Chemtrails / EM

I agree a lot of it is probably missinformation, no argument there.
I mean some people make wild claims about all sorts of things.
And yes it is a miltary operation, why would they use civilians?

Sounds like you're starting to bend a little though, good.

Originally posted by ANOK
And yes it is a miltary operation, why would they use civilians?

Just for the sake of argument, let’s just assume that there is a military “spry program.”

Considering how widespread the reports of “Chemtrails” are (worldwide, by some accounts), then this would have to be a fairly extensive operation.

How many planes would this take? Certainly more than 100. If all the reports of chemtrail sightings are true, then there would have to be at least a thousand of planes in operation daily.

Think about it; let’s just say for the sake of argument, that the average area of the sky that a person can observe (and note the presence of contrails in) is roughly 50 miles in diameter. That is an area of 7850 square miles. If, we assume that the average number of contrails observed during that time is 1, and that that average is evenly distributed across the 3,119,819 square miles of the continental U.S. that means that there would have to be around 400 aircraft in the air at any given time. Now, considering that planes can not fly continuously, would it be reasonable to assume that you would need at least four times this number to support your program (planes have to be rotated in and out of service for maintenance etc.) Five times would probably be more realistic, but I’ll go with four for now. In fact I will say let’s assume that your chemtrail fleet consists of 1,500 spray planes.

Now, each plane will require an air crew to fly it. And a ground grew to service it. Once again, let’s assume an air crew of 5 people and a ground grew of 10 people. That right there is 22,500 people.

Now if you know how the military operates you would know that for every asset like an airplane, air crew and ground grew, there are hundreds of other support personnel that are required as well. Let’s just say you have another 12,500 people in support roles.

Now all of the sudden your program has 35,000 people directly involved in it.

Finally you have to base these planes somewhere. For simple logistical efficiency you would need more than one base to operate across the U.S.

Where are these bases? Are the totally separate, or are they “hidden” among other active bases? If that is the case you have suddenly increased the number of people who need to be involved in your program.

(That is not even counting the civilian contractors that would be supplying the specialized spray equipment and the spray material, whatever that would be.)

Let’s not forget that many people also quit the service for various reasons. If this program has been going on for 10 years or so, the total number of people in on this would be much higher.

So would an estimate of 40,000 personnel either directly or indirectly involved in this “program” be reasonable?

Consider the fact that United airlines flies around 500 jets and has around 60,000 employees. Even if you factor out gate agents and ticketing, you still have a considerable number of people required to operate and fly a large fleet of aircraft.

At this point I would like to introduce you to “Roark’s Law of Secrets,” which states:

The probability of any secret remaining a secret is directly proportional to the inverse of the people who know it.

This law works thusly: if 1 person knows a secret, then that person has 100% chance of keeping that secret. However, if two people know the secret, the probability of that secret remaining a secret has just dropped to 50%. If more than 100 people know about it, then it can no longer be considered a secret, but rather it has moved into the realm of common knowledge.

Howard these spraw operations don't happen that often, it wouldn't take as much to hide it as you seem to think.
You're never gonna convince me it's not going on, so go ahead, keep waisting your time with your long drawn out boring de-bunking posts, I hope at least YOU are having fun. Just like your 9-11 de-bunking, a waist of your time on me.
I'm not going to keep arguing back an forth with you again, it's getting old.
Go de-bunk faries or something.

They don’t happen that often?

According to some of the other sites, like Chemtrail Central, and CTTUSA, they are going on practically nonstop.

Who is right? Them or you? What is the difference?


The fact is, the reason you don’t want to defend your position is that I will win the argument and you know it.

You have absolutely not proof that chemtrails exist.

Even if “they only spray one and a while,” you have no proof that they spray anything at all.

Even a small fleet of only 50 planes or so will require a large assortment of support people. Where are they?

How come no one has ever come forward about this?

Don’t these people know that they are spraying their own families?

You know you guys wonder why we get a little miffed.
When you get folks like the father and OFT, who act like they know all, and those that don't agree with them are stupid, what do you expect?

I never came to these chem discusions to prove anything to anybody.
All I want to do is discuss what I've witnessed with other interested people.
But these thread always just turn into stupid back and forth "you can't prove it" arguments and of course stupid me always gets suckered in.
You know there's a lot of things I can't prove to you, but it don't mean they're not true.
You all claim your "profeesional" knowledge of A/C proves you're the ones in the know. Well what about my "professional" knowledge of A/C? Is your knowledge different to mine? Maybe, but mine is enough for me to be sure what I witnessed was not normal A/C traffic in my area, and not normal contrails. I don't expect you to believe me. Like I said I don't really care if you do or not, your loss not mine.
I'm not a paranoid tin foil hat warer who thinks we are being poisoned or anything else like that. But I do believe there are experiments in weather control and climate control that have been going on now since at least the 50's.
Wilhelm Reich is the so called father of weather control and one of his ideas was to fill the sky with (i forget what off the top of my head) particles to control gloabl warming. He also worked on ways to spray chems in the sky to psycological control the enemy. Are they still doing these experiments?
You know they are allowed to experiment on a percentage of the population without theur knowledge right? I am first hand proof they use military members for experiments without their knowledge.
You see a program of spraying is not so far fetched, and we all know that the early German scientist experiments were continued as black ops by the U.S. and other allies up till today.
The more you learn about this stuff the more chemtrails become totaly plausable, and when you actualy see what some of here have it's hard to not be convinced.

Most ppl just don't watch the skies that much to notice. It's easy to just pass them off as normal contrails at a glance, but if you know A/C and your local normal flight patterns and you see something that don't fit, well do I need to say more?

I won't post pics cause it don't convince anyone who's mind is already made up (for them).

I don't ask anyone to believe me or other "chemies" as you call them. Just keep an open mind.

[edit on 28/10/2005 by ANOK]

anok, you have just proven your ignorance to me. i have tried to explain over and over that i am not interested in debunking anything, that i just want more info and evidence that might even remotely be real.

your childish tantrum has just proven your inability to have an adult discussion about anything.

oh, and furthermore...if you were really a navy veteren who worked on jets, you would have recognized my avatar as the naval air traffic rating badge. you didnt have a clue what it was. leads me to believe you are just some wannabe who wants to make up stories about himself so that his ideas seem more feasible.

the funny thing is, you almost had me too. after that last pic by gunman, i was searching all over the web for more like it, while waiting for fresh pics from you guys.

guess even the best of us get duped with ignorant stupidity every once in awhile.

im done here....get a life children.

edited to include anok's original remarks.

[edit on 28-10-2005 by snafu7700]

Anok i can picture you in the same pose as the statue in your avatar.
imo you have been sensible and friendly and nowhere near childish or any of the other words thrown at you.


What you really should ask yourself guys, is how do you know this is not happening somewhere? why are you sure?

without knowing anything about anything i would assume that they have experimented with this at one time or antother. would you say it was impossible for it to happen? i hope not.

so how can it be debunked. Whos to say experiments are not continuing.

Originally posted by snafu7700
anok, you have just proven your ignorance to me. i have tried to explain over and over that i am not interested in debunking anything, that i just want more info and evidence that might even remotely be real.

your childish tantrum has just proven your inability to have an adult discussion about anything.

oh, and furthermore...if you were really a navy veteren who worked on jets, you would have recognized my avatar as the naval air traffic rating badge. you didnt have a clue what it was. leads me to believe you are just some wannabe who wants to make up stories about himself so that his ideas seem more feasible.

the funny thing is, you almost had me too. after that last pic by gunman, i was searching all over the web for more like it, while waiting for fresh pics from you guys.

guess even the best of us get duped with ignorant stupidity every once in awhile.

im done here....get a life children.

edited to include anok's original remarks.

Errr excuse me! A wannabe? screw you dude (give me a warn MODS I don't care anymore in fact ban me if you want). See this for a start...



I am a gulf war one vet with gulf war illness, wannabe

And who the hell mentioned your avatar, what's that to do with anything?
How do you know I even looked at it, let alone didn't know what it was?
And because I was in the Nav what's makes you think I should know every rating badge of every rateing in the nav? I didn't know any air traffic controlers, why should I automaticaly know their rating badge? I was too busy lauching planes on a flight deck (USS Saratoga CV60 1989-1991, then "I" level in Sigonela Sicily 91-93, and then flight crew training school instructor Pensacola Fla 93-95, thankyou very much!) to pay attention to flight controlers uniforms. Jeez!
When I saw flight controlers they wore flight deck jerseys, no markings.
Wanna see my DD214? I'll scan it and send it to you if you wish.

As far as you not wanting to debunk, good for you, but my comments where not directed at JUST you. I was just talking generaly about these chem trail threads because they end up the same way everytime with people calling me ignorant or stupid. So I'm ranting oh well, it's been a bad week, in fact a bad few yrs. If it comes out when I'm writting here sry but it's gonna come out somewhere. No excuse I know, but you have no right to call me childish and ignorant. With YOUR last post you have shown YOUR ignorance with assumptions about me that have no basis in fact.
I am being as honest as I can on this forum, always have always will.
But it's getting old and boring and ppl wonder why the post numbers are going down.
These threads turn into nothing but you're wrong I'm right black and white.
You might have just broke the cammels back bro, not that you care, I got better things to do.

Originally posted by AdamJ
Anok i can picture you in the same pose as the statue in your avatar.
imo you have been sensible and friendly and nowhere near childish or any of the other words thrown at you.

Thank you AdamJ!

Wow what's up with ppl on ATS lately? I get nothing but greef off everybody it seems lately. Things go in one ear and come out all hot bothered from the other with no thinking process.
Seems no one wants to discus things anymore, they just want to WIN an argument whether they care if they're right or not.
The reason ppl don't post in these threads anymore is because they just get shot down everytime by the same group of boring professional debunkers.
Typical in society though aint it?
See this pertanant thread...
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Maybe the chemtrails have got to these ppl eh?

I used to enjoy visiting this site but now it just makes me angry.

Take care ANOK

ok, i will apologize for the navy comment, as you obviously were there.....in fact, we were in sig at the same time.

but you are entirely to tightly wound. how can you expect anybody to listen to anything you say when all you do is whine and moan that no one believes you? i ask for proof, and instead of trying to show me some, you go off ranting and raving about how everybody's trying to debunk your posts.

you take this crap way to personally, and your attitude is what is driving people away, not the material, IMHO.

ANOK, I hear ya bro the profesional debunkers had driven me from the bord for some time now, I just recently came back. I came here originally to discuss things with like-minded people. I am sure this is why this forum was started. It has changed though, I dant nessisarily want people in agreement, but this whole mess of keeping the argument in a perpetual circle is something the government does. I wish the mods would come to this conclusion and give people like Howard Roark, apc, FatherLukePuke, to name a few will help keep a thread going around to the point where you just get sick of going over the same things again and again until you quit in exsaperation.

Mods that type of discussion is not any fun.

snafu, from your answer to ANOK I can tell you have not had a chance to experience this type of nasty way Howard Roark goes about his debunking. Its like dealing with some type of souless computer program that was written to grive any feeling person nuts. The man doesnt have a spirit or soul. He is like a black hole when it comes to being a human. No offence, just an observation.

ANOK I have always respected your spirit. You are a passionate person with lots of soul, be proud of that.

Well I am sorry to see this thread breaking down to name calling and such, but I think it’s mainly some bent feelings from other threads that have lead to it more then anything that has happened in this one. I think that Snafu is to new to the site to understand some of what has happened in other threads and is taking the general statements as being more pointed at him then they are (no offence intended snafu ).

Originally posted by ANOK
I agree a lot of it is probably missinformation, no argument there.
I mean some people make wild claims about all sorts of things.
And yes it is a miltary operation, why would they use civilians?

Sounds like you're starting to bend a little though, good.

I am not really bending any, if you go back through some of the old threads, like OTS’s debunking Chemtrails thread, you will see that I have always held the same opinion. That opinion is not that this CANNOT happen, but that it is not happening with CIVILIAN aviation, and therefore not with the frequency that most people claim it is. That most chemtrail stuff is misidentification of naturally occurring atmospheric events effects on normal contrails. I cannot speak for what the government does with the military since I do not in fact know, nor have any proof, one way or the other.

So again I pose to you guys that if you want people to take this serious, the first step is to show that the trail that you have photographed did not come from a civil aviation source, but rather from a military source. The truth is, that do to the amount of projects on any one base, and the separation of the bases from each other that it would be possible for such a secret to exist within the military. Just look at this thread here we have two opposing people that where apparently stationed together and yet never knew each other. If we followed Howard’s logic, then everything that the military does would be an open book to the public and it’s obviously not. Howard failed to mention one thing in his post above, and that is if you have 40,000 soldiers that believe in their mission, believe that it is right, and are under non-discloser (I forget the military term for it) orders, then it is possible for a secret like this to exist. Again I doubt that it would be on a very large scale, but I cannot prove that either.




[edit on 10/28/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by AdamJ
What you really should ask yourself guys, is how do you know this is not happening somewhere? why are you sure?

No. It is not up to me to prove the negative, but it is up to the chemtrail proponents to provide the proof that they are real. So far, no proof has been provided that does not have a simpler, more logical explanation for it that is based in science and not on speculation.

AdamJ are you familiar with Sagan's Garage dwelling dragon?

without knowing anything about anything i would assume that they have experimented with this at one time or antother. would you say it was impossible for it to happen? i hope not.

so how can it be debunked. Whos to say experiments are not continuing.

No one is saying that weather control experiments are not taking place, I am sure that they are. No one is saying that scientists are not studying the effects of aviation on climate, they are, No one is saying that scientists are not studying contrails, how they form and how and why they persist, they are.

What I am saying is that the whole concept of some nefarious government plot to spray the U.S. with "chemtrails" is a hoax and a paranoid fantasy.

Contrails form from engine exhaust.

Under certain atmospheric conditions these contrails can persist for hours, and will often spread out into high level cirrus clouds.

This is related to the degree of ice supersaturation of the upper atmosphere, the presense of minute soot particles in the exhuast and the fact that one of the primary byproducts of hydrocarbon combustion is water.

In the years since this hoax first started, no one has ever come forth with any concrete proof that chemtrails exist.

Originally posted by snafu7700
ok, i will apologize for the navy comment, as you obviously were there.....in fact, we were in sig at the same time.

but you are entirely to tightly wound. how can you expect anybody to listen to anything you say when all you do is whine and moan that no one believes you? i ask for proof, and instead of trying to show me some, you go off ranting and raving about how everybody's trying to debunk your posts.

you take this crap way to personally, and your attitude is what is driving people away, not the material, IMHO.

I wasn't moaning that nobody believed me, like I keep saying what IS fustrating to me is peoples refusal to even have an open minded discusion about it.
I don't want to prove anything really to anyone, just discus the subject.
I CAN'T prove it you, how can I?
The only way I could do that is grab you by the hand and make you watch an operation in progress, but that is obviously impossible. I've only seen it for sure once a couple of yrs ago, and one other time I wasn't so sure about cause I couldn't stay and watch for long enough.

How can you say I'm tightly wound, I could be writing this with a big cheesy grin on my face as I puff my joint and sip my wine huh?

This forum used to be for discusion, now it's like a battle ground of I'm right your wrong, black and white no room for the maybe. We go round in circles of you can't prove it.

What attitude? I just give back what is thrown at me, and believe me there's a lot of throwing on ATS from certain ppl. I'm sorry you're getting caught up in this, but this is like the billionth chem thread and everyone ends up with the same few ppl bashing it out like a verbal boxing match.
I should know better and stay away from these threads, but someone posts about something I'm interested in and for some strange reason I am drawn to respond to them in a positive way. But then comes the usual crowd and the battle starts.
If people don't want to believe fine, I don't care, I have no desire to prove it to you. I Just get erked when certain ppl make snide smug "I know better" comments. And when you don't return and comment you get the "oh that ANOK guy aint come back, must mean he's full of it, we win again, smug, smug, pat ourselfs on the back".

As dificult as it will be I'm going to try to stay away from chem threads from now on.
I guess that means OTS and Howwie have won. Well good for you guys.
Another interesting subject becomes taboo because of the professional ATS debunkers.

BTW where were you in Sig? What did you think of it? I lived in Mota up the hill. Did you happen to see the band Rockin' Horse while you were there?
I was the bass player. We played the base club all the time and bars all over eastern Sicily. Cheesy band lol but it was fun. I had a great time there, kinda miss the Sicilian laid back "domani" attitude.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
ANOK I have always respected your spirit. You are a passionate person with lots of soul, be proud of that.

Thank you for that LoneGunMan!

I try to stay respectful, but sometimes...well you know.

Great comment about howwie btw, perfectly put. I really wonder why he and the others even come here, I guess they get their jollies derailing threads for some reason?? Maybe they don't get enough attention in real life or something?

Originally posted by ANOK

BTW where were you in Sig? What did you think of it? I lived in Mota up the hill. Did you happen to see the band Rockin' Horse while you were there?
I was the bass player. We played the base club all the time and bars all over eastern Sicily. Cheesy band lol but it was fun. I had a great time there, kinda miss the Sicilian laid back "domani" attitude.

were you the guys that always did "my sharona"?

i loved it over there. best time of my life, actually. i lived in motta too...cant remember the name of the street, but i do remember sweeping the volcanic ash like, 3 times a week...worked at operations, in the tower (AC).

yeah..."domani, domani" theyve got the right idea...lol

too bad we dont do reposa over here...be a lot more relaxed society i think


[edit on 29-10-2005 by snafu7700]

We must be proactive in our search for the answers. There is no doubt by me, that they are covertly spraying the air. We should look for proof in substance. This site has alot of good info:
www.carnicom.com...




It has been stated that different compounds have been found in ground samples found miles from each other in some kind of spider like synthetic substance. (Barium, Titanium, red blood cell type, etc.) There is now an public office for weather in the United States. This following google link is not links about outsiders claims on this subject, it is government sites talking about it.
www.google.com...

Four program spec
www.rense.com...

Ex-gov concerned

Jim Phelps DOE

I'm no expert, but when people come squandering in a discussion only to disinfo, it deters the little guys to ask questions too. We all breathe the same air do we not? What are all the little trails doing and maintaining there composure for a satellite pic? They couldn't all be contrails to portray the mosaic still sustained in these pics.
scroll down for sat pic





Again NOTE:chemtrails and scaler technology is intertwined. If we look farther into scaler we might find the answer.


[edit on 10-29-05 by pacman]

i can explain two of the four pictures posted, and at least 3/4 of the ones from that website. but as it's pretty damn obvious that no one here wants to hear any truth that might damage their theories, i'll leave it alone, and not post again (except in response to anok about sunny sig).

have fun guys.

Originally posted by snafu7700
were you the guys that always did "my sharona"?
i loved it over there. best time of my life, actually. i lived in motta too...cant remember the name of the street, but i do remember sweeping the volcanic ash like, 3 times a week...worked at operations, in the tower (AC).

yeah..."domani, domani" theyve got the right idea...lol

too bad we dont do reposa over here...be a lot more relaxed society i think

I dont think we did that song, but we did do a lot of other cheesy stuff...lol

Yeah I don't remember my address either, it was like one block off the main bus route up on the hill. Nice apartment, best I've in lived in actualy.
Made sooo much money over there selling ciggies and gas coupons to the locals...lol Remember the truck strike when cigs were selling for $10 a pack?!

I had a Sicilian GF, so lots of Sicilian friends to hook up She took me to the best restaurants. I think I miss the food the most...lol

I worked at AIMD, I was a jet mech.
I was in auxilery security to so I might have checked your ID at the gate, small world eh?

lol...yeah, it is a small world. i think youre probably right about the food....americans think they know italian food, but they dont have a clue!

it was definitely an experience to remember, i can tell you that. my last month there, me and my buddy, chad, rented a car and just drove all over sicily. had one helluva time.

a lot of people bitch and moan about how horrible it was over there, how boring, etc. but i'm sure you know, having had a sicilian GF, if you just take a little time to learn some of their culture and a little bit of their language, you can see and do things that no american tourist will ever see or do. how many americans do you think attended a real sicilian wedding at a real sicilian castle (motta castle)? that was a riot! and when they party and eat, they do it right! the guys that spent all their time in the e-club on nas2 really missed out.

my only regret is that i never made it up to rome. i had leave scheduled to do it, but then bosnia hit the fan, and they cancelled our leaves (we were short of qualified people as it was). kind of sucks to say i spent two years in sicily and never made it farther north than messina. but i can gauranty you i saw just about everything there was to see and experience in sicily!

lmao....i know this was long-winded, but havent had a chance to talk about it in awhile.

take care.

Hehe I hear ya...I never went to Rome either. I did go to the mainland once with a buddy just for bike ride (I had a Honda GW when I was there) but not too far inland...lol Did do a lot of traveling on the island though, every Sunday a bunch of us went riding, Americans and Italians, always stopping for a huge meal somewhere. I loved riding up the east coast, amazing scenery. Yeah I miss it!!

It's funny you're right a lot of the Americans there did bitch there was nothing to do, but I was more busy there doing stuff than here in the states.
They weren't happy cause they couldn't adjust to a diff culture, it's a shame, they missed so much.

You're right, go eat with Italians/Sicilians and it's at least a 2 hour affair and they don't stop talking while they eat. As the saying goes, they live to eat and we eat to live. And cheap I thought, for the price of burger and fries at McD's you could eat a decent restaurant meal with wine.

And the people are so helpful and friendly. I broke down in my VW Van on Mt. Etna once and I ended up being taken to get it fixed by some total strangers, only thing was I had to go taste their home made wine first...LOL
They fixed my van, got me drunk and didn't even charge me!

The diff between them and us? I think it's they don't get raised to compete with each other like we do. They don't feel the overwhelming desire to be the winner all the time. They just live life and enjoy it. They have a lot less than we do materialy but socialy they have far more IMHO.

Time for reposo lol...

[edit on 30/10/2005 by ANOK]