Gods Dont Exist

Satyr:
Well you may believe what you want to believe, but in a previous post you called a young poster "idiotic" for believing in prophecy:

What a circular, rhetoric argument you make! That's about the most reaching, idiotic theory I've heard in a long time. Name a few of these "prophecies". (And learn how to spell "prophecies", too....or get a spell checker. Have you ever noticed that people who spell the worst seem to believe in this sh*t more than anyone?) Go ahead! Give us some of your best "prophecies", so we can tear them to shreds

I gave you an example as you asked, you did not wish to examine the details to see if it makes sense. This leads me to the conclusion that you do not really wish to truly look at the subject with an open mind. Perhaps you are the typical "skeptic" who finds something a web site that "tickles you fancy" and you just accept it as fact because it agrees with what you believe. As an example, the "pagan origins of Christianity" has been refuted many times. I have found on web pages advocating that theory statements about Buddhism which would be proven unture by accessing a Buddhist web site for 10 minutes.

Indeed you asked for examples of prophecy, you got one.

Oh, I'll look at it, but it's 3:05am right now, here. I'm not in the mood to read scripture at this moment. Every time I've spent days studying scripture (which I absolutely hate reading) and prophecies, I end up finding that it's always predisposed conclusions.

[Edited on 9-17-2003 by Satyr]

aren't both theists and atheists closed minded? they only believe what they want to believe. anyway.

i want to believe god exist but i just cant unless i have some proof. one theory that is always present in my mind is the fact that i'm afraid of dying. but if you believe in god you dont die you continue living. maybe the human brain couldnt understand dying and not living anymore. how could you ever not exist? to think that is is all useless and your basically already dead. so they made up god. to believe in an afterlife where you never die and you always continue living. and your brain could be at ease and live out your life till you die.

but then again how can you dissprove god? logically speaking, there would have to be soemthing we dont know or else we would know everything(that exist or other wise). everything that is real exists but we dont know every real thing. therefore you cannot use that to prove or dissprove god. also you dont believe there are some things that the human brain cannot comprehend? you must feel much smarter than i do. what they were trying to say is we know nothing compared to the amount that there is to know.


and then this. everything has to start somewhere and end somewhere. how can the universe end if it is infinite? how was the universe created? if big bang where did the singularity come from? if god where did god come from? it makes no sense. the human brain cannot fathom such things without their head exploding.

also there is some immature comments being stated, and people seem to think their better than other people. this doesnt sound like a christian to me. who areyou to judge him? why dont you look at yourself first. also he has made some immature comments because he feels that christians are inferior to him. why i'm not sure. i think the thought of knowing something that others dont gives him some sort of power.

its a never ending battle.

Originally posted by Satyr
I'm so very tired of reading scripture. I stopped a long time ago, and every time I get goaded into reading it again, I find that it's only more wishful and/or manipulative thinking. Why won't you summarize it, so I can judge whether I want to spend hours reading something I don't particularly want to waste my time on? Unless you can show me some spark of reasonable logic, I'll consider any bible "prophecy" as credible as scientology. I noticed your age isn't in your profile. Any reason for that? I like to know what age people are. Mainly because I find that many younger people are more gullible to religion and other far fetched beliefs.

[Edited on 9-17-2003 by Satyr]

You know Satire, now I'm going to say that you're an idiot. Young people are capable of being genius and pulling the wool straight over your eyes without you ever knowing it. Now look at some of the grand-parents that you are talking about who give their money and their brains away to hahaha, tammy fake baker and her prison buddy there. Think about what you are saying. And if you would have read my post up above instead of judging it after reading only one sentence, then you would have known what it was all about. HahahAH HAHAHAHA! You are so funny you make me laugh. Now slow down, and use your thinking cap, if you don't mind.

Originally posted by SamaraMorgueAnn
You know Satire, now I'm going to say that you're an idiot. Young people are capable of being genius and pulling the wool straight over your eyes without you ever knowing it. Now look at some of the grand-parents that you are talking about who give their money and their brains away to hahaha, tammy fake baker and her prison buddy there. Think about what you are saying. And if you would have read my post up above instead of judging it after reading only one sentence, then you would have known what it was all about. HahahAH HAHAHAHA! You are so funny you make me laugh. Now slow down, and use your thinking cap, if you don't mind.

That's not even an insult coming from you. Not after your comment, on which I've already pointed out previously.

Originally posted by SamaraMorgueAnn
Oh my you should read the bible and stop thinking so much.

Those old people you speak of, who are fools.....they were conditioned that way since childhood. My grandparents were as such. They were taught not to question god or religion. It's a sin to use rationality, for Christ sake! They were taught not to think! Who's not thinking?

Most geniuses don't believe in god. I've worked with some very high IQ PHD's, and the majority of very (the term "overly" could be used here) intelligent people I've met do not believe in a creator.

[Edited on 9-19-2003 by Satyr]

Some of the greatest geniuses believed in God.

michaelcaputo.tripod.com...

The first stars of night are just beginning to appear overhead - jewels scattered by a careless hand across a darkening sky. Ancient breezes blow, perfumed with jasmine and sandalwood. Looking towards the heavens in the still quiet of the evening, it is a time to reflect and ponder. Where have we come from and where are we going?

Does our destiny lie inexorably in the stars? (Some say that the blazing cauldrons on the furthermost edge of the universe are the eviscerated atoms of our own being.)

Satyr, you grandparents acknowledged the wisdom of the ages, which presents the existence of God as valid. That you wish to deny that wisdom is your business, but to label the cause of their conclusions is another story.

Fundamental to science is that nothing is impossible only improbable given certain conditions. As a result when a scientist tells you God does not exist, he is responding as an atheist not a scientist.


Any thoughts?

Jadfleiger, I shall look at those links when i get time, I just now looked at this tyhread for the first time in days, and the activity on here is surprising.

As far as the "fullfilled prophecy bit".....really now, be serious. That post is somehow proof of prophecy fullfilled, because someone claims to prove it?

The claims of someone predicting something that happened two thousand years ago are all relative on who wants to prove something years ago. The Oracles at delphi made prophecies they claimed came true as well. Like the Trojan War. And since the age of the bible is under heavy dispute, as well as its legitimacy....

Speaking of virgins and sex.....the bible seems to be more obssesed with these subects as well. In fact, the bible is OBSESSED with virginity. read it and weep. Its in there. But its an age old obsession. Before Christ Insanity reared its ugly head upon humanity, sex was a central issue, reproduction and birth, ect. Ancient Rome, greece, it was everywhere. because its a normal human activity the bible demonizes.

On to the jesus myth. It is heavily debated, but not without merit. The way the bible reports the roman census was BS. Roman records show no record of this type of census being reported.

Your sources leave out several other crucified saviors. Baldur of the Norsemen, for starters. Cerrunos of the Celts. The ancient sun god myth, of the sacrificed sun, the birth of the sun, ect.

Satrurnalia, the pagan holidat Christians ripped off as jesus Birthday, was the sacrifice of king Saturn for the welfare of the crops. Mithrias Birthday was December 25. Do you know about Mithrias? A most popular Persian god of light worshipped by roman legionaires. Mithrias was another god of the sun who sacrificed.

The Jesus myth is very Plausible, given the scanty and limited evidence of his existance. The bible is hardly a reliable source, seeing how much of its works were ripped off from surrounding cultures and mythos.

The great Flood. Ripped off forom the Babylonians. believed to be refering to the flooding of the danubian basin in southern Russia which drove the Indo European tribes out of the area. David and goliath. How many myths and legends about little people slaying giants?


Were in the 21st century. And we still have people fearful, wanting to placate ancient spooks and ghosts who live in the sky and threaten to punish humanity for things called sins.

Jag, I would suggest you do some serious research into mythology. Its a lost art. When the Christians were running thier whacked out rampage through Europe and subjugating the native people by force, they almost wiped out any hisotyr or record of the beliefs they once held. ZThankfully some of it survived. Christianity's Murder Victims wail from the grave.


I dont even need to read the myth of Osiris. Thats one I know by heart. Another ressurected god. One of many.

There is a simple explaination for all of this:

We are not all the same.

Yes, read it again!

We all do not have the same ability to perceive all existance around us.

If you are a 'hardcore realist' than it is likely that is what you are. No problem with that. But don't tell me what I see, hear, feel, believe or perceive.

Thanks.

And by the way, an equal number of Genuises in history did not believe in gods.

Ancient greece. Socrates was killed for it. Plata, Aristotle, all held the gods as simply poetic expressions of the human mind, but felt the belief in thier existance was silly, and all things had rational explainations.

And they were the founding minds of western civilization.

The romans were cynical of thier own gods as well, the intelligent ones.

In any way, it doesn't matter whether a genius believes in a God or not. None could and can still prove that no God exists.

And now science is leaning more and more to the concept of there being a God or at least spirituality.

Wow the story of Baldur (or Balder) sure does not sound exactly like Jesus to me:
fanzone50.com...

And would someone provide a link to indicate where the Celts actually wrote down what
they believed about Cerrunos.

I dont even need to read the myth of Osiris. Thats one I know by heart. Another
ressurected god. One of many.

Now let me see, Osiris was the god of the underworld - the place where dead Egyptians
went, the �mummy god�; not exactly a ressurection.

Mithra, Sungod of Persia

The first remaining record of a god named Mithra appears as a deity invoked in a treaty
dated 1400 BC; thereafter Mithra is one of several Indo-Iranian gods and is known for
giving orders, assembling people, and marshalling them perhaps with militaristic
overtones.
overtones. He also appears as one who represents the concept of fidelity, one of many
such
abstractions and personifications of virtues in the ancient East; Mithra was the "guardian
of the truth," "most dear to men," one "whose long arms seize the liar," who "injures no
one and is everyone's friend," one who was all-seeing and all-knowing, the sun was his
"eye" on the world. Mithra was responsible also for bringing rain, vegetation, health,
and was Lord of the Contract, Upholder of Truth, peaceful, benevolent, protector.

In Zoroastrianism, Mithra served as mediator between Ohrmazd and Ahriman, the good
and
bad gods of Zoroastrian dualism, being one of a group of seven lesser yazatas who served
the upper-level deities and was assigned some special escort duties, bringing demons to
hell, and bringing souls to Paradise.

Roman Mithraism was what was called a mystery religion, that is a religion in which the
beliefs are revealed only to initiates. Mithraism maintained strict secrecy about its
teachings and practices, revealing them only to initiates. As a result, reconstructing
the beliefs of the Mithraic devotees has posed an enormously intriguing challenge to
scholarly ingenuity. Owing to the cult's secrecy, today there is almost no literary
evidence about the beliefs of Mithraism. The few texts that do refer to the cult do not
come from Mithraic devotees, but from outsiders such as early Church fathers and
Platonic
philosophers. In short there is little in the way of literature to support what the
followers of Mithraism really believed and taught.

It was originally thought that Roman Mithraism was a development of Iranian Mithraism,
that there was a continuity of beliefs from the Iranian Mithra to the Roman Mithra, but
recent studies have indicated that Roman Mithraism had little in common with the Mithra
of Iran. Roman Mithra didn't appear at all interested in contract enforcement or
escorting demons into hell, and there was a Roman motif of Mithra slaying a bull that
just simply not present in Iranian Mithraism. There is simply no solid connection
between the two faiths except for the name of the central god, some terminology, and
astrological lore of the sort that was widely imported into the Roman Empire from
Babylon anyway. The typical Roman mithraeum was a small rectangular subterranean
chamber
(or cave), on the order of 75 feet by 30 feet with a vaulted ceiling. An aisle usually
ran lengthwise down the center of the temple, with a stone bench on either side two or
three feet high on which the cult's members would recline during their meetings; on
average a mithraeum could hold perhaps twenty to thirty people at a time. At the back
of the mithraeum at the end of the aisle was always found a representation, usually a
carved relief but sometimes a statue or painting of the central icon of Mithraism,
the "bull-slaying scene" in which the god of the cult, Mithras, accompanied by a dog,
a snake, a raven, and a scorpion, is shown in the act of killing a bull. The temples
were filled with an extremely elaborate iconography; carved reliefs, statues, and
paintings depicting a variety of enigmatic figures and scenes. This iconography is the
primary source of knowledge about Mithraic beliefs, but because there are no written
accounts of its meaning, the ideas being expressed have proven extraordinarily difficult
to decipher.

Mithraic scholars have noticed something about the bull-slaying scene; the various human,
animal, and other figures seem to comprise a star-map. The bull corresponds to Taurus,
the scorpion coincides with Scorpio, the dog to Canis Major, etc. It is theorized that
Mithra himself corresponds with Perseus and that Roman Mithraism was founded upon a
discovery in ancient astronomy which was closely linked to astrology. This discovery is
what we call the precession of the equinoxes. This precession results in the equinoxes
moving slowly backward along the zodiac, passing through one zodiacal constellation
every 2,160 years and through the entire zodiac every 25,920 years. For example today
the spring equinox is in the constellation of Pisces, but in a few hundred years it will
be moving into Aquarius (the so-called "dawning of the Age of Aquarius"). This
discovery
was made around 128 BC by the great Greek astronomer Hipparchus. Today we known
that
the precession of the equinoxes is caused by the wobble in the earth's rotation on its
axis; however, for Hipparchus it meant that the entire universe was moving in a way that
no one had ever been previously aware. Hipparchus held to the geocentric cosmology in
which the earth was believed to be immovable and center of the universe; the only way he
could explain the precession of the equinoxes was a movement of the entire cosmic
sphere.
In Hipparchus's time, astrological beliefs were pervasive in intellectual and religious
life; it was widely believed that the stars and planets were living gods and that the
movements of the planets and stars controlled all aspects of human existence. The study
of astrology was then considered to be a science and Hipparchus's discovery had
profound
theological implications in the Greco-Roman world. Some force had been detected which
was capable of shifting the cosmic sphere, perhaps a sign of the activity of a new god,
one so powerful that he could move the entire universe.

In the Greco-Roman period, the spring equinox was in the constellation of Aries the
Ram, Hipparchus's discovery of the precession made it clear that before the
Greco-Roman
period, the spring equinox was in Taurus the Bull. An obvious symbol of the precession
phenomenon would then be the death of a bull indicating the end of the "age of Taurus".
The theory is then that the "bull slaying" motif of Mithra was a symbol of the power
ascribed to Mithra, that Mithra was powerful enough to move the entire universe.

Considering the contentions presented for Mithra:
* "Mithra was born on December 25 and was considered a great traveling teacher and
master".
Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, fully grown.
There is another theory (by David Ulansey), that this motif of Mithra emerging from a
rock is a symbol for the cosmos as seen from the outside. In other words, Mithra is
emerging from the cosmos and this symbolism represents the idea that he is in some
sense greater than the cosmos since he is capable of moving the entire universe and
cannot be contained within the cosmic sphere.
* "He had 12 companions or disciples and performed miracles". The Iranian Mithras had
a
single companion (Varuna); the Roman Mithra had two helper/companions called
Cautes
and Cautopatres who were two tiny torch-bearing likenesses of himself.
* "He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again. His resurrection was
celebrated every year". There is no evidence of this in any the Mithraic studies
literature to Mithra being buried or even dying. Also if Mithra is outside the cosmos
turning the universe (as per Ulansey's theory), then he better not die.
* "Mithra was called 'the Good Shepherd', and was considered 'the Way, the Truth and
the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah' and as identified with both the
Lion and the Lamb". The lion was regarded in Roman Mithraism as Mithra's "totem"
animal (Athena's animal was the owl and Artemis' animal was the deer), but the lamb
was never associated with Mithra. There is no evidence that Mithra was ever referred
by any of the titles (none mentioned in the works of Mithraic scholars), but here are
generic titles (i, e., the way) that would be applicable to any deity.
* "His sacred day was Sunday, 'the Lord's Day'. Mithra had his principal festival on a
day which is contended to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected." The
Iranian Mithra had a few special celebrations, a festival on October 8, another on
September 12-16, and on October 12-16. There was also a festival for each season.
It is correct that Sunday was the sacred day for Roman Mithraism. Since there is no
evidence of Mithra dying, then there is no evidence of festival where Mithra is
resurrected.
* "As one of the celebrations of the religion, the followers of Mithra had a communal
meal similar to the Eucharist or 'Lord's Supper'". There is ample evidence that the
followers of Mithra had communal meals which were probably of the sort that was
practiced by groups in the Roman world, from religious groups to funereal societies.
It could be said that having communal meals is a common trait of all humans.

Originally posted by Toltec
Satyr, you grandparents acknowledged the wisdom of the ages, which presents the existence of God as valid. That you wish to deny that wisdom is your business, but to label the cause of their conclusions is another story.

Fundamental to science is that nothing is impossible only improbable given certain conditions. As a result when a scientist tells you God does not exist, he is responding as an atheist not a scientist.


Any thoughts?

Why yes! The "wisdom of the ages" is almost always proven wrong and later even thought to be quite ridiculous. IMO, this is another of those "wisdoms". I agree with your second statement. I don't deny that there's a possibility of a creator, but I seriously doubt it, since the only real evidence is a book, most of which is probably fiction. But, mixed with truth, it becomes very difficult for some to distinguish the difference. You have to remember, people that were even less evolved and/or educated than those who thought the world was flat and the moon was made of blue cheese were the ones who wrote this book they call the bible. That doesn't hold much merit for me at all. Frankly, it holds much less merit.

Satyr what are you talking about

I don't deny that there's a possibility of a creator, but I seriously doubt it, since the only real evidence is a book, most of which is probably fiction. But, mixed with truth, it becomes very difficult for some to distinguish the difference.

Not sure what planet your from but on earth the attached could be called the short list as it really only covers the current list of faiths.

religions.hypermart.net...

the thing about the grandparents. grandparents are older and realise that they are going to die and cannot cope with this idea. therefore it is easiest for them to start believing in god again because they dont wanna die and if they believe in god they wont.

Originally posted by Toltec
Satyr what are you talking about

Maybe the wrong wording there, but you should get the general meaning. These "faiths" are only faiths, based on practically nothing, but a wish to feel connected to something divine and/or powerful....or a need to feel protected. Most do have their book that they all claim to follow as the written law of their creator, if indeed they are monotheists.

[Edited on 9-20-2003 by Satyr]

The answer to the question "can a deity lift a rock bigger than it is" is a very simple one:

infinity + infinity = undefined.

The God, as we christians know it, is infinite. So, he can make an infinite rock, but the 'lifting' of it can not be defined. What's 'lifting' something infinite ? it can not be lifted, since it is the same in every direction.

For other types of gods that are finite, the question is easily answered, too: oh yes they can make a rock that they can not lift. Since they are finite, there is a limit to them.

Actually, these type of questions are the analogous of the theory of limits in mathematics. For those not familiar, the algebraic operations +, -, *, / etc can not be defined (and are not meaningful) between infinites. One can not say infinite + infinite = infinite, because infinite is not somewhere, it is everywhere.

Satyr pardon my sense of humor but what is the title of this thread??

Again, one cannot trade thousands of years of history for an idea which by the way, is not even the result of scientific inquiry (as hard as some atheist try to claim
that is true it�s hardly worth looking at twice).

Atheism is a response to cultural oppression brought about by inappropriate social interpretations of the dictates afforded by prophets.

Simply stated, those so designated in the past as Prophets of God can be defined from the context of having been the result of punctuated equilibrium.


Any thoughts?

but its history. you werent there, you didnt see what happend for yourself. history is someones view of waht happened in the past is it not? how can you put all your faith into something you arent even sure of and if you can put your faith into something someone tells you my goodness.