The Bible is not the word of god

Nakash:
I assume that by Myt, you mean me, as such I have no idea what you're talking about. Please clarify. What is it that I have posted that leads you to the conclusion that it needs editing? Likewise, please show me where I am lecturing others on why they shouldn't believe in God?

Ofcourse, if Myt, is referring to someone else, this makes perfect sense, and I apologise for my incorrect assumption.

Produkt:
Finally, a logical answer from you. Congratulations!

Please show me where I indicated that the God I was speaking of was my own? If anything I believe I was speaking about the God YOU were testing for. How is the God I believe in relevant to the subject of you testing your God? Why is attributing very explainable events to God, illogical when accepting the POSSIBILITY that God doesn't exist? If I here a noise in the sky, I can attribute it to a plane, whilst still accepting the possibility that no plane is in the sky at all, can't I?

At any rate I never indicated that I was attributing anything to God, just that it was a possibility that YOU choose to ignore. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Don't be an idiot. You can't claim something exists either. Proof is a subjective thing, each individual defining what is sufficient for themselves.

It is just as nonsensical to claim something exists with a lack of evidence as it is to claim it DOESN'T.

It is not logical to claim God doesn't exist because YOU did not get your proof. It is the same sort of nonsense to say "There is no such thing as a hundred dollar bill" if you've never had one before. I am not declaring god to exist, as that would be presumptuous of me... just as it is ILLOGICAL and NONSENSE of you to declare it doesn't exist because YOU did not receive what YOU demanded.

My beliefs are seperate from logic, sometimes the two coincide, many times they do not.

Ok wait... who's being the idiot here? You just said ...

Just because it did not supply you with proof which YOU desired does not make it logical to state it doesn't exist.

AND

Who defines what proof constitutes? Are you saying that your definition supercedes the definition of the entity you are attempting to address?

But NOW your telling me I'm being an idiot for doing just that. Just because my idea doesn't fit with YOUR view's of proof doesn't make it logical to state it doesn't exist. Now your turning the other cheek and claiming that this toaster doesn't exist. May not exist by YOUR definition of proof, but it could by MINE. So who's the true idiot here? By YOUR definition, that would be you. Your not only contradicting yourself, but when I'm using your own words to make a point against this nonsense you feel the need to attack and play childish name calling game's with me.

Acutally, let's pick apart your reply to me so you can try and understand how contradictive it is.

Don't be an idiot. You can't claim something exists either. Proof is a subjective thing, each individual defining what is sufficient for themselves.

Ok, and my subjective proof state's that there is no god. By all definition here people are just claiming a god exist's.

It is just as nonsensical to claim something exists with a lack of evidence as it is to claim it DOESN'T.

Right, which is why I brought up the toaster issue. You may call me an idiot, I may call those of faith idiot's. But do you have proof that my claim isn't true? Have you been the the center of the earth to witness there is no intelligent toaster there causing earthquakes? I think not tyvm.. But then again, you did just state that proof is subjective.

It is not logical to claim God doesn't exist because YOU did not get your proof. It is the same sort of nonsense to say "There is no such thing as a hundred dollar bill" if you've never had one before. I am not declaring god to exist, as that would be presumptuous of me... just as it is ILLOGICAL and NONSENSE of you to declare it doesn't exist because YOU did not receive what YOU demanded.

But wait... where's the true logic here? If proof is subjective then how is it illogical that my subjective proof dictate's that there is no god, but it's not illogical for those of faith to say there is a god due to their subjective proof? There's the contradiction buddy.

My beliefs are seperate from logic, sometimes the two coincide, many times they do not.

Everyone's free to believe in what they choose. Sure, my intelligent toaster may be sperate from logic, but you can pick on me for that when your stating that your belief's are sperate from logic as well. Another contradiction.

Originally posted by mytym
At any rate I never indicated that I was attributing anything to God, just that it was a possibility that YOU choose to ignore. Feel free to prove me wrong.

This statment then, does not make any sense. If your not trying to convince me that I'm ignoring event's attributed to a god, then... what are you trying to convince me of? Also, it's abit hard to prove you wrong on any of your intention's when I don't know your intention's.

But then again, if I'm choosing to out right ignore any such sign's, then that would indicate that I have some tiny amount of doubt on why something happened or if it were an act of god. Unfortunatly this isn't the case. I'm not 'choosing' to ignore anything. I'm just simply stating that I haven't experienced anything in my life that I didn't know what the cause was. Therefore, through my own subjective proof's there is indeed no god. Perhaps through your subjective proofs there is a god. Unfortunatly I don't choose to follow an unquestioning blind faith doctrine to come to those same subjective proofs. I choose to learn.

Produkt:
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm merely explaining my intentions as you put it. Those intentions are to demonstrate the flaw in your logic. I am not concerned if you are convinced, for the flaw exists whether you realise it or not.

I'm glad you can finally admit that the absolute claims you made in regards to God not giving you any signs for the last 20 odd years are subjective in nature, thus not absolute.

If there's flaw's in my logic for proof of no god through my own experience's then there's flaw's in your logic for proof of a god through you experience's. We can't both be right, which cause's even more of a problem. Now, if what god/jesus said is true about how all prayer's get answered, then shouldn't mine have been answered in such a way that I would experience the power of god in the same manner as anyone of faith? Personally, I DO consider my statements against god as absolute. It's not only based upon my own experience's but also based upon thousand's of year's of human evolution and discoveries. Nothing remains the truth for long. Including your god. He's 'evolved' right along side with science.

I'm not trying to prove God's existence, as I mentioned earlier, I'm simply demonstrating the flaw in disguising a subjective view, as you have freely admitted yours is, as an absolute truth.

Why do you persist in reintroducing irrelevance into our discussion?

It's not irrelevent as we both share the same flaw. Now if I'm wrong based upon my flaw, then your equally wrong based upon the same flaws.

I wasn't the one making the absolute statement, was I? How do I share the same flaws as you in this regard?

[edit on 24/2/06 by mytym]

Or you both don't know.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence... that is where you are an idiot, Produkt. And also in thinking that your definition of proof is better than anothers.

As for whether or not God Exists, I'd argue that nobody knows for certain, only for themselves... and whether they are right in their microcosm is subject to suspicion.

Point out where I stated that I thought my definition of proof was better.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Well then, you can't exactly say there isn't an intelligent toaster in the center of the earth causing earthquake's no can you?

As for whether or not God Exists, I'd argue that nobody knows for certain, only for themselves... and whether they are right in their microcosm is subject to suspicion.

Well, if I'm an idiot for that, then so are you and every single member on this board.

Why yes, Produkt. Everyone is an idiot in that sense... less an idiot if they can admit that they don't know.

Socrates.

Originally posted by Produkt
...Now, if what god/jesus said is true about how all prayer's get answered, then shouldn't mine have been answered in such a way that I would experience the power of god in the same manner as anyone of faith? Personally, I DO consider my statements against god as absolute.

Produkt, when you pray... Do you pray in humility? When you pray... Do you earnestly seek the truth? When you pray... Do you repent before God and forgive your enemies? When you pray... Do you shed tears of sadness and joy in the name of God? When you pray... Do you believe in your Lord and expect an answer? I cannot know the answers to these questions for certain, but I do not need to. Only you need to, Produkt. God does not show himself to just anyone, but only those who are righteous and holy in spirit and mind. Cleanse yourself, show humility, forgive others, and most of all... show your devotion and love to God. Then, when your spirit is hopeful and loving, I am certain that God will show himself to you. The Bible can explain this better than I can, so here:


"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." ~1 Corinthians 2:14-16~

"The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon him in truth. He will fulfuill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them." ~Psalm 145:18-19~

"Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know." ~Jeremiah 33:3~

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." ~Matthew 7:7~

"Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." ~1 Thessalonians 5:16-18~

"I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting..." ~1 Timothy 2:8~

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life..." ~Jude 20:21~

"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight." ~Isaiah 42:16~

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus, our Lord..." ~Philippians 4:6-7~

Produkt... I am sorry that your life has been so empty. I am sorry that everywhere you turn, it feels like sadness follows. I am sorry that misguided christians persecute you and hate you... But I promise to you, that when you pray, you will not be alone. I will pray alongside with you and I promise that I will never stop praying for you. Pray for truth, for light, and for hope. The Lord will show you things you have never seen, just as he has shown me. You may have given up on God, but God will never give up on you.

Prokukt, I so understand how you feel, we all do sometimes, but there is proof there is a God, your standing on it..earth
this planet was tailor made for man to live on, from the air we breath to the ground we walk on..to the food we eat..and someone had to put it here..and us here..and it was not by mistake trust me hehe
and as for God not talking to you..or showing you a sign..well he is not doing much of that these days, so dont feel left out..not to much fire falling from the sky as of late ..no parting of seas..or burning bush..and He talks..some what..but Hes here..always..just not sure what Hes up to these days..or what the plan is..the thread was about ..is the bible the word of God..no i dont think it is..I think the thread should be..do we know what God has in store for us..because I dont think we really know that as well..as for me..I just Know that who ever He is..and whatever He has planned He does know what he is doing..and in the end..it will all turn out for the best for everyone
oh i wanted to add..that it does not say anywhere in the bible..that you have to believe its the word of God in order to be saved..so does it really matter in the long run

[edit on 25-2-2006 by loralees]

Blue,

That's all unquestioning blind faith tactic's to 'find' god. I'm sorry, but I like to be more open rather then blindly attributing everything to an unseen diety that just may not exist. Well, so far everything does point to him not existing. ToE as well as other theories dictate how we got here, and we can clearly see an evolution in religous belief's that lead up to today's monotheistic religion's. Which is still furthur evolving into other belief's and interpretation's. just as it always has through out history.


loralees,

Incorrect. You percieve this planet as to being tailored for human life. We evolved on this planet and so it is thus suited to our species. We can't go live on mar's or venus, or europa or titan can we? No, we never evolved there and so those planet's aren't suited to our life. Have you ever stopped to think why people stopped attributing lightening to Zues or other natural occurance's to a variety of gods? Why don't we believe in those original god's? We questioned and we learned and we grew. There's a reason why 'god' doesn't perform 'miracles' anymore. First off, most of the bible is false, some of it is outright stolen from older religous belief's, and the final kicker, just as we learned where lightening came from, we learned howto perform many of the same miracles performed in the bible. A good magician/illusionist today can easily walk on water or turn water into wine, amongst many other 'miraculous' thing's in the bible.

Originally posted by Produkt
Blue,

That's all unquestioning blind faith tactic's to 'find' god. I'm sorry, but I like to be more open rather then blindly attributing everything to an unseen diety that just may not exist... and we can clearly see an evolution in religous belief's that lead up to today's monotheistic religion's.

Produkt, don't you think that great people throughout our history have ever questioned their religion? If Leonardo Da Vinci spent decades developing new technology, don't you think that he would once think about his religion too? Don't you think that he would once question his religion and question God too? Of course he would, he was neither narrow minded nor ignorant. In fact, Leonardo Da Vinci was so religious that he joined the "Priory Of Sion", which was a secret clan that vowed to keep the secrets of Jesus Christ, even if it costs them their lives. Da Vinci eventually became the head-master of this clan too.

God expects us to question Him, He knows that it is in our psyche. God expects you to question him too, but you are questioning God the wrong way. Instead of saying "Hey God, show yourself to me right now," and not expecting any answer, try earnestly praying and humbling yourself. As I said earlier, God does not show himself to just anyone, only those who truly believe in him. I questioned God too, and only 4 years ago I was a complete aetheist. I disbeleived God and hated religion. To me, God was a horrible thought that compelled man to murder. But 4 years ago, my life completely turned around.

I decided to give religion an honest chance, and I'm infinitely glad that I did. God showed himself to me and my father. Believe it or not, my father was saved twice by angels that he himself saw. He has a condition called cerebral atrophy which takes away his balance. In other words, he cannot walk, eat properly, or take showers without someone helping him. But besides his physical condition, he is the same man with the same thoughts and memories that I have loved since I was born. Without God's help, my father would have died 3 years ago. As for me, well if you want to I can tell you my story and how God showed himself to me. But knowing you, your current state of mind will not want to hear my "ignorance".

And I'm curious about your last statement, in what way has God's view evolved? God still wants us to follow the ten commandments, and he still continues to love us to this day. I have no doubt that man's viewpoints of God have evolved to suit their own needs, but we musn't blame God for what man does.

There is no such thing as faith for political gain .. go figure!

Well, if the bible is the word of the Christian god, he's not a very nice guy.

Do I REALLY have to go over the not-so-nice stuff in there? Really? Fine...

If this book is really the word of this deity, he is homophobic, jealous (a strange trait for a god), ill-tempered, bloodthirsty, and genocidal. And I don't wanna hear that "stop flaming" crap, I didn't write that stuff in the book. I didn't punish billions of people for the mistake of 2, kill 2 cities of gay dudes, flood an entire planet, order people to kill gays, sorceresses, their enemies and their enemies' children, and lay out how they were to enslave people. That wasn't me...it was the word of God.

It looks like you lot are arguing about who God is...if this is what you are doing, you are wasting your time. You are getting frustrated because someone see's differently to you. What the hell is the point?

Get over it, people have their own beliefs. God is God. God is everything. God is 1 thing. God is life. God is truth. God is peace. It all means the same thing...

And I'm curious about your last statement, in what way has God's view evolved? God still wants us to follow the ten commandments, and he still continues to love us to this day. I have no doubt that man's viewpoints of God have evolved to suit their own needs, but we musn't blame God for what man does.

Go back in time. Roughly 6ish thousand year's ago. Dawn of the sumerian civilization. One of the very first civilizations spawned by the human species. Where was god back then? Why no mention anywhere durring that time period?

Now go back a little furthur, roughly 12-10,000 years ago. Hell, can't even find mcuh refrence's to even polytheistic god's we learn about when we study the ancient greek's and roman's. And still no mention of your monotheistic god. Why?

Go back even furthur, 200,000 year's ago. Man hardly even had an oral language, let alone a written language. Now unless you believe in the young earth concept, can you explain why early man goes from no language, to developing language, then to worshipping nature itself, then onto polytheistic dieties and roughly 3ishK years ago onto monotheitic diety. Your doctrine is recent in the human species. There's a reason for that. It's false and man made.

Your still asking me to just have faith. And We already went over how I can not have unquestioning blind faith. I chose to learn and from what I've learned, there is no god. And by your method's of 'discovering' god I must first acknowledge that he exist's and then attribute something in my life as to being an act of god. Thus far, thanks to NOT having unquestioning blind faith, I know exactly what's been going on in my life and why and what the causes were. So far, nothing has indicated to me that there is a higher power. Sure, I could CLAIM it came from a higher power, but I don't like to kid myself and play imaginary friend game's.