Billy Meier called the New Nostradamus!?!?

This is pretty standard stuff... and pretty basic as well.

Yes. That's why it's so clear that since you have completely failed to properly analyze it, you must be Michael Horn or someone posting at his behest. Michael's often copied (by him) much touted analysis claims that a 4hz signal "became audible". That is not possible, since human hearing cannot detect a 4 hz signal and the original recording could not have captured a 4 hz signal.

Further, you claim that the 4hz signal could have been "modulated" by higher frequency signal. If you had any understanding of what you were discussing, you would realize that the carrier wave still would not have become detectable by the recording equipment or "audible" so as to be perceived by human hearing -- thus there was nothing for an oscilliscope to analyze. An oscilliscope cannot analyze something that is not present on a recording.

The sound analysis is, as I concluded, in accurate at best or, as I truly suspect, completely fictitious. No place affiliated with Electric Boat shipyards or the U.S. Navy (or any branch of the military) has ever been called the "Naval Undersea Sound Center". Michael has failed to address this (so you have, "jpl"). Explain it.

You and Michael (if you're not the same person despite a suspiciously similar inability to comprehend facts and logic) both like to claim that the skeptics are tackling little bits of the evidence, despite the "mountain of evidence". Quite clearly, those who have determined that Meier is a hoax have systematically and conclusively every morsel of that mountain to be hoaxed.

Interestingly, neither of you (although I'm still convinced you're only a single person -- perhaps the delusional Mr. Horn is also schizophrenic?) has address the metal sample. Again, failure to response is an adoptive admission by silence. I, therefore, believe it is safe to assume that Meier's metal was, in fact, correctly determined to have been a blend of molten solder with ground monazite crystal mixed in prior to solidification.

Centrist

[edit on 17-12-2005 by Centrist]

Okay, you nattering nabobs of negativism, what are we gonna do with youse guys anyway? I mean we've got the anonymous junior lawyer practically wetting his pants here, getting VERY upset, accusing me of "being in it for the money", not providing proof, etc. and another couple of guys chiming intrying to get a piece of the action, all equally unprepared to do battle.

Well, I did get a brief response regarding the sounds and, as he says, there are about 30 pages of sound analysis in that book (that I have and that YOU, according to your dilemma here, will NEVER have, read or comment on):

"First of all there are thirty pages of sound analysis in my book, Preliminary Report on the Meier Case, and ten to fifteen minutes devoted to it in the VHS Video Documentary.

Lee got in touch with Robert Shellman at the Navy sound facility in Groton, CN, and made the arrangements to have some testing done there, because they had the biggest sound bank in the world. The Naval Undersea Sound Center was the name on the letterhead of his correspondence then in 1980 After the testing there and Shellman's report back to Lee, Lee brought him out to Phoenix, to Jim Dilettoso's laboratory to set up similar testing for photographing for the Video Documentary.

Before that, however, Jim Dilittoso took me out to Malibu, to Michael Pinder. who had built up a latest state of the art sound studio on his home property, and had hired the best technicians to staff it. We spent a day there where we tried to raise the audio to the level at which Meier heard and recorded it at Ober-Sadelegg, where he had 4 tape recordeers all operating simultaneously.

He had two recorders with him, an Aiwa with a meter needle on it and a smaller one. His wife and 12 other witnesses were a quarter of a mile away with another identical Aiwa and another small recorder with them. The sound was so intense that the needles on the Aiwas remained in full distort the whole 20 minutes of those recordings. It was so intense from a hundred feet above Meier that he had to remove his coat and wrap it around his head to shield his ears some. The intensity of the sound made his brains resonate so that he got a splitting headache and went stone deaf for nearly a day. His eyes became so sore that he could barely open them, Villagers from a half mile away ran into the scene before the sound stopped, and we had it recorded in quad sound, or so we thought, until we discovered that the two cheaper recorders stopped recording only a couple of minutes into the high intensity sound. When they were checked to have them repaired the following day, the smaller recorders worked normally again. The copy on the Aiwas was in full distort and so we never heard the true sound as Meier did. It was impossible to raise the decibles in the sound studios to anything near what Meier experienced, but we did succeed in driving Pinder's neighbors outdoors looking for the sound.

We then went to Neil Diamond's sound studio, another of the latest state of the art facilities, where we did some more testing. As they did not want us filming in their studios, they introduced us to a known sound expert, one Nils Rognerud of the Rognerud Research and Development Company in Los Angeles and Steve Singer, a sound engineer and electronics systems designer.

They took us to the Excaliber Studios on Ventura Blvd. in Studio City, where we filmed the testing for the Movie CONTACT.

I do not have the correspondence used in setting up the testing in Groton, CT. Some of it might appear in some of the scenes filmed, but I do not remember. Jim Dilettoso was also in contact with them during that tine, but he is away and I have not heard from him in 6 months. I understood that the Naval Undersea Sound Center was the U.S. Navy Sound Bank.

INCONSISTENCIES?

The Pilatus Porter was a standard Swiss Army STOL (Short Takeoff And Landing) Reconnaissance Craft. It had eyebrow slats and Fowler, double extended flaps, and could indeed fly at 50 M.P.H. That area near Bettswil-Barretswi was on Swiss Army maneuvers that day and the Beamship was in their forward control area at the time of the event. Any observation would have been done at slow speed to be effective.

The Spectrum Analyzer work was done at Excaliber Studios in Studio City. It was Rognerud and Singer who discussed the suspicion of an undetermined suspected modulation on 4.16, about the same as Earth Resonance, which they were unable to clearly establish. A rotating device was suspected in theory but never established.

We were watching wave patterns on a viewing screen, a number of which we did not clearly hear, and many of them overlapped others and were difficult to distinguish with the human ear.

If the metal was faked as your critic says, then he is truely the smartest and only bright metallurgist in the country, because we took the specimen metal samples to all the country's best and smartest *metallurgists and it "fooled" them all, all but your critic, that is.

Why don't you invite your brilliant critic to make us just one of the Meier pictures that can pass the same tests, that he says he can so easily do. All the rest have failed. Maybe he just is the smartest????

Regards,

Wendelle"

Now this is just about the point where you guys are supposed to chime in with the personal attacks and slander against DeLittoso, Stevens, etc. But please wait for your cue...okay now, go!

So when someone who had seen the full Vogel video analysis was shown your bozo comments about "solder" he literally laughed so hard I thought he'd fall off his chair. "How could these guys even say that after watching the video?" he asked. Okay, so I paused for a moment cause I knew what would happen next, and suppressing my own laughter, I said to him, "They didn't watch it, they've never even seen it!" Man, he hit the deck, laughing his butt off. "Yeah, and I'm not ALLOWING them to see it so that they keep on making these stupid remarks." And then he said the same thing that I taunted CFI-West with, that people are gonna think that I made YOU guys up just to look good! Some days you just can't win for trying.

Oh boy, you guys are gonna make Randi, CFI-WEst and Shermer and all those clowns very happy when you join their ranks of debunked debunkers.

As for mein freund here, regarding getting some questions answered by Meier, why not do what people all over the world are already doing (no, it ISN'T asking these poor clowns for serious answers!) and ask Meier yourself (as well as read all the archived Q&A):

ttp://www.figu.org/cgi-local/forum/us/show.cgi?12/1871

And for my numbnut friend Tonnis (don't you guys have REAL names?), first of all IIG/CFI never challenged me, I challenged them and they FAILED, as in flopped, blew it, couldn't do it, took their marbles and went home. Secondly, in case it has escaped your notice, publishing precise, specific, exact information in books, documents, DVDs, etc. BEFORE the events occurred is pretty much PROOF of the "paranormal", wouldn't you say, genius, or is it something so easy that you do it all the time? If so you should get the million bucks.

One of the latest proofs was the ARSON, RIOTING, ETC. (specified by Meier, 1981, 1987) that occurred in PARIS (specified by Meier, 1981, 1987), perpetrated by the INHABITANTS (specified by Meier, 1981, 1987), of a SPECIFIC RELIGION, namely ISLAM (specified by Meier, 1987) already in books and the DVD The Meier Contacts (Available for only $29, shipping included! Act NOW and get a FREE, beautiful, miniature portrait of one of America's most beloved presidents, Ol' Honest Abe, tastefully impressed, in relief, on a small copper disk and suitable for framing or spending!)

Yes, Meier also foretold the U.S. wars with Iraq (specified by Meier, 1958, 1995), the increase in Islamic terrorism to follow (specified by Meier, 1995), the spread of Mad Cow Disease to other animals and humans (specified by Meier, 1995), the renewed concerns about chemical weapons (specified by Meier, 1995) and the avoidable accident at the nuclear power plant near Lyon, France (one of 436 on the planet!...and specified by Meier, 1995)...all of which occurred in that SPECIFIC sequence!

BTW, for the poor guy who's nailed his foot to the floor and won't talk to me anymore cause I don't play idiot games with demanding jokers...the last I looked, copyrighted information can be used in a court of law to establish authorship ("Copyright law protects the expression of facts and ideas, not the ideas and facts themselves.") Therefore, for the rest of you with functioning braincells and who take their blood pressure medication regularly, Meier has PROOF, as in PROOF, that he correctly foretold these...and numerous other SPECIFIC events and discoveries in his published documents (look up the legal definition of published yourselves).

Now, since no one here has yet bashed David Froning
(www.theyfly.com...) and you're gonna HAVE to in order to make your case that it's all a hoax, let me add this quote from him too, "Whatever Meier's source is on propulsion, it's very knowledgeable." Wow, can you imagine anyone, at any time in history, saying anything comparable about ANYTHING the Centrifuge guy here said or will ever say? And this chimp is trying to tell you that the Meier case is a hoax!!!!!

Oh yeah, while Bozo and the other clowns love to try to attack Marcel Vogel's credibility (doncha just love it when losers do things like that?) I guess it's only fair now to let them have a little more info that makes them look even more stupid with their conspiratorial bilge, and let them know that among the other *metallurgists who examined the remarkable, irreproducible metal alloy samples were Eidgenossische Materialprufungs of Zurich and Dr. Walter W. Walker in the U.S., who confirmed the unique properties - and behavior - of the metals. And this info has been in Stevens' book on the preliminary investigation report since 1982! What kind of know-it-all "researchers" are on this forum anyway that they never, ever even found out about...as well as all the supporting info on the photo analysis and the sound analysis!!!

And, to echo Wendelle above, why don't any of these geniuses make ONE photo that they will submit to the same testing that authenticated Meier's? The answer is simple and onvious, they're flatulent poseurs who used to get away with attacking anything that threatened their tiny little world view but who can't belly up to the bar when their pathetic bluffs are called.

Are ANY of you people paying attention? Do you get it now what a bunch of dopes these skeptics are and how uninformed they are? Skeptics are just like any other religious group.

It is absolutely ridiculus that Mr.Horn is even allowed to post on this board. It is PROVEN that Meier IS a FRAUD and Mr.Horn is just perpetuating the very same crime by soliciting money for his DVD about a known fraud artist.

So Mr Horn are you ever going to explain the fake dino pics of Meier's ??? Don't try claiming a photolab tech. swapped them because the fake pics were paraded by Meier as pics he took when he went time travelling with his alien fakes.

The only thing Mr Horn and Billy Meier deserve is a 8x10 jail cell .... which is where they both belong.

"Yes. That's why it's so clear that since you have completely failed to properly analyze it, you must be Michael Horn or someone posting at his behest. Michael's often copied (by him) much touted analysis claims that a 4hz signal "became audible". That is not possible, since human hearing cannot detect a 4 hz signal and the original recording could not have captured a 4 hz signal.

Further, you claim that the 4hz signal could have been "modulated" by higher frequency signal. If you had any understanding of what you were discussing, you would realize that the carrier wave still would not have become detectable by the recording equipment or "audible" so as to be perceived by human hearing -- thus there was nothing for an oscilliscope to analyze. An oscilliscope cannot analyze something that is not present on a recording. "


Hi again,

Nobody has to take my technical word for anything, and for that matter it might be better if we left the technical stuff alone...
I've been laughing so hard, my sides ache !!

To prove or disprove this, All anybody really has to do is put on almost any music CD and listen for drums. Any instance, where about 4 beats per second can be heard demonstrates the entire frequency modulation thing at these and other frequencies.

Even a child can hear or even record four taps of a finger per second.
Even in the oldest of recordings 78's or even wax cylinder types can and do reproduce 4 hz waves modulated with higher waves.
These include snaps of a finger, thumps on a drum or snare or "spoons" or
EVEN... a Beamship sound demonstration !!!!

Almost anything at "four beats per second", can be heard as such.
A car driving down the road, with it's tires going round 4 times per second. A stone caught in it's threads will produce a sound which we can hear and record, and play back.
The 4 hz component of the wave is clearly heard !!!

What is being confused here is that it's a PURE 4 hz sine wave with NO modulated frequencies, which is said to be not audible. The old "audible frequency range" of around 30 to 20,000 hz concept.
It's only the PURE sine wave frequency of 4 Hz, being outside this range... which is NOT audible.

Perhaps the P's included the 4 hz frequency thing in the demo, KNOWING someone would try to argue this point? IF so, they certainly don't think much of our collective intelligence levels... but all this is another story.

Kindest regards,
JP

[edit on 17-12-2005 by jpl]

I disagree. Mr. Horn has every right to post here. although his ludicrous assumption that someone at Universal would offer Billy a job is laughable at best. the hole just keeps on gettin deeper.
why do you keep ignoring me?

Maybe you guys should take a look at this link www.tjresearch.info...

I guess in some ways its rather frustrating. You realy should keep an open mind about it all.

Solarstone,

Thank you for thinking and doing some homework. Longhair, I still don't know what you feel was ignored. Let me know, I'll try to answer it tomorrow some time.

8Michael12,

I just want to say no matter who is right or who is wrong , I respect anyone willing to come to ATS and defend their position in person!

You are commended for that by me!

Originally posted by Zamboni
So Mr Horn are you ever going to explain the fake dino pics of Meier's ??? Don't try claiming a photolab tech. swapped them because the fake pics were paraded by Meier as pics he took when he went time travelling with his alien fakes.

The only thing Mr Horn and Billy Meier deserve is a 8x10 jail cell .... which is where they both belong.

Funny that you should mention jail. Billy Meier certainly saw the inside of one. Did Mr Horn failed to mention this?

Lot's of so called prophets have come and go in the human history, but none of them proved real. Why should Meier be any different? There is no point in debating this, unless it is discussed as a hoax.

Originally posted by masterp
Lot's of so called prophets have come and go in the human history, but none of them proved real. Why should Meier be any different? There is no point in debating this, unless it is discussed as a hoax.

Why do you have to be so ignorant?

no recording equipment COULD have recorded 4.16 hz, not even modern-day digital equipment available to the professional sound market. Even more evident of your blantant lie is that human hearing CANNOT detect 4 hz! That sound could not have become audible.

The statement that not even modern-day digital equipment can record a 4 hz signal is a false. Anyone with a little knowledge of Digital Signal Processing will confirm this. ( it's actually a very stupid statement.)

I would also like to point out that there is no absolute lower bound on the frequency the human auditory system can detect. This frequency depends on the loudness of the sound ( Fletcher-Munson curves ).

The statement that not even modern-day digital equipment can record a 4 hz signal is a false. Anyone with a little knowledge of Digital Signal Processing will confirm this. ( it's actually a very stupid statement.)

I would also like to point out that there is no absolute lower bound on the frequency the human auditory system can detect. This frequency depends on the loudness of the sound ( Fletcher-Munson curves ).

Oh please. Now this thread is just becoming filled with silly statements.

Back up you statement -- first, there are no microphones available to the pro-audio or general consumer market that will record a 4hz signal. A digital record, yes, could theoretically record such a signal, but find me the microphone that will pick it up.

Second, you need a lesson in human physiology as it pertains to our ability to hearing --

"The general range of hearing for young people is 20 Hz to 20 kHz." -- Acoustics. National Physical Laboratory (NPL), 2003.

Next time, check your facts. Also, do a little research on the fletcher munson curves. I have no idea why you decided to simply lies on this board, but here is an article on fletcher-munson curves. These are equal loudness curves used nowadays by those who design acoustic systems. They do not show that human hearing extends below 20 hz (although there are researchers who claims that those with exceptional hearing can hear down to about 15-16hz, that's not part of any fletcher munson curve).

So, smartypants, explain how 1) Meier's recorder recorded a 4 hz sound or 2) that 4hz sound became "audible" to those listening to the tape.

You can't, as you well know, because both things are impossible.

Why do you have to be so ignorant?

Perhaps you folks (and the number appears to be growing) who joined ATS to make only a single post in this forum could explain that. Your unwillingness to debate defies the reason for this forum's existence. No one is trying to stop you from believing, but the analysis of Meier's "evidence" has, over and over again, proven that Meier is a hoax. Instead of attacking the posters, post evidence or take your beliefs and enjoy them privately, because you are not adding anything to this discussion.




[edit on 18-12-2005 by Centrist]

A lot of things have been said on this forum pro and con regarding the authenticity of the Billy Meier UFO case in Switzerland. Often overlooked is the fact that, unlike any other similar controversy (if such even exists), the case is now going on its 64th year. There are claims of still ongoing contacts and other people photographing the Plejaren UFOs, some of which will be presented at the IUFOC in Laughlin, Nevada, in February 2006. In so far as this is the case, it has accomplished one of its stated objectives, i.e. to spread the UFO controversy and, hopefully, ultimately result in sufficient pressure on the governments of the world to reveal what is known about UFOs and extraterrestrials, to effectively end the cover-up.

One of the problems with this type of forum discussion is that it often generates more heat than light, something that I also have to take responsibility for as a participant, despite my own intention to simply inform. And I too often forget that convincing people is not the important thing. By stating the facts as best I know them I seek to prompt people to consider the case, using critical thinking and healthy, but not pathologically crippling, skepticism.

Contrary to any impressions that one must purchase anything to research the case, the free information easily found at www.theyfly.com, www.tjresearch.info and www.figu.org and the posting of information here on this forum regarding the facts, evidence, proof, etc. in the Meier case, should be sufficient for any thinking, interested persons to do their own research and arrive at their own conclusions. It also should be pointed out that questions regarding the sale of material related to the case are usually initiated not by me but by people who, for whatever reasons, futilely try to use this as a legitimate objection regarding the information and/or my motivations. Since I don’t go on forums to promote the products, people usually only find out about them by searching out and finding my website, or from people on forums like this who, through their bringing it up, inadvertently advertise them for me.

It also should be said that anyone seriously wanting to consider or debate the merits of the case would be wise to learn all they could about it through the above recommended websites and, should they want to know even more, avail themselves of whatever books, videos, etc. may be freely available through their local libraries, etc. As with any controversial subject, it helps to be educated in the full breadth and depth of the matter before forming too strong an opinion either way.

And understanding the fact that all participants in the case are human beings and, therefore, not perfect and subject to making mistakes, should help to eliminate unrealistic expectations that there will be no errors, discrepancies or problems for anyone involved, including those who choose to look into the matter. Likewise, realizing that none of us could live up to such unrealistic expectations, in our comparatively more mundane lives, would be both wise and compassionate. Add to this the aspect of plausible deniability as carefully explained here www.tjresearch.info... and one must consider that the whole matter is entirely complex and perhaps indicative of originating with far more intelligent beings, with immense consideration for our own limitations, than indicative of an enormous, long-lasting, virtually impenetrable and irreproducible hoax.

In addition to spreading the controversy, one of the underlying goals of this case has been to alert humanity to the extremely dangerous threat to our very survival caused primarily by manmade actions, governmental/military policies, false, power-hungry “leaders”, delusional religions, etc. In this way the intent of the case may also reflect some current concerns of various persons and parties of one political, philosophical or religious persuasion or another, although there is absolutely no affiliation with, nor implied endorsement of, any secular, political or religious party, platform or system of belief.

Lastly, I have not posted here under any false name or identity; allow the fact that there are other people who have reason to speak in defense of the case to rest on its, and their, own merits.

So, I leave this forum with all that I have had to offer and have time for, knowing that each person must be free to make up their own mind in this, and all other, matters.

So, smartypants, explain how 1) Meier's recorder recorded a 4 hz sound or 2) that 4hz sound became "audible" to those listening to the tape.

Here's my explaination :

1) The report says that the fequency spetrum of the audio signal was analysed and that they concluded that it must have been produced by a device spinning at high speed ( 249.6 U/min. or 4.16 rps.) It does not say that a 4 hz was recorded. In fact the very next sentence following your quote says

The high-speed device produced a sound that began at 520 Hz and increased in steps up to 990 Hz...

2) An sound in the frequency range of 520-990 Hz can easily become audible again.

Why do you have to be so ignorant?

So, I leave this forum with all that I have had to offer and have time for, knowing that each person must be free to make up their own mind in this, and all other, matters.

Michael -- perhaps it's better just to agree that we see things a different way. These forums are equally available for you to post your views on, as they are for me. As well, no study of this issue would be complete without you, and those who believe as you do, being given an equal opportunity to state your opinions, views, etc.

Since we have found some common ground on which we agree -- in that everyone should make their own study of the evidence and draw their own conclusions, I'll make this my final comment as well.

[edit on 18-12-2005 by Centrist]

What he's leaving? But I so enjoyed his posts. They were truely breathtaking in their ludicrous logic. Almost like watching Prez Bush orate.
I'm bummed. Never got the answers to my questions.

Thats what happens when anyone confronts him with *any* information he knows he cant stand against...he runs away.

I always find it funny that he accuses me and IIGWest of not submitting our photos, to his "scientists" to be analyzed. When he submits the Meier negatives to an independant group separate of the Meier case, I'll gladly submit mine.

Methods of Deception
montalk.net...

Some paths are more circuitous and painful than others. Knowing what
to watch for can save you lots of unnecessary trouble. This comes
down to matching enthusiasm with discernment and seeking out the
wisdom needed to navigate a clear path.

Here is a list of pitfalls I have encountered on my path to higher
understanding:

Accurate prophecies are no guarantee of positive intent. Deceptive
sources may make successful predictions solely to win blind
devotion, induce feelings of doom, or create self-fulfilling
prophecies. When positive sources give prophecies, they respect
freewill and present probabilities without macabre coloring or undue
fatalism.

That a body of material contains identifiable truths does not
necessarily make it valid. Deceptive sources may pile a heap of lies
upon an otherwise factual basis, while the sloppier cases simply
slap together fragments of existing material. In contrast, positive
material is always more than the sum of its parts and presents extra
information that is novel, practical, and verifiable.

Preoccupation with lower truths can distract from the pursuit of
higher truths. For instance, obsession with exposing political
corruption can distract from gaining necessary spiritual
empowerment, which is a popular tactic employed by hyperdimensional
entities and their human agents. Positive sources prioritize by
framing lower truths in their higher context.

Just because something contains convoluted trivia, complex jargon,
and voluminous pages, it does not necessarily contain profound
truths. The illusion of profundity sends people on a wild goose
chase for grand truths better found elsewhere. Positive sources are
complex only for the sake of accuracy and conciseness.
The alternative to a fallacious belief system may not always be a
better alternative. Rejecting something and seeking its diametric
opposite could simply be going from self-deception to self-
destruction. Positive sources do not subscribe to this mechanical
binary thinking and instead present balanced solutions that
transcend such false dichotomies.

Deceptive sources win allegiance by stroking the ego and playing
upon insecurities. We are all special and here for a reason, but
these dark forces diminish humility and cater to self-importance by
assigning one grandiose titles, messianic roles, and outlandish past
life histories. Positive sources help you achieve a humble
understanding of your place in the universe without exalting or
repressing who you truly are.

Gifts are not always given with sincerity. Alien abductees are
frequently given psychic powers and even healing abilities, but to
the aliens these are worthless trinkets they don't mind trading for
spiritual and biological ownership over the abductee. Gifts are only
sincere when given unconditionally and selflessly.
Being under attack is not always a sign of being on the right path.
Attacks can sometimes serve as false confirmation in order to cattle-
prod the paranoid into clutching more tightly onto their deceptive
belief system, such as devout Catholics receiving demonic attacks
because they are easily herded this way and fed upon. For those on
the right track, attacks are far more sophisticated; they seek to
undermine faith and pressure one into committing self-sabotage.

Astral deceivers often impersonate impressive characters such as
historical figures, ascended masters, archangels, Jesus, or aliens.
They do this in order to form a parasitical bond with those who
believe this deception, and they go to great lengths to build up
their characters. Material should always be evaluated on its
content, not its source, and deceptive sources will give cunningly
flawed or empty material regardless of their self-proclaimed
credentials.

Noble intentions can be diverted onto quixotic endeavors. Those with
good hearts can, due to a lack of knowledge or ungrounded idealism,
be led onto a primrose path demanding much time, energy, and
resources in order to keep them spinning their wheels thinking they
are making a difference when in the big picture their talents could
be better applied elsewhere. Discernment requires not letting
subjectivity and wishful thinking mask the warning signs that one is
pursuing an inefficient path.

Group consensus is a double edged sword. While conferment and
agreement between multiple individuals lowers the risk of personal
bias, if the entire group can be entrained into agreeing upon a
false idea, then any individual dissenting on the side of truth will
be rebuffed on the rationalization that an individual is far more
likely to be wrong than an entire group. Personal communion with
one's heart and mind should always take precedence over group
consensus because the truth is within.

Anything good can be shown in a bad light; anything bad can be shown
in a good light. By taking the best promises of a deceptive path and
comparing it to the worst risks of a productive path, the deceptive
path may falsely seem like the optimal choice. Only by examining the
totality of each option can one make an informed choice.

That a method or system "just works" and produces visible results is
no guarantee that the system is ultimately beneficial. What results
you see may be matched by greater amounts of detriment you cannot
see, which is especially true of systems that emphasize substituting
technology, ritual, or formula for spiritual practice, self-
determination, and discovery. The best one can do is consider the
benefits but hunt for the potential shortcomings of a system and
guard against them.

Deception seeks to emulate truth as closely as possible while
propagating just the opposite. It shares the superficial
characteristics of a positive source and hopes the target audience
does not look past the shallow mimicry. Ultimately, something always
tends to feel "off" about these sources despite surface appearances
indicating nothing out of the ordinary; once intuition alerts you,
it is the job of reason to help you zero in on the problem.

Its Probably best he left this thread anyhow as he didnt seem to be acomplishing much. Just lots of rhetoric and no answers to the real questions. But I did like reading his posts. But then I love fiction.