USA owes Canada 5+ Billion Dollars.

It looks like Jim Peterson is coming West to talk about trade issues with local businesses. Now that the lumber talks are cancelled I guess he has some spare time. Stops on the trip are Vancouver, Surrey, Kamloops, Regina and Winnipeg.

I think it is very likely that this is a 'fact-finding' mission to discuss which products would be the subject of tarrifs. If this is done, they have to protect local businesses that import US goods and minimize the damage up here. I suppose it's a good sign that they are going to come west to consult, they usually just come for photo ops.

I also find it very interesting that Alberta isn't on the list of stops.

news.yahoo.com...

The federal government is considering slapping trade tariffs on U.S. exports in retaliation for American protectionism on softwood lumber.

The spectre of an escalating trade war is being raised by Industry Minister David Emerson and Finance Minister Ralph Goodale.

They say their colleague, Trade Minister Jim Peterson, is identifying sectors where Canada could impose tariffs and place maximum pressure on the U.S.

I want to see Canada turn on some heat with this issue.

It gets more interesting every day.

Martin says he won't call Bush on softwood until he consults Canadians

Paul Martin says it's not the right time yet to call U.S. President George W. Bush to voice Canadian anger over the softwood lumber spat.


The prime minister said Wednesday he will call Bush, but wants to prepare by consulting provincial governments and lumber industry officials.

The leaders have not spoken since the U.S. announced last week that it would ignore an international trade ruling condemning its duties on Canadian wood.

"I will be speaking to the president when the timing is appropriate," Martin said at a Liberal party summer retreat.

"It's very important as far as I'm concerned that that phone call take place when it is right for Canada to have it take place, and that will be quite soon."

Ah typical Paul Martin move, put off the event until everyone forgets about it. AKA Gomery, AKA, Missile Defense, AKA B.S.E, AKA everything....

Source

The liberals are really sucking up to the folks in Saskatchewan today btw..........

Yeah, I heard you guys were getting some more cash for those nice roads you have out there....

Energy and oil are off the table, apparently there is fear Ralph won't retire if they do that. In one of my local papers, the Vancouver Sun, they had some good articles about this subject. Their website is mostly subscriber only though, but they brought up some things I hadn't thought of. If there are Americans reading this please note that I am not advocating these ideas but sharing some possibilities.

One is that any sanctions we place need to be approved by the WTO. That could take a year so we need to look at other options in the meantime. Energy and oil is just a non-starter, obviously. It would contravene NAFTA and Alberta would scream far too loudly. Nobody wants Ralph to change his mind about retirement.

One possiblity that has been suggested is opening a Royal Commission on the proposed pipeline from Alaska, to determine if it is our best interests. For example, is it safe to have a big US project running through our country when terrorism is such a concern? This could be considered a matter of national security. We should be done in about 10 years.

We could also follow the US's lead and put a halt to all future US investment into our energy sector, based on concerns over national security. It worked for the US with the Chinese.

In other news International Paper, the founder of the US Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports, is planning on getting out of the timber business. This company was the one that initiated the very first complaint against us and they contribute a huge sum of money to the lobby's warchest. They own close to 7 million acres of forest. Right now they are reaping the benefits of the tarrifs. What happens when they get out of the lumber business and start concentrating on the core products, paper? I think their tune will change very quickly. Paper producers want the cheapest lumber they can get. Maybe a Canadian company could buy the forests?

I've also seen the talk of drilling in ANWR and it seems this is another treaty they are willing to break with us. Like we need more angry First Nations in northern BC. The Gwich’in rely on the caribou up there for their food source quite heavily. They run right through ANWR. We may not be able to stop it but we can put up a heck of a fight.

This is getting really interesting.






[edit on 25-8-2005 by Duzey]

0 Canada

Will the last non-Canadian to leave the thread please turn out the lights?

Sorry, just sayin'.

We don't get many threads dedicated to us on ATS so please forgive us if we seem a little overzealous. We like to make the most of them while we can.

I'm sorry America doesn't find us interesting.

Annexation Is Just One Of The Services We Offer

Originally posted by Duzey
I'm sorry America doesn't find us interesting.

On the contrary, you seemed to be having so much fun that I, being an American, couldn't resist crashing the party.

Now that America is on the scene, things are going to be a little different around here.

First, some rules...

Sorry, but it is kind of hard to get all excited about lumber. I mean, it's lumber.

As for the evil U.S. sticking it to the poor Canadians, the way it works is like this: we pay our people to screw your people, and you pay your people to screw our people.

Such is the tradition in trade negotiations the world over.

Please don't take it personally, it's strictly business.

And yes, we know we suck.




[edit on 8/25/2005 by Majic]

Originally posted by Majic
On the contrary, you seemed to be having so much fun that I, being an American, couldn't resist crashing the party.

Welcome to our little party then!

Sorry, but it is kind of hard to get all excited about lumber. I mean, it's lumber.

Hard and impossible are two very different things. Timber isn't inherently sexy; it's the politics I love.

As for the evil U.S. sticking it to the poor Canadians, the way it works is like this: we pay our people to screw your people, and you pay your people to screw our people.

To quote CD Howe while in Washington to resolve a shipping dispute - Gentlemen, we all must realize that neither side has any monopoly on sons of bitches.

The unfortunate thing is your guys are screwing you at the same time they are screwing us. And let's just say only one of us will be satisfied when it's over, and I don't think it's you or me.

And yes, we know we suck.

I probably wouldn't go quite that far. I would classify the US as an unreliable trading partner, not a Nation of Suckiness. That's why I keep trying to show how this hurts most Americans, aside of some big lumber companies. I think you can still be saved.

Archimedes' Crew

Originally posted by Duzey
The unfortunate thing is your guys are screwing you at the same time they are screwing us. And let's just say only one of us will be satisfied when it's over, and I don't think it's you or me.

In other words, it's business as usual.

The fact that our own people are screwing us could well be considered the most reliable and perennial complaint in American politics. Or anyone's politics, really.

To the best of my knowledge, the situation has never actually been much better, but tradition holds that we must always complain that it's getting worse.

Canadian or American, we're all human.

Product Unreliability

Originally posted by Duzey
I would classify the US as an unreliable trading partner, not a Nation of Suckiness. That's why I keep trying to show how this hurts most Americans, aside of some big lumber companies.

In other words, it's business as usual.

As for being unreliable, who's reliable? Where there's trade, there's trade disputes.

A more important feature is that we're your largest trading partner, and you are ours.

If we're also the most unreliable, damn the bad luck being next door to a neighbor like us.

Oh, and um, mind if we borrow a few billion to tide us over to the next election? It's just 'til payday, and we'll spring for pizza if you do (with Canadian bacon on it, of course).

And um, sorry our dog peed on your couch.

Minority Report

Originally posted by Duzey
I think you can still be saved.

I think you're in the minority, even in America*.





*Though I hope you're right.

Originally posted by Majic
To the best of my knowledge, the situation has never actually been much better, but tradition holds that we must always complain that it's getting worse.

I actually used the term 'the good old days' for the first time in my life the other day. Good lord, I'm turning into my mother. Somebody help me please!

But it is true in this case. American protectionism in the timber market has gotten progressively worse over the last 20 years. How many sanctions were levied on Canadian lumber before NAFTA? 0. What was our quota before NAFTA? Didn't have one.

I find the whole situation rather amusing because my country is often accused of being too socialist. Implementing quotas, levies and protecting non-competitive industries doesn't seem to embrace that marvelous thing called capitalism we hear about so often.

As for being unreliable, who's reliable? Where there's trade, there's trade disputes.

True. That is why we have mechanisms built into Agreements, for just such events. It's just a little galling when the party that insisted that it be done in one specific way or they would not sign decides that the Agreement only applies to the other party.

As for reliability, most Canadians take pride in the fact that we do take our word very seriously. When we commit to something, we stick it through. Diplomacy is something that countries who are not the USA must actively practice if they wish to do well by their citizens.

We may seem a little too idealistic for some people's tastes, but it works for us. I actually saw a lovely comment about my country the other day. Sure it might be from a communist, but I take my compliments where I can get them.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
I am defending the CCP because not everything it does is wrong, it is not evil it is pursueing a policy of realpolitik something that nations including the US have been doing for years, the CCP wishes to make China strong and is trying to help the people as best as it can without sacrificing its position in the world something that ALL countries except Canada does (canada puts people first).

We really do believe that people come before big business.

A more important feature is that we're your largest trading partner, and you are ours.

True and you probably always will be. But Canadians are a little tired of things having to be 'your way or the highway'. We are now looking to Asia. They may be communist dictators but at least they keep it to themselves, and pay their bills on time.

If we're also the most unreliable, damn the bad luck being next door to a neighbor like us.

That reminds me of an old joke. The punchline is 'Yes, but just wait until you see the neighbours I'm going to give them'.

Oh, and um, mind if we borrow a few billion to tide us over to the next election? It's just 'til payday, and we'll spring for pizza if you do (with Canadian bacon on it, of course).

Anything for a friend. Just take it out of the trust account you are holding our money in. We're not using it right now.

And um, sorry our dog peed on your couch.

I believe you meant chesterfield. Come on, if you are going to hang out with us on this thread you have to try to learn the lingo.

*Though I hope you're right.

Me too, but it doesn't happen nearly as often as I would like.



[edit on 25-8-2005 by Duzey]

This a first. The United States telling Canada to calm down!

Federal cabinet ministers remained defiant and unwavering Friday in their tough stand against Washington over the softwood lumber dispute, dismissing a call from the U.S. ambassador to stop their "emotional" comments.


Industry Minister David Emerson said David Wilkins comments, said in a newspaper interview, are hypocritical because they suggest Canada hasn't been serious about negotiating.

The minister said Canadians may need to start gearing up for a trade war with the United States.

Source

Trade Minister Jim Peterson said the ambassador should tell Washington "that they should not confuse emotion with commitment and determination by Canadians to ensure the NAFTA is respected."

Keep applying pressure to the wound.

It appears that Wilkins suffers from the same foot-in-mouth disease that Cellucci did.

If people are going to be sent here as ambassadors, they should get a clue about Canadians before they get here. This man, with his little comments, could be given the credit for starting one of the longest and most painful trade wars in the history of Canada and US trade. :shk:

I knew there was a reason I was slightly optimistic when Martin took over. The man knows business and has no intention of being the PM that got screwed by the US. He may be slimy and crooked but all our PM's have been like that in recent history.

"It's not emotional to state the facts," Martin said at the end of a day-long federal cabinet meeting in Winnipeg.

"The facts are when you sign an agreement you should live up to its terms and that's what we've said."

He said the Canadian reaction has been firm and demonstrates the government's commitment to deal with the dispute on the basis of the facts.

canoe.ca

This is the same CP article you linked Dulcimer, but with more of the story left intact. You might want to analyze the differences on your other thread.


[edit on 26-8-2005 by Duzey]

Originally posted by Darth Tinku
Even if we get the $5 billion from the US does it really matter? Its surprising that with the 2nd biggest Oil reverses in the world, we can’t even get a tax break in our own country, Americans actually pay less for Oil in terms of international dollars in there own country believe or not. All the tax increases on goods and cuts in public spending is really starting to show. I’m mean still I love it here, but come on. Its time Martin and the liberals get kicked out of office and let another party try to do a better job. Where’s all the money from the sponsorship scandal? $250 million stolen out of Canadian pockets that could have gone to schools, programs, etc. What a shame.

Agree totally. But you want to put the Conservatives there? That's no solution. The boys that gave us NAFTA and the GST to start out with? No thanks. I hate the Conservatives as much as I do the Liberals. Both are disgusting. And the NDP doesn't seem to have enough cojones for my liking. Nope, I'm going for a fresh face next time...a grassroots party to be sure, but one who at least wants to save Canada www.canadianactionparty.ca. Check them out!

Originally posted by Majic

Such is the tradition in trade negotiations the world over.

Please don't take it personally, it's strictly business.

And yes, we know we suck.

[edit on 8/25/2005 by Majic]

Hey Majic...welcome to our par-tay! Actually you would be correct in your last statement, the U.S. is particularly good at breaking the rules in these trade deals. Strictly business...I have my doubts on that.

Please partake of two interesting op/eds on NAFTA from this weekend's Toronto Star. I think Canadians have just about had enough of American shenanigans as concerns "free trade".



Thomas Walkom: NAFTA is dead, if it ever lived: U.S. never played by trade rules so Canada can live without it


Linda McQuaig says we should revert to global trade rules

As an aside, Ms. McQuaig wrote an interesting little book called "Its the crude, dude...War, Big Oil and the Fight for the Planet" An excellent read.

Trade Minister Jim Peterson says he's "disappointed" with a world trade panel ruling that favours the United States in the longrunning softwood lumber dispute.

But the minister says it won't change Ottawa's plans to keep fighting in the courts.

Peterson said Ottawa is also still considering retaliation against Washington with possible trade sanctions against U.S. exports to Canada.

In a setback to the Canadian case, the
World Trade Organization has ruled that the U.S. complied with international laws in imposing billions of dollars in duties on Canadian softwood.

news.yahoo.com...

This is messed up.

*sticks face in mud*

[edit on 30-8-2005 by Dulcimer]

If it's OK under the WTO than we should just let them keep the $5 billion and all the partners in NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. should formally recognize these treaties for what they are, toilet paper. That is the portion of it that has been collected since the new complaint in 2004, because the initial complaint that started the whole thing was overturned by the WTO. Funny, nobody bothered to do anything about that WTO ruling.

The U.S. International Trade Commission first issued its injury determination in 2002. Canada appealed to the WTO later that year and won.

The ITC then issued a second determination saying it still found injury, which Canada again appealed and which the WTO addresses in this latest report.

www.reuters.com

It appears there is absolutely no reason to enter trade agreements with the US because they are completely useless. Most Favoured Nation status, here we come. If the US only wants to play by WTO rules, I'm perfectly OK with that. $5 billion is a small price to pay for regaining control over our resources, oil and water in particular. We will no longer be obligated to anyone.

But it's not over yet at the WTO. The details of the ruling have not been made public and both of our countries have a long history of playing up the parts that favour their claim. Most of the WTO rulings on softwood have been about equal. They recognize some US points, they recognize some Canadian ones. There will be appeals once the final report is issued.

And if they are granted the right under WTO, even though NAFTA is supposed to supercede GATT, then there will be years of hearing over the level of duties. If history repeats, there will be an uneasy truce/agreement for a few years and then we will get to go through the whole thing again. This is the issue that will not end until stumpage fees are eliminated entirely and our forests are privately owned. That is something I don't think many Canadians want.

The route Canada needs to take is to develop our other markets with trade missions, which is what we are doing. Hello China, here we come.

The B.C. government announced its involvement Monday, touting a list of dramatic statistics to back its efforts: Asia-Pacific container traffic to North America will expand by 300 per cent in the next 15 years. A one-per-cent increase in container traffic through B.C. ports means $250 million per year and 4,000 new jobs for B.C.'s economy. By 2020, the port industry alone could grow to support 50,000 jobs, pumping $1.7 billion into the B.C. economy.

The delegation will be led by federal Transport Minister JeanLapierre and include 30 presidents and CEOs of port authorities, airlines, airports and railways across Canada. Among them are Larry Berg of the Vancouver Airport Authority, Montie Brewer of Air Canada, Garry Collins of Harmony Airlines, Gordon Houston of the Vancouver Port Authority, as well as other senior executives from Canadian Pacific Railway and Canadian National Railway.

The week-long trip beginning Sept. 1 will include meetings with Chinese government representatives, counterparts at Chinese ports and airports, and executives from major airlines like Air China, China Eastern Airlines, and China Southern Airlines.

Hmm, once the rebuilding comes after the katrina hurricane perhaps they will solve this issue a whole lot faster.

Originally posted by Dulcimer
Hmm, once the rebuilding comes after the katrina hurricane perhaps they will solve this issue a whole lot faster.

I dunno, Dulcimer...I've gor a real bad feeling about how this is developing.
The LOOP in the gulf could be out of action for some time (see Valhall's Op/Ed piece)...that's a third of the oil for the refineries having to go through other routes.
In the short term, the squeeze is going to hit hard and I doubt the Tar Sands are going to pull the grease out of the fire.

My guess is that everything is now on the back burner and Cheney is going to miss out on the duck shoot and golf. The Chinese president is still going to show and Martin is going to be all nervous because of how it's all going to 'look'.

I hope you're right, though...it'd be nice to get on good relations with America again. We don't need things to get worse at a time like this.

What do you think?

Canada should forgive the 5 Billion .... and donate that money to the US for the relief effort.....show's our LOVE for the US at the same time.....doesn't look like we are gona'a get it anywho......plus if Canada would forces this now...would look bad they are in a crisis now....so let's open our hearts and so our support and offer the money back....you guys' need it more

They have always been there for us

Y'r Canadian friend,
Sven

svenglezz...you do come up with some great ideas.

That would really shut the Canada critics down south up.

Yup...forgive the 5 Bil on the stipulation it goes toward the New Orleans 'displaced' people...for education and relocation.

Now...let's hope Paul Martin is reading this.

[edit on 3-9-2005 by masqua]