Why don’t you post a picture for us of them doing this, preferably with a time and rough location so we can try and figure out what you’re seeing.

I wont even try to say much about chemtrails, it doesnt do any good. Its like having a discussion about reincarnation with a christian, you will not change an inflexible mind.

In my area it is only being done in the fall/winter/spring except just before Katrina hit landfall I saw more than I have ever witnessed. It is a wierd deal too because I live in an area where you just dont see any airtraffic or hear it in the summer. Dead quiet all summer, then like clockwork they show up in the fall.

Oh well, no way to awaken people now days.

Yeah your right its silly to continue to discuss this nonsense with anyone that has worked in aviation, since they know its all a bunch of bunk. As far as your heavy air traffic only showing up at certain times of the year, well real toughie there…
It’s called scheduling. You think that airlines run the same schedules in summer as they do in the fall or the winter? Do you think that the amount of travel goes up a wee little bit starting before November for Thanksgiving and Christmas, but declines at certain times also? Do you think that airlines strive to run empty flights to waste gas, or that they try to run their flights as efficient and full as possible, thereby generating more revenue with each flight? Don’t you think that the number crunchers that have run the airlines for many years know the trends and know what flights to drop or add for each location according to the time of year and estimated travel to that area?

By way of example, lets say that there is a Delta airlines route from Tampa to Atlanta (and there is one), Now lets say that on average throughout the year they run one morning, one noon, and one evening flight back and forth from there (its their hub station for the south). Well what about in the spring, when all the spring break kids come from all around to Florida and the snowbirds head back up north, you think that maybe they increase the number of flights to accommodate that? What about in the fall when they can generate more through hauling cargo for the post office, or bringing in the snowbirds for the winter. Then during the actual winter and summer they drop back to the normal 3 flights a day.

Now multiply that by 10-15 airlines, and guess what, your air traffic just more then doubled during that season, and that includes the airliners traveling over your house to and from those destinations.


This is the only thing in your post I even moderately agree with, but its aimed at the wrong people.....

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Oh well, no way to awaken people now days.

Originally posted by defcon5
It’s called scheduling. You think that airlines run the same schedules in summer as they do in the fall or the winter? Do you think that the amount of travel goes up a wee little bit starting before November for Thanksgiving and Christmas, but declines at certain times also?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Oh well, no way to awaken people now days.

I am not talking about a decline, I am talking about a sudden and total absense of air traffic. I fully understand scheduling, please do not under estimate my knowledge of air traffic, aircraft because it is quite extensive. I do not feel like repeating myself and this is why this subject is something I dont have time to get into a runaround. One of the peak vacation times is in July and August, no airtraffic at those times. None. I come from a family of pilots and aviation enthusiests. I have 2 cousins that died in an aerobatic bipe (biplane) at another cousins birthday party. My father was a jumpmaster in the 82nd airborne. He went on to be sport parachutist, and I spent every weekend of my childhood at airports, airfields until he had chute failure and opened at 500 feet.

I know aircraft. I know contrails. Something changed in the late 1990's. Just because your pov on this is different than others does not make you right and others wrong.

Originally posted by japike
How close to an airport would you need to be to see such patterns as in the above photo?

you dont have to be anywhere near an airport to see them, because they are formed at high altitude. every pick i've seen looks like normal jet traffic along airways.

listen people, i am an air traffic controller. i can tell you for a fact that every picture i have seen on this thread is a normal contrail, and nothing else. they form at high altitude, and then sheer into large clouds depending on the velocity of the winds at said altitude. sometimes they dissipate quickly, sometimes they stay pretty well formed for hours, depending upon the winds, which usually increase exponentially the higher you go (every once in awhile you have calm wind conditions, even at high altitude). their formation also depends upon the temperature and moisture in the air. on cold days, you tend to see alot more than normal, and since there are alot of airways up there, especially over the eastern US (believe me, we spend the first couple of months in our training program just memorizing maps with all that info on them), you see alot of contrails intersecting. you even occassionally see a circle contrail because some poor bastard got put into a holding pattern for whatever reason.

and by the way, for whoever it was that said they are called victor routes, you were half right. there are victor routes and jet routes (in the US...everywhere else is ICAO, which is basically international rules, and tends to be different). victor routes are below 18,000ft or flight level 180 (fl180) and jet routes are above that. they are collectively referred to as airways.

i would assume that anok lives near a military restricted area (where they play around ...dogfight, refuel, etc) and what he was looking at the day he claims to have seen the same two continuously for two hours was some kind of military excercise. just a guess on that one though.

i will be happy to answer anybody's questions to the best of my ability in reference to contrails, or any other matter involving ATC.

actually, the more i think about anok's post, it probably was two guys running intercepts on each other. thats the kind of patterns they would be making. and they dont necessarily have to be in a restricted area or be military aircraft. we've got a couple of guys that come into our sectors quite frequently in civilian jet aircraft testing equipment for military contractors and that is exactly what they do...run intercepts back and forth on each other. it would look very much like the grid pattern anok describes.

Snafu, the aircraft I saw were not running intercepts.
One A/C was flying east/west while the other was running north/south.
They did not vear off this pattern at all in 2 hours.

I know A/C quite well, 6 years working on jets in the Navy. I am also an avid flight sim enthusiast. I see regular flight patterns everyday where I live, I can tell a normal contrail at a glance.

I understand the sceptisism, if I hadn't seen what I did I would be on your side.

And I agree a lot of what ppl are claiming are chemtrails ARE just regular contrails.

well, like i said shipmate, everything i have seen on this thread and the other one reference the same topic, are all normal contrails. if you can show me something that is not just another contrail, i will be more than happy to look at it objectively.

another possibility would be flight check aircraft. these guys go out and run the exact same routes back and forth for hours making sure that all the equipment is working properly for us to use a particular segment of an airway.

Snafu your name says it all.

This argument goes on and on, we will not resolve it. I woulf like to ask you a question though.

Something that cannot be argued.

How do you see a contrail at the horizon line?

LoneGunMan And Snafu

Could this grid pattern be a search and rescue pattern being practiced by the military or the Coast Guard? LoneGunMan do you live near the ocean or a military base?

Snafu I stand corrected, well partly anyway, about the Airways, though I was just going off my personal flight experience. Good point about them testing the airways, I have only ever seen those guys once, testing the approaches on the runways at the airport I was at, and never thought about that possibility. That is a good example though that there are many aspects, and occasionally simple answers to many of these conspiracy theories that most people don’t know about or even think about. Even I would have never thought about the possibility of them testing the radio signals.

Snafu your name says it all.

dont really know what you mean by that. my name is a jest to the federal govt i am an employee of....Situation Normal All Fouled Up (but you knew that, or you wouldnt have commented)....pretty much the way things are at any federal agency. the 7700 at the end is the transponder code or "squawk" that aircraft use to let ATC know they are in distress...it pops up on our radar scopes to alert us to an emergency.

This argument goes on and on, we will not resolve it. I woulf like to ask you a question though.

Something that cannot be argued.

How do you see a contrail at the horizon line?

sorry, but i dont really understand the question there. what do you mean by a contrail at the horizon line? could you elaborate?

Could this grid pattern be a search and rescue pattern being practiced by the military or the Coast Guard?

i doubt it, because most search and rescue ops are low level, way below the altitude stratem for contrails. they have to be low in order to spot the aircraft or boat in distress.

Its easy, a contrail has to be at at the very least about 28,000 ft altitude. What is the visibilty on a clear day?

You cannot see a contrail on the horizon line because it needs to be 28,000 ft up and this would make it over 250 miles away. We do not see that far, it is impossible and makes it so the contrail on the horizon would have to be at half that altitude to be seen with the human eye.

All I can say is you guys are really digging deep to come up with reasons for what I and others have witnessed.

I can't show you a picture because you cannot really tell from a picture. You really have to see it for yourself. And until you do then just pls at least keep an open mind. What have you to gain by debunking this?

I myself doubt the existance of a lot of things but I don't go around saying you're full of it for believing. An open mind is a smart mind. A closed mind breeds ignorance. The World is full of the unbelievable. Ppl used to think the World was flat you know, and the minority that didn't were outcast. But I'm sure you already knew that right?

Originally posted by ANOK
All I can say is you guys are really digging deep to come up with reasons for what I and others have witnessed.

I can't show you a picture because you cannot really tell from a picture. You really have to see it for yourself. And until you do then just pls at least keep an open mind. What have you to gain by debunking this?

I myself doubt the existance of a lot of things but I don't go around saying you're full of it for believing. An open mind is a smart mind. A closed mind breeds ignorance. The World is full of the unbelievable. Ppl used to think the World was flat you know, and the minority that didn't were outcast. But I'm sure you already knew that right?

as i said in the last post, i'm not trying to debunk anything. im just giving you my proffessional analysis of the data i've been given. i have a very open mind. personally, i believe that we arent the first civilization to be this advanced on this planet, but i cant offer any concrete proof of that. so i say that it is only MHO.

how can you say without a doubt that these things exist when you state quite clearly above that "you cannot really tell from a picture." so why post pictures at all then?

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, just dont post pictures of regular old contrails and call them "proof" of anything, except that the sky is full of aircraft.

if you do manage to come up with any kind of actual proof, i will be more than happy to look at it objectively.

Can anyone explain the photos of the planes showing the trails coming from something other than a Jet engine?

I first dismissed this thought but I have seen a few more pictures and it seems obvious non altered.

Also for the people in the aviation field would you bet your life on it? I mean are you 100% nothing could be going on whats so ever? I just find it hard to belive after seeing some chemtrail website that his a ton of members if that many people have an interest I would think it would have to be more to it. Anyway don't get me wrong I respect everyones thoughts on this. As far as I go I am clueless to it besides what I have saw. I have watched everyday and nothing of the like of my photo. Also those seem to be below 33k FT no?


Cheers!