Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by thematrix
The people are said not to be allowed to leave the camp for any reason for at least 5 months.
What is not being allowed to leave a location in the middle of nowhere for 5 months called then if it isn't detention or detainment?

I don't think that was said. They can leave, but cannot come back was what I understood. Now given the location and the total lack of any personal property this may be more than a trivial exersize. But if a relative calls me from the camp based on what I understood from the intial post I could go and pick them up. But they cannot return.

Right. I want to make this clear (according to what the host said). They can leave. They can't come back. If they have family/friends that will put them up, the host said they could leave to go stay with some one...but they can't come back.

Who knows...maybe FEMA will taking them on buses some times some where. It's 25 miles to the nearest "large town" if they want to go shopping. It's about 70-80 miles to Oklahoma City which would be the closest "shopping mall".

Thanks for clarifying that. I was under the impression they couldn't leave at all.

Lets hope alot of these people have family elsewhere in the US that will take them in.

And yeah Valhall, my comment about the scavengers is the Mainstream press. I'd say milk them for as much as you can with everything you can and turn the money over to charity.

They are portraying survivors of Katrina as monsters, loosers and vermin.

[edit on 6/9/05 by thematrix]

I have another possible explanation for the way this is being handled, especially the "if you leave you can't come back" policy. Perhaps FEMA is worried that the refugees will get used to living in these camps at the expense of the state and will become financial and logistical burdens indefinitely, so FEMA is ensuring that life in the camps is as unbearable as possible whilst still within the limits of public acceptability. Then, when people can't stand the isolation, the lack of entertainment (TV, etc), the lack of milk for Pete's sake, and especially the lack of independence or opportunity to find work, they will start to leave of their own accord. This then absolves the Feds of any responsibility since they, on the surface, provided shelter and food, the rules were made clear, yet the refugees still left of their own free will.

The Detainment Camp theory seems to be somewhat in line with some popular conspiracy theories, many of which I myself am a proponent, but I think we may need to call out Uncle Occam with his shaving kit for this one, at least this time. Have to wait and see I guess...

[edit on 2005-9-6 by wecomeinpeace]

Val

Is the area with the cabins enclosed by a fence or otherwise? Or is it possible to just stroll away from the cabin for a walk through the hills?

Apparently you have been in touch with your church officials, correct? Maybe they can offer some insight.

What is/are the closest major highway(s) into this area from LA? I'm just wondering if someone could intercept the convoy and mingle with the evacuees along the way at a rest area or similar. Get a feel for the type of people being bussed in.

As far as the statements "you can leave but you can't come back", you should try to get your hands on any hardcopy documents stating as much.

It's a very interesting scenario. It could all add up to nothing, but there are some parts of this that I'd like to hear more about.

Keep us posted.

Well first of all I'd like to give thanks to Valhall. That was one of the most excellent stories I've ever seen, and I'm glad you took the time to report it. I'm also thankful that they're people like who're willing to do so much for disaster victims.

But on the other hand I find this story disturbing, very very disturbing. Something is definatly wrong here, I have to admit I've never heard of anything quite like this. This seems almost inhumane, even considering the circumstances. However I have to ask, why on earth would they do such a thing. Nearest I can tell it seems a bit controllative, depsite the fact that these aren't very happy people. I have to say, I smell a conspiracy, but even this one puzzles me to no end.

Church official, yes. My father is a deacon of the church. Springer will contact the preacher today to follow up after my visit and see what he has been told about access.

As far as the route - I-35 up to the Highway 77 - Turner Falls/Davis, Oklahoma exit.

The camp is approximately 160 acres. Treat it as a circle for all intents and purposes. 2/3 of that circle is fenced, the back 1/3 is closed off by mountains. If you decide to leave the camp over the mountains you would be hiking through fairly rugged country. But if they find their way to Devil's Bathtub (it's up in the mountains and a favorite "trek" for the teenagers who go to summer camp), they could follow the creek bed and end up finding their way to the interstate. That would be quite a trek, especially if you had kiddos with you.

Fred,

We have been told that the refugees coming to this camp are coming straight from some where in Louisiana.

Second issue - i'd damned sure hope they aren't going to make these people pay for personal items when we were told yesterday there has been so much materials donated by the members of churches of Oklahoma that FEMA has had to rent two warehouses, one in Ardmore, Oklahoma, and one in Davis, Oklahoma to house the stuff.

I'm a speechless.
This Oklahoma place is in the United States of America isn't it?

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I'm a speechless.
This Oklahoma place is in the United States of America isn't it?

I'm uhh... gonna have to call BASE and check that one uhh out.

uhh.

*drags knuckles*

Follow up information to the original post. Information I believe needs to be included.

First about the church cabins. The church cabins are used for one or two weeks in the summer by the church that owns them. There's usually a one-week pre-teen camp in June, and then the youth camp (high school kids) runs July until right before school starts. Each church usually takes their youth group for one week. Larger churches may have so many youth in their church they have to go multiple weeks. In order to defray the cost of maintaining the facility through-out the year, churches also rent their cabins to other churches who can't afford to build and maintain a permanent cabin. The rental costs differ from cabin to cabin and church to church. But probably average out to around $1000/week...just to give you an idea.

The churches who own these cabins are NOT taking rent for them from FEMA. So that needs to be made clear. I have no idea if the Southern Baptist convention (which owns the overall facility) is charging some payment for the use or not. But the individual churches are not.

When the host told us that they had leased the facilities "lock, stock and barrel" he stated that they (being FEMA/OHP) would be taking over all utility payments and had hired their own carpenter, electrician, and plumbing contractors who would be taking care of all maintenance issues and facilities up-keep during the 5 months.

This is outragous!!!! I am emailing this story to everyone I know. I am tempted to email this link to the KCStar if it is ok with you val. This is wrong on so many levels!!!!!! These poor people have been through enough. They are taking away all of their freedoms. This is unAmerican and should not be allowed. I understand the whole riot thing, but no one is allowed to take away another persons freedoms when they have commited no crime. EVER. If they shuv thousands of people together and take away all their freedoms, you will have a riot. That is all there is to it.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
They are taking away all of their freedoms. This is unAmerican and should not be allowed.

You did read the inital post right and the followon discussion right? These people can leave anytime.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
This is outragous!!!! I am emailing this story to everyone I know. I am tempted to email this link to the KCStar if it is ok with you val. This is wrong on so many levels!!!!!! These poor people have been through enough. They are taking away all of their freedoms. This is unAmerican and should not be allowed. I understand the whole riot thing, but no one is allowed to take away another persons freedoms when they have commited no crime. EVER. If they shuv thousands of people together and take away all their freedoms, you will have a riot. That is all there is to it.

And there's my concern. Their claims of "riot" are self-fulfilling prophecies because of the way they are going into this, because of the way they are looking at these people. The day this riot breaks out we'll get all the satellite trucks in the Arbuckle Mountains and FEMA heads and National Guard talking about the bad people who turned on their fellow man. When in fact it will be because they went ape-# from isolation and lack of stimulation and being placed in a blackmail situation of the only way they can get help is to stay in this encampment.

Why wouldn't I want people to hear this. If this gets out early enough then we'll get a sound bit from FEMA stating these are outrageous claims (and then hopefully behind the scenes they'll have to change things to make that statement true)...I don't care, as long as they change the situation for the better! My measure at this point is the children. If they are enrolled in the nearest public school in short order, I'll feel better about this.

Yeah leave and not come back... Ummm how exactly are they supposed to be integrated back into society and rebuild their lives if they don't have the the option of a place to stay while they look for work or permanent homes. I don't think there are going to be many options available to anyone in the hills of Oklahoma.

This is a way to keep people dependent on the "system" even those willing to get out are now forced to be on the system until FEMA decides otherwise.

I think it's very wrong to treat all the victims of Katrina and namely the economically poor people as criminals. This camp mentality is setting itself up for exactly that. This is very sad.

Please do not get me wrong here. The camp as described is not something I would want to place my family in for any length of time. But:

1) They can leave if they want.
2) I would chose this over say an outside tent city or something else
3) The security seems a bit overkill and Valhalls point above is well taken.
4) Yes they do need to rebuild thier lives, but it will take time if they want to go back, and they will need time to figure out thier next step. Any relocation camp anywhere would face this same problem

I think the key as Valhall pointed out is the children. I would have never thought of that angle.

Valhall how many kids could the local district resonably absorb without dramatical effecting student teacher ratios or overcrowding the classrooms????

[edit on 9/6/05 by FredT]

and there you have hit the nail on the head Val. OF COURSE there will be riots if they are 'looked after' by uniforms, guns and no compassion control systems rather than people like yourself who actually want to help. same as people will eventually loot when left without food or water.

i think for now all we can do is hold our breath and watch very closely what happens in this camp, because im wondering a lot of 'what ifs' at the moment... like what if val and her family want to go and just 'be there' to listen to the people and hear their stories and see if there is any way they can be of assistance to the people as they are on the 'outside'. i know if i were in this situation i would surely appreciate that type of contact. if val gets refused entry for simply caring enough to want to help, does that mean that they are prisoners (but real prisoners get visiting rights) even though they are 'free' to leave??

Major Update:

Springer just spoke with the preacher of our church. This is what he has been told. FEMA has stated until they get these people "in the system", which means on welfare/medicaid, unemployment, etc. and until they have worked through the health issues (the preacher was told there are three outbreaks of dysentary in the group of people coming to this camp) no one will be able to come in the camp and no one will be able to leave. Our preacher had had an offer from one man to come in and wire our cabin with satellite so that it could have TV reception. FEMA told him he could not come in due to health concerns.

The preacher stated that when the southern Baptist convention "donated" (I'm assuming that means they are taking no monies) the camp to FEMA for this purpose they had to sign over complete control. The preacher said we have no say in how things go from that point on. FEMA then "hired" (I guess) the OHP for "security purposes".

The preacher also had asked about the children and he was told that once the health concerns were under control the children would be attending school. But it his understanding this school will be inside the camp.

All of this makes sense to me and Springer. But I do question why taking sick people into a wilderness setting, in a confined area with 5000 people, is deemed a more appropriate action than taking them to hospitals. The camp is at least a 30 minute drive to the closest adequate hospital. The question becomes - how long will it take to get the health issues under control? Maybe FredT or some one can address that question.

A man in this area who owns a machine shop has already informed the preacher that if anybody in the camp has machining capabilities, he has two houses he owns available for them to move into and jobs for them.

CORRECTION: There are RUMORS of three dysentary outbreaks. The reason given for the lock-down is so they can figure out who is sick and who is not. That makes sense.

[edit on 9-6-2005 by Valhall]

[edit on 9-6-2005 by Valhall]

Originally posted by cyberdude78


But on the other hand I find this story disturbing, very very disturbing. Something is definatly wrong here, I have to admit I've never heard of anything quite like this. This seems almost inhumane, even considering the circumstances. However I have to ask, why on earth would they do such a thing. Nearest I can tell it seems a bit controllative, depsite the fact that these aren't very happy people. I have to say, I smell a conspiracy, but even this one puzzles me to no end.

then you might want to backtrack to Page 2 in this thread,
see the reply from TheShroudOfMemphis, TheShroud grasps the larger plots being played out on the displaced poverty-class from New Orleans.

...........
take note, the group of forced-evacuation people are being called
Refugees...this subtile title defines the group rescued by the Feds,
at the belated request of the Gov. & Mayor, as being dispossessed of
any & all material possessions or resources and property <-

as more internet info gets researched and published...we are getting
some clues & hints that this New Orleans flooding & forced evacuation
was 'helped to happen'...as the Gov't and Developers and Investors
desired the lowland areas which were populated by the perpetual-poverty-class of New Orleans.
The Gov. & Mayor, seen thru the 'price' of the Feds rescue & evacuation
Plan...there was probably lots of negotiating, but the Gov & Mayor
had to finally relent...for the sake of preserving lives by essentially giving
up the ghetto residents tenuious 'property rights' & right-to-sue, etc

ultimately, the refugee class, would be sent to 'Displaced Person Camps'
as the criminal elements among those evacuated and sent to diverse cities...were 'sifted out' from the temporary shelter system by the local
authorities,...which left only the less volitile people, eligible to be transferred to the longer-term DP Camps (the 2005 version of Levittown?)

as time goes by, and the city is revived, the voluntary evacuees (mostly
middle class people) will be allowed to return....and the forced evacuees
(mostly poverty class people) will become a more or less, semi permanent
DisplacedPersons class living in camps/villages for which they 'traded'
their old property rights for.

another NWO, slick-willy type of ploy, eh

take-it, or leave-it, cyberdude78
who knows what evils lurk in the hearts of men