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The Bible is not the word of god

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posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 02:17 PM
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I do want you to answer all my questions, and am glad that you don't mind accomodating, just as I am happy to address any points you raise. However my sole purpose in these exchanges is to point out the flaw in using the Bible as undeniable proof that a 2nd set of commandments was handed down to Moses, due to it's subjective nature. I, as no doubt you are too, am well aware we will not be able to convince eachother of our respective views on this topic. We can address as many of eachother's points as we like, without ever getting a resolution on that front. The only help it provides is giving the other readers of this thread a better perspective to base their own opinions on the legitimacy of the thread topic. The fact that it also serves to satisfy my thirst for involvement in an intelligent, constructive, argumentative discussion is a fringe benefit of this
and it provides the incentive for me to continue the exchange. This is why we're even talking.

The fact that you and I are able to come to different conclusions after reading the same text, only serves to reinforce my point that, interpretation is necessary when reading the Bible. As interpretation is what subjectiveness is all about, my point is justified. I have read the enitre chapter and indeed book of Genesis and the fact that Abraham was blessed does not undeniably indicate he should be pardoned from obeying the 120 year restriction. As there is no passage which states that God made an exception to this rule, your conclusion can only be reached by imposing some degree of interpretation. I would interpret this blessing to be more closely tied to the fact that Abraham was able to father a child at 100 years of age, but that's just my interpretation, not proof. Maybe Abraham's blessing did allow him this luxury, but can you say the same for Shem, Arphaxed, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug and Terah, all of whom lived over 120 years as stated in Genesis 11? If you only need to enforce the 1 to 1000 conversion for passages that state God said it, then every passage that doesn't say this, is not the word of God.

I sense that you doubt my integrity when I made my affiliation remark, as if I was simply making it up to prove you wrong. I can assure you this is not the case. As it may not be appropriate to discuss this within this thread, feel free to U2U me and I will be happy to answer any question you have on the subject of my connection with God, for it is only difficult to provide non-contradictory answers when you are lying. In answer to your question, I came up with a hypothesis involving God and Jesus having no affiliation with the Bible and God converted it from a thought/idea to a truth, so that now I know this to be rather than just suspect it. In regards to knowing I will go to Heaven, until I started hanging around ATS, I was sure that when I die I would go to Heaven, but my belief is that Heaven is a place where you are at your happiest and it differes from person to person. Since ATS, I am beginning to think that dying is something that is only experienced in the physical world, thus none of us are ever likely to truly die. Once again, this is getting a little off topic, so feel free to U2U me and we can discuss anything else you wish to raise.

PS: I'm quite proud of the fact that I managed to condense this post to a fraction of my previous posts.




[edit on 1/2/06 by mytym]




posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by mytym
I do want you to answer all my questions, and am glad that you don't mind accomodating, just as I am happy to address any points you raise.


Alrighty, thanks for clearing that up. I feel less obligated
which is nice.


Originally posted by mytym
However my sole purpose in these exchanges is to point out the flaw in using the Bible as undeniable proof that a 2nd set of commandments was handed down to Moses, due to it's subjective nature. I, as no doubt you are too, am well aware we will not be able to convince eachother of our respective views on this topic. We can address as many of eachother's points as we like, without ever getting a resolution on that front.


Or, we both may learn something. Just because I hold a position doesn't mean I've thought of everything. I'd hope for the same flex on your end, which I think you've already demonstrated. Who knows, it may happen. I've changed before, and perhaps in some regards will again.


Originally posted by mytym
The only help it provides is giving the other readers of this thread a better perspective to base their own opinions on the legitimacy of the thread topic. The fact that it also serves to satisfy my thirst for involvement in an intelligent, constructive, argumentative discussion is a fringe benefit of this
and it provides the incentive for me to continue the exchange. This is why we're even talking.


Hear here!



Originally posted by mytym
The fact that you and I are able to come to different conclusions after reading the same text, only serves to reinforce my point that, interpretation is necessary when reading the Bible. As interpretation is what subjectiveness is all about, my point is justified. I have read the enitre chapter and indeed book of Genesis and the fact that Abraham was blessed does not undeniably indicate he should be pardoned from obeying the 120 year restriction.


True! Though if we look at the history of blessings through-out the book, there were pardons from death (Lazarus, Lot, and a few others come to mind) as well as a guarentee of eternal life after death. God wants life for us, death was brough upon us by us. It's a "whole picture" perspective, I'd not expect anyone to extract that from a single verse....though it may be in one somewhere (I'm not that good yet to be able to quote here and now). However, I'm always willing to pull out support if anyone wants me to do the homework. Yes, there are days that I don't want to, but understand the value of the effort.


Originally posted by mytym
As there is no passage which states that God made an exception to this rule, your conclusion can only be reached by imposing some degree of interpretation. I would interpret this blessing to be more closely tied to the fact that Abraham was able to father a child at 100 years of age, but that's just my interpretation, not proof.


This holds water though, as there's support for that.


Originally posted by mytym
Maybe Abraham's blessing did allow him this luxury, but can you say the same for Shem, Arphaxed, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug and Terah, all of whom lived over 120 years as stated in Genesis 11? If you only need to enforce the 1 to 1000 conversion for passages that state God said it, then every passage that doesn't say this, is not the word of God.


How many people have ever lived? How many exceptions to the rule are there. Best wishes on determining that fraction. I believe the people in the bible that are spoken well of were blessed...else they wouldn't be there. We don't hear about Brian who lived a normal life, sinned, and died at 54. And for good reason.


Originally posted by mytym
I sense that you doubt my integrity when I made my affiliation remark, as if I was simply making it up to prove you wrong.


I highly doubt you're arguing just to argue. Nothing in your posts would indicate to me such.


Originally posted by mytym
I can assure you this is not the case.


Then I have no reason to question it.


Originally posted by mytym
As it may not be appropriate to discuss this within this thread, feel free to U2U me and I will be happy to answer any question you have on the subject of my connection with God, for it is only difficult to provide non-contradictory answers when you are lying.


I gotcha, had a little trouble understanding what you meant on this the first read-through. I agree that consistency is very important.


Originally posted by mytym
In answer to your question, I came up with a hypothesis involving God and Jesus having no affiliation with the Bible and God converted it from a thought/idea to a truth, so that now I know this to be rather than just suspect it. In regards to knowing I will go to Heaven, until I started hanging around ATS, I was sure that when I die I would go to Heaven, but my belief is that Heaven is a place where you are at your happiest and it differes from person to person. Since ATS, I am beginning to think that dying is something that is only experienced in the physical world, thus none of us are ever likely to truly die. Once again, this is getting a little off topic, so feel free to U2U me and we can discuss anything else you wish to raise.


Aight, will do.


Originally posted by mytym
PS: I'm quite proud of the fact that I managed to condense this post to a fraction of my previous posts.


Hehe, congrats!

[edit on 3-2-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Feb, 21 2006 @ 07:11 PM
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hello there, my name is lora and i am new to the board ..so you will have to pardon me if I dont do reply to this right the first time


I am in the very odd postion of being a christian that does not believe in the bible, I know there is a God, just dont think this is His word, has far to many holes in it, and yes I have read it..from front to back, many times, and I do understand a good part of it..not all of it..but enough, and the bible was put togather by man, not God, and if it is His word, alot must have been left out..we are missing a huge piece of the puzzle here..

and the thing about Hell..well thats just not true at all ..Thank God



posted on Feb, 21 2006 @ 07:43 PM
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loralees:
I think you'll find your position is not that uncommon. I too, share similar views to yourself.

[edit on 21/2/06 by mytym]



posted on Feb, 21 2006 @ 10:23 PM
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I am in the very odd postion of being a christian that does not believe in the bible, I know there is a God, just dont think this is His word, has far to many holes in it, and yes I have read it..from front to back, many times, and I do understand a good part of it..not all of it..but enough, and the bible was put togather by man, not God, and if it is His word, alot must have been left out..we are missing a huge piece of the puzzle here..


What huge piece are you referring to?



and the thing about Hell..well thats just not true at all ..Thank God



So sure are you? How are you so sure? Just a guess?



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 12:35 AM
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This is my first post in such a forum. However, to answer the age old question of the bible and its actual meaning you have to take into concideration when and by whom it was written. If you realise that the beook was written in times of mass uneducation and lack of social order then it could be understood that the only way to control the uncontrollable would be with the story of a higher power that will punish. It is the human condition that breeds fear of the unknown, so introduce a power you cant see, feel or touch and people conform. Only due to the fact that "Hmmmmm what if I really will rot in hell??" syndrome exists in the majority



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by identitynone
This is my first post in such a forum. However, to answer the age old question of the bible and its actual meaning you have to take into concideration when and by whom it was written. If you realise that the beook was written in times of mass uneducation and lack of social order then it could be understood that the only way to control the uncontrollable would be with the story of a higher power that will punish. It is the human condition that breeds fear of the unknown, so introduce a power you cant see, feel or touch and people conform. Only due to the fact that "Hmmmmm what if I really will rot in hell??" syndrome exists in the majority


"Baaa baaa" Sure, those who are free call slaves. Anyone who has read the Bible could tell you it was not written by "some uneducated d00d who wanted to control the masses". Takes some spine-bending of the Book to realize that though.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 07:38 AM
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the piece of the puzzle i am referring to is..well its off topic but...without the carrot of heaven...and the great fear of going to hell..no one would read the bible at all..I dont think...
I mean if God came down tomorrow, and you knew it was God, and said, thanks for all the worship, and all the prayers, but I have to be honest, there is no heaven, there is no hell, when your dead your dead..end of story..the churchs would empty in a heartbeat..the piece we are missing..is knowing and loving God for who he is..not for what he can give us..or do for us..or to us for that matter.
as for hell..no its not a guess..if you want to use the bible to prove there is no hell..well i can do that..but seeing i dont believe in it..that is pointless..but say i had a child..and my child stole something..so to teach her not to steal..I held her hands over a fire in my front yard..now would not any of you stop me from doing that..could anyone stand by and watch me do it..NO..you could not..now if you as lowly humans could not stand to watch it..what on earth makes you think God could not only send people ..that he put here to such a place..but keep this place buring forever..do you have idea on how long FOREVER is..for a being to make a planet of people who didnt ask to be here..then tell them follow me or I will burn you forever in Hell..well the idea is just crazy..
and what kinda being..wants that kinda love from people anyway..thats not love or worships..its fear..



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 08:01 AM
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If you can come to God out of love and nothing else, I think that's a great and pure motivation. I also feel it is advanced thinking and feeling that one strives to obtain, not easily gotten. I try to do good things out of thanks for what God has done for me, out of my love for Him, not because I fear Hell because according to Him and His word I am already saved from that fate.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 08:39 AM
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Saved untill you stray from his word. Saved untill you've commited too many sins. As for me, I'm going to hell for talking junk about his existance and for not believing he exist's. Did I ask to be created? Nope. Do I enjoy all the tedious activities of life and the complete struggle to survive in today's world? Nope. What's my reward for all this? Hell.

A supposed loving, caring, and all forgiving god should not need me to believe nor worship him for creating me without asking if that's what I wanted. If he truely exist's and this is the life he's given me, then he already damn well know's I won't believe he exist's. If he chooses not to give me a sign that he exist's, then he damn well know's again, that I will not believe he exist's. So why punish me for his crime's against me?

What kind of just, loveing, caring, all forgiving god allow's his own creation to suffer in life, then again suffer in an eternal hell? Seem's like he's a hypocrit to me. And if god is reading this right now... Yea I said it. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

The dude had no problem destroying the entire world for LESS sin compared to the ammount of world wide sin commited today. Not even those who follow god even adhear to all 10 commandment's! So what's his master plan? Give up? Seem's so. All those account's of him trying to destroy sinner's in the HERE AND NOW, and yet he CAN'T do nothing today? What happened to all that power god? Guess he took his own advice to us... can use any plant on earth. Maybe he's toking one out right now with bob marley.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 09:21 AM
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'Did I ask to be created? Nope. Do I enjoy all the tedious activities of life and the complete struggle to survive in today's world? Nope. What's my reward for all this? Hell.' Produkt

And I believe 'do something about it.' was another statement you made. I doubt that God, if indeed real, would obey your commands...
I have challenged the devil the same way for 20 years, and he's either a real chicken, really sneaky, or.....
But, I love life. It is a gift, whether asked for or not. No one makes us live it. We can always say we quit before God fires us....
'You can't fire me, I quit!'
But I feel for you, in reality. Don't belittle the thing called life which you have gotten.
I don't care if there is a God, cuz I'd act the same either way.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 10:05 AM
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see thats the whole point..you cant make a planet of people who did not ask to be here..and then give them the option of worship me..love me..or I will burn you forever in hell..thats just nuts..what kinda of a being would do that..and what kind of hate would it take to burn the beings that you made in a fire forever..after all God would have to keep this going..
and life is a gift..everyday that I am here is a gift..and i dont have the best life..its not bad..but its not the best..the worst part about it..is seeing other people in pain really..
but there has to be more to it..then choice good or bad..its about understanding God..or at least trying to..to accpenting who He is..and what he is..and loving Him for that..I look at God like I look at my own children..I didnt want them to love and respect me..because i was i was bigger them they were..becasue i had contorl over them..but for who i was..and for them to do the right thing..because it was the right thing..not because I would punish them..
I think we should love God for the same reasons..not because He can kill or save us..and really that is what I think we are here to learn..and maybe we will stay here untill we learn that..I dont know
I am just not sure how we go about learning that



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by Produkt
Saved untill you stray from his word.


There's debate whether one can stray from God after having known Him. I think it's possible, after all, in the epistles there are warnings against it, but many may disagree. In either case, I have no desire (nor could imagine what would motivate me) to leave that relationship.



Saved untill you've commited too many sins.


I don't know where it says that's a disqualifier. We're all sinners, so by that thinking, none of us could possibly be considered saved.



As for me, I'm going to hell for talking junk about his existance and for not believing he exist's.


Doesn't have to be that way, and not for any of us here on earth to decide.



Did I ask to be created? Nope.


You're welcome



Do I enjoy all the tedious activities of life and the complete struggle to survive in today's world? Nope. What's my reward for all this? Hell.


If you think that's rough, try creating a person out of love only for them to slap you every opportunity they get. *ouch*



A supposed loving, caring, and all forgiving god should not need me to believe nor worship him for creating me without asking if that's what I wanted.


You're right, He doesn't need, only wants.



If he truely exist's and this is the life he's given me, then he already damn well know's I won't believe he exist's. If he chooses not to give me a sign that he exist's, then he damn well know's again, that I will not believe he exist's.


He doesn't force people to love Him. If He did, would they truly be loving Him?



So why punish me for his crime's against me?


Woe is you, right?



What kind of just, loveing, caring, all forgiving god allow's his own creation to suffer in life, then again suffer in an eternal hell? Seem's like he's a hypocrit to me. And if god is reading this right now... Yea I said it. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!


He did.



The dude had no problem destroying the entire world for LESS sin compared to the ammount of world wide sin commited today.


How do you know? Besides, out of love He'd promised not to do that again.



Not even those who follow god even adhear to all 10 commandment's!


The goal is to try our best.



So what's his master plan? Give up? Seem's so. All those account's of him trying to destroy sinner's in the HERE AND NOW, and yet he CAN'T do nothing today?


He is doing a lot today. Arguably more than He ever has in the past.



What happened to all that power god?


Still there.



Guess he took his own advice to us... can use any plant on earth. Maybe he's toking one out right now with bob marley.


Not sure why this picture was necessary to draw.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 10:26 AM
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But that's not what god says in the bible. To sum it up in a nice little package, he say's worship me or die. How's that for free will and choice? He doesn't say your here to learn that you need to love me. He never says anything to that effect. I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion from what he says in the bible.

Black,

I don't really expect god to listen to lil 'ol me, but if there is a god and he created everything without anyone's consent to have the live's they do, then it's not to hard to observe a little respect upon your own creation. Would you force your children to suffer their whole live's because they chose not to listen to you? Would you give them a living hell till they died? They never asked to be born, and yea sure, they should respect you, but you should also respect them. Especially the choice's they make as adult's. Not condem them to a living hell of suffering.

Is it not the duty and obligation of a parent to guide, to teach, and to help those children they brought into this world? Why should god be no different compared to a parent? If there is a god and he brought our existence into being, then he too should be obbligated and held responsible for our action's. Not the other way around. Do you put a child in jail for something the parent did? No. So why should we be punished in the afterlife for something god did?

Satan supposedly started the whole problem in the first place. We supposedly had no concept of right and wrong prior to being talked into eating from that tree of knowledge right? Satan says something in such a way that it make's perfect sense to ignorant eve, and adam come's to find sense in it too. Only untill AFTER they were tricked by their own ignorance does god decide to puish us. Does nothing to satan, he was already damned by god. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). So why punish us for our own ignorance? Why punish instead of guiding us while letting us still live a good life that ANY parent on earth would want for their child. No repectfull parent would put their child through pain and suffering just to teach them a lesson. It's barbaric and horrible. Someone should call DSS on god, cuz quiet frankly, he SUX at raising kids.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 10:31 AM
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He doesn't force people to love Him. If He did, would they truly be loving Him?

your wrong...love me or i will burn you forever in Hell..is not a choice and is being foroced...loving God..for who He is..without being punished for not..well that is a choice..

so the question is..are we really loving Him and worshipping Him..or do we just want to get to heaven and avoid going to Hell..do we really know God at all..or are we just scared little children..afraid he will stike us dead if we dont obey..I dont want that..I want to know Him ..love him for who he is accpet what he has done here..and understand it..not or of fear but understanding..



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Graystar
Let me leave you with this question: Ever wonder why so many atheist are so concerned with debunking Jesus more than any other Historical figure?


I'm glad to hear that hope rescued you, but the answer to the question you ask should be obvious. Yours is the dominant religion in the west, and is intrusive in the lives of those who don't share it.

If Christians just kept their religion private, few would care about whether or not there was a historical Jesus, or who he was. But they don't.

Blue laws are still on the books, evangelicals keep trying to sneak prayer and religion into the public schools and plaster the 10 commandments all over public buildings. Drugs are illegal for religious reasons, as is prostitution, gambling, etc. Christians try to pass laws to regulate what adults do in their bedrooms, or to limit the legal rights of nontraditional relationships.

Not to mention that the US is at war right now probably because of Bush's religious delusions.


Okay, my turn to chime in. (Nothing personal Spam. You very simply bottled pretty much every gripe society has against The Church in the above quote, so I'm actually using this for data.)

!. Do you have a problem with a "Day of Rest"? I'm sure your Boss will love to hear that!

2. "As long as there are Math tests, there will be prayer in school." Will somebody please tell me who originally said that anyway?

3. I live in California. If Drugs are illigal, as is prostitution, gambling, etc., I missed something. Besides, the last time I checked, alcohol was legal, as was sex with a consenting adult. (In the Bible, a prostitute is someone with whom you have unweded sex.)

4. Practically every state in the Union has struck down their sodomy laws. As for Gays getting married, (Let's face it, that's what you're arguing) why argue that Christians want to keep "Senate Bill XYZ" off the books? Isn't the point here to keep as many laws off the books as possible? Apparently, it's not illegal for Gays to Marry. Every State has said so...BUT...that doesn't mean a state can't pass a law which states specifically that marriage must be between a man and a woman. California HAD such a proposition (Prop 22) passed in the last election, but it's in "Legal Limbo" until some Constitutional issues are ironed out.

Remember the good ole days when there were only Ten Laws to worry about?

5. Once again, it's the Christian's fault that a bunch of whacked out Muslims flew jets into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. We're at war in TWO countries, remember? Of course, the Libs don't want us in Afghanistan either. Al Gore said it outright, calling 9/11 a "domestic incident" and wanting it investigated by the NYPD. I can only assume you agree with him. Am I wrong?



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 11:32 AM
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There's debate whether one can stray from God after having known Him. I think it's possible, after all, in the epistles there are warnings against it, but many may disagree. In either case, I have no desire (nor could imagine what would motivate me) to leave that relationship.


Could be, idk. Never had faith in anything before so I can't say for sure.




I don't know where it says that's a disqualifier. We're all sinners, so by that thinking, none of us could possibly be considered saved.


Came to that conclusion from reading about the man above. He doesn't seem to like sinner's a whole lot.




Doesn't have to be that way, and not for any of us here on earth to decide.


Your right, doesn't have to be that way. I could go against all logic and reasoning and current discoveries and turn my cheek in favor of unquestioning blind faith in hope's of saving myself. But again, came to my conclusion from reading about the man above and how he works.




You're welcome


Not sure why your saying that, you didn't create me. Nor did I ask to be created. I don't feel I owe thanks to any god that might've created all life. Should've asked me first if I'd enjoy living in a world with so much pain and suffering, my answer would've been how many crack pipe's have you been smoking.




If you think that's rough, try creating a person out of love only for them to slap you every opportunity they get. *ouch*


Yes, I agree. Ouch indeed, life sucks. However you bring someone into this world, it's your obligation and duty to set them right and bring them along the right path, especially when they stray. You don't punish them for the rest of their live's do you? That's a horrible lesson to teach.




You're right, He doesn't need, only wants.


And yet, if we don't he punish's us. Doesn't seem very fair to me. My belief's shouldn't judge what happen's to me so long as I lead a decent moral life. Which I have been thus far. Yet, through his own very clear statement's, I'm bound for hell untill I start worshipping him. Need or want?




He doesn't force people to love Him. If He did, would they truly be loving Him?


Force through fear. Love me or goto hell. Doesn't seem like there's much option there.




Woe is you, right?


Damn right woe is me. I never asked to be created. I never asked for him to throw at me the life I have. I never asked to witness so much pain and suffering while he does nothing at all to change it. When you see a parent being neglectfull, do you sit idly by and watch or do you intervene and do something about it? As of right now, with all the pain and suffering he allow's, god is a very very neglectfull parent. One of the worst in human history.




He did.


Really? Where? When? Haven't seen nor heard nor felt him.




How do you know? Besides, out of love He'd promised not to do that again.


It's in the good old bible, that's how I know. Sure he might've promised not to do that again, but he also contradicted himself. What's judgment day for? He's going to yet, do what he promised not to do again. Would you worship a liar?




The goal is to try our best.


From my understanding the ten commandment's were to be the most strictest of rules. Ten simple little rule's to follow, and yet most people if not all can even follow ten simple little rules. He never said hey, try your best to not kill, he clearly says THOU SHALT NOT KILL. Yet christian's said well those people are witch's so it's ok. Amongst other thing's.




He is doing a lot today. Arguably more than He ever has in the past.


Really? Name something. Have yet to see one miraculous act he's done and clearly done by him without question.




Still there.


He has trouble using it then. Can manifest all life on this planet yet can't make himself appear physically in the flesh with the snap of his fingers. For some reason he need's to impregnate a human woman in order to be physical. Wow... some awsome power. I can impregnate women too.




Not sure why this picture was necessary to draw.


Not sure why god created evil either and has failed miserably to squash it.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 11:49 AM
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God speaks peace, the bible speaks of peace. What are you missunderstanding?

People use their minds where it is not needed and look TOTALLY past the truth. The truth is the simplest thing ever, as it was there before ANYTHING was created. The truth is peace and everyone is looking past it because the attitude "dissagreeing makes you different"...bs, you dont even understand what you are dissagreeing with.

Just love and give peace and nothing else matters



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Produkt i could not agree with you more...you cant take a baby..toss a book at it and say here good luck..oh and by the way if you make a mistake I will burn you forever in Hell..thats why I am saying this cant be right..we are missing something here..a big huge piece of the puzzle..somewhere on along the line something got left out..

and as for the day of rest remark..you dont take a day off from raising your kids..come on..and you sure dont take a day off from running a planet full of people that you claim to love so much..no God is here..just not sure what he is up to..or the reasoning behind it..

if we could only grasp what it is that he is trying to do here, no i dont think we are all damned for what people of the past did..or what satan did..I dont think we are damned at all..
I think Christ came to save us all..gave His life for that..its easy to die for people that believe in you..follow you..so much more does the gift mean for those that do not..i dont remember once reading where Chirst asked anyone..do you believe in me..before he healed or helped someone..I dont think that mattered to Him..yes we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God..but what good is the sacrifice to those that are already saved..to those that already believe..and know God..Christs death opened the door for those who do not..who cannot for one reason or another..gave light to the whole world..just not light to those who already had it.



posted on Feb, 22 2006 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by Produkt
Could be, idk. Never had faith in anything before so I can't say for sure.


No worries, that's why we're here, to consider new possibilites I think.


Originally posted by Produkt
Came to that conclusion from reading about the man above. He doesn't seem to like sinner's a whole lot.


No, he doesn't like sin. There was a time when we were without it and loved us greatly because of it. Now, we have to do a bit of reaching out to re-establish that relationship.


Originally posted by Produkt
Your right, doesn't have to be that way. I could go against all logic and reasoning and current discoveries and turn my cheek in favor of unquestioning blind faith in hope's of saving myself. But again, came to my conclusion from reading about the man above and how he works.


I don't consider my faith "blind". I've heard of those who do and admire them for that. Must be nice to know the truth without having to go through a lot of trial and error to get there.


Originally posted by Produkt
Not sure why your saying that, you didn't create me. Nor did I ask to be created.


The next sentence here shows me you got the point though...


Originally posted by Produkt
I don't feel I owe thanks to any god that might've created all life. Should've asked me first if I'd enjoy living in a world with so much pain and suffering, my answer would've been how many crack pipe's have you been smoking.


You'd rather not exist than exist? To be nothing would make you happy? The reason the world is crap isn't God's fault.


Originally posted by Produkt
Yes, I agree. Ouch indeed, life sucks. However you bring someone into this world, it's your obligation and duty to set them right and bring them along the right path, especially when they stray.


He did try and is trying but will not do it without your consent, that's the way a relationship works. For example, can you force a person to love & marry you? If you could, would you want to?


Originally posted by Produkt
You don't punish them for the rest of their live's do you? That's a horrible lesson to teach.


I don't get to make the rules.


Originally posted by Produkt
And yet, if we don't he punish's us. Doesn't seem very fair to me. My belief's shouldn't judge what happen's to me so long as I lead a decent moral life. Which I have been thus far. Yet, through his own very clear statement's, I'm bound for hell untill I start worshipping him. Need or want?


Revelation 20:11 talks about a judgement, but knowing the number of mistakes we people typically make, it doesn't look like it'll be easy.


Originally posted by Produkt
Force through fear. Love me or goto hell. Doesn't seem like there's much option there.


Obviously fear does not work.
So yes, you have an option.


Originally posted by Produkt
Damn right woe is me. I never asked to be created. I never asked for him to throw at me the life I have. I never asked to witness so much pain and suffering while he does nothing at all to change it. When you see a parent being neglectfull, do you sit idly by and watch or do you intervene and do something about it? As of right now, with all the pain and suffering he allow's, god is a very very neglectfull parent. One of the worst in human history.


I see, so you want to be a robot with God controlling every movement and breath so that all we can do it right and perfect?


Originally posted by Produkt
Really? Where? When? Haven't seen nor heard nor felt him.


Yes, here, now, no probably not yet. Can't make guarentees either, that's up to you.


Originally posted by Produkt
It's in the good old bible, that's how I know. Sure he might've promised not to do that again, but he also contradicted himself. What's judgment day for? He's going to yet, do what he promised not to do again. Would you worship a liar?


He said He would not flood the earth. He has not since and will not according to Him. That's what we were talking about. I didn't say He promised everyone would live for all eternity.


Originally posted by Produkt
From my understanding the ten commandment's were to be the most strictest of rules. Ten simple little rule's to follow, and yet most people if not all can even follow ten simple little rules. He never said hey, try your best to not kill, he clearly says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.


I agree we should follow the law. He did not say there is no redemption for mistakes however. In fact, there's a great deal about forgiveness and turning away from sin to "go and sin no more". There's a whole Book there and should be taken into account from beginning to end.


Originally posted by Produkt
Yet christian's said well those people are witch's so it's ok. Amongst other thing's.


Hm?


Originally posted by Produkt
Really? Name something. Have yet to see one miraculous act he's done and clearly done by him without question.


Yes.


Originally posted by Produkt
He has trouble using it then. Can manifest all life on this planet yet can't make himself appear physically in the flesh with the snap of his fingers. For some reason he need's to impregnate a human woman in order to be physical. Wow... some awsome power. I can impregnate women too.


He decided to go through the human experience to say, "Yes Produkt, I DO know what you've gone through".


Originally posted by Produkt
Not sure why god created evil either and has failed miserably to squash it.


All in good time, be patient. Things may be purposeless and uncontrolled in our minds, does not mean it is that way.



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