic users" who got into the whole mess because they ultimately wanted to get laid? Especially among teen agers? I sure as hell did.
Ultimately, it ended up being the same exact reason for my leaving. No one really knew or cared what magic truly was. All they wanted was an excuse to role play with each other, and ultimately, to get naked with someone they fancied, and call it energy play.
Now this is not to cast aspersions on the beliefs or practices of others. Personally I'm quite fond of sex, nudity, and hell, even role play. However, using (or pretending at) magic as an end just to achieve these things is quite reprehensable. I would cast just as much of a frown upon those who carried around a gun just because it looked cool and they hoped the sight of it would get them laid.
I have no response for this except that anything that speaks in terms of absolutes in terms of ritual or religion I'm going to dismiss as dogma.
I'm not here to discuss dogma. I'm here to talk about magic. There's a huge difference. A devout catholic is just as capable and likely to use magic as someone who is a complete atheist, or someone who claims a lineage of past lives of nothing but famous witches.
Only a complete fool things every problem has an easy solution. Either that or someone who has never truly dealt with a real problem, and instead has only experienced minor inconveniences in their life. Would that we were all so blessed. I'd be really curious to see if you still hold the same delusion in 10 years time.
Care to qualify that statement? Because as it stands, it's incomplete. I believe an adjective is needed between the words "A" and "practitioner."
Something like, oh, say "cautious," "responsible," or perhaps even "mature."
No, a statement formed by prejudice would be "People who still spell magic with a "k" have yet to outgrow the goth phase of childhood."
Saying that "magic is not the answer to all your problems" is just plain common sense.
Okay, now thrice you accuse me of prejudice, and yet you support, each time, the very contention that you accused of being false. Yes. A vast majority of people who get into magic do so because of the wrong reasons (of which fantasy figures can be included). That was my whole bloody point. I fail to see how that is anything more than observation and warning.
And read what? Your repeated accusations that going into magic cautiously, and only for the right reasons, is prejudice against the magic users of the world?
If that is truly your attitude, I feel sorry for your "students" and hope to god all they are being taught is how to pose dramatically and mispell words in order to look cool. Because if you are truly teaching them to not bother examining their own motives, ethics, safety, and consequences of using any tool, then you are the worst kind of teacher there is.
Now the reality would appear to me that we both actually agree in full:
People need to be cautious when using magic.
People shouldn't use magic for overly selfish or capricious means.
People shouldn't do it because they think it will make them cool.
I'd be happy to answer your points in earnest. Understand that there is, however, an enormous differences between predjudice and experience.
Originally posted by Enyalius
In most cases you're wrong so I take you up on the last sentence you wrote.
How delightful that one can just automatically point and say "You're wrong" with such certainty about a subject that requires a very open mind to consider seriously. Not "I disagree", or "my experience was different", but rather "You're wrong"... nice... I really hope no one takes advice from you until your mind opens a bit more.
Originally posted by Enyalius
Originally posted by thelibra
1.) Yes, "magic" works. So does a "gun". Magic should be treated with as much if not more caution than a gun.
You make it look as if magick is more dangerous then a gun, but you overlook one major aspect here. The gun itself is NOT dangerous, the person who wields it decides on what the gun does.
And that's exactly what I said. Magic should be treated with as much, if not more caution than a gun.
I've had a rather extensive education in firearms of multiple varieties. Just because you know your way around one doesn't give you license to use it irresponsibly. Additionally, the concept that "a gun itself is not dangerous" is false. If I point my finger at you and shout "bang" you are unlikely to suffer lead poisoning such as you might experience were I to actually point a gun at you and fire it. It is a symbiotic relationship: the human AND weapon together are what constitute a danger.
The same exact thing may be said of magic. Magic, like a firearm, is a means of transferring energy from one end to another. By itself, that energy tends to either maintain its own balance or remain inert until an outside stimulus sets it off.
The difference between firearms and magic is in the scale and scope of energy used:
A bullet has comparatively little energy behind it. You are moving one single object, in one direction, with only one instance of thrust. It's area of effect is localized only to the width of the bullet, it's resulting trajectory through the air, and the damage resulting from impact. Ultimately, though, the amount of energy consumed has already been measured ahead of time and is limited to the amount of primer in the shell casing.
Magic, on the other hand, has no such set limitations. The only limiting factor is the capacity of the caster to move energy to point X (X being the end result they are attempting to achieve), and not their intention. Energy could care less about intention, it cares only for the forces that govern it.
Put another way, if I intend to bowl a 6-10 split, I can try it. However, the end result is not dependent on my intention, it is dependant on the force I put upon the ball, the rotational spin placed upon it counter to the direction it travels, the angle it strikes the pin at, the friction and angle of the floor, and so forth. Neither the ball, nor the pin, care about my intent, they only care about the final vector and force of the equation of other energies leading up to it.
Hence, it may be my intention to cause rain to end a drought. I cast about for rain, and viola! A storm appears and a lot of rain falls, and along with it comes all the collateral damage of homes and businesses flooding, and lives lost drowning. Did I intend for people do die or for a family to lose their home? No, of course not. However, it is the natural result of energy and water balancing itself out after being redirected towards an end.
Also is the consequence of where the water came from. The natural cycle of transpiration does not create water, it transfers it. Clouds forming do so because of the amount of vapor that condenses in a given area, and they rain because too much accumulated. So where did that water vapor come from? There are really only three choices. Either it's taken from the land below (in which case, you're further drying it out--wringing a sponge out to try and rewet it with the same water), a nearby body of water (in which case you have removed a clean layer of water and in the end replace it with polluted runoff), or from neighboring areas (thus causing them artificial drought in turn).
I place no blame on magic whatsoever. It's a means of transferring energy towards point X. What I blame are the people who fail to understand this fact, and leave other people suffering in the wake of the "equal and opposite reaction".
Originally posted by Enyalius
Originally posted by thelibra
2.) There are much easier ways to get laid that don't get nearly as embarassing or awkward later on in life.
Huh? What are you on about? Since when does magick and sex get used in one and the same sentence? Tell me so I can try it as well?
You both miss and exhibit the very problem listed in Premise #2.
Think about the reason most people ever persue anything outside the norm in their lives. It is ultimately for one of two things. Sex, or Power. I addressed Power in points #1 and #3. I address Sex in this one. Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that there aren't at least a healthy portion of "magic users" who got into the whole mess because they ultimately wanted to get laid? Especially among teen agers? I sure as hell did.
Ultimately, it ended up being the same exact reason for my leaving. No one really knew or cared what magic truly was. All they wanted was an excuse to role play with each other, and ultimately, to get naked with someone they fancied, and call it energy play.
Now this is not to cast aspersions on the beliefs or practices of others. Personally I'm quite fond of sex, nudity, and hell, even role play. However, using (or pretending at) magic as an end just to achieve these things is quite reprehensable. I would cast just as much of a frown upon those who carried around a gun just because it looked cool and they hoped the sight of it would get them laid.
Originally posted by Enyalius
There is only one stream within ALL of magick that uses sex. This is related to the Green Man Tantric Sex.
I have no response for this except that anything that speaks in terms of absolutes in terms of ritual or religion I'm going to dismiss as dogma.
I'm not here to discuss dogma. I'm here to talk about magic. There's a huge difference. A devout catholic is just as capable and likely to use magic as someone who is a complete atheist, or someone who claims a lineage of past lives of nothing but famous witches.
Originally posted by Enyalius
Originally posted by thelibra
3.) There are no easy solutions to any problem. If you think Magic is the key to solving your problems, think again. In general, it's always going to be easier to use hard work and elbow grease, in lieu of a spell.
There are easy solutions to every problem and they're not even magick related. People make it more difficult and complex then it should be.
Only a complete fool things every problem has an easy solution. Either that or someone who has never truly dealt with a real problem, and instead has only experienced minor inconveniences in their life. Would that we were all so blessed. I'd be really curious to see if you still hold the same delusion in 10 years time.
Originally posted by Enyalius
A practitioner of magick doesn't think that magick is a means to end all problems.
Care to qualify that statement? Because as it stands, it's incomplete. I believe an adjective is needed between the words "A" and "practitioner."
Something like, oh, say "cautious," "responsible," or perhaps even "mature."
Originally posted by Enyalius
Once again a statement formed by prejudice.
No, a statement formed by prejudice would be "People who still spell magic with a "k" have yet to outgrow the goth phase of childhood."
Saying that "magic is not the answer to all your problems" is just plain common sense.
Originally posted by Enyalius
Originally posted by thelibra
I don't know what your reasons are for your interest, but I've got a pretty good inclination they're just like 99.999% of the other people out there who once read a Mercedes Lackey book and thought elves were cool.
Can you please stop with the prejudice?
In a reply I made earlier I explained why such faulty ideas like yours are formed. So many people just jumping into magick due to fantasy figures like Harry Potter without understanding what magick truly is. Due to people like that a bad image is generated about the entire occult.
Okay, now thrice you accuse me of prejudice, and yet you support, each time, the very contention that you accused of being false. Yes. A vast majority of people who get into magic do so because of the wrong reasons (of which fantasy figures can be included). That was my whole bloody point. I fail to see how that is anything more than observation and warning.
Originally posted by Enyalius
Then again saying people get into it due to fantasy and saying all that we do is fantasy makes me realize you haven't read this topic, which you also stated due to lack of time.
And read what? Your repeated accusations that going into magic cautiously, and only for the right reasons, is prejudice against the magic users of the world?
If that is truly your attitude, I feel sorry for your "students" and hope to god all they are being taught is how to pose dramatically and mispell words in order to look cool. Because if you are truly teaching them to not bother examining their own motives, ethics, safety, and consequences of using any tool, then you are the worst kind of teacher there is.
Now the reality would appear to me that we both actually agree in full:
People need to be cautious when using magic.
People shouldn't use magic for overly selfish or capricious means.
People shouldn't do it because they think it will make them cool.
Originally posted by forestlady
A good book to read about sex magick is, oddly enough, called "Sex Magick" by Donald Michael Kraig. He is very knowledgeable and well-respected by people who know him within the pagan/witchcraft community in California. I believe his tradition is OTO and he also has studied alot of estern tantrik.
I don't think he's ever been a member of O.T.O. I spoke to him on several occasions soon after he published "Modern Magick: Eleven Lessons In The High Magickal Arts" about much of its content, including the chapter on techniques that resemble the O.T.O. IX°. We discussed Crowley at length, but if memory serves, he'd said he never belonged to any Thelemic organizations.
He is, however, a member of Builders of the Adytum, as am I. He is also a member of several Eastern Tantric organizations, including AMOOKOS.
He may not be a member but he seems to practice OTO or some other related magick - but then again it's just my impression, I don't know that much
about OTO magick, but you do use Lesser Banishing rituals, etc. I think? I remember asking him about his trad, but I don't remember the answer.
Anyway back to Real Magic...I've talked with Don a number of times about magick (he's an acquaintance of mine) and we agree that more evil magick has been done by the subconscious than the conscious, meaning we inadvertently practice harmful magick when we wish someone evil. I haven't found too many other mages who think about that aspect of magick. This is a very good reason why you really need to know yourself and especially your Shadow, when doing magick but unfortunately, I don't think it's stressed enough in the magickal community in general. Does OTO provide any guidance on that? It seems that OTO folk, in my experience, address that more than anyone, is why I wonder.
-Forestlady
Anyway back to Real Magic...I've talked with Don a number of times about magick (he's an acquaintance of mine) and we agree that more evil magick has been done by the subconscious than the conscious, meaning we inadvertently practice harmful magick when we wish someone evil. I haven't found too many other mages who think about that aspect of magick. This is a very good reason why you really need to know yourself and especially your Shadow, when doing magick but unfortunately, I don't think it's stressed enough in the magickal community in general. Does OTO provide any guidance on that? It seems that OTO folk, in my experience, address that more than anyone, is why I wonder.
-Forestlady
i'll probably be repeating some things already said, but in my experience of magic (which is not all wiccan in nature, for your information, nor
pagan) it all has to do with your will power, and the willingness of your subject to believe.
there are countless stories of people, in voodoo for example, who have succumbed to spells simply because they believed they would. here's an example:
from www.plim.org...
this is the same with healing spells, as well. if you tell someone "when i lay my hands on your head, your headache will be cured," if the person truly believes in you, chances are they will be cured by the power of their need to believe.
there are countless stories of people, in voodoo for example, who have succumbed to spells simply because they believed they would. here's an example:
from www.plim.org...
...The story began with a young Negro boy lodged in a friend’s house overnight. The next morning the friend prepared a breakfast of wild hen, a food strictly forbidden by their custom and tradition. The boy asked his friend if he had cooked wild hen and was told no. So he ignorantly ate the wild hen. “..A few years later when the two met again, the old man asked the younger if he would eat a wild hen. He answered that he had been solemnly charged by the wizard not to eat that food. Thereupon the host began to laugh and asked why he refused it now after having eaten it at his table before. On hearing the news the Negro immediately began to tremble, so great was he possessed by fear, and in less than 24 hours he was dead.” Again we see a trivial situation of eating a wild hen causing a catastrophe because the eater believed the interpretation or meaning attached to eating the forbidden food.
this is the same with healing spells, as well. if you tell someone "when i lay my hands on your head, your headache will be cured," if the person truly believes in you, chances are they will be cured by the power of their need to believe.
www.plim.org...
Originally posted by aniiohsowtf
i'll probably be repeating some things already said, but in my experience of magic (which is not all wiccan in nature, for your information, nor pagan) it all has to do with your will power, and the willingness of your subject to believe.
there are countless stories of people, in voodoo for example, who have succumbed to spells simply because they believed they would. here's an example:
from
...The story began with a young Negro boy lodged in a friend’s house overnight. The next morning the friend prepared a breakfast of wild hen, a food strictly forbidden by their custom and tradition. The boy asked his friend if he had cooked wild hen and was told no. So he ignorantly ate the wild hen. “..A few years later when the two met again, the old man asked the younger if he would eat a wild hen. He answered that he had been solemnly charged by the wizard not to eat that food. Thereupon the host began to laugh and asked why he refused it now after having eaten it at his table before. On hearing the news the Negro immediately began to tremble, so great was he possessed by fear, and in less than 24 hours he was dead.” Again we see a trivial situation of eating a wild hen causing a catastrophe because the eater believed the interpretation or meaning attached to eating the forbidden food.
this is the same with healing spells, as well. if you tell someone "when i lay my hands on your head, your headache will be cured," if the person truly believes in you, chances are they will be cured by the power of their need to believe.
I agree with your post here it does have nothign to do with wiccan or pagan or even witchcraft or any thing humans just have to give it a name so they give it that it is only the froce of power that most peopel will never understand and few can truly use it
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[edit on 5-4-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]
Originally posted by Vash
I agree with your post here it does have nothign to do with wiccan or pagan or even witchcraft or any thing humans just have to give it a name so they give it that it is only the froce of power that most peopel will never understand and few can truly use it
actually, as everyone has will power, everyone can use it. it's more of a "will they" question. even praying to god is magic, willing something good... or bad to happen.
[edit on 5-4-2006 by aniiohsowtf]
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