The Bible is not the word of god

You have voted Produkt for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Produkt, you are awesome. I agree 100% with everything you are saying. I think the whole parent/child comparison is excellent, I'm gonna have to use it some time.

Like what Loralees said, there's something missing. Something just doesn't add up.

I don't want to get into an alien discussion or anything but I must say, I'm a believer that there was some intervention from someone, be it aliens or a god, who had seen what the effects of having a civilization with no morals or rules had done, so they basically gave us a set of rules to live by to try and keep us orderly.

The old testament "is" the word of God given to the Hebrews letter by letter. And God commanded them to preserve his word letter for letter. Whether they did infact keep it that way is between God and them. The New testament is "accounts" of the disciples experiences while in the presence of Jesus. Several of the disciples give slightly different accounts of the same incident, I believe, because they experienced it from a different vantage point. I believe the "real" conspiracy of the Bible comes into play when you see that the disciples just werent getting the message Jesus was giving them. There are numerous times where Jesus says, dont you get it yet? And the only one that seemed to get the message was Mary Magdalan. And how she was portrayed as a prostitute where there is no mention at all of it in the Bible. I truly believe that DaVinci knew this when he painted the last supper and painted the disciple to his right in a leaning position away from him to show that it was Mary that was the "beloved" disciple and not the male disciples that was next to him at the table. After all the church did commision him to paint it and he had to be true to his belief while not including Mary in the painting.

The Bible cannot be true as it constantly contradicts itself. Yet it might be an inspiration to good morals and proper conduct. So let us see what the Bible says about goodness, justice, kindness, morality and respect for family, friend and neighbor.
Let us look at some of the sexual morals that are in the Bible. I will begin with Genesis 19. As I read the story, two "angels" are guests in Lot's house when "the men of the city" come to the house and Genesis 19:5-8 reads: "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them. (6) and Lot went out the door unto them and shut the door after him: (7) and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. (8) Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known men; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes; only unto these men do nothing, for therefore they came under the shadow of my roof."
Naturally, I cannot know what that says to anyone else, but to me it seems to say: "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known men; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes;".
What kind of father would offer his children to a mob to be used as they see fit? I will be honest with you, if you were a guest in my house, I would protect you with all my might, but if it came to the point of it being either you or my children, it would be you. And I would expect the same, if it were your choice between your children or me. If it were God himself, if there is a God, he would go before my children. I am not a Christian. I am very pro- family, my innocent children come first.
But that is not the end of the story, it goes on and gets worse. In Genesis 19:31-32, Lot's daughters are talking: "And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our Father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come unto us after the manner of all the earth: (32) come let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father."
And this seedy story goes on until Genesis 19:36 reads: "Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father."
Now I know that is not what the Bible says to you who believe it to be "the word of God." But to me, it seems to say: "Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." To me that story is pure filth, but others say there is no filth, and no immorality, in the Bible, so I do not know what that story says to others, but to me it is pure filth. And, to me, filth cannot be a part of "the word of God."
There are many stories in the Christian Bible that I believe are immoral, pure filth. but that one will serve as an example for the rest. After all, we are considering the Bible as "the word of God," we need only one "bad" story, only one contradiction, only one untruth or injustice, to prove the Bible is not "the word of God."
Let us consider God's justice as recorded in the Bible.
King David obtained one of his many wives through kidnap, rape and murder. The story is in the second book of Samuel, chapter 11, and verse 4 reads: "And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him and he lay with her . . ." I hope you will forgive me for repeating such filthy stories, but that is what the Bible says. The story goes on and Bathsheba is pregnant. David has her husband, Uriah, killed and in verse 26 and 27 we read: "And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. (27) And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord."
Good! Now we will have a chance to see God's justice in action. How did God punish David for those most awful crimes? How do you think such a terrible man should be punished? Well, God's punishment for David's crimes can be read in the second book of Samuel, chapter 11: verse 15, it reads: "And the Lord struck the child, that Unah's wife bore unto David, and it was very sick." and verse 18 reads: "And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died." Believe it or not; God's idea of justice for the murder of Bathsheba's husband, was for God himself to murder Bathsheba's innocent baby. That is God's justice according to the Christian Bible.
I don't know what that story says to a believing Christian, but if what I understand the Bible to say, is what it says, it would take a very deprived mind to believe the Bible is "the word of God."
Let us consider the Commandments of God, according to the Bible. There are not just ten Commandments, as many people seem to believe, but hundreds. There are no less than 73 chapters filled with the Commandments of God. And a God being what a God is, every Commandment must receive the same obedience as every other Commandment. Now, let us see what God hath Commanded.
Exodus 22:18 reads: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." When Christianity had power these eight words caused hundreds of thousands of innocent people to be tortured and burned alive. That Commandment is of the same group as one version of the, so called, Ten Commandments.
God's Commandment in Exodus 21:2 reads "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go free for nothing." Exodus 21:4 reads "If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's and he shall go out by himself." Remember, these are God's Commandments, and God's justice, according to the Bible. Exodus 21:5-6 reads "And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children: I will not go out free: (6) Then the master shall bring him unto the judges . . . and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever."
The Bible always upholds slavery, and has always been the greatest obstacle to justice and human progress in the world. Who said God was pro-life?
I have often pointed out to Christians that Christianity has caused untold suffering in the world. That history is so filled with Christian wars, persecutions, torture, burning and hate that no gentle and kind person would call himself a Christian if they knew the truth of Christian history.
The answer is always the same: "How can I, or any Christian today, be held responsible for what people, who called themselves Christians, have done in the past?" And yet, according to the second Commandment God holds the children responsible for the mistakes, or crimes of their parents, "even unto the third and fourth generation." In fact the entire concept of Christianity is based upon "original sin," the ultimate in unjust hereditary guilt. I do not believe in hereditary guilt. The very idea that we, the human race are born in sin because of some small misdeed that Adam was said to have done is foolish. No! It is more than foolish, it is insane. Such insanity is not of God.
The very idea that God would have to be born to a virgin, or anything else, and then have to be murdered by mankind, in order to forgive mankind, is very insane. I believe a God would do just as you would do if your child had been naughty, and you had became angry for a while. You would not say to that child: Bringeth thou me a hammer and hitteth thou me upon thine hand, hard, that I mayeth forgive thee thy naughtiness that thou hath done."
No! You would go to the child, and you would take that child into your arms, and you would tell your child that you love him/her with all your heart, and that you could never really be angry with him. That he/she means more to you than your own life. That is what you would do, or should do: That is what I would do, and any book that says God would do any less simply cannot be the word of God.

If you know any history at all you know when the Bible was established, and Christianity had power, Christians tortured and murdered those who doubted or disagreed with their Bible.
And whenever Christians lose the power to persecute, they slander and call "immoral" those they can no longer persecute.
And yet Christians call the Bible "the word of God," and themselves "moral"!!
Today Christianity has gained its dangerous power in America by teaching Bible, instead of nation; by confusing piety with patriotism; by calling good Americans "Communists," good patriots "traitors." They teach hate and distrust against those who uphold the great American ideals of separation of state and church and hate against the American courts that dare to uphold our nation's Constitution.
Christianity has suppressed and changed American history, has hidden quotes, facts and evidence which prove that Christianity and the Bible was recognized as the enemy of freedom by those who founded this nation. Christians have hidden the fact that the Founding Fathers struggled to insure freedom of conscience; struggled to put Christianity in its rightful place -- the equal of every other religious opinion; struggled to put the Bible in its rightful place -- the equal of every other book.

This above is a small sample of Emmett F. Fields "Is the Bible the word of God" Debate. It has opened my eyes and had me rethink my programming.

No worries, that's why we're here, to consider new possibilites I think.

Think or know? Consider which possibilities? Perhap's god isn't even a god. Maybe he's some geeky computer nerd running a simulation on his computer. There's a good possibility to consider.

No, he doesn't like sin. There was a time when we were without it and loved us greatly because of it. Now, we have to do a bit of reaching out to re-establish that relationship.

Seem's kind of odd to me that we're being punished for something we didn't do. Do you punish someone's entire lineage for a crime commited by one person? Perhaps entire families should be put to jail for the crime of one family member. Make's sense going by god's action's. Monkey see monkey do.

I don't consider my faith "blind". I've heard of those who do and admire them for that. Must be nice to know the truth without having to go through a lot of trial and error to get there.

Faith is blind. Never seen him in the flesh. Never talked to him face to face. Never physically touched him. All you've got going for him is a blind faith of his existance. You don't know for a fact he exist's. You just have faith that he exist's. Can you say for a fact that he created everything and that nothing would exist today without him? Satan sure is helping out thousand's of scientist's to consider other possibilities of how the universe and life can occur without god. Possibilities that make complete utter total sense if one bother's to learn about them enough.

You'd rather not exist than exist? To be nothing would make you happy? The reason the world is crap isn't God's fault.

If not existing means not having to deal with pain and suffering, then yes, I'd choose non existing. How many people do you know that just love to see pain and suffering? And yes, the world being crap is god's faul. He created it and he created evil right along side of it. He's supposedly all knowing and all powerfull, so he already knew satan would rise against his word and become a source of evil. He has the power in his little pinky finger to ping satan out os existance. Yet he does not. It's his own short comming's for why evil, pain and suffering still persist's in today's world. He created all this and he has the power to fix it.

Just as you would hold any parent accountable for allowing their child to suffer in life, so should god be held accountable. Anyone know the number to the multiverse DSS services?

He did try and is trying but will not do it without your consent, that's the way a relationship works. For example, can you force a person to love & marry you? If you could, would you want to?

He's not trying at all. He hasn't tried before either. Before he just decided to wipe us out and start over. He's punished us rather then trying to talk to us. If god came down before me right this second, I would change my tune in the blink of an eye. He chooses not too. That's his problem, not mine. You could say this is a case of a dead beat father. They bring life into the world then run off never to be a part of that kids upbringing. Well, if god is real, then I'm feeling very abandoned here.

I don't get to make the rules.

Sure, you may not have made that rule, but we should be following all of god's rule's should we not? To tell you the truth, if that were the case, I'd be dead right now. Murdured in front of my own family. I cursed at my mom quite a few time's. By god's word, I should have been killed for that. If you'd like I'd be more then happy to quote a few verses of god's law's that are today against man's law's. So, who's law's should we be following? If god's, then where can I order up a few slave's so I can relax abit?

Revelation 20:11 talks about a judgement, but knowing the number of mistakes we people typically make, it doesn't look like it'll be easy.

In our U2U session we already confirmed god said he would not do what he did to us. Yet he says he will. He clearly look's like a liar to me.

Obviously fear does not work. So yes, you have an option.

I guess fear doesn't work 100% of the time, no. But gee, what an option I get. Either way you slice it, it's still love me or rot in hell.

I see, so you want to be a robot with God controlling every movement and breath so that all we can do it right and perfect?

So are you agreeing with god that this world need's evil, pain and suffering? Seem's rather sick and pathological to me. Perhap's this is god's form of sport or other entertainment activity.

Yes, here, now, no probably not yet. Can't make guarentees either, that's up to you.

Nope, not up to me. It's up to god. And he know's that. So far he's failing as a father.

He said He would not flood the earth. He has not since and will not according to Him. That's what we were talking about. I didn't say He promised everyone would live for all eternity.

Ooooh, so just as long as he doesn't flood us again, then any other act of genocide is perfectly acceptable. Ah ok... it all make's sense now.

I agree we should follow the law. He did not say there is no redemption for mistakes however. In fact, there's a great deal about forgiveness and turning away from sin to "go and sin no more". There's a whole Book there and should be taken into account from beginning to end.

Seem's like his law's are open game for interpretation by those of faith. Why is it that you don't own a few slave's? Surely your not afraid of lowly man's law's against it?

Hm?

Maybe they don't teach all of christianities crimes in church? But I just remembered, god does say something in the christian bible about how witch's aren't allowed to live.

Yes.

Well? Get on with it. Name just one miracle that's clearly done by him without question.

He decided to go through the human experience to say, "Yes Produkt, I DO know what you've gone through".

Huh? I'm not following you there on that one. Failed to make any sense with me there.

All in good time, be patient. Things may be purposeless and uncontrolled in our minds, does not mean it is that way.

Yes, because a just, loving, caring, and all forgiving god just need's to have evil for some twisted purpose. Sorry, I don't put my children through unecessary evil. I could have them taken away for that.

The Word of God says Test It and See If It isn't So!
He Will Show That It Is Indeed So!
Some could have been added or deleated but Curseth is anyone who did, the Lord said!
But I believe, God allowed what is there, enough for us to find Him!
It also says, "He has now given us the ability to go directly into the Holy of Holies into the Throne Room of Grace and ask Anything".........
There is where He Will Teach Us All What We Need To Know, & More!
Angel

Originally posted by AngelWings9999
The Word of God says Test It and See If It isn't So!
He Will Show That It Is Indeed So!
Some could have been added or deleated but Curseth is anyone who did, the Lord said!
But I believe, God allowed what is there, enough for us to find Him!
It also says, "He has now given us the ability to go directly into the Holy of Holies into the Throne Room of Grace and ask Anything".........
There is where He Will Teach Us All What We Need To Know, & More!
Angel

Heh, I've tested and so far everything is pointing to it isn't so. He hasn't shown anything to me, nor will he ever. If he even does exist that is. I haven't seen anything that point's to a god, and if life itself is going to be had as an argument for god, it's a rather weak argument imo.

Originally posted by Produkt
Think or know?

I personally think it's good to consider possibilities not thought of before. I'm sure there are those who disagree.

Originally posted by Produkt
Consider which possibilities? Perhap's god isn't even a god. Maybe he's some geeky computer nerd running a simulation on his computer. There's a good possibility to consider.

Is it a good possibility? Really? Let's think about it for a second...

Originally posted by Produkt
Seem's kind of odd to me that we're being punished for something we didn't do. Do you punish someone's entire lineage for a crime commited by one person? Perhaps entire families should be put to jail for the crime of one family member. Make's sense going by god's action's. Monkey see monkey do.

So you're saying you've always believed in God and have always done everything He has asked you to do?

Originally posted by Produkt
Faith is blind. Never seen him in the flesh. Never talked to him face to face. Never physically touched him.

And it's a good thing too, last one who did was turned into a pillar of salt.

Originally posted by Produkt
All you've got going for him is a blind faith of his existance. You don't know for a fact he exist's.

I do, yes. Others...maybe, maybe not.

Originally posted by Produkt
You just have faith that he exist's. Can you say for a fact that he created everything and that nothing would exist today without him? Satan sure is helping out thousand's of scientist's to consider other possibilities of how the universe and life can occur without god. Possibilities that make complete utter total sense if one bother's to learn about them enough.

I don't agree that "faith is blind". If it can be for some, they have my respect, but wasn't the case for me.

If not existing means not having to deal with pain and suffering, then yes, I'd choose non existing.

Ah, so you mean you'd like heaven. Now we're talking and maybe I can help.

How many people do you know that just love to see pain and suffering?

None, I sent not to "know" them.

And yes, the world being crap is god's faul. He created it and he created evil right along side of it. He's supposedly all knowing and all powerfull, so he already knew satan would rise against his word and become a source of evil. He has the power in his little pinky finger to ping satan out os existance. Yet he does not. It's his own short comming's for why evil, pain and suffering still persist's in today's world. He created all this and he has the power to fix it.

He sure does have the power to fix it, though again disagree saying that the wrongs we committed against Him is His fault.

Just as you would hold any parent accountable for allowing their child to suffer in life, so should god be held accountable. Anyone know the number to the multiverse DSS services?

He has committed no neglect. He gave us the opportunity to choose the path to be with Him or without Him. We chose without Him, but there is that opportunity again to get on the path with Him. It is our choice with us being the proof and examples of that choice.

He's not trying at all. He hasn't tried before either.

And you know this...how?

Before he just decided to wipe us out and start over.

Er, hello, we're still here.

He's punished us rather then trying to talk to us.

Actually He did try talking to us. Man blamed the woman (whom he was standing next to when she was deceived) and woman blamed the serpent. The "blame game" is the oldest one we've played besides the "disobediance" one.

If god came down before me right this second, I would change my tune in the blink of an eye. He chooses not too. That's his problem, not mine. You could say this is a case of a dead beat father. They bring life into the world then run off never to be a part of that kids upbringing. Well, if god is real, then I'm feeling very abandoned here.

The analogy is a bit mixed up. Rather, you've run away from home and refusing to come back because everything that's wrong in the world is the Father's fault.

Sure, you may not have made that rule, but we should be following all of god's rule's should we not? To tell you the truth, if that were the case, I'd be dead right now. Murdured in front of my own family. I cursed at my mom quite a few time's. By god's word, I should have been killed for that. If you'd like I'd be more then happy to quote a few verses of god's law's that are today against man's law's. So, who's law's should we be following? If god's, then where can I order up a few slave's so I can relax abit?

Still hung up on the letter of the law like the Pharisees huh? Keep reading, there's more to the story.

In our U2U session we already confirmed god said he would not do what he did to us.

You are correct that He said and will not flood the earth

Yet he says he will.

Really? Where?

He clearly look's like a liar to me.

As you have said, despite the demonstration otherwise.

I guess fear doesn't work 100% of the time, no. But gee, what an option I get. Either way you slice it, it's still love me or rot in hell.

Oh...you're looking for the "love yourself and be God" option. Sorry, that's entree is not on the menu.

So are you agreeing with god that this world need's evil, pain and suffering? Seem's rather sick and pathological to me. Perhap's this is god's form of sport or other entertainment activity.

The book of James says by trials we are made complete. It may not feel like it, and we may not understand why, but take it or leave it.

Nope, not up to me. It's up to god. And he know's that. So far he's failing as a father.

No He's not. Since you hung up the phone He's trying to send you letters.

Ooooh, so just as long as he doesn't flood us again, then any other act of genocide is perfectly acceptable. Ah ok... it all make's sense now.

It looks pretty selective to me in Revelation. The flood didn't seem to be. Just my perspective though, what's written is written.

Seem's like his law's are open game for interpretation by those of faith.

Uh, no. My rules would be "everybody wins". Obviously I'm not in charge and there's good reason for that.

Why is it that you don't own a few slave's? Surely your not afraid of lowly man's law's against it?

I am a slave myself friend, for the same reasons I was in the Bible. Last I checked, slaves couldn't own slaves.

Maybe they don't teach all of christianities crimes in church?

I'm pretty aware of the failings of wo/men in the church. Don't know what that has to do with God.

But I just remembered, god does say something in the christian bible about how witch's aren't allowed to live.

Old law, already addressed, keep reading.

Well? Get on with it. Name just one miracle that's clearly done by him without question.

Saved me from death (suicide) and hell. I'm sure the opinion is that it wasn't Him, but my response to that is, "you weren't there".

Huh? I'm not following you there on that one. Failed to make any sense with me there.

Christ was born in the same way all people were to live the full experience as we have. To be tempted as we are, and yet be without sin.

Yes, because a just, loving, caring, and all forgiving god just need's to have evil for some twisted purpose. Sorry, I don't put my children through unecessary evil. I could have them taken away for that.

If you've disciplined your child (as a teaching parent should) then they have gone through a measure of hurt and pain. Does this mean you had some twisted purpose in doing so?

Originally posted by Produkt
Heh, I've tested and so far everything is pointing to it isn't so.

The lab results aren't back yet, keep testing.

Originally posted by Produkt
He hasn't shown anything to me, nor will he ever.

He has, is and will. You can choose to not look if you wish.

If he even does exist that is. I haven't seen anything that point's to a god, and if life itself is going to be had as an argument for god, it's a rather weak argument imo.

Then look for more.

Saint, Produkt, why is it that neither of you seriously consider the ramifications of a truly omnipotent being?

Produkt took it only so far as saying that God Created Evil because "he" knew what Satan was to do. It is a lot worse than that.

If one is to believe the literal bible, and that God is Omnipotent, you have to realize that God defined the rules. All the suffering, all the testing, everything is done in the purvue of this is how God wanted it to be. Not only that, but EVERYTHING that happens, from the birth of a child to the violent rape and murder of a woman, ALL gods plan.

There is no way to reconcile this logically, there is absolutely no argument to be made for why it must be this way... why isn't there? Because if the universe is mutable to God "he" could have MADE it another way, still accomplished what "he" wanted to do and yet not put such hypocrisy into place. Realise that to God, there is no FINITE way of doing something... He makes the rules, he can break the rules and he can make them in ways that we could NEVER possibly fathom because we have the rules we have today, whatever they are.

Stating "You cannot deign to fathom the mind of god" is a quitter's answer to such a problem. I propose that there are TWO omnipotent beings of EQUAL value always in conflict, neither of which was made by the other directly.

I personally think it's good to consider possibilities not thought of before. I'm sure there are those who disagree.

Hmm... Most men of faith find it hard to consider not only the possibility but the actual evidence for mankind evolving from primitive primate's.

Is it a good possibility? Really? Let's think about it for a second...

Good by who's term's? Your's or the geeky computer nerd running the simulation? It wouldn't matter how YOU felt. You'd just be a highly advanced simualtion. Perhap's this geeky computer nerd is just running the latest alogrithim's for studying how his universe was created. It IS a possibility, and one that can neither be proven nor disproven.

So you're saying you've always believed in God and have always done everything He has asked you to do?

No no no, you've mistaken me. I don't believe in god. I'm just saying if there is one as told in the bible that his form of punishment is abit extreme. You never answered my question tho... heh, funny.

And it's a good thing too, last one who did was turned into a pillar of salt.

Really? And what evidence do we have to back this up? Many people write many thing's in books. Not all of it is true however.

I do, yes. Others...maybe, maybe not.

Wait.. Yes to blind faith I assume, correct? Surely you don't have actual evidence. You could single handedly topple thousand's of year's of scientific discoveries with your evidence.

I don't agree that "faith is blind". If it can be for some, they have my respect, but wasn't the case for me.

So you've seen, talked to and felt god in the physical form? All without turning into a pillar of salt? Damn ... You got some mighty power's there.

Ah, so you mean you'd like heaven. Now we're talking and maybe I can help.

Again, you've mistaken me. I would not want to exist period. I would not want to exist in a world of pain and suffering and without peace just to live through it all to get to a heaven. That's BS.

None, I sent not to "know" them.

Can you clear that up abit for the rest of us. So far, from what I can tell, you don't know anyone who actually love's to see pain and suffering. Could you furthur explain why god would put mankind through all this then? Doesn't make any logical sense to me so far.

He sure does have the power to fix it, though again disagree saying that the wrongs we committed against Him is His fault.

Ah, so basicly your just sticking up for big 'ol daddy. Would you stick up for your biological father if he commited genocide's and murdure's too? Personally, I'd turn mine in so he can serve the time he deserve's to serve. You commit a crime, you get punished for it. No and's if or but's about it. if he supposedly created the universe along with life and along with EVIL, that's HIS crime against humanity. He allowed for evil to run it's course through all of mankind and he should be held accountable for that, not worshipped.

He has committed no neglect. He gave us the opportunity to choose the path to be with Him or without Him. We chose without Him, but there is that opportunity again to get on the path with Him. It is our choice with us being the proof and examples of that choice.

You go tell that to the thousand's of dying third world children who are starving to death every day. You tell them god isn't just neglecting them and that he has a reason for them to SUFFER NEEDLESY and DIE SLOW HORRIBLE INHUMANE DEATHS. Not neglectful my arse. I'd not only have my children taken away for that but I'd also be on death row for that kind of treatment.

And you know this...how?

I refer you to the above as one example. If you need more example's I'd be more then happy to start a new thread with picture's of the very people god allow's to suffer and live in pain without any logical just reason.

Er, hello, we're still here.

Oh sry ... he did allow just a few brown noser's to live. My bad.

Actually He did try talking to us. Man blamed the woman (whom he was standing next to when she was deceived) and woman blamed the serpent. The "blame game" is the oldest one we've played besides the "disobediance" one.

Uh ... and he's supposedly all knowing so he already KNEW it was the serpents fault. So what'd they get punished for? Being ignorant? *gasp* the very same ignorance he created us with?! Without the concept of right and wrong... man what a moron.

The analogy is a bit mixed up. Rather, you've run away from home and refusing to come back because everything that's wrong in the world is the Father's fault.

Nope, it's a perfectly good analogy. From my life experience's, if he does indeed exist then he is in fact a dead beat father. He's given me no reason thus far to have faith in him.

Still hung up on the letter of the law like the Pharisees huh? Keep reading, there's more to the story.

Hmm... Did you know there's more verses from god in the bible in favor FOR slavery then the contradictory statement's against slavery? I find that rather odd and a pretty good indicator for which way he bend's towards.

You are correct that He said and will not flood the earth

So do you agree with god'd plan to destroy us any other way he see's fit, so long it's not another flood?

Really? Where?

Not the flood, but he does say he's comming to destroy us again does he not? Or am I reading revelation's wrong?

As you have said, despite the demonstration otherwise.

What demonstration? Have you not read the bible? For example, in one verse he's for slavery in another he's against it. Perhap's it's just a severe case of bi-polarism then?

Oh...you're looking for the "love yourself and be God" option. Sorry, that's entree is not on the menu.

I'm not looking for any option. I'm just saying, even you don't have much of an option. Like I said, either way you slice your option's it's love me or goto hell. And you being a man of faith, which option would you rather? I know... answer's already obvious.

The book of James says by trials we are made complete. It may not feel like it, and we may not understand why, but take it or leave it.

Really? Then why not make us with evil from the start? Where's the logic here? Anyone?

No He's not. Since you hung up the phone He's trying to send you letters.

Must not be all knowing then, he's sending them to the wrong address. Haven't gotten one thing yet.

It looks pretty selective to me in Revelation. The flood didn't seem to be. Just my perspective though, what's written is written.

Selective from who's perspective? Sound's an awful lot like god mean's what he's saying there. So should lowly you be taking it from your perspective or his?

Uh, no. My rules would be "everybody wins". Obviously I'm not in charge and there's good reason for that.

Hrmm, too bad your not in charge then.

I am a slave myself friend, for the same reasons I was in the Bible. Last I checked, slaves couldn't own slaves.

Ah, if we're all slave's to god and can't own slave's then wth was his whole thing in favor of slavery for in the bible? Hello... Logic issue alert.

I'm pretty aware of the failings of wo/men in the church. Don't know what that has to do with God.

God's the one who said that witch's shouldn't live. The good ol christian's were just following his word. Perhap's a bible verse would refresh your memory?

Old law, already addressed, keep reading.

Hmmm, maybe the christian's forgot to read too.

Saved me from death (suicide) and hell. I'm sure the opinion is that it wasn't Him, but my response to that is, "you weren't there".

You've wholly mistaken what miracle that is unquestionably from him. For instance ... the parting of the red sea. Anything similar going on today? Or ... fatima! A whole sun moved by god breaking the entire law's of physics without destroying the entire solar system in the process.. Now THAT is a miracle. But gee... doesn't seem anything of that caliber is happening in today's world either. Or or or... walking on water! Ah crud... only ppl who do that today are stage magician's. OoOoOooo... turning water into wine!!! Think of all the drunks who'd love that one! Ah wait... that was magic trick was also done by ppl back in jesus' time too. Well damn... idk then.

Christ was born in the same way all people were to live the full experience as we have. To be tempted as we are, and yet be without sin.

Ok I'm confused... was he or was he not god?

If you've disciplined your child (as a teaching parent should) then they have gone through a measure of hurt and pain. Does this mean you had some twisted purpose in doing so?

There's a difference between a five minute timeout and a talking too which is generally followed by a hug and I love you's. Compared to you guy's are gunna live in a world of pain and suffering and you'll have to deal with so many hardship's it's not even funny. Not only that! But from this point on your entire lineage is going to be punished to! Sure... they might not have done the crime you did, but they sure are gunna pay for it so they know how awful you two were. A just god indeed We should take his example and apply it to our own laws!

Originally posted by saint4God
Is it a good possibility? Really? Let's think about it for a second...

Perfectly good possibility. Care to say why it isn't?

And it's a good thing too, last one who did was turned into a pillar of salt.

Biblically speaking, that was not god, that was Michael. Very rarely do you see god himself on earth... even the burning bush was typically identified as a messenger angel conveying gods will, even though it spoke AS god (Theories concern Metatron/Enoch in the matter of the bush).

Originally posted by Produkt
I do, yes. Others...maybe, maybe not.

Are you then only posessing of heavenly wisdom, and lack the mortal kind?

Originally posted by Produkt
I don't agree that "faith is blind". If it can be for some, they have my respect, but wasn't the case for me.

All things are blind, mankind stumbles in the dark grasping for firmness. In the end, one must believe in something, be it science or God or yourself.

Ah, so you mean you'd like heaven. Now we're talking and maybe I can help.

See, here's where we'd disagree again. I would rather my soul were destroyed utterly than to have to be free of pain and suffering... for it is contrast to my joy, and makes it more precious unto me.

None, I sent not to "know" them.

Pain is a beautiful tragedy of the world... some of which I wished did not happen, but I would not do away with mankind's suffering. It is where our true souls are revealed.

He sure does have the power to fix it, though again disagree saying that the wrongs we committed against Him is His fault.

Well, it is in a sense... if one is to believe the literal bible. See my post above.

He has committed no neglect. He gave us the opportunity to choose the path to be with Him or without Him. We chose without Him, but there is that opportunity again to get on the path with Him. It is our choice with us being the proof and examples of that choice.

Actually, I think it is a parent's duty not to make their child's life too easy... otherwise you are a worthless parent who only enables weakness in their children. If a young adult cannot stand on their own and deal with their own suffering and the suffering of the world as they carve out their place in it, then the parent is at fault. Either that or the kid was always worthless.

Actually He did try talking to us. Man blamed the woman (whom he was standing next to when she was deceived) and woman blamed the serpent. The "blame game" is the oldest one we've played besides the "disobediance" one.

I've said this countless times before.... Have you read "Ishamael" Yet, Saint?

Produkt Said:
If god came down before me right this second, I would change my tune in the blink of an eye. He chooses not too. That's his problem, not mine. You could say this is a case of a dead beat father. They bring life into the world then run off never to be a part of that kids upbringing. Well, if god is real, then I'm feeling very abandoned here.

Requiring God to prove itself to you makes me think you deserve whatever hardships you endure, because that is a ridiculously presumptuous thing to ask. God doesn't favor any particular child of his over another. As for your opinion of his abandonment, how exactly does an omnipresent being abandon someone? That someone has to ignore their existence.

Still hung up on the letter of the law like the Pharisees huh? Keep reading, there's more to the story.

Not only is there more to the story, but most of the biblical laws are ridiculous and should not be taken seriously.

But then, I am not a literal bible worshipper.

Oh...you're looking for the "love yourself and be God" option. Sorry, that's entree is not on the menu.

Well, for some Christians it's not....

Produkt wrote:
But I just remembered, god does say something in the christian bible about how witch's aren't allowed to live.

God doesn't, Leviticus does if I'm not incorrect. And you should read some literature concerning translation, because the original text is "Thou shalt not suffer a Poisoner of Wells to live". The KJV of the Bible changed it to witches.

Yes, because a just, loving, caring, and all forgiving god just need's to have evil for some twisted purpose. Sorry, I don't put my children through unecessary evil. I could have them taken away for that.

Like my above comment, I sincerely doubt you guys truly consider what an All Loving being would be required to do.


[edit on 2/23/2006 by TheCrystalSword]

this discussion wouldn't be happening if jesus had taken the time to sit down and write the bible him self.

the prophet muhammed did it, and he didn't claim to be god. well, he got it from an angel, but jesus said he WAS GOD. god is to angels what santa is to elves, couldn't jesus have asked an angel to bring down the bible?

Produkt Hi

Ok well how about if you Ask God for a sign to see if it is True! He Will Show You! Either through a Dream or Vision or Visitation! I know He loves You exactly the way you Are! You have nothing to lose by Asking!
Angel

had spelled Produkts name wrong! oops

[edit on 23-2-2006 by AngelWings9999]

Originally posted by AngelWings9999
Produkt Hi

Ok well how about if you Ask God for a sign to see if it is True! He Will Show You! Either through a Dream or Vision or Visitation! I know He loves You exactly the way you Are! You have nothing to lose by Asking!
Angel

had spelled Produkts name wrong! oops

[edit on 23-2-2006 by AngelWings9999]

Been there done that. Plenty of time's. Even did so in this thread I think, or another. I forget. So far... nothing. Must be a mighty long waiting list.

Ok, then how about I pray that you will, of course with your permission Produkt?
Angel

Go for it, won't hurt to try will it

Chance's are nothing will happen. So if you really feel like wasting your time ...

[EDIT]

Oh yea.... can I get a time frame of when he's supposed to... you know... So far I've been on the waiting list for about 20ish year's now since my first time trying to check the validity of praying for a sign.

20 years is a looooong time to learn the truth. And so far it's pointed to him not being real.

[edit on 23-2-2006 by Produkt]

Produkt:
How can you be sure you haven't missed the signs, when they've been sent?

Uhhh... cuz I haven't experienced anything in my life that I couldn't explain or wasn't obvious for what the cause was or idk... exercising abit of common sense?

See, I never did look at a thunderstorm and say holy crud he's pissed now! No sir, I decided to learn what causes a thunderstorm.

What makes you think a sign from God, HAS to be something that can't be explained?

Uh um... gee. Yea... Well, if I can explain how something happen's from begining to end then I don't usually go wait nope... nah, that was really god man. Couldn't have beem like that for real.