Skandi,

Nationalism..

That is scary, you do realise that is was the European nationalism that caused both world wars?
(and the Britts that were trying to be the worlds police man back then..)

For past 60 or so years Europeans have been told that nationalism is a bad and ugly thing, and that if Europeans should 'start to be nationalists again' we would yet again end up gassing some minority to a extinction..

And btw.. there is lots of skinheads in sweden, and they are organised.

Hence the problem, Uni.

They surpress nationalism. You get it beat down your throats national pride is an evil thing that only kills people. When people are told over and over again your history, your country are meaningless, it will blow back up in the ruling elites faces. Like its slowly doing now.

We have racists in America, organized ones. Skinheads everywhere. yet they do not pose any serious threat except to the poor unsuspecting minority or homosexual that might wander into thier path. As far as them taking over, its highly unlikely. They get heavily ridiculed on TV, get snubbed by society. Because over here, we still hold onto national pride. pride of the nation. pride int he way we love it. So on and so forth.

When that nationalism gets supressed, and people start burning our flag, start talking "down with america" and "kill America" people immideiatly see this as an attack on themselves, and get defensive and overly patriotic. They get ugly. Nationalism under fire. Look at what happened with 9/11.

The same problem in Europe. Europe is taught shame in who they are, that all thinmgs European have created only ugliness. They take two world wars and forget the 4000 previous years of European civilization as if it never existed or provided the world with any value.

They keep doing this, and the people are gonna get tired of hearing how bad it is to have pride in thier countries, and that nationalism will blow back up in the elites faces and become something ugly.

You dont surpress something because of past mistakes, you re examine it, and take a look at it, and foster it productively.

the japanese, even after world war 2, are very proud of japan, and pretty nationalistic. Been a good 50 years now and they havent gone off blowin anyone else. its because thier nationalism has been allowed to be freely expressed, but directed into something better: thier production capabilities and ingenius mastery of electronics and tech.

Going to the Euro has nothing to do with peace...or being part of a "family". It's very simple. With all of the different currencies, they were constantly losing out to the dollar. A plan was needed to stop this... Thus, the Euro was born. By pooling all these resources together under one currency, they were then able to easily compete with the dollar at it's own level...(and has risen something like 18% against the dollar since it happened?) I'm only against it, as I am an American on the dollar, hehe....

It actually was a rather silly move on Sweden's part, but it's a move that strengthens the dollars in my wallet, so I have a hard time being against them for it!

On the news, everybody is saying that this voting for no was/is/is going to be a bad thing for Sweden..

And what comes to the American dollar, well i have heard that it is at least 40% over rated..

Originally posted by Seekerof
Fulcrum....
The Swedes are not the only ones holding out from this. Those "fantasy dreams" that there will be a "one state Europe" is not going to happen. This is another "utopia dream" being fostered on the people by the elites. You don't see this?

Though, as par in European politics, this is just a non-binding referndum. There will be another referendum, then another till it passes and is binding!

Take for example: Look at Denmark and the Maastricht treaty.... They just kept throwing referendums at the danes till they finally cried uncle......!

Norway rejected the EU in 1994, which probably means they are due to another EU referendum before long.

On a side note: Looks like they are NOT interested in French leadership.....
The EU = the French
The U.N. = the French
The 'Napolean Bonaparte' complex = the French
The 'pimple' on the world = the French
The support of the 'Philistine' family = the French

Personally, and seriously.....the next step will be to alienate or otherwise coerce the populations into submission. They will try the money carrot & stick combo first, and if that doesn't work, other means will be employed.


regards
seekerof





[Edited on 15-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Some good points!

But 1. Sweden signed Maastricht to when EU has it's own currency Sweden will join at a appropriate time.
This means we did not vote for yes or no but for yes or later.

2. U.K and Denmark has not signed to join at any time at all.

3. We are not looking to create a United States of Europe.
We are all seperate countries, some are republic, some monarhys and they will stay so.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Say what you like, but i personally think that euro is the way of the future.

Hell even if everybody in europe used US $ (dollars..) so would i.. as using single currency makes things much easier..

Image if all 50+ American states used their own money.. wouldnt make any sense.

It would even be better if all nations of the planet earth used same 'money'.. but IMHO that 'money' shouldnt be US $..

Maybe it would/will be called as 'credit'..

btw, i hated it when i was in Italy (been there couple of times).. 1000 Liras was 3 FIM (Finnish 'marks') and now 5,94 FIM is 1 Euro.. and 1 Euro is good knows how many Liras.. but this isnt the point.. the point is that Italy is nowdays also using Euros.. making things very easy.. (one doesnt have to walk around with a calculator in his hand..)

I travelled alot in Europe, been a international transporter of corpses actually.
Imagine some trips I had to keep track of Swedish Crowns, Danish Crowns, German Marks, Tjeck Crowns, Slovak Crowns, Hungarian whatever they are called, Romanian, Bulgarian and greek money. It would not stop there because I took the boat to Italy and drove over Austria home.
€uro make life alot easier.

Yes, I was one of the 41% voting YES for €uro.

Originally posted by Fury
Good for them.
My respect for sweeden has gone way up.

nationalisim is teh rox0rs

One might think, but actually here it is the Commies, socialists and Enviromentalists that say no.

Originally posted by uNBaLaNCeD
If anyone had any sense at all,they would never allow someone to have complete control of their ecomonomy,if sweden accepts the euro it will mean they have to fall right into line behind the group that it did not help anyway,things will look great until everyone is in the system,then those who control the system will change it after everyone's in,it's not about convenience,it's about control.
The future doesn't exist yet,investing in the future is always a risk,it's good to stick with something that you KNOW works,anything else usually turns out to be too good to be true,like the euro probably will prove to be.
The vote isn't final anyway,the greedyboys are still going to make the final decision,and it will probably be to adopt the euro anyway.
Snatchawaytheirprosperity,thewack.

Well, actually, it is with a no that we would not have control, if we had voted yes we would have had our politicians and burocrats in the European Bank deceiding.

It is true that this kind of election in Sweden is merely a opinion to the politicians. But I really doubt they will join without the consent of the people, it has only happend ones, it was in early 60s when we went to rightside traffic. And I tell you, it was not popular.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Fulcrum, Tsk tsk.

One currency is one step of the NWO, and a MAJOR step.

I applaud Sweden for standing up. National soverignty and identity is the best route. Taking on one currency is the erosion of of nations, idenity, and gives more power and control to a smaller group of people.

One govornment, one currency, one world. No thanks, Fulcrum, if thats your wave of the future......

Everyone in Europe once had thier own currency, and thier economies did great. The bristish pound is worth more than the dollar. Taking on the Euro would depreciate thier own currency signifigantly.

Sweden has always been relatively Neutral, Im surprised they even joined the EU. But good for them, they are trying to hold out to the last minute.

Wealth and money are not worth sacrifcing the indenity and virtue of a nation. Sweden enjoys a high standard of living without the Euro. They dont need the one world govornment.

The US is comprised of different states, not countries. Theres a difference. We are one nation with one language and a common culture. Europe is taking many nations with thier own unique idenities and tring to throw them into one big faceless federation.

Sweden is only neutral concerning war, not trade and economy

Originally posted by FULCRUM
On the news, everybody is saying that this voting for no was/is/is going to be a bad thing for Sweden..

I really don't care what "everybody" says in Finland. Not even the EU's own financial and economical experts believes this to be a very bad thing for Sweden - quite the opposite actually, when considering the economic state of the EU.

No, I think this will be very, very good for us. We want to be in control of our own economy, and now we still are. I have no doubt though, that we will join the European Monetary Union eventually. Major powers are striving for this. But this was the people of our nation striking a blow at the establishment, and it's really a healthy sign.

Personally I would like to see us leave the EU entirely. It's Hitler's dream coming true, 50 years later, in a much more subtle and treacherous way.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
FFS!!!

It the pussy Swedes dont want the Euros, they may as well resign from the whole EU.

I for one will not ever again use SEK (SvEnska Kronor).

If i ever again visit Sweden (Sverige..) i will shove the Euros i have down their throats..

I for one dont really like EU, but the Euros are a good thing.

There are companies here that do take €uro!
On the rest of your comment I feel somewhat humiliated.

Magnus,

Thanks for the 'insider view' after all, you are from Sweden.

And like you said: Euros make the life easier. this is the only reason i support and happily use Euros.

But i really dont want a EU which is a 'union of states', i want it more to be like 'coalition of nations'.

Originally posted by Magnus

Originally posted by Fury
Good for them.
My respect for sweeden has gone way up.

nationalisim is teh rox0rs

One might think, but actually here it is the Commies, socialists and Enviromentalists that say no.

That is a lie of course. The votes cut through both political sympathies and social status. The Christian Democrats had a higher percentage of nay-sayers than the Social Democrats for example.

Feel free to lay into Fulcrum. I know the word you were looking for is Insulted but you should feel that way. You should in no way feel humiliated, though.
Fulcrum/Uninen likes to Insult entire cultures/ethnicities willy nilly and then comes back later to say he was "just kidding". I vote for a Viking beat down on his ass .

EyesOfTheFuture,

Personally i would like to see the JAS Gripen to fly, and not to fall of the sky.

Why are you being so offensive?

And so what if it was Hitlers dream? It still is a good dream.

And personally it doesnt bother me that Swedes dont want a part in it, hell you never want a part in anything.

Next time when the 'big show down' begins we (the Finns) just might let the Russians at trought the Lapland.. as we really dont need it.

[Edited on 15-9-2003 by FULCRUM]

Originally posted by FULCRUM
But the point still is Swedes rejecting Euro.

All you people from US, Skandi and Seekerof..
(whoom both i consider to be my ATS mates)

Consider this: you are going to Florida, Miami city.. with your US dollars.. then you go to a bar and try to buy a beer, but the bastard waitress doesnt want your money, as "Here in Florida we use Floridan dollars".. and those arent same money as US dollars.

Wake up, my intellectually disabled comrad; Florida to another U.S. is still U.S.
Whether you were to be in Bavaria or in Friesland, you were still in Germany and still used the duetch marc(Back when Germany was its own country).

Your analogy makes no jurisdictional sense at all.

As others have stated before in this thread, my hat is off to a nation that has enough national pride to maintain its own currency. What it now should do is withdraw from the EU in all aspects. Working together in economical cooperation is one thing, but losing one's own national identity and sovereignty is wholly another.

Originally posted by Fry2
Fulcrum/Uninen likes to Insult entire cultures/ethnicities willy nilly and then comes back later to say he was "just kidding". I vote for a Viking beat down on his ass .

Hehe. In Sweden we really don't pay much attention to what the finns say about us. Too much "Little-brother-mentality". They hate us whatever we do. Like in sports we always cheer for the finns (unless it's them against us) since they are our neighbours. But they always cheer on the opposing side. A finnish sport journalist wrote in one of Finlands major newspapers that the important thing for the finns isn't that Finland wins, but that Sweden doesn't. Lol, quite pathetic when you think about it.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Skandi,
Swedes have never stood up against anything.

After 1809 when Russian empire invaded and took over Finland, what was then the home country for Swedens army..

(90% Of 'Swedish' army personel were from Finland, the rest 10% was Swedish officers..)

The Swedes have not taken part in any war,
they even managet, to avoid the both world wars even as the Finland that was one of the major 'hot spots' of both ww:s and is Swedens border neighbor.

Sweden defended Finland against the Russians a long time.

90% of the Swedish Army was not Finnish, there was a Finn army but it was about 10% of Swedens total Army.

Sweden avoided both world wars, yes, but I doubt if they could have been out of it much longer then they did.
Did you read in Finnish history how many thousands of Swedes that fought for Finland in the Finn winterwar volunterely?

Sweden was one of the first countries to condemn the Al-Quida attacks on USA. Sweden was one of the first countries to condemn most countries testing nuclear weapons.

Sweden is one of the countries with most personel/capita in the UN peacekeeping forces. And it has been that way since the Kongo war.